Savvy Belichick:Chandler Jones deal balances future and immediate need for trade partners

[The Crusher]

3 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

Pats need to get some tips from the Broncos and 49ers on how to circumvent the salary cap.

Topic!!  Stay on it.  It saves lives.  Wanna guess who's?

[Gas2No99]

3 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

Pats play chess while other teams are playing checkers.

Great post, you nailed it 100%.

Thanks for the compliment, but coming from you it still gives me a gross feeling all over similar to a regrettable drunken lay; showering with bleach won't get the scourge of disgust off no matter how hard I scrub. I still respect your football intelligence. 

[JiFtheOracle]

12 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

Congrats, dumbest post in the thread.

Pats will easily win their usual 12-14 games again next year.

It was the 3rd post...I mean, at least have some sample size.  Jeez. 

[chirorob]

I think it's a good move for both teams.   The Cards are up against it, trying to get more success, and that means they need a pass rush.

The Pats are going to lose some players, better a 2 now then a late 3 in 2 years. 

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, AFCEastFan said:

It would not.  And as Mickey Mouse as I think the Spygate and Deflategate "violations" were, I feel the exact opposite about salary cap cheating.  I think that is just about the dirtiest, most anti-competitive, thing that can be done in professional sports  I would be fully supportive of any penalty of any magnitude (lifetime bans, stripped titles, dozens of forfeited draft picks) if it turned out that they were paying Brady under the table. 

52 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

Pats need to get some tips from the Broncos and 49ers on how to circumvent the salary cap.

They don't need any tips from anyone. They invented cheating in the modern era.

Brady has been getting paid under the table since his second career contract, and along with Spygate (literally stealing opposing team's signs and playbooks), these are the two biggest franchise specific cheating scandals to hit any of the major 4 sports since I started following sports in my early teens in the late 90's. Sure, baseball had the steroid stuff, but that was league wide, and at some point, the competitive advantages leveled out, and the assault was more on the history and records and ethics of the game. The pats scandals, meanwhile, seriously compromised the integrity of the game, because they were playing with a different set of rules than anyone else. As TX said, the pats were playing chess while the rest of the league was playing checkers...except that playing chess while trying to play checkers is illegal.

Unfortunately, neither scandals have been appropriately penalized. To claim spygate was "mickey mouse" is to undervalue the incredible competitive advantage gained by having a step up on figuring out the opponent's mindset. And yes, I agree that circumventing the salary cap and under-paying possibly the best player in the sport and one of the top 5 players ever, should result in all stripped titles won after his rookie contract, if it's found to be true. Look at what paying a Drew Brees or a Peyton Manning or a Joe Flacco at market value does to teams. It cripples them. The fact that the pats have had some of the best cap management while having a top 5 player ever, seems dubious at best.

Deflategate, I agree may have been overblown, but it also might have been the appropriate amount of blown. Remember, the pats were down 14 against the Ravens in the 4Q and found a way to come back, and then the Ravens tipped the Colts off about it for the deflategate game. I'm not saying deflated balls were the sole reason for the big comeback, but it wouldn't shock me if even that slightest edge helped pull it off. 

[Gas2No99]

2 minutes ago, chirorob said:

I think it's a good move for both teams.   The Cards are up against it, trying to get more success, and that means they need a pass rush.

The Pats are going to lose some players, better a 2 now then a late 3 in 2 years. 

This guy gets it. 

[Beerfish]

When one looks at these things with a rational eye instead of a Patsfellating eye that the media have you can get an indication of value by flipping the trade around and thinking about what would be said.

If the Pats just acquired a great pass rusher coming off a 12.5 sack season for Shaq Mason and 2nd round pick they would be heralded as geniuses that are going for it and realizing the value of pass ushers in this league.  The contract angle would be totally down played because if teams want to keep a high priced guy they find a way. 

 

[mphtrilogy]

seems harder to find an edge pass rusher these days then a JAG guard.  We all know that 2nd rd picks are a crap shoot these days...

