Looking at Macc's 2 drafts.

[UnitedWhofans]

51 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Watkins, Dez, Hopkins, Allen Robinson and others torched him last season. Please stop. Watch the games. 

Elite receivers. Not young JAGs

[CrazyCarl40]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Elite receivers. Not young JAGs

Do you have a point here? And I don't mean in this post but in this message board or life in general? Good lord. Why does it matter who burned Revis last season? The writing was on the wall. I'm sorry you can't read it or even see it. 

[UnitedWhofans]

30 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Better analogy is, if you're a woman who married a guy who, it later turns out, is willing to beat you for not bearing him a manchild, then you have no right to criticize him because you could have chosen somebody else. The natural extension of this is that divorce should be outlawed, and every judge would say, "Hey, you married each other, now stick together for 50 years even if it was a bad decision, you're both miserable, and one of you is actually in harm's way."

That's just brilliant.

Love is a emotional illogical process. The philosophy does not apply

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, CrazyCarl40 said:

Do you have a point here? And I don't mean in this post but in this message board or life in general? Good lord. Why does it matter who burned Revis last season? The writing was on the wall. I'm sorry you can't read it or even see it. 

The point is Revis was better last year than this year. And they won games. So by logic, the deal was good in the first year. Second year, it went to hell

[CrazyCarl40]

4 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The point is Revis was better last year than this year. And they won games. So by logic, the deal was good in the first year. Second year, it went to hell

Being kind of bad versus being really bad? That's your argument? The deal was never good. Just like the Wilk deal is likely to be never good. It's all sunk cost. Just like this discussion of which I am over. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, CrazyCarl40 said:

Being kind of bad versus being really bad? That's your argument? The deal was never good. Just like the Wilk deal is likely to be never good. It's all sunk cost. Just like this discussion of which I am over. 

But few complained about it at the time. Which brings me back to my philosophy of unfair hindsight criticism. And just because you disagree with it doesn't mean there has to be nastiness. 

Meat eaters don't shame vegetarians in direct conversation with them

[bostonmajet]

21 hours ago, gEYno said:

Are the Jets better off today than two years ago today?

No?

Grade is an F.

First, in some ways we are better off - WR and depth, for example.

But, here is the important point - 2 years ago we had players that were at the end of the career, so while building through the draft the age of the Jets roster has made the team erode more. For example, Pace was too old to play, Brick retired (if had he stayed he would have eroded), Mangold got older, slower, and more injury prone. So we lost 40% of the OL because of aging/retirement. We lost our starting OLB (Pace). Harris while still a tackler got older and slower.

Had, Idzik stayed where would the team be now? That is the main issue. Mac replaced some of the missing parts (WR), but also had to replace existing parts that have aged out, Brick, Pace, etc. So the target was moving. Had Mac inherited a younger team, I think we would be much better. Unfortunately, the team aged badly while he was trying to build it.

[Sperm Edwards]

48 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

MM is a good GM! There are plenty of teams that would like to have him on their side.

The draft is only one aspect to look at here when judging him.

Look at the contracts he was able to get signed. He left himself in a good position to dump these players and come back with a decent amount of cash to fill a few holes or build some depth this offseason... Don't underestimate that part of being a GM! No GM is going to go draft 14 probowlers in their first 2 years! You want a GM who can do it all, and so far MM has been solid. 

Also. Writing off last years picks is iffy... I think Lee is going to have a big 2nd year. He just needs to slow himself down a little bit... He can learn how to do that. 

Yeah, he really isn't a good GM. He's not even good enough to call just OK. If he was fired today there's no justification to believe a single NFL team would then hire him in the same capacity.

His veteran acquisitions are even worse than his draft picks on balance. It takes no stroke of genius to overpay for 30+ yr old veterans on their final NFL contracts, and then whiff on most such players still in their 20s (Skrine, Gilchrist, Jenkins).

List all the veterans he brought in, and then check off which ones now look smart and which already look shortsighted in (or before) their 2nd year here. Players with a * cost draft picks:

Marshall*, Revis, Mo*, Skrine, Gilchrist, Cromartie, Harris, Carpenter, Jenkins, Fitzpatrick*, Forte*, McLendon*, Clady*.  Most of these acquisitions range from questionable to outright stupid.

Then to that list, throw in: 

• unnecessarily losing Snacks, despite being in the driver's seat for an extension while he was a RFA. 
• unnecessarily keeping Breno on PUP at some $5m for a best-case scenario upside of 10 starts.
• keeping Geno even when teams called up for a trade (granted it was probably only conditional picks, but he should have taken it), even after he picked up Fitz and guaranteed him the starting job for the season.
• not moving Mo when his trade value was far higher.
• not moving Sheldon when his trade value was higher (demanding a 1st rounder for him midseason this year, in delusional fashion)
• who knows how many other things I'm not thinking of now, since this is all just off the top of my head.

Really, I'm amazed anyone would boast about the job he's done in acquiring veteran talent.

[varjet]

 

38 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, he really isn't a good GM. He's not even good enough to call just OK. If he was fired today there's no justification to believe a single NFL team would then hire him in the same capacity.

His veteran acquisitions are even worse than his draft picks on balance. It takes no stroke of genius to overpay for 30+ yr old veterans on their final NFL contracts, and then whiff on most such players still in their 20s (Skrine, Gilchrist, Jenkins).

List all the veterans he brought in, and then check off which ones now look smart and which already look shortsighted in (or before) their 2nd year here. Players with a * cost draft picks:

Marshall*, Revis, Mo*, Skrine, Gilchrist, Cromartie, Harris, Carpenter, Jenkins, Fitzpatrick*, Forte*, McLendon*, Clady*.  Most of these acquisitions range from questionable to outright stupid.

Then to that list, throw in: 

• unnecessarily losing Snacks, despite being in the driver's seat for an extension while he was a RFA. 
• unnecessarily keeping Breno on PUP at some $5m for a best-case scenario upside of 10 starts.
• keeping Geno even when teams called up for a trade (granted it was probably only conditional picks, but he should have taken it), even after he picked up Fitz and guaranteed him the starting job for the season.
• not moving Mo when his trade value was far higher.
• not moving Sheldon when his trade value was higher (demanding a 1st rounder for him midseason this year, in delusional fashion)
• who knows how many other things I'm not thinking of now, since this is all just off the top of my head.

