Question for the Board

[phill1c]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Ah yes... The longstanding Jets Fan delusion that if we only had a better coach, we'd be great.

lol... I don't like Bowles, per say, but you wish Bowles was the biggest problem with this team...

The team is at the bottom of most rankings on all three sides of the ball and somehow Jets fans are delusional in thinking that better coaching could make a significant difference?

You're delusional and I don't think it's a new thing either.

Considering that the last HC with experience the Jets employed was Bill Parcells, it's not a farfetched opinion, is it?

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Great point.  My guess is you could look at virtually any Jet draft in the past decade and come to the same conclusion. 

The only problem with trading that many picks is you need to sign more expensive free agents to fill out the roster.

[FidelioJet]

Just now, gEYno said:

The only problem with trading that many picks is you need to sign more expensive free agents to fill out the roster.

I don't disagree and it carries substantial risk -  but if you hit you have 15 years to build around that QB.

[phill1c]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

I don't disagree and it carries substantial risk -  but if you hit you have 15 years to build around that QB.

Way less if your OL sucks.

All it takes is a couple of seasons of sustained hits to ruin a "franchise" QB.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

The team is at the bottom of most rankings on all three sides of the ball and somehow Jets fans are delusional in thinking that better coaching could make a significant difference?

You're delusional and I don't think it's a new thing.

See, we like to believe that a new coach would make it all better.  Because that's an easy fix... Fire him, someone new comes in, and that person saves the day.  What's really hard to stomach is that the roster sucks.  It sucks badly.  And that's a multi-player, multi-year fix.  That's hard, hence the delusion.

Jets fans don't want to learn.  We fired Hacket, it didn't work.  We fired (traded) Herm, it didn't work.  We fired Mangini, it didn't work.  We fired Schotty, it didn't work.  We fired Rex, it didn't work.  Suddenly, we're going to fire Bowles and this time, this time it's going to work.  Again, I'm not even saying these firing were bad decisions, but if you want to see why the team sucks, look at our drafts over the last 5 years, and see how many players are still on the Jets, and how many are out of the league.  We suck because our talent is very poor.

[FidelioJet]

Just now, phill1c said:

Way less if your OL sucks.

All it takes is a couple of seasons of sustained hits to ruin a "franchise" QB.

I would agree here as well...your top priority after the QB is to solidify the OL and get yourself a RB.  So you quickly put heavy resources into the OL and running game.

The Jets did it right with Sanchez - but they eventually let the O-line deteriorate (Tanny's biggest mistake-IMO) and Sanchez never progressed (in fact he regressed)

[phill1c]

Just now, gEYno said:

See, we like to believe that a new coach would make it all better.  Because that's an easy fix... Fire him, someone new comes in, and that person saves the day.  What's really hard to stomach is that the roster sucks.  It sucks badly.  And that's a multi-player, multi-year fix.  That's hard, hence the delusion.

Jets fans don't want to learn.  We fired Hacket, it didn't work.  We fired (traded) Herm, it didn't work.  We fired Mangini, it didn't work.  We fired Schotty, it didn't work.  We fired Rex, it didn't work.  Suddenly, we're going to fire Bowles and this time, this time it's going to work.  Again, I'm not even saying these firing were bad decisions, but if you want to see why the team sucks, look at our drafts over the last 5 years, and see how many players are still on the Jets, and how many are out of the league.  We suck because our talent is very poor.

Well thanks for bursting that bubble.

I was ok with keeping Bowles for another year. But, really, what is there to keep? I just don't see very much of a reason to.

I thought the talent was better this year than last. But, I have to admit, it was really, really bad before that. And drafting a DL and a developmental QB with the first two picks really didn't change that. and I think the proof of the validity of your opinion is special teams, still among the worst in football.

Very astute opinion.

[JETSfaninNE]

4 hours ago, munchmemory said:

If I knew what I knew today, I'd have drafted Prescott and Elliott.  But to answer your question:  Yes.