[JiFtheOracle]

10 hours ago, Dcat said:

Pats have Brady at $8 million per season and just reduced the cap hit to $1,000,000 with a restructure.  

Jets are salivating to get Fitzgerald at $8 million.   

Slight inequity there.  

Brady's willingness to take less money than comparable QBs (well under half) has been an enormous asset to NE cap management.

Would it really surprise you if somewhere, there weren't payments going from one of Kraft's holdings to a Brady surrogate?  

Lets not anoint Brady a savior here...the Pats are for a FACT paying him by circumventing the cap through his "body coach".  

They're the biggest pieces of sh*t and frauds in the history of Sports.  Hands down.  Cheating is institutional.  This should literally be a death sentences type of offense, but hey, its the Pats and Brady, so no big deal, just look the other way.

[chirorob]

12 minutes ago, mphtrilogy said:

seems harder to find an edge pass rusher these days then a JAG guard.  We all know that 2nd rd picks are a crap shoot these days...

No, it is.   Pass rushers are in short supply.

They were going to lose him after this year, so they let him go a year early for a 2, plus some good cap space to try to plug in another player.  I'm sure they'd like to keep everyone, but it doesn't work that way.

[PatsFanTX]

Thanks for the compliment, but coming from you it still gives me a gross feeling all over similar to a regrettable drunken lay; showering with bleach won't get the scourge of disgust off no matter how hard I scrub. I still respect your football intelligence. 

Look at the bright side.

At least I don't post weather reports.

[Dcat]

32 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

Thanks for the compliment, but coming from you it still gives me a gross feeling all over similar to a regrettable drunken lay; showering with bleach won't get the scourge of disgust off no matter how hard I scrub. I still respect your football intelligence. 

really.  There is new "aura" around you.  Better take another few showers, Gas.  

[AFCEastFan]

29 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

To claim spygate was "mickey mouse" is to undervalue the incredible competitive advantage gained by having a step up on figuring out the opponent's mindset.

If all we are talking about is videotaping signals, then I disagree.  Stealing signals is not illegal and the signals are made in public view of an entire stadium of people. If videotaping signals is really what it takes to figure out the opponent's mindset and gain an "incredible competitive advantage", then you can bet that the Patriots are still getting the same information today with binoculars, lip readers and note-takers instead of videotapes.  The process is just more labor-intensive now than it used to be.  

[greenwichjetfan]

12 minutes ago, chirorob said:

No, it is.   Pass rushers are in short supply.

They were going to lose him after this year, so they let him go a year early for a 2, plus some good cap space to try to plug in another player.  I'm sure they'd like to keep everyone, but it doesn't work that way.

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

[greenwichjetfan]

2 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

If all we are talking about is videotaping signals, then I disagree.  Stealing signals is not illegal and the signals are made in public view of an entire stadium of people. If videotaping signals is really what it takes to figure out the opponent's mindset and gain an "incredible competitive advantage", then you can bet that the Patriots are still getting the same information today with binoculars, lip readers and note-takers instead of videotapes.  The process is just more labor-intensive now than it used to be.  

So, you're completely dismissing the fact that along with taping signals, the spygate scandal also had elements of taping opponent walkthroughs and stealing playbooks? Those are not huge competitive advantages, if the accusations are true?

[Dcat]

2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

^This.  The strategy was sound.  The implementation and the pick/player they got has to be a huge disappointment. The player sucks and the pick is pretty low. Good idea with only a "meh" result.  There is no way that TX or any Pats fans should be doing backflips over this transaction.  

[mphtrilogy]

8 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

yep, this is what I think was the move..

 

But the O-line was really bad for NE, and I guess NE feel they can coach up a Long than find multiple players for the sieve line...

 

Happy to see Jones go tho, I think this makes them a tad weaker

[AFCEastFan]

3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

So, you're completely dismissing the fact that along with taping signals, the spygate scandal also had elements of taping opponent walkthroughs and stealing playbooks? Those are not huge competitive advantages, if the accusations are true?

