The Idzik 12 vs. Macc's first draft: Which was worse?

[Skeptable]

2 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

I was mostly just stating who is still on the roster. But yeah, Im not big on Leo at all and would hesitate to pay him a big contract. Hindsight should have taken Gurley but the top of that draft did suck though

Gurley was the ONLY player after pick 6 in the first round that is still a viable player in the NFL or better then Leo.

[Beerfish]

Which one of them is worse at drafting Wr's?

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Even if he did go 0/6 like you are implying... there was almost no talent in that draft... Idzik draft was loaded with all-star talent.. 

 

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

FYI much has been made about the talent Idzik missed out on in 2014.  Here's the notable players who Macc passed on in 2015:

• 1st round:  RB Todd Gurley
• 2nd round:  G Ali Marpet, EDGE Preston Smith, CB Ronald Darby, DE Frank Clark, G/C Mitch Morse
• 3rd round:  RB David Johnson, DE Trey Flowers, EDGE Danielle Hunter
• 4th round:  EDGE Za'Darius Smith, WR Stefon Diggs, S Adrian Amos, WR Jamison Crowder, DT Grady Jarrett
• 5th round:  S Quandre Diggs
• 7th round:  OT Trent Brown 

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Which one of them is worse at drafting Wr's?

Tough one. 

Devin Smith, ArDarius Stewart, Chad Hansen

vs.

Quincy Enunwa, Jalen Saunders and Shaq Evans. 

With Idzik missing out on Brandin Cooks, Jarvis Landry, Davante Adams and John Brown in 2014 and Macc missing out on Mike Williams, Juju Smith-Schuster, Kenny Golladay and Cooper Kupp in 2017.

[GreenFish]

Idzik 12 is definitely worse. We got one player in Enunwa. We needed a WR that draft. The draft was a historic draft for WRs. It was an incredible undertaken by Idzik. But he managed to miss on 11 of the 12 picks.  An 8% success rate. 

2015 was a bad draft as well. Leo is an above average player and stays healthy. He’s more valuable than Enunwa who we hope can get passed his injuries. 

Idzik set this franchise back years. We’ve just come out of the cave. If Macc were to be replaced, a new GM has some young players to work with. 

[GreenFish]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Tough one. 

Devin Smith, ArDarius Stewart, Chad Hansen

vs.

Quincy Enunwa, Jalen Saunders and Shaq Evans. 

With Idzik missing out on Brandin Cooks, Jarvis Landry, Davante Adams and John Brown in 2014 and Macc missing out on Mike Williams, Juju Smith-Schuster, Kenny Golladay and Cooper Kupp in 2017.

Robby swings it though. An UDFA. He’s had more success than Enunwa. He already has more REC, Yards, and TDs than Enunwa.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Robby swings it though. An UDFA. He’s had more success than Enunwa. He already has more REC, Yards, and TDs than Enunwa.

The question was who was worse at DRAFTING WR's.  Anderson was a nice find, but given that every team picks up something like 12-15 UDFA's every year (in 2017 the average was 14.5 per team), so its not exactly impressive to find a gem once every few years.  When you draft a player, you're putting your name and reputation on the line, and people will scrutinize those picks for years to come. 

This stat further demonstrates what I'm talking about here:

https://www.catscratchreader.com/2018/5/22/17378036/nfl-undrafted-free-agents-play-more-often-than-you-probably-think

Quote

In 2017 there were 774 NFL players who appeared in at least 40-percent of offensive or defensive snaps. A total of 133 of these 774 players (17-percent) were UDFAs.

 

[GreenFish]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The question was who was worse at DRAFTING WR's.  Anderson was a nice find, but given that every team picks up something like 10-15 UDFA's every year, its not exactly impressive to find a gem once every few years.  When you draft a player, you're putting your name and reputation to that player. 

That’s fine. 

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The question was who was worse at DRAFTING WR's.  Anderson was a nice find, but given that every team picks up something like 12-15 UDFA's every year (in 2017 the average was 14.5 per team), so its not exactly impressive to find a gem once every few years.  When you draft a player, you're putting your name and reputation on the line, and people will scrutinize those picks for years to come. 

I am learning stuff here:

-7th round player, that does not make the squad- Bad pick

-Signed UDFA makes squad as a starter- Not worthy of a debate.

 

[CTM]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The question was who was worse at DRAFTING WR's.  Anderson was a nice find, but given that every team picks up something like 12-15 UDFA's every year (in 2017 the average was 14.5 per team), so its not exactly impressive to find a gem once every few years.  When you draft a player, you're putting your name and reputation on the line, and people will scrutinize those picks for years to come. 

This stat further demonstrates what I'm talking about here:

https://www.catscratchreader.com/2018/5/22/17378036/nfl-undrafted-free-agents-play-more-often-than-you-probably-think

 

yet, you are arguing for Idzik 12 being better for hitting on 1 of 12 picks from a better pool players than UDFA's

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I am learning stuff here:

-7th round player, that does not make the squad- Bad pick

-Signed UDFA makes squad as a starter- Not worthy of a debate.

There's a big difference between a 7th rounder and a UDFA.  When you're a 7th round pick you get a 4-year contract, and even the very last pick in the draft makes 13 % more than an average UDFA.  And unless you're a "priority UDFA", you get very little guaranteed money. 

Its such a big difference that it was Mike Pettine's "last straw" with Rex in 2011 when Rex overruled the GM/scouts to take Mark Sanchez's friend Scotty McKnight in the 7th round.  Pettine felt it was an honor to get drafted that shouldn't be taken lightly, and that there was no chance any other team would scoop up McKnight in the UDFA period.  That was all laid out in Collision Low Crossers.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, CTM said:

yet, you are arguing for Idzik 12 being better for hitting on 1 of 12 picks from a better pool players than UDFA's

I'm arguing 1/12 is better than 0/6 and 1 good year out of Brandon Marshall. 

[CTM]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm arguing 1/12 is better than 0/6 and 1 good year out of Brandon Marshall. 

lol, so it's 0-6 now eh and Idzik is getting credit for a guy that's never started 16 games. 

You've gone full bizzaro Pac

 

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

There's a big difference between a 7th rounder and a UDFA.  When you're a 7th round pick you get a 4-year contract, and even the very last pick in the draft makes 13 % more than a UDFA.  And unless you're a "priority UDFA", you get very little guaranteed money. 

Its such a big difference that it was Mike Pettine's "last straw" with Rex in 2011 when Rex overