Great Barnwell Article: Lessons from the Vikings and Keenum

[Bugg]

39 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Why is it Petty's fault that the NFL team he plays for won't run an incredibly simplistic offense to suit his inability to learn how to run a more sophisticated one?  Is that your question?  I don't really understand anything in your post.

so run/run/3rd and 8 4 yard incompletion is sophisticated? 

[peebag]

5 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

You whine about Maccagnan so much, I think you have a crush on him.

Seriously, the only time you post on this site is talk about him or things related to him

well it's better than your homerific view on everything.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, Bugg said:

He has to go back to Shula and Tom Landry, guys who were offensive innovators, to pretend Todd Bowles, farming out his offense to the OC of the day, is some great offensive big brain. Landry instituted presnap movement that drove defenses crazy. Shula was so wedded to playing old guys he gave Dan Marino offensive control on Day 1 of training camp his rookie year.

Parcells won a Super Bowl calling plays that worked with Jeff Hostetler when Simms got hurt. Depending on personnel he had no problem on his own changing the offense wholesale year to year. Recall among his regrets here was not going to Ray Lucas sooner when Testaverde got hurt; same idea, run plays that work for this QB. 

WHAT THE F___ ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

all of those guys were defensive coaches.  and lets not leave out marvin lewis and mike zimmer or chuck noll.  so making a generalization that the offensive coaches are the ones the jets should get is sheer foolishness.  and it has nothing to do with todd bowles.  and just looking at the jets, how many times have the offensive coaches even reached the playoffs?  walton? 2 or 3 times.  coslet? once. kotite?  zero. charley winner?  zero. every defensive coach they've hired except for bowles has made the playoffs.  dan marino had offensive control from day one?  hardly.  he replaced woodley midway through the season.

so what the f-----are you talking about.

[Bugg]

19 minutes ago, rangerous said:

all of those guys were defensive coaches.  and lets not leave out marvin lewis and mike zimmer or chuck noll.  so making a generalization that the offensive coaches are the ones the jets should get is sheer foolishness.  and it has nothing to do with todd bowles.  and just looking at the jets, how many times have the offensive coaches even reached the playoffs?  walton? 2 or 3 times.  coslet? once. kotite?  zero. charley winner?  zero. every defensive coach they've hired except for bowles has made the playoffs.  dan marino had offensive control from day one?  hardly.  he replaced woodley midway through the season.

so what the f-----are you talking about.

But they(Landry, Shula, Parcells) are all guys that were involved in the whole team. They got involved in the offense. They didn't view themselves as head coach of the defense. And sadly with the exception of Mangini (again, other issues, another post) each and every coach Johnson has hired-Ryan, Edwards, Bowles-is a defense first guy who only cares the offense doesn't turn the ball over. They each farmed out the offense to the OC with limited or almost no involvement. And it hasn't worked at all. If you keep doing the same thing and it doesn't work, you should stop doing it. 

[rangerous]

8 minutes ago, Bugg said:

But they(Landry, Shula, Parcells) are all guys that were involved in the whole team. They got involved in the offense. They didn't view themselves as head coach of the defense. And sadly with the exception of Mangini (again, other issues, another post) each and every coach Johnson has hired-Ryan, Edwards, Bowles-is a defense first guy who only cares the offense doesn't turn the ball over. They each farmed out the offense to the OC with limited or almost no involvement. And it hasn't worked at all. If you keep doing the same thing and it doesn't work, you should stop doing it. 

the original thread was about the jets needing to go after an offensive coach should bowles be launched.  that is just foolish thinking.  whatever coach they do hire needs, as you say, to be involved in the whole team and understand both offense and defense.  but you want to offenses of a guy like chip kelley?  jerry glanville was another one of those chuck and duckers and he failed with the oilers and the falcons.  who knows what coslet was trying to run with the jets.

and, i will say right now, if this jets team had a good run game, they would be very tough to beat.

[long suffering jets fan]

15 hours ago, Pcola said:

Don't forget about paying Johnson over $2M versus what a rookie center would have cost.  

It's $2M, not the end of the world.  I don't expect Johnson to be there next year.

[long suffering jets fan]

21 hours ago, Jetster said:

This article confirms a lot of Jet fans beliefs that if you draft Baker Mayfield & complete the infrastructure around him, good Oline, weapons, above average defense, have Morton & Bates put in offensive plays he's comfortable with he can succeed. I agree, he's Case Keenum with a far superior arm & better movement skills throwing on the run.

Lamar Jackson, same thing, only slightly different offense. I would look at KC and what Reid does for Smith & Caroina and how Cam is used. I know there are many Jet fans who think Jackson is gonna suck, but I think being put in the right circumstance he could be RGIII exciting without the injuries. Jacksons speed would put so much pressure on a defense it would be ridiculous. There are many QBs who can scramble but Jackson is the type if he has a lane to the outside, 3rd & 6, is like nothing! 2.6 seconds & he's already gone 25 yards. 

I just want to finally see a Jet team with offensive strengths! I want to see an offense that fits with the team name...The Jets. They are so f*cking BORING. 

I take McSorely in the 5th round (even if we draft a QB in the first), that guy's a big time gamer.

[long suffering jets fan]

11 hours ago, Jetster said:

This article confirms a lot of Jet fans beliefs that if you draft Baker Mayfield & complete the infrastructure around him, good Oline, weapons, above average defense, have Morton & Bates put in offensive plays he's comfortable with he can succeed. I agree, he's Case Keenum with a far superior arm & better movement skills throwing on the run.

Lamar Jackson, same thing, only slightly different offense. I would look at KC and what Reid does for Smith & Caroina and how Cam is used. I know there are many Jet fans who think Jackson is gonna suck, but I think being put in the right circumstance he could be RGIII exciting without the injuries. Jacksons speed would put so much pressure on a defense it would be ridiculous. There are many QBs who can scramble but Jackson is the type if he has a lane to the outside, 3rd & 6, is like nothing! 2.6 seconds & he's already gone 25 yards. 

I just want to finally see a Jet team with offensive strengths! I want to see an offense that fits with the team name...The Jets. They are so f*cking BORING. 

I'd sign up for Mayfield in the second round.

[long suffering jets fan]

21 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

As far as I’m concerned the article screams give Petty a chance !!!!

If there was any potential he would have been playing already, same with Hack.

[long suffering jets fan]

8 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

The Vikings signed Case Keenum the Jets signed Josh McCown...........we need a GM who understands the QB and how important the position is. 

I don't think we would have done any better with Keenum.  McCown hasn't been the problem.

[Bugg]

51 minutes ago, rangerous said:

the original thread was about the jets needing to go after an offensive coach should bowles be launched.  that is just foolish thinking.  whatever coach they do hire needs, as you say, to be involved in the whole team and understand both offense and defense.  but you want to offenses of a guy like chip kelley?  jerry glanville was another one of those chuck and duckers and he failed with the oilers and the falcons.  who knows what coslet was trying to run with the jets.

and, i will say right now, if this jets team had a good run game, they would be very tough to beat.

A good OL is a good thing.Jets had the very best running game in the NFL in 2009. In fact arguably it was one of the best running offenses in the league for a while. And yet all they did was win 9 games, no better than the Favre team the year before that was a viewed as a failure.

Running the ball well is certainly a good thing. If you can run effectively late in games with the lead or early in the game to keep the defense on it's heels, even better. But passing offense wins games.  And there is a choice besides the 3 yards and a cloud of dust of Edwards, Ryan and Bowles and Chip Kelly and Jerry Glanville. Not asking anyone to run a post every down. Running Petty out there with some hurry up would not be all that hard to do. As far as dumbed down; how many run/run/incomplete Jets 3 and outs are "sophisticated"? Are you kidding? The offense under Bowles is braindead crap. 

Petty was a very effective college passer, and getting him in there and running plays in a style that might work with him is not crazy. And really, he's not in there so we have no idea if he can do it in the NFL. In a cap sport you need to know if your draft picks can play. And the Jets RE Petty have no idea because they need 38 year old hack McCown to hand off 40 times a game for a 4-6 team? Wow.

[Mogglez]

2 hours ago, peebag said:

well it's better than your homerific view on everything.

How dare you want to talk about Mike Maccagnan here.

[Jetster]

7 hours ago, Bugg said:

A good OL is a good thing.Jets had the very best running game in the NFL in 2009. In fact arguably it was one of the best running offenses in the league for a while. And yet all they did was win 9 games, no better than the Favre team the year before that was a viewed as a failure.

Running the ball well is certainly a good thing. If you can run effectively late in games with the lead or early in the game to keep the defense on it's heels, even better. But passing offense wins games.  And there is a choice besides the 3 yards and a cloud of dust of Edwards, Ryan and Bowles and Chip Kelly and Jerry Glanville. Not asking anyone to run a post every down. Running Petty out there with some hurry up would not be all that hard to do. As far as dumbed down; how many run/run/incomplete Jets 3 and outs are "sophisticated"? Are you kidding? The offense under Bowles is braindead crap. 

Petty was a very effective college passer, and getting him in there and running plays in a style that might work with him is not crazy. And really, he's not in there so we have no idea if he can do it in the NFL. In a cap sport you need to know if your draft picks can play. And the Jets RE Petty have no idea because they need 38 year old hack McCown to hand off 40 times a game for a 4-6 team? Wow.

In 2009 we had a rookie QB who was flying by the seat of his pants & even with that great running game was not experienced enough to take advantage of the play action game. Sanchez could not go through progressions which led to crushing interceptions.

The Jets were the 1st team to lose a game in which they ran for 300 yards vs the Bills because Sanchez threw 5 picks. Think about that for a moment. I bet the all 22 tape had guys wide open but Sanchez just zoned in on one guy because he was unable to truly see the field. That was the year the Jets needed a veteran QB. They might have had home playoff games.

[Augustiniak]

21 hours ago, Jetster said:

This article confirms a lot of Jet fans beliefs that if you draft Baker Mayfield & complete the infrastructure around him, good Oline, weapons, above average defense, have Morton & Bates put in offensive plays he's comfortable with he can succeed. I agree, he's Case Keenum with a far superior arm & better movement skills throwing on the run.

Lamar Jackson, same thing, only slightly different offense. I would look at KC and what Reid does for Smith & Caroina and how Cam is used. I know there are many Jet fans who think Jackson is gonna suck, but I think being put in the right circumstance he could be RGIII exciting without the injuries. Jacksons speed would put so much pressure on a defense it would be ridiculous. There are many QBs who can scramble but Jackson is the type if he has a lane to the outside, 3rd & 6, is like nothing! 2.6 seconds & he's already gone 25 yards. 

I just want to finally see a Jet team with offensive strengths! I want to see an offense that fits with the team name...The Jets. They are so f*cking BORING. 

mayfield is a way more naturally accurate passer than jackson.  mayfield seems perfect for bates' saints offense.  i just don't see mccagnan deviating from his vision of what a qb should be, 6'4" tall.

[rangerous]

9 hours ago, Bugg said:

A good OL is a good thing.Jets had the very best running game in the NFL in 2009. In fact arguably it was one of the best running offenses in the league for a while. And yet all they did was win 9 games, no better than the Favre team the year before that was a viewed as a failure.

Running the ball well is certainly a good thing. If you can run effectively late in games with the lead or early in the game to keep the defense on it's heels, even better. But passing offense wins games.  And there is a choice besides the 3 yards and a cloud of dust of Edwards, Ryan and Bowles and Chip Kelly and Jerry Glanville. Not asking anyone to run a post every down. Running Petty out there with some hurry up would not be all that hard to do. As far as dumbed down; how many run/run/incomplete Jets 3 and outs are "sophisticated"? Are you kidding? The offense under Bowles is braindead crap. 

Petty was a very effective college passer, and getting him in there and running plays in a style that might work with him is not crazy. And really, he's not in there so we have no idea if he can do it in the NFL. In a cap sport you need to know if your draft picks can play. And the Jets RE Petty have no idea because they need 38 year old hack McCown to hand off 40 times a game for a 4-6 team? Wow.

if those jet teams couldn't run, sanchez would've looked even worse.  even the patsies can run effectively.  we don't need a return to the oj 2000 yard seasons but there has to be enough so that they can control the game in the later quarters.  imo the college players aren't taught to run block very well. and it's not the passing on third down that's the problem with the jets.  it's their inability to get 3 and 1 running.  they have one of the highest third down passing percentages in the league.

as for petty, i liked the way he was always trying to look down the field but he just didn't seem to feel the pressure very well and ate the ball too much.  of course getting clobbered the way he was didn't help and it does seem he's a little fragile.

[Lith]

51 minutes ago, rangerous said:

if those jet teams couldn't run, sanchez would've looked even worse.  even the patsies can run effectively.  we don't need a return to the oj 2000 yard seasons but there has to be enough so that they can control the game in the later quarters.  imo the college players aren't taught to run block very well. and it's not the passing on third down that's the problem with the jets.  it's their inability to get 3 and 1 running.  they have one of the highest third down passing percentages in the league.

as for petty, i liked the way he was always trying to look down the field but he just didn't seem to feel the pressure very well and ate the ball too much.  of course getting clobbered the way he was didn't help and it does seem he's a little fragile.

Agree with most of your comments.  The one issue I have is the 3rd down passing. 

You are right that McCown has one of the best completion percentages in the league -- he is 71 of 96 on 3rd down.  74%.  But only 42 of those 71 completions have gone for first downs.  Add in 12 sacks on 3rd down and he has converted on 42 of 108 3rd down passing plays.  A check down completion on 3rd and long boosts that percentage but doesn't help you maintain possession of the ball.

Cam Newton, by comparison, is only 55 of 98 on 3rd down (56%) but 42 of his 55 completions have gone for first downs.  Add in Cam's 8 sacks on 3rd down and he has converted 42 of 106 3rd down passing plays.  Cam's 56% has resulted in almost identical # of 3rd down conversions as McCown's 74%.  I only chose Cam as a comparison because we are playing against him today.  I am not sure how these numbers compare against the rest of the league.

 

[Bugg]

Even if you run the ball very well, at some point in the season or the playoffs defenses are going to put 8 guys in the box, have the LBs and DBs cheat up and dare you to throw something deeper than a 4 yard flat dumpoff. And spare some times when either pre-surgery Chad Pennington, Vinny Testaverde or Brett Favre could do that, the Jets offense since Johnson took ownership  has not been able to overcome that. And that run/run/desperate pass on 3rd down doesn't work when the defense figures you out. 

But only 42 of those 71 completions have gone for first downs.  Add in 12 sacks on 3rd down and he has converted on 42 of 108 3rd down passing plays.  A check down completion on 3rd and long boosts that percentage but doesn't help you maintain possession of the ball. 

THE CAPTAIN CHECKDOWN STUFF IS BAD FOOTBALL. ANYONE WHO PRETENDS OTHERWISE IS A FOOL. 

[Beerfish]

The annual or semi annual grossly overrating vet jag qb situation.  For every Rich Gannon there are 10 fitzpaticks, keenums, grbacs.

Keenum is playing pretty well but he has good weapons and an all world defense.  When the heat is on this guy will fold.l

[Philc1]

20 hours ago, Larz said:

All 5 of the vikes o-line are rated top 10 in the NFL

That's why they are winning

Yes and they have a good D

 

keenum is an ok game manager

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The annual or semi annual grossly overrating vet jag qb situation.  For every Rich Gannon there are 10 fitzpaticks, keenums, grbacs.

Keenum is playing pretty well but he has good weapons and an all world defense.  When the heat is on this guy will fold.l

Watch Mac sign Keenum to $70 mil and people on this site get excited