But first you would have to go back several more drafts and build up the best offensive line since early 90s cowboys.  But yeah I'm starting to buy what Dallas is selling.  If we had invested half of our 1st rounders on offensive line talent, we could have plug and played Prescott and Elliot too.  Look at how Dallas brought along Dak, they didn't ask him to do much in the first several weeks of the season, just manage the game and now he's out there looking like a 10 year vet probably heading to a 1st year superbowl.

[phill1c]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I would agree here as well...your top priority after the QB is to solidify the OL and get yourself a RB.  So you quickly put heavy resources into the OL and running game.

The Jets did it right with Sanchez - but they eventually let the O-line deteriorate (Tanny's biggest mistake-IMO) and Sanchez never progressed (in fact he regressed)

You don't need a top-five QB to win. And having one doesn't guarantee winning. You have to have an offense with weapons and an OL that can support those weapons. QB is really just another weapon. Without an OL, it all goes to sh*t. That has to be the first priority.

And, please, we have to get away from the notion of defense first and foremost. Playing with a lead really changes how good you have to be on defense.

[phill1c]

Just now, JETSfaninNE said:

But first you would have to go back several more drafts and build up the best offensive line since early 90s cowboys.  But yeah I'm starting to buy what Dallas is selling.  If we had invested half of our 1st rounders on offensive line talent, we could have plug and played Prescott and Elliot too.  Look at how Dallas brought along Dak, they didn't ask him to do much in the first several weeks of the season, just manage the game and now he's out there looking like a 10 year vet probably heading to a 1st year superbowl.

DING DING F8CKING DING!!

And it's not just what Dallas is selling, I'm selling it too.

[JETSfaninNE]

Just now, phill1c said:

DING DING F8CKING DING!!

And it's not just what Dallas is selling, I'm selling it too.

I meant it more as I'm finding Dallas to be my go to team to watch quality football on football days lol  Finding them very exciting to watch   But you and I are definitely on the same page on building the team!

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

You don't need a top-five QB to win. And having one doesn't guarantee winning. You have to have an offense with weapons and an OL that can support those weapons. QB is really just another weapon. Without an OL, it all goes to sh*t. That has to be the first priority.

And, please, we have to get away from the notion of defense first and foremost. Playing with a lead really changes how good you have to be on defense.

While you don't need a top 5 QB to win, it will make you competitive year in and year out...With that said, if I didn't have a QB and when I'm not drafting one I would draft o-line early and often and spend a large portion of your resources on o-line.

[ASH1962]

4 hours ago, phill1c said:

NO.

Just because someone does well in another system doesn't mean that they will replicate that performance in ours.

Geez, you think anyone can play well with two suck-@ss Tackles, no TE and an old and/or injury prone RB?

Great point. Bowltite is a f'ing idiot so he would probably have not played Wentz until 2050 anyway.

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, JETSfaninNE said:

I meant it more as I'm finding Dallas to be my go to team to watch quality football on football days lol  Finding them very exciting to watch   But you and I are definitely on the same page on building the team!

I can't agree more. watching a team execute on offense is way more interesting than watching 10-0 boreball. That's why I hate Fitzpatrick, he'll never lead a potent offense for the Jets. Not ALL his fault, but...

[phill1c]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

While you don't need a top 5 QB to win, it will make you competitive year in and year out...With that said, if I didn't have a QB and when I'm not drafting one I would draft o-line early and often and spend a large portion of your resources on o-line.

Um, Andrew Luck...'nuff said.

The Jets are competitive with Fitzpatrick, if you believe Todd Bowles.

Competitive for what? You can't win much with a QB and dreck. And, again, there are QBs who weren't drafted high (Tom Brady, Russell Wilson) who excel.

You have to have a TEAM.

[ZachEY]

17 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Well thanks for bursting that bubble.

I was ok with keeping Bowles for another year. But, really, what is there to keep? I just don't see very much of a reason to.

I thought the talent was better this year than last. But, I have to admit, it was really, really bad before that. And drafting a DL and a developmental QB with the first two picks really didn't change that. and I think the proof of the validity of your opinion is special teams, still among the worst in football.

Very astute opinion.

Haha... Sorry!

I'm not a huge fan of Bowles, but mostly for being too conservative at times, especially when the season is out of reach.  Fire him, don't fire him, I don't see it making a huge difference unless you bring in a big name with a tremendous resume.

Talent-wise, I just don't see it:

OL: Not horrible, but just not all that good, and we've been without Mangold.

RB: Better, but not meaningfully

WR: A wash, as Enunwa has taken a step forward, but Decker is out.  This is one of the few units to feel good about.

QB: Obvious a big letdown from Fitz, and I really don't have any faith in Petty/Hackenberg, especially Hack.

DL: Big disappointment, Mo's disappearing act plays a role.  You gotta like Williams, but not a pure pass-rusher, so we don't see the big numbers.  We also suffer from having too much talent at the same position here creating a log-jam.

LB: We got a little younger and faster, but Jenkins and Lee are still not there yet, and Harris is a year older, and if possible, a year slower.  Maudlin and Henderson are nice pieces, but nothing more than pieces.

DB: Biggest problem on this team, which is frustrating because it's also one of the most heavily invested areas, draft pick and money wise.  Revis stinks and he quit, we have no #2 CB, Skrine gets flagged more than anyone I can remember.  Gilchrist is expensive and not worth the money, and Pryor regressed a bit after a stronger 2nd year.

I've said here before, I like two players on this team, Williams and Enunwa... That's pretty much it for me.

[RSJ]

50 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

Vinny was a Pro Bowler in 1996 as a Raven throwing for 33 tds and 4177 yds

He was cut and no one wanted him. 96 Ravens had a nice OL too btw.

[RSJ]

32 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I would agree here as well...your top priority after the QB is to solidify the OL and get yourself a RB.  So you quickly put heavy resources into the OL and running game.

The Jets did it right with Sanchez - but they eventually let the O-line deteriorate (Tanny's biggest mistake-IMO) and Sanchez never progressed (in fact he regressed)

I dont want to turn this into a Sanchez discussion - but I dont know if it's fair to say he regressed. I don't think he was ever that good. Which shows you that you take even a bad QB and put him behind a good OL with a good running game and go places. I think Sanchez is a perfect case study. The OL deteriorated, not Sanchez. He was always limited.

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, RSJ said:

I dont want to turn this into a Sanchez discussion - but I dont know if it's fair to say he regressed. I don't think he was ever that good. Which shows you that you take even a bad QB and put him behind a good OL with a good running game and go places. I think Sanchez is a perfect case study. The OL deteriorated, not Sanchez. He was always limited.

Yes, maybe it's better to say Sanchez never progressed and when the o-line deteriorated and he was asked to do more he couldn't.  And agree, not to make it about Sanchez - but I think the point of bringing him up as an example is to say you could have short lived success with limited QB play as long as you have a quality defense and top 3 o-line...but it's tough to keep 5 high priced guys (OL) on the roster for very long...

In order to have sustained success you need to find a QB that is capable of carrying the team at times.

[JohnnyLV]

Hack could still be the best QB from this draft. he has a low floor, but his ceiling is best QB in the NFL  and I am still high on Petty if he ever gets a chance

[RSJ]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, maybe it's better to say Sanchez never progressed and when the o-line deteriorated and he was asked to do more he couldn't.  And agree, not to make it about Sanchez - but I think the point of bringing him up as an example is to say you could have short lived success with limited QB play as long as you have a quality defense and top 3 o-line...but it's tough to keep 5 high priced guys (OL) on the roster for very long...

In order to have sustained success you need to find a QB that is capable of carrying the team at times.