Really, I'm amazed anyone would boast about the job he's done in acquiring veteran talent.

Marshall-was great in 2015.  Helped the Jets make the playoffs.  Contract not terrible.  Key decision is 2017.

Revis-Woody Special-bad move.

Mo-Woody Special.  Given Williams pick, the call was letting him walk like Malk Jackson

Skrine-Toss up.  Was better last year.  Mis-cused/mis-coached.   He could be characterized as a suboptimal but required spend of cap room.  Bowles was also behind this.

Gilcrist-same as Skrine.

Harris-Not the worst move.  Defense worse without him.  Suboptimal but necessary spend of cap room.

Carpenter-Great signing.  Extend him.

Jenkins-absolutely boneheaded, but done because he thought he was losing Mo, before Woody would not agree on a reasonable deal.

Fitzpatrick-trade a decent move.  Signing for $12mm boneheaded, but likely Woody driven.

Forte-another signing that demonstrated that the GM and CS were not on the same page.  This position should have been filled cheaper/with a draft pick, and Powell should have played more earlier in the season.  He ended up one of the top 3 offensive players and did not even play until week 12.

McClendon-solid signing.

Clady-needed an LT.  Valiant effort.  If healthy and cheap, could be on team in 2017, although neither are likely.

Snacks-miscalculation in retrospect.  Everyone but Giants thought that paying a 2 down lineman that much was not worth it, but they were wrong, particularly for a good guy.

Breno-this must have been Woody hoping for a playoff run. Not cutting him was a boneheaded waste of cap space.

Geno-see Breno.

Mo-Agreed, Woody, see above.

Sheldon-see Mo.

So Macc was far from perfect, but I think others contributed to his faults.  If I were Macc, I would be listening only to myself going forward-at least then he would have no one else to blame but himself.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, varjet said:

 

Marshall-was great in 2015.  Helped the Jets make the playoffs.  Contract not terrible.  Key decision is 2017.

Sorry I missed the part where the Jets made the playoffs in 2015.

Revis-Woody Special-bad move.

You keep typing this but there is no proof that Woody insisted on re-signing Revis against Maccagnan's better judgment. After also dumping truckloads of money for Cromartie, Skrine, and Gilchrist in the secondary, Maccagnan gets no such benefit of the doubt until there's so much as a tiny leak that this was all Woody's doing.

Mo-Woody Special.  Given Williams pick, the call was letting him walk like Malk Jackson

Same as above. There is no proof of this, or even so much as a hint. What there is a hint of is that Maccagnan unsuccessfully tried to trade him for 2 offseasons due to his demands being out of touch with what anyone was willing to offer up. This is 100% on Maccagnan and 0% on Woody, beyond his being the one that hired Maccagnan.

Skrine-Toss up.  Was better last year.  Mis-cused/mis-coached.   He could be characterized as a suboptimal but required spend of cap room.  Bowles was also behind this.

Blah. He was nothing special before he got here. Best summary is that, against some bad competition last year, he had a handful of good games. The rest of his tenure here sucked. Because he sucks. Also believe he had to be benched a bit for disciplinary reasons this past month. 

Gilcrist-same as Skrine.

Yeah, exactly. He looked decent against bad teams for a while in 2015. He's not worth the contract offered to him. You can't keep blaming Bowles because never-before players stayed as never-became players. More likely they were just bad pickups from the start.

Harris-Not the worst move.  Defense worse without him.  Suboptimal but necessary spend of cap room.

Harris was a terrible move. Your logic here is poor, because you presume the alternative to Harris is an empty roster spot. If that's the case, that's also on Maccagnan. It was not a necessary spend of cap room no matter how many people have tried feeding you that false line of thinking.

Carpenter-Great signing.  Extend him.

Extend him now? Why on earth would we do that? He's already got 2 more years. Best course of action, as likely as not, is to let him play out this contract and let someone else pick him up in his 30s, where we pick up a usable compensatory draft pick in return. I'd add that Maccagnan didn't even want Carpenter. He was Maccagnan's consolation prize.

Jenkins-absolutely boneheaded, but done because he thought he was losing Mo, before Woody would not agree on a reasonable deal.

He didn't think the was "losing" Mo. He thought he was going to get his - not Woody's; his - unrealistic demand for Mo. Woody is not the general manager and nobody's even whispered a credible leak that he influenced this at all. What's worse is that Jenkins isn't any good anyhow. He'd have been better off re-signing Douzable at the league minimum.

Fitzpatrick-trade a decent move.  Signing for $12mm boneheaded, but likely Woody driven.

Same as above. This was not Woody driven, and I think I see your pattern here. Any move you don't like you blame on Woody without a shred of evidence he was at all involved in the decision. Not only was it stupid, but it was Maccagnan that set the bar so high for Fitz in Feb-March with his idiotic 3-yr offer. Lucky for Maccagnan, Fitz is even more shortsighted than he is.

Forte-another signing that demonstrated that the GM and CS were not on the same page.  This position should have been filled cheaper/with a draft pick, and Powell should have played more earlier in the season.  He ended up one of the top 3 offensive players and did not even play until week 12.

Forte was not a good pickup. He cost a mid-round draft pick. You sign/re-sign *one* of him or Powell, not both of them, since both were UFAs that cost a draft pick to ink. The Jets will have the most expensive RB group in the NFL next year. Well done, Maccagnan.

McClendon-solid signing.

McLendon was just fine. You cannot effectively grade his acquisition without counting the colossal blunder of letting Snacks go.

Clady-needed an LT.  Valiant effort.  If healthy and cheap, could be on team in 2017, although neither are likely.

Valiant effort, lol. He was not good and then got injured. We also lost a draft pick that turned into this year's 4th rounder. A fool does this.

Snacks-miscalculation in retrospect.  Everyone but Giants thought that paying a 2 down lineman that much was not worth it, but they were wrong, particularly for a good guy.

The retrospect miscalculation has nothing whatsoever to do with the Giants. The time to re-sign Snacks was in March of 2015, when the team had leverage on him, not wait until March of 2016 when he goes to the highest bidder.

Breno-this must have been Woody hoping for a playoff run. Not cutting him was a boneheaded waste of cap space.

Same theme based on the same baseless conspiracy theory. It was a foolish move and it was 100% on the team's GM.

Geno-see Breno.

Agree: see my comments for Breno

Mo-Agreed, Woody, see above.

Nope. It was all Maccagnan unless you can prove any owner direction to the contrary. 

Sheldon-see Mo.

Where on earth did you get the idea that failure to trade Sheldon Richardson is due to Woody Johnson?

So Macc was far from perfect, but I think others contributed to his faults.  If I were Macc, I would be listening only to myself going forward-at least then he would have no one else to blame but himself.

He's more than just far from perfect. So far he's far from acceptable. There is no evidence Maccagnan listened to anyone other than himself, other than specifically picking up Cromartie was likely influenced by his head coach. Also drafting of Lee in round 1 because his HC wanted more speed on defense. But there's no reason Maccagnan has to listen to bad advice. Not unless he simply doesn't know any better himself, which is the most likely of all probabilities. 

 

rofl

You are wayyyyy off the reservation in baselessly blaming Woody for any - actually every - move you didn't like, while fully crediting only Maccagnan for any move you did like. You can't possibly believe this stuff for real.

It reads like a poorly constructed conspiracy theory. No offense.

[#27TheDominator]

I think that Revis was very good in 2015.  I think statistics back that up.  You guys are like Mets fans complaining about closers because they are aren't as good as Rivera.  I think Revis will be good again and I think he can be excellent at safety.  OTOH, I am not sure that I care to find out at that price.

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

First, in some ways we are better off - WR and depth, for example.

But, here is the important point - 2 years ago we had players that were at the end of the career, so while building through the draft the age of the Jets roster has made the team erode more. For example, Pace was too old to play, Brick retired (if had he stayed he would have eroded), Mangold got older, slower, and more injury prone. So we lost 40% of the OL because of aging/retirement. We lost our starting OLB (Pace). Harris while still a tackler got older and slower.

Had, Idzik stayed where would the team be now? That is the main issue. Mac replaced some of the missing parts (WR), but also had to replace existing parts that have aged out, Brick, Pace, etc. So the target was moving. Had Mac inherited a younger team, I think we would be much better. Unfortunately, the team aged badly while he was trying to build it.

the whole thing about idzik is that he a ton of draft failures in his two seasons.  he missed badly on milliner and barely got a player in pryor.  by comparison way more of mac's draftees are still on the team and some are making some good contribution.  obviously the devon smith and hack picks are hurting the team at the present but next season might be a whole diferent story.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

Quote

Quote

 

 

Devin Smith is as complete a bust as you will find, worse than the immortal Johnny Lam Jones,  and, when, exactly are you expecting to see "Hack" on the field?

[DMan77]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, he really isn't a good GM. He's not even good enough to call just OK. If he was fired today there's no justification to believe a single NFL team would then hire him in the same capacity.

His veteran acquisitions are even worse than his draft picks on balance. It takes no stroke of genius to overpay for 30+ yr old veterans on their final NFL contracts, and then whiff on most such players still in their 20s (Skrine, Gilchrist, Jenkins).

List all the veterans he brought in, and then check off which ones now look smart and which already look shortsighted in (or before) their 2nd year here. Players with a * cost draft picks:

Marshall*, Revis, Mo*, Skrine, Gilchrist, Cromartie, Harris, Carpenter, Jenkins, Fitzpatrick*, Forte*, McLendon*, Clady*.  Most of these acquisitions range from questionable to outright stupid.

Then to that list, throw in: 

• unnecessarily losing Snacks, despite being in the driver's seat for an extension while he was a RFA. 
• unnecessarily keeping Breno on PUP at some $5m for a best-case scenario upside of 10 starts.
• keeping Geno even when teams called up for a trade (granted it was probably only conditional picks, but he should have taken it), even after he picked up Fitz and guaranteed him the starting job for the season.
• not moving Mo when his trade value was far higher.
• not moving Sheldon when his trade value was higher (demanding a 1st rounder for him midseason this year, in delusional fashion)
• who knows how many other things I'm not thinking of now, since this is all just off the top of my head.

Really, I'm amazed anyone would boast about the job he's done in acquiring veteran talent.

I completely understand your groups side of this... And you'll never catch me saying the guy is flawless... But I didn't actually boast anywhere about the talent itself he grabbed. What I did applaud him for was the way he signed those players. The contracts are super team friendly. He can cut a bunch of those guys with very minimal dead money. That's such a big piece of the puzzle when it comes to being a GM...

You're going to be able to find a list of bad moves or hindsight questions with every GM. If a handful of moves you don't agree with is your criteria for wanting to fire a GM, then you're going to be pushing for guys to be fired every 2 years. Because someone is always going to be able to point to things they SHOULD have done after the fact.

There is no perfect GM. There are no perfect offseasons. There are no perfect drafts.

You take the good with the bad and you hope the good at least out balances it eventually. And I still believe he should be given the chance in this 3rd year to tip the scales back. I think he's done enough good, or at least put the Jets in a good enough position with what he had to warrant seeing what could happen year 3. 

Also the biggest complaint that gets me from people is being upset that he didn't pull off multiple trades... How many major trades do you see ANY team making per year? Trust me, as much as we think Mo and Sheldon were great trade candidates, every other team had one of those guys too, and they're asking why they didn't get traded. It's hard to trade in the NFL. It takes two sides and a lot of risk from both. I just don't think it's fair to bury a guy over not making a trade based on the way the NFL is shaped right now. 

[JetFanWithNOPSL2017]

Are the Jets better off today than two years ago today?
No?
Grade is an F.

They were worse in 2014, much worse

Proof?

Just consider that the pile of garbage you base your user name after was our starting QB in 2014

Case closed

[UnitedWhofans]

What I find very interesting about Sperm's main critique with Macc, which is that he signed vets that lost us draft picks, is that by saying that he is saying Macc is a good GM when it comes to drafting and trading draft picks.

Because think about it, if Macc was a bad GM at selecting draft picks and making draft trades, why would we want more draft picks? Maybe a bit of oversimplification, but it logically makes sense. By criticizing Macc for costing us draft picks, you are assuming that those draft picks result in good players or trades to get good players. That would mean that you think that Macc is good at drafting and making draft trades.

It's like wanting to give somebody more power because you know he or she can handle it.

It's fascinating. He critiques him and supports him at the same time.

I didn't bring up his FA signings. I had his drafting at a B+ and overall a B, so his FA signings have dragged him down a level

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, DMan77 said:

I completely understand your groups side of this... And you'll never catch me saying the guy is flawless... But I didn't actually boast anywhere about the talent itself he grabbed. What I did applaud him for was the way he signed those players. The contracts are super team friendly. He can cut a bunch of those guys with very minimal dead money. That's such a big piece of the puzzle when it comes to being a GM...

You're going to be able to find a list of bad moves or hindsight questions with every GM. If a handful of moves you don't agree with is your criteria for wanting to fire a GM, then you're going to be pushing for guys to be fired every 2 years. Because someone is always going to be able to point to things they SHOULD have done after the fact.

There is no perfect GM. There are no perfect offseasons. There are no perfect drafts.

You take the good with the bad and you hope the good at least out balances it eventually. And I still believe he should be given the chance in this 3rd year to tip the scales back. I think he's done enough good, or at least put the Jets in a good enough position with what he had to warrant seeing what could happen year 3. 

Also the biggest complaint that gets me from people is being upset that he didn't pull off multiple trades... How many major trades do you see ANY team making per year? Trust me, as much as we think Mo and Sheldon were great trade candidates, every other team had one of those guys too, and they're asking why they didn't get traded. It's hard to trade in the NFL. It takes two sides and a lot of risk from both. I just don't think it's fair to bury a guy over not making a trade based on the way the NFL is shaped right now. 

How did he sign them? By paying them more than anyone else was offering? This is hardly a skill.

What you're saying is a common misconception. They aren't team-friendly. Every dollar paid to them is a dollar we're unable to pay someone more worthwhile. There is no 2017 cap vs 2016 cap vs 2015 cap. Or, there is and there isn't. Spending not used this year can be used next year. They also aren't after the fact complaints; these were called out when the moves were made (or when lack of moves were not made).

No one is complaining about your ridiculous straw man exaggeration that "perfect" off-seasons and "perfect" drafts are expected. What people complain about is they are comparatively bad offseasons and bad drafts. They are not even so-so ones. They are bad deals on older players, at the expense of not signing younger ones. They are bad deals that trade away draft picks that could be used to find long-term, core players, that were pissed away to plug a temporary hole - often inadequately - for a single season in which a serious SB run was never realistic in the first place. They are bad judgment calls on the value of players and picks.

Likewise, the reason the last paragraph is ridiculous is because he wanted to trade these players. These are trades he sought out and offered to the league. The problem is that no one is paying his demand, or close to it. Look at it this way: pretend Sheldon Richardson had the midseason-2016 trade value of a 3rd & a 4th in the upcoming draft (as opposed to the 1st rounder he laughably demanded as a minimum price). By passing up on this trade, Maccagnan effectively traded away a 3rd and a 4th for half a season of (and the $8m 2017 RFA rights to) Sheldon Richardson. A player he doesn't want, doesn't need, isn't locked up long term, who was having a subpar year halfway through a season the Jets had already blown, who's a locker room problem and a loose cannon, who's 1 indiscretion away from a year-long suspension, and a player he is going to try to trade in March anyway. Mike Maccagnan effectively traded away much-needed Jets draft picks to keep this undesired player under these circumstances.

That is why he is a bad GM. It isn't because he didn't make trades, as you put it. It's because he did make bad trades, by turning down what he could get while he could get it. He trades away the value of these players he doesn't want because he's worried about the optics of the deal. And each time he does, the value of his trade-able assets goes down.

We all want the same thing in the end. You, me, any fan, anyone associated with the team. and specifically so does Mike Maccagnan. Unfortunately he's just not good at this. He is a scout, with (so far) questionable scouting results and skill, that is in over his head as a GM, who got the job because his friend and mentor recommended him to a the team's owner.

[ZachEY]

5 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

First, in some ways we are better off - WR and depth, for example.

But, here is the important point - 2 years ago we had players that were at the end of the career, so while building through the draft the age of the Jets roster has made the team erode more. For example, Pace was too old to play, Brick retired (if had he stayed he would have eroded), Mangold got older, slower, and more injury prone. So we lost 40% of the OL because of aging/retirement. We lost our starting OLB (Pace). Harris while still a tackler got older and slower.

Had, Idzik stayed where would the team be now? That is the main issue. Mac replaced some of the missing parts (WR), but also had to replace existing parts that have aged out, Brick, Pace, etc. So the target was moving. Had Mac inherited a younger team, I think we would be much better. Unfortunately, the team aged badly while he was trying to build it.

Wait... So Mangold and Harris were old in 2014 and that makes end of 2014 worse than end of 2016 when Mangold and Harris are still playing and what now?  Also, Brick retired end of 2015, and Mac will again be looking for his replacement at end of 2016.

I don't know where the team would be if Idzik had stayed?  Maybe we'd be 4-12 again, instead of 5-11?

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Because think about it, if Macc was a bad GM at selecting draft picks and making draft trades, why would we want more draft picks? Maybe a bit of oversimplification, but it logically makes sense.

No.  No, it does not.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Wait... So Mangold and Harris were old in 2014 and that makes end of 2014 worse than end of 2016 when Mangold and Harris are still playing and what now?  Also, Brick retired end of 2015, and Mac will again be looking for his replacement at end of 2016.

I don't know where the team would be if Idzik had stayed?  Maybe we'd be 4-12 again, instead of 5-11?

Brick just up & retired on him with no warning...after Maccagnan came to him with a 'take a $6m pay cut or get cut' ultimatum in April. Just like that.

I mean, what's a girl to do?

[ZachEY]

6 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

But few complained about it at the time. Which brings me back to my philosophy of unfair hindsight criticism. And just because you disagree with it doesn't mean there has to be nastiness. 

Meat eaters don't shame vegetarians in direct conversation with them

On the one hand, you say sports writers know more than us, they are professionals at this, so Macc truly was the best GM in the league last year.  They know better.

On the other hand, Macc is a professional GM and former professional scout, so he is not expected to know better than us, and just because we, message board fans, thought something was a good idea at the time, the professional shouldn't have been expected to know better than the fans.

Also, the guy who called Jets fans - which encompasses all of us here - "scum of the NFL" does not get to lecture on nastiness.

[ZachEY]

5 hours ago, varjet said:

Marshall-was great in 2015.  Helped the Jets make the playoffs.

How'd we make out in the playoffs?  My memory is a bit foggy.

[Jet Nut]

6 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Being kind of bad versus being really bad? That's your argument? The deal was never good. Just like the Wilk deal is likely to be never good. It's all sunk cost. Just like this discussion of which I am over. 

Except he wasn't kind of bad the year before.  

Or the year before which led to the Jets signing him.  

 

[DMan77]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

How did he sign them? By paying them more than anyone else was offering? This is hardly a skill.

What you're saying is a common misconception. They aren't team-friendly. Every dollar paid to them is a dollar we're unable to pay someone more worthwhile. There is no 2017 cap vs 2016 cap vs 2015 cap. Or, there is and there isn't. Spending not used this year can be used next year. They also aren't after the fact complaints; these were called out when the moves were made (or when lack of moves were not made).

No one is complaining about your ridiculous straw man exaggeration that "perfect" off-seasons and "perfect" drafts are expected. What people complain about is they are comparatively bad offseasons and bad drafts. They are not even so-so ones. They are bad deals on older players, at the expense of not signing younger ones. They are bad deals that trade away draft picks that could be used to find long-term, core players, that were pissed away to plug a temporary hole - often inadequately - for a single season in which a serious SB run was never realistic in the first place. They are bad judgment calls on the value of players and picks.

Likewise, the reason the last paragraph is ridiculous is because he wanted to trade these players. These are trades he sought out and offered to the league. The problem is that no one is paying his demand, or close to it. Look at it this way: pretend Sheldon Richardson had the midseason-2016 trade value of a 3rd & a 4th in the upcoming draft (as opposed to the 1st rounder he laughably demanded as a minimum price). By passing up on this trade, Maccagnan effectively traded away a 3rd and a 4th for half a season of (and the 2017 RFA rights to) Sheldon Richardson. A player he doesn't want, doesn't need, isn't locked up long term, who's having a subpar year halfway through a season the Jets had already blown, who's is a locker room problem, who's 1 indiscretion away from a year-long suspension, and whom he is going to try to trade in March anyway. Mike Maccagnan effectively traded away much-needed Jets draft picks to keep this undesired player under these circumstances.

That is why he is a bad GM. It isn't because he didn't make trades, as you put it. It's because he did make bad trades, by turning down what he could get while he could get it. He trades away the value of these players he doesn't want because he's worried about the optics of the deal. And each time he does, the value of his trade-able assets goes down.

We all want the same thing in the end. You, me, any fan, anyone associated with the team. and specifically so does Mike Maccagnan. Unfortunately he's just not good at this. He is a scout, with (so far) questionable scouting results and skill, that is in over his head as a GM, who got the job because his friend and mentor recommended him to a the team's owner.

Eh that's all fine. I just don't see a GM around who would have done anything much different I guess. I don't see MM as 30 tiers below the other GMs out there. 

And it isn't just that he signed them with the most money. He was able to lay down the wording so he could get out of these bad contacts if they didn't work out. Not all of them, but most. 50million in potential cap space isn't anything to scoff at. He was also able to sit back and wait for Fitz to basically balk away from that 3 year deal he wanted. He could have easily paniced and signed him, but he waited until he got a decent deal. Of course it didn't work out, but you know what, he's gone now.

You can go after his drafts but I again don't see his drafts as the bottom of the barrel. Not at all. I like Williams, I like Lee once he slows down, I think Mauldin will be a good player, I think Shell is going to be solid, and I like the WR depth he's put together, I think Smith was set to be good before all his injuries to name a few things... Heck even Deon Simon took a bunch of steps forward this year... Is it a draft record that gets you into the hall of fame? No of course not. But he has some useful players on this team, and a few that could still work their way there.

I think as much as I'm trying to see some positives, a lot of you guys are here in such rage that things didn't go perfect that you're just seeing red and want something new. You've convinced yourself that it's all doom and gloom and that we have Mr. Magoo or something running the organisation. I just don't see it that way, and I don't think it takes rose color glasses for me to do that. There are SOME positives there if you look. Maybe not enough to completely tip the scales for you, but there are some. He's not a bad GM in my mind right now.

He's an Ok GM. I don't feel he's over his head. I don't feel that the majority of the moves he's made were crazy or whacky or totally out of the ordinary. Signing Mo was a move that was applauded all over the NFL... There wasn't some secret group of amazing GMs somewhere saying "nope nope nope!"... He has made logical moves to this point. Some of them haven't worked, but he hasn't done anything that makes me think he has no clue. He really hasn't. 

He's done nothing worth saying he needs to get run out of town yet. If he goes and signs just 2 old FAs with the 50 mill of cap room, or doesn't cut anyone this year, or takes a QB in the 1st or 2nd round, or somehow drafts 7 busts, then yes the scales will tip for me too and I'll lean more towards your side... But I just don't see his body of work as being THAT bad right now. I just see a guy who has (or hasn't) made some good moves, some decent ones, and some really, really, really bad ones. But I don't put the entire blame for how bad this season was on his shoulders. 

I see a guy that I give a C grade too right now. That's not worth kicking him to the curb. 

And you're right, we do all want the same thing. I just think you can't keep kicking out GMs and coaches every 2 years when they don't run the ideal offseason. I think a lot of minds will change one way or another in this year 3 as his draft picks "come of age" and he has another shot here to bring in the right FAs to at least partly fill the glaring holes the team has... So we shall see. 

 

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, JetFanWithNOPSL2017 said:

They were worse in 2014, much worse

Proof?

Just consider that the pile of garbage you base your user name after was our starting QB in 2014

Case closed

 

 

And who is our starting QB going into next season?  How exactly are we better off today at the position than we were in 2014?

[varjet]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

How'd we make out in the playoffs?  My memory is a bit foggy.

Ok.  I meant to say almost make the playoffs.

Yes, I believe that Woody is a counterproductive influence in the meeting room of this team.   Too many decisions of these guys just make no sense.

But at this point Macc has his third year.   Let's see what the Jets do.  The Braintrust of this Board generally thinks the Jets should do a rebuild.   I think in 4 months' time we will know if the football decisions are being made by football people or business people.

 

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, varjet said:

Ok.  I meant to say almost make the playoffs.

Yes, I believe that Woody is a counterproductive influence in the meeting room of this team.   Too many decisions of these guys just make no sense.

But at this point Macc has his third year.   Let's see what the Jets do.  The Braintrust of this Board generally thinks the Jets should do a rebuild.   I think in 4 months' time we will know if the football decisions are being made by football people or business people.

Again, what Sperm points out is 100% true, the moves you don't like, you blame on Woody.  The moves you do like, you credit Macc for.  And, with that having been said, I actually tend to agree that Revis is a Woody move, but it ends there.  You've taken it to some absurd extreme.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, DMan77 said:

Eh that's all fine. I just don't see a GM around who would have done anything much different I guess. I don't see MM as 30 tiers below the other GMs out there. 

And it isn't just that he signed them with the most money. He was able to lay down the wording so he could get out of these bad contacts if they didn't work out. Not all of them, but most. 50million in potential cap space isn't anything to scoff at. He was also able to sit back and wait for Fitz to basically balk away from that 3 year deal he wanted. He could have easily paniced and signed him, but he waited until he got a decent deal. Of course it didn't work out, but you know what, he's gone now.

You can go after his drafts but I again don't see his drafts as the bottom of the barrel. Not at all. I like Williams, I like Lee once he slows down, I think Mauldin will be a good player, I think Shell is going to be solid, and I like the WR depth he's put together, I think Smith was set to be good before all his injuries to name a few things... Heck even Deon Simon took a bunch of steps forward this year... Is it a draft record that gets you into the hall of fame? No of course not. But he has some useful players on this team, and a few that could still work their way there.

I think as much as I'm trying to see some positives, a lot of you guys are here in such rage that things didn't go perfect that you're just seeing red and want something new. You've convinced yourself that it's all doom and gloom and that we have Mr. Magoo or something running the organisation. I just don't see it that way, and I don't think it takes rose color glasses for me to do that. There are SOME positives there if you look. Maybe not enough to completely tip the scales for you, but there are some. He's not a bad GM in my mind right now.

He's an Ok GM. I don't feel he's over his head. I don't feel that the majority of the moves he's made were crazy or whacky or totally out of the ordinary. Signing Mo was a move that was applauded all over the NFL... There wasn't some secret group of amazing GMs somewhere saying "nope nope nope!"... He has made logical moves to this point. Some of them haven't worked, but he hasn't done anything that makes me think he has no clue. He really hasn't. 

He's done nothing worth saying he needs to get run out of town yet. If he goes and signs just 2 old FAs with the 50 mill of cap room, or doesn't cut anyone this year, or takes a QB in the 1st or 2nd round, or somehow drafts 7 busts, then yes the scales will tip for me too and I'll lean more towards your side... But I just don't see his body of work as being THAT bad right now. I just see a guy who has (or hasn't) made some good moves, some decent ones, and some really, really, really bad ones. But I don't put the entire blame for how bad this season was on his shoulders. 

I see a guy that I give a C grade too right now. That's not worth kicking him to the curb. 

And you're right, we do all want the same thing. I just think you can't keep kicking out GMs and coaches every 2 years when they don't run the ideal offseason. I think a lot of minds will change one way or another in this year 3 as his draft picks "come of age" and he has another shot here to bring in the right FAs to at least partly fill the glaring holes the team has... So we shall see. 

 

Every GM would have done exactly what Mike Maccagnan did? What are you basing this on, other than nothing?

He "laid down the wording" lol. He paid them crazy amounts they weren't worth, instead of paying that money to younger FAs with a future (not to mention lock up his own, like Damon Harrison). Understand, if his FA pickups were good, then we wouldn't be talking about dumping almost all of them before their 2nd season here is up. The only veteran pickup anyone wants to keep, under the contract terms MM dished out, is Carpenter: a player he didn't even want.

Everyone likes Williams. It's just that crediting him for taking him at #6 is like crediting the Rams for drafting Orlando Pace. He was the draft's top rated prospect and was sitting there at #6. This was no "WOW, how'd he know about THAT guy?" pick.

Lee was a dumb selection at #20 unless he is absolutely great. That's why a team with so many expensive needs stays away from such players. You take a player at a position that, if he's just a so-so but legit starter, it's still a good pick. Lee looks like nothing special so far, and if he improves he'll still likely only be the type of player you can pickup as a FA for $6-7m per. It's a waste of a valuable asset.

Mauldin is nothing but a backup until proven otherwise.

Deon Simon taking a bunch of steps forward isn't saying much, since his starting point was stepping backwards. Maccagnan had so little confidence in him panning out he burned a '17 compensatory draft pick for a 30+ NT after f***ing things up badly with Damon Harrison.

Sitting back and leaving that deal open for Fitz for 5 months made him look incredibly weak. Agents and GMs around the league seem quite accustomed to saying "no" to Maccagnan unless he goes overboard with contract terms (or unless he's giving up our draft picks for older/injured players they simply want off their books).

You say "some" of his moves haven't worked in a way that suggests it is even half of his moves that have worked. In actuality, he's not close to half his moves working out.

You're really going out on a limb by saying things like "if he signs 2 old FAs with $50m of cap room" or "if he doesn't cut anyone this year" which you know are outright impossibilities. He'd have to sign two pro bowl QBs in their prime to burn through $50m of cap room on only 2 players in 1 year. 

I see a guy that so far deserves a D, not a C. I can identify a couple of moves/players I like, but the only ones that weren't no-brainers, and who have contributed (positively) so far, in any way proportional to what they cost, are Carpenter and Anderson. That's a pathetically low showing for 2 years and some $200m in new contracts dished out.

[bostonmajet]

48 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Wait... So Mangold and Harris were old in 2014 and that makes end of 2014 worse than end of 2016 when Mangold and Harris are still playing and what now?  Also, Brick retired end of 2015, and Mac will again be looking for his replacement at end of 2016.

I don't know where the team would be if Idzik had stayed?  Maybe we'd be 4-12 again, instead of 5-11?

My point is that the team Mac inherited was not only bad, but the good pieces were old. Mac was filling holes, but as the team aged (got 2 years older) more holes were created. There was only so much that Mac could do in 2 years. The trajectory of the team was a hard downward spiral. Maybe that would have gotten us to 0-16 this year and the #1 pick, but is that QB worth it? Either way, Turning the team around required changing the trajectory. Now instead of spiraling down we have leveled off (+ or - a few degrees). If you are heading downhill at a rapid pace, you will accelerate towards the bottom as you go, it takes tremendous energy to just slow down let alone turn around and head up hill. It's like an analogy

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Because think about it, if Macc was a bad GM at selecting draft picks and making draft trades, why would we want more draft picks? Maybe a bit of oversimplification, but it logically makes sense. 

[DMan77]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Every GM would have done exactly what Mike Maccagnan did? What are you basing this on, other than nothing?

He "laid down the wording" lol. He paid them crazy amounts they weren't worth, instead of paying that money to younger FAs with a future (not to mention lock up his own, like Damon Harrison). Understand, if his FA pickups were good, then we wouldn't be talking about dumping almost all of them before their 2nd season here is up. The only veteran pickup anyone wants to keep, under the contract terms MM dished out, is Carpenter: a player he didn't even want.

Everyone likes Williams. It's just that crediting him for taking him at #6 is like crediting the Rams for drafting Orlando Pace. He was the draft's top rated prospect and was sitting there at #6. This was no "WOW, how'd he know about THAT guy?" pick.

Lee was a dumb selection at #20 unless he is absolutely great. That's why a team with so many expensive needs stays away from such players. You take a player at a position that, if he's just a so-so but legit starter, it's still a good pick. Lee looks like nothing special so far, and if he improves he'll still likely only be the type of player you can pickup as a FA for $6-7m per. It's a waste of a valuable asset.

Mauldin is nothing but a backup until proven otherwise.

Deon Simon taking a bunch of steps forward isn't saying much, since his starting point was stepping backwards. Maccagnan had so little confidence in him panning out he burned a '17 compensatory draft pick for a 30+ NT after f***ing things up badly with Damon Harrison.

Sitting back and leaving that deal open for Fitz for 5 months made him look incredibly weak. Agents and GMs around the league seem quite accustomed to saying "no" to Maccagnan unless he goes overboard with contract terms (or unless he's giving up our draft picks for older/injured players they simply want off their books).

You say "some" of his moves haven't worked in a way that suggests it is even half of his moves that have worked. In actuality, he's not close to half his moves working out.

You're really going out on a limb by saying things like "if he signs 2 old FAs with $50m of cap room" or "if he doesn't cut anyone this year" which you know are outright impossibilities. He'd have to sign two pro bowl QBs in their prime to burn through $50m of cap room on only 2 players in 1 year. 

I see a guy that so far deserves a D, not a C. I can identify a couple of moves/players I like, but the only ones that weren't no-brainers, and who have contributed (positively) so far, in any way proportional to what they cost, are Carpenter and Anderson. That's a pathetically low showing for 2 years and some $200m in new contracts dished out.

What moves were out there to make that he didn't? What would you have done? I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way, I'm just interested... I don't remember seeing a whole lot in the last couple of years about him making outrageous deals, or him bringing in total lost causes, or him making giant leaps in the draft outside of Hack... 

Who has done that much better with the pieces they have to work with? Pitt seems to always draft well I suppose... Seattle had a few big hits in a row... But I don't see any GMs out there where someone couldn't really write a scathing article about a few of their moves that didn't work or that they didn't like too. It's a damn tough job! I think pretty much every GM on a team without a QB can get crushed. So I suppose if we want to kill him because he hasn't found a QB, that's fair... But that's also a lot of luck as we've seen!

It's also easy for us to say "I knew that move wouldn't work!" because a lot of them don't. I'd say more than half end up not being worth the cash, or not being worth the draft pick. I think that's simply football. No one bats .1000, or even .500.. I think it's harder to look at the ones that did work, or the ones that were sound decisions at the time, and understand why someone made that move... 

We keep talking about how he signed these over priced vets, but I'm not sure what he could have done to make you guys happy with him. If he left the team cold and open in 2015, we'd probably be talking about back to back 4 win seasons and people would be all over him about that. He can't win here.

I guess it's just a matter of opinion for a few things... You say waiting on Fitz made him look weak, I think it made him look good. I think not signing him day 1 into the offseason was the right move and it helped keep it to a one year deal. He showed he wasn't afraid of losing him. He showed he was willing to let another team come in over the top if they wanted.

I think a lot of the guys he went and got were right for the team at the time and I just think it's hard to fault him for trying to win and trying to build at the same time. Who was predicting Revis' total collapse? You could of course argue he wasn't going to be worth the money and that he was declining, but no one saw a complete collapse.

I just think it's hard to kill someone after 2 years on the job. I always have. It's not just MM or TB. I think the turnover in coaches and GMs is downright silly in the NFL. We basically run guys in and out of the office and try and see who has the best luck in the draft, or who happens to guess right about a particular FA... I see a lot of average-ish GMs. I don't see a lot of geniuses in waiting, or guys teams could go poach because almost every move they made was amazing...

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or argue or get in a battle. You and your side of the room have valid points and have made up your mind. I just think it's too soon to write the guy off. I think he's a smart football guy, and I think he's learning and that this will be a really good and big offseason for the Jets. You might not see where that optimism comes from, but I think he has what it takes. I like some of the things he's done and tried to do regardless of the outcome. I think he's hit a decent balance of risk vs. safe plays. I think the Jets have a better core than we saw this year. They haven't all worked out, but I think he's a smart guy who is learning from each and every move he makes and will only get better as he gets more information and more experience...  And I'm choosing to run with that instead of the doom and gloom. It's more fun.

[CrazyCarl40]

6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Except he wasn't kind of bad the year before.  

Or the year before which led to the Jets signing him.  

Revis was bad in 2015. Go watch the games or look at the stats. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Revis was bad in 2015. Go watch the games or look at the stats. 

Sorry, I disagree.  He wasn't the Revis of old but he wasn't bad.  Huge difference.

[LIJetsFan]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Every GM would have done exactly what Mike Maccagnan did? What are you basing this on, other than nothing?

He "laid down the wording" lol. He paid them crazy amounts they weren't worth, instead of paying that money to younger FAs with a future (not to mention lock up his own, like Damon Harrison). Understand, if his FA pickups were good, then we wouldn't be talking about dumping almost all of them before their 2nd season here is up. The only veteran pickup anyone wants to keep, under the contract terms MM dished out, is Carpenter: a player he didn't even want.

Everyone likes Williams. It's just that crediting him for taking him at #6 is like crediting the Rams for drafting Orlando Pace. He was the draft's top rated prospect and was sitting there at #6. This was no "WOW, how'd he know about THAT guy?" pick.

Lee was a dumb selection at #20 unless he is absolutely great. That's why a team with so many expensive needs stays away from such players. You take a player at a position that, if he's just a so-so but legit starter, it's still a good pick. Lee looks like nothing special so far, and if he improves he'll still likely only be the type of player you can pickup as a FA for $6-7m per. It's a waste of a valuable asset.

Mauldin is nothing but a backup until proven otherwise.

Deon Simon taking a bunch of steps forward isn't saying much, since his starting point was stepping backwards. Maccagnan had so little confidence in him panning out he burned a '17 compensatory draft pick for a 30+ NT after f***ing things up badly with Damon Harrison.

Sitting back and leaving that deal open for Fitz for 5 months made him look incredibly weak. Agents and GMs around the league seem quite accustomed to saying "no" to Maccagnan unless he goes overboard with contract terms (or unless he's giving up our draft picks for older/injured players they simply want off their books).

You say "some" of his moves haven't worked in a way that suggests it is even half of his moves that have worked. In actuality, he's not close to half his moves working out.

You're really going out on a limb by saying things like "if he signs 2 old FAs with $50m of cap room" or "if he doesn't cut anyone this year" which you know are outright impossibilities. He'd have to sign two pro bowl QBs in their prime to burn through $50m of cap room on only 2 players in 1 year. 

I see a guy that so far deserves a D, not a C. I can identify a couple of moves/players I like, but the only ones that weren't no-brainers, and who have contributed (positively) so far, in any way proportional to what they cost, are Carpenter and Anderson. That's a pathetically low showing for 2 years and some $200m in new contracts dished out.

I can't argue with most of this post but a D is still a little harsh.  

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, DMan77 said:

What moves were out there to make that he didn't? What would you have done? I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way, I'm just interested... I don't remember seeing a whole lot in the last couple of years about him making outrageous deals, or him bringing in total lost causes, or him making giant leaps in the draft outside of Hack... 

Who has done that much better with the pieces they have to work with? Pitt seems to always draft well I suppose... Seattle had a few big hits in a row... But I don't see any GMs out there where someone couldn't really write a scathing article about a few of their moves that didn't work or that they didn't like too. It's a damn tough job! I think pretty much every GM on a team without a QB can get crushed. So I suppose if we want to kill him because he hasn't found a QB, that's fair... But that's also a lot of luck as we've seen!

It's also easy for us to say "I knew that move wouldn't work!" because a lot of them don't. I'd say more than half end up not being worth the cash, or not being worth the draft pick. I think that's simply football. No one bats .1000, or even .500.. I think it's harder to look at the ones that did work, or the ones that were sound decisions at the time, and understand why someone made that move... 

We keep talking about how he signed these over priced vets, but I'm not sure what he could have done to make you guys happy with him. If he left the team cold and open in 2015, we'd probably be talking about back to back 4 win seasons and people would be all over him about that. He can't win here.

I guess it's just a matter of opinion for a few things... You say waiting on Fitz made him look weak, I think it made him look good. I think not signing him day 1 into the offseason was the right move and it helped keep it to a one year deal. He showed he wasn't afraid of losing him. He showed he was willing to let another team come in over the top if they wanted.

I think a lot of the guys he went and got were right for the team at the time and I just think it's hard to fault him for trying to win and trying to build at the same time. Who was predicting Revis' total collapse? You could of course argue he wasn't going to be worth the money and that he was declining, but no one saw a complete collapse.

I just think it's hard to kill someone after 2 years on the job. I always have. It's not just MM or TB. I think the turnover in coaches and GMs is downright silly in the NFL. We basically run guys in and out of the office and try and see who has the best luck in the draft, or who happens to guess right about a particular FA... I see a lot of average-ish GMs. I don't see a lot of geniuses in waiting, or guys teams could go poach because almost every move they made was amazing...

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or argue or get in a battle. You and your side of the room have valid points and have made up your mind. I just think it's too soon to write the guy off. I think he's a smart football guy, and I think he's learning and that this will be a really good and big offseason for the Jets. You might not see where that optimism comes from, but I think he has what it takes. I like some of the things he's done and tried to do regardless of the outcome. I think he's hit a decent balance of risk vs. safe plays. I think the Jets have a better core than we saw this year. They haven't all worked out, but I think he's a smart guy who is learning from each and every move he makes and will only get better as he gets more information and more experience...  And I'm choosing to run with that instead of the doom and gloom. It's more fun.

No, leaving an offer out there - one that was a ridiculous offer in the first place - for 5 months made him look weak. And not signing him early was the right move because it led to a 1 yr deal? What kind of logic is that -- the 1 yr deal is what Fitz wanted, not Maccagnan. In either case it was an idiotic move to base his offseason on Fitzpatrick returning at any price (including the foolish amounts he offered)..

But keep using exaggerations that would be used to rationalize even the worst GM in NFL history, like nobody gets them all right. 

You are getting impressed by his bad contracts because, for some reason, you don't realize the contract length/guarantee terms of 2 years is standard for most players. Therefore one looks back to the players and deals themselves, which are decidedly poor on balance. 

That you don't know of anyone who'd do a better job in his stead is irrelevant, since you'd never heard of Mike Maccagnan either until he Jets hired him. Same for virtually any GM in the league; past, present, or future. 

To lose an elite, young player at his position like Snacks, instead of locking him up in 2015 when he had endless cap room, is inexcusable. It speaks to his being a man that doesn't know what he has. He felt the Jets were better off with Antonio Cromartie for a year at double his deserved rate guaranteed, among other expensive players clearly past their prime. The really stupid thing about it is it is doubtful Snacks would have been more than $2-3m more than McLendon.