Not sure what you mean by "had elements of".  If I write an article saying that Belichick may have kidnapped and tortured Tony Dungy in 2006 in order to get him to divulge the Colts' defensive plays, does that mean that Spygate also had elements of kidnapping and torture?  

[ghost_in_pads02]

17 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

They have to pay Hightower and Jamie Collins next year, trading Jones helps them with that. They get a 2nd rounder to draft a possible Jones replacement and picked up C.Long for a year as well (still have Jabaal sheard at DE as well. young and was pretty good for them) Plus it's only Mar, I'm sure nobodies roster is finalized at this point. They have gone to SBs with less talent at DE before. 

[greenwichjetfan]

8 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

Not sure what you mean by "had elements of".  If I write an article saying that Belichick may have kidnapped and tortured Tony Dungy in 2006 in order to get him to divulge the Colts' defensive plays, does that mean that Spygate also had elements of kidnapping and torture?  

I'm not getting into this. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm trying to have a legit discussion based on what was reported during the spygate scandal. If you wanna play the roll of insecure yet abrasive pats fan who's sole means of discussion are to dismiss and deflect, fine by me. Do it with others. 

[greenwichjetfan]

7 minutes ago, ghost_in_pads02 said:

They have to pay Hightower and Jamie Collins next year, trading Jones helps them with that. They get a 2nd rounder to draft a possible Jones replacement and picked up C.Long for a year as well (still have Jabaal sheard at DE as well. young and was pretty good for them) Plus it's only Mar, I'm sure nobodies roster is finalized at this point. They have gone to SBs with less talent at DE before. 

Not sure why you quoted me, since nothing in your post relates to nothing in my post. I didn't need you to list out what the pats did. I already saw what they did, and made my post analyzing it. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. Have fun continuing to spin it.

Here, I'll break it down for you so that maybe you can understand it: While in theory it made some sense for the pats to get rid of a scarce resource such as their star pass rusher entering his prime, the implementation of the theory sucked. And, thinking about it a little more, maybe the theory itself sucked- since star, game changing pass rushers entering their prime don't exactly grow on trees, and are a top 5 role in terms of importance to a football team. 

[PFSIKH]

14 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

If all we are talking about is videotaping signals, then I disagree.  Stealing signals is not illegal and the signals are made in public view of an entire stadium of people. If videotaping signals is really what it takes to figure out the opponent's mindset and gain an "incredible competitive advantage", then you can bet that the Patriots are still getting the same information today with binoculars, lip readers and note-takers instead of videotapes.  The process is just more labor-intensive now than it used to be.  

Wooo there guy...stop making sense.

12 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

Jones was a good to very good player, but dominant?  No.

And they did not move up 10-12 spots, it is more like 32 spots as comp draft pick start at the end of the third.  Math it is a bitch.

They get a 2nd rounder this year to contribute (unless Beli drafts a corner or wide receiver in the second) in lieu of waiting to essentially get a 4th rounder in 2018 draft.

[ghost_in_pads02]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

 

Here, I'll break it down for you so that maybe you can understand it: While in theory it made some sense for the pats to get rid of a scarce resource such as their star pass rusher entering his prime, the implementation of the theory sucked. And, thinking about it a little more, maybe the theory itself sucked- since star, game changing pass rushers entering their prime don't exactly grow on trees, and are a top 5 role in terms of importance to a football team.

U just try to be civil to some posters and some posters just wanna be a d**ks, no problem continue on being a d**k... yes if you wanna look at it the way you are cool. But the theory doesn't work for a team like the patriots and look at history to why that is...

 

plus Jones did not play as much in the playoffs. J. Sheard got more snaps then him..but as you were.

[AFCEastFan]

21 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I'm not getting into this. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm trying to have a legit discussion based on what was reported during the spygate scandal. If you wanna play the roll of insecure yet abrasive pats fan who's sole means of discussion are to dismiss and deflect, fine by me. Do it with others. 

You asked me a question to which you already knew answer and then you don't like how I answered?  I'll answer the question directly, then:  Yes, as I think the other allegations have about as much proof as the one I just made up.  

Would I be surprised if at least some of the other stuff happened?  Absolutely not, but those allegations range widely between the laughably minor to the shockingly reprehensible and none of us really has any idea (other than our own speculation and biases) where on the spectrum what actually happened falls.  

[greenwichjetfan]

7 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Wooo there guy...stop making sense.

Jones was a good to very good player, but dominant?  No.

And they did not move up 10-12 spots, it is more like 32 spots as comp draft pick start at the end of the third.  Math it is a bitch.

They get a 2nd rounder this year to contribute (unless Beli drafts a corner or wide receiver in the second) in lieu of waiting to essentially get a 4th rounder in 2018 draft.

Thanks, I didn't know how comps worked. But yea, I guess math is a bitch, considering you're trying to take credit for a 2nd rounder even though it's literally 1 pick away from being a 3rd, and then talking about getting "essentially" a 4th rounder.

Keep spinning away this sh*t ****ed move.

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

You asked me a question to which you already knew answer and then you don't like how I answered?  I'll answer the question directly, then:  Yes, as I think the other allegations have about as much proof as the one I just made up.  

Would I be surprised if at least some of the other stuff happened?  Absolutely not, but those allegations range widely between the laughably minor to the shockingly reprehensible and none of us really have any idea (other than our own speculation and biases) where on the spectrum what actually happened falls.  

Nah, you called spygate "mickey mouse" and implied that the pats didn't actually gain much at all from it if it were true. I asked you simply and directly, whether you thought taping signals, stealing playbooks, and recording walkthroughs (the three things directly mentioned in the spygate scandal) didn't give the pats a significant competitive advantage. You responded, as all insecure pats fans do, to the one thing in which you had a point: that taping signals is not illegal, and then dismissed the rest and deflected with this little cutey: "Not sure what you mean by "had elements of".  If I write an article saying that Belichick may have kidnapped and tortured Tony Dungy in 2006 in order to get him to divulge the Colts' defensive plays, does that mean that Spygate also had elements of kidnapping and torture?"

So no, I didn't like how you responded. 

[AFCEastFan]

7 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Nah, you called spygate "mickey mouse" and implied that the pats didn't actually gain much at all from it if it were true. I asked you simply and directly, whether you thought taping signals, stealing playbooks, and recording walkthroughs (the three things directly mentioned in the spygate scandal) didn't give the pats a significant competitive advantage. You responded, as all insecure pats fans do, to the one thing in which you had a point: that taping signals is not illegal, and then dismissed the rest and deflected with this little cutey: "Not sure what you mean by "had elements of".  If I write an article saying that Belichick may have kidnapped and tortured Tony Dungy in 2006 in order to get him to divulge the Colts' defensive plays, does that mean that Spygate also had elements of kidnapping and torture?"

So no, I didn't like how you responded. 

That's too bad because I LOVE when you pull made up allegations out of Bryan O'Leary's book and then ask me to opine on them as if they were fact.  Whether you disguise that with "cutey" phrases like "had elements of" and "directly mentioned" doesn't help separate facts from what you simply think (or hope) is true.  

[greenwichjetfan]

17 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

That's too bad because I LOVE when you pull made up allegations out of Bryan O'Leary's book and then ask me to opine on them as if they were fact.  Whether you disguise that with "cutey" phrases like "had elements of" and "directly mentioned" doesn't help separate facts from what you simply think (or hope) is true.  

So, the taping signals part is a made up allegation yet you responded to it? Or is it that only that part is true but the rest which would actually hurt the pats organization is made up? Which convenient spin would you like to put to this one?

Also, you still haven't answered my simple and direct question yet. 

As I said earlier, this is getting tiresome, so I'll just answer for you since I already know the answer, as does every other person who knows anything about competition. Getting your hands on your opponent's mindset through a playbook or a walkthrough or a signal is a huge competitve advantage. For you to call it "mickey mouse" shows just how much you feel the need to dismiss and deflect from it. Talk about hoping for something...

[Savage69]

51 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Wooo there guy...stop making sense.

Jones was a good to very good player, but dominant?  No.

And they did not move up 10-12 spots, it is more like 32 spots as comp draft pick start at the end of the third.  Math it is a bitch.

They get a 2nd rounder this year to contribute (unless Beli drafts a corner or wide receiver in the second) in lieu of waiting to essentially get a 4th rounder in 2018 draft.

If he was a Jet he would be on a fast track to the HOF...LOL

[AFCEastFan]

17 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

So, the taping signals part is a made up allegation yet you responded to it? Or is it that only that part is true but the rest which would actually hurt the pats organization is made up? Which convenient spin would you like to put to this one?

Also, you still haven't answered my simple and direct question yet. 

As I said earlier, this is getting tiresome, so I'll just answer for you since I already know the answer, as does every other person who knows anything about competition. Getting your hands on your opponent's mindset through a playbook or a walkthrough or a signal is a huge competitve advantage. For you to call it "mickey mouse" shows just how much you feel the need to dismiss and deflect from it. Talk about hoping for something...

Except that the only thing we agree that the Patriots did in your list of horribles is steal signals.  Which is itself not illegal (although the means by which they stole them certainly is).  And the signals are visible to the public.  That is where the "Mickey Mouse" comment comes from.  

I agree that this is getting tiresome.  Must be a slow work day for both of us.  

[greenwichjetfan]

Just now, AFCEastFan said:

Except that the only thing we agree that the Patriots did in your list of horribles is steal signals.  Which is itself not illegal (although the means by which they stole them certainly is).  And the signals are visible to the public.  That is where the "Mickey Mouse" comment comes from.  

I agree that this is getting tiresome.  Must be a slow work day for both of us.  

Slow day made particularly more slow because I decided that after the team happy hour last evening, it only made sense to keep going and go drinking with non-work friends till 11pm on an empty stomach. 

Hoooray beer! 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The logic is sound, but the return they got sucks. That "2" is one pick away from being a 3. And they picked up a huge bust prospect with a serious history of injuries- specifically to his knees. 

Seeing that, I would have rather just gotten him for one more year while I try to make another run at it (I mean, they did make it to the AFCCG for god's sake) before the window closes (brady ain't gettin younger), and then been ok with losing him and getting my 3rd round comp pick. The one more year of his dominant pass rush would have made up for whatever the 10 or 12 spot's I'd drop between the acquired "2" and next yr's comp 3. 

That's a fair argument right back.  I don't think the guard is the key, if he can turn it around, good for him, but that's more a bonus.

[PFSIKH]

6 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Thanks, I didn't know how comps worked. But yea, I guess math is a bitch, considering you're trying to take credit for a 2nd rounder even though it's literally 1 pick away from being a 3rd, and then talking about getting "essentially" a 4th rounder.

Keep spinning away this sh*t ****ed move.

How is it spinning?

If this was Brady's last year, then keeping Jones would have been the right move regardless of the return, but Brady has four more years. They still need to focus on the next few years they have him.

The Patriots have 5 players that produced at a high level last year (Hightower, Collins, Butler, Sheard and Ryan) and several others (Ninkovich, Slater and Vollmer) that are good.

Outside of Ninvovich and maybe SLater, they all want to be paid.  Especially, that first group.  I hope  they can keep four of the players, but realistically that is going to be hard.

Keeping Jones would not guarantee the Patriots the title.  The only guarantee the Patriots had was there is no way in hell they would be giving Jones 50 million up front and 17 million per. 

Now, they have a player that will be entering his second year in place of one of the names above.

Hopefully, for Patriot Nation, Bill uses the pick and channels one of his good second round selections and not a Tavon Wilson pick.

[RutgersJetFan]

17 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Hopefully, for Patriot Nation, Bill uses the pick and channels one of his good second round selections and not a Tavon Wilson pick.

Hopefully, for Jet Nation, Bill gets murdered by the Killer Klowns from Outer Space.

[SenorGato]

Why would the Pats give up their top sack guy? Sacks are like the most important aspect of defense in foozeball, the only way a defensive player can stop or even limit the pass and the only reason to have a DL. Pats are coming apart.