Yes we agree. You can't have someone quite as bad as Sanchez and I agree you need at least decent QB play. But just to put this in perspective, there isn't a coaching staff in the league that would ever start Sanchez over Fitz, Petty or even maybe Hack. He was THAT limited. All I am saying is that the Jets are not finding that franchise QB this year so why not build a stud OL and draft another QB in rounds 2-5. Keep Fitz on the cheap or bring in another vet and lets see what happens.

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

Hack could still be the best QB from this draft. he has a low floor, but his ceiling is best QB in the NFL  and I am still high on Petty if he ever gets a chance

Hack would be a top 3 pick if he stayed in school. Thats why Mac is a genius and the Jets reached for him.

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, RSJ said:

Yes we agree. You can't have someone quite as bad as Sanchez and I agree you need at least decent QB play. But just to put this in perspective, there isn't a coaching staff in the league that would ever start Sanchez over Fitz, Petty or even maybe Hack. He was THAT limited. All I am saying is that the Jets are not finding that franchise QB this year so why not build a stud OL and draft another QB in rounds 2-5. Keep Fitz on the cheap or bring in another vet and lets see what happens.

I think we're close - draft OL early and often makes total sense...except I do believe if you think there's a franchise type QB on the board you have to do whatever you can to get him.  If there isn't then you should absolutely go OL.

[SoFlaJets]

1 hour ago, Tinstar said:

You know the answer to that already . It's a part of our DNA . You can't change anymore than you can change who you are . We have only 1 chance and that's to hope that our kids don't inherit this affliction .

I have apologized to my wife my son and my daughter and to her kids for infecting them all with this green virus

[RSJ]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think we're close - draft OL early and often makes total sense...except I do believe if you think there's a franchise type QB on the board you have to do whatever you can to get him.  If there isn't then you should absolutely go OL.

Maybe someone will pop up - but I believe our best chance is Hack developing. He was the number one overall pick this year. Coming out of HS he was that once every 10 years QB. Maybe someone will pop up - but this years class looks like the worst I have ever seen from what I am reading.

 

We agree on the OL also. Early and often unless you get a freak edge rusher fall to your lap or a once every 10 years CB. 

[heymangold]

17 hours ago, phill1c said:

So, you're trading your whole draft for a 5-5 QB?

LOL

You guys crack me up...

What happened to the Petty love affair? That ONE start soured you?

i never hopped on the petty band wagon - but wentz has still shown more ability then him.  i also never said i'd trade my entire draft for him.

[CrazyCarl40]

15 hours ago, phill1c said:

You don't need a top-five QB to win. And having one doesn't guarantee winning. You have to have an offense with weapons and an OL that can support those weapons. QB is really just another weapon. Without an OL, it all goes to sh*t. That has to be the first priority.

And, please, we have to get away from the notion of defense first and foremost. Playing with a lead really changes how good you have to be on defense.

Somebody should tell our defense that. They've squandered plenty of 4th quarter leads this year. 

15 hours ago, phill1c said:

I can't agree more. watching a team execute on offense is way more interesting than watching 10-0 boreball. That's why I hate Fitzpatrick, he'll never lead a potent offense for the Jets. Not ALL his fault, but...

Jets were 11th in points per game last season. Not great, but certainly potent. Difference this year has been zero help from the other side of the ball and an inconsistent running game. 

[jamesr]

15 hours ago, phill1c said:

Well thanks for bursting that bubble.

I was ok with keeping Bowles for another year. But, really, what is there to keep? I just don't see very much of a reason to.

I thought the talent was better this year than last. But, I have to admit, it was really, really bad before that. And drafting a DL and a developmental QB with the first two picks really didn't change that. and I think the proof of the validity of your opinion is special teams, still among the worst in football.

Very astute opinion.

Things that went downhill this year vs. last year :

1. QB - same guy as last year, but this year he has regressed, sharply
2. CB - same #1 guy as last year, but this year he has regressed, sharply. No investment in replacing the previous #2 CB, hampered by the two washouts from previous drafts
3. S - same guys as last year, but this year they have both regressed. Maybe not sharply, but bad enough to be noticeable. Pryor being played away from his strengths hasn't helped
4. DL - mostly same guys as last year, but Mo has regressed, sharply (injury / contract / motivation / who knows). SR being played out of position. Some here say Snacks is missed, I disagree, we still stop the run as well as we need to without him

So in a pass first league, we have taken big backwards steps at : passing, defending the pass, rushing the passer.

The misconception is that we were starting off this year as a 10-6 team. 2 years ago we were 4-12; this year we look like being 4-12 again. More likely that last year's success, rather than this year's suckiitude, is the anomaly. However, this can cut both ways - being a 4-12 team does not mean we can't be a 10-6 team next year. But if we want to be so, we need to address the above issues somehow. Find a QB. Find a secondary. Find a pass rush. Personally i don't see us achieving more than one of these in the space of one year.

 

[Villain The Foe]

20 hours ago, Tinstar said:

Knowing what you know today, would you have traded your entire draft in 2016  for a shot at Carson Wentz  ?

 

I would have : 

Not when you could have gotten Dak Prescott in the 2nd round instead of a QB that cant even play in a preseason game or dress as a back up. 

I've never been a fan of trading picks just to move up. I've been a fan of trading picks to acquire more though. 

[phill1c]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Somebody should tell our defense that. They've squandered plenty of 4th quarter leads this year. 

Jets were 11th in points per game last season. Not great, but certainly potent. Difference this year has been zero help from the other side of the ball and an inconsistent running game. 

No, the difference is the fact that the Jets are No. 1 in INTs and DEAD LAST in 2 minute offense. and score virtually no points in the 3rd quarter.

Do you actually do any research or just say what you want to be true?

[phill1c]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Not when you could have gotten Dak Prescott in the 2nd round instead of a QB that cant even play in a preseason game or dress as a back up. 

I've never been a fan of trading picks just to move up. I've been a fan of trading picks to acquire more though. 

Just because Todd Bowles says he can't play doesn't mean he can't play. I mean, Todd Bowles thinks Fitzpatrick gives him the best chance at winning even though he's thrown the most INTs in the league. Never mind that his defense also sucks balls.

Todd Bowles is a clown, a sad clown.

[ZachEY]

16 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Hack could still be the best QB from this draft. he has a low floor, but his ceiling is best QB in the NFL  and I am still high on Petty if he ever gets a chance

lawl

16 hours ago, RSJ said:

Hack would be a top 3 pick if he stayed in school. Thats why Mac is a genius and the Jets reached for him.

lawl x2

[CrazyCarl40]

1 minute ago, phill1c said:

No, the difference is the fact that the Jets are No. 1 in INTs and DEAD LAST in 2 minute offense. and score virtually no points in the 3rd quarter.

Do you actually do any research or just say what you want to be true?

Sounds like no points in the 3rd quarter is a halftime coaching adjustments thing.

There are plenty of differences from this year to last. The biggest is that the Jets defense is giving up nearly a touchdown more a game this year than last. With a limited offense and a rushing game that is not as good as last years, that's hard to overcome. 

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Sounds like no points in the 3rd quarter is a halftime coaching adjustments thing.

There are plenty of differences from this year to last. The biggest is that the Jets defense is giving up nearly a touchdown more a game this year than last. With a limited offense and a rushing game that is not as good as last years, that's hard to overcome. 

Sounds like no points in the 3rd quarter is a sh!tty QB thing. Just like all those INTs and the turnovers in crunch time.

But, hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[CrazyCarl40]

4 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Sounds like no points in the 3rd quarter is a sh!tty QB thing. Just like all those INTs and the turnovers in crunch time.

But, hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Clearly everyone is entitled to an opinion. The overall theme here is that, for the most part, Bowles and company have a hard time making half time adjustments on both sides of the ball. That much is obvious to anyone with any kind of football common sense who watches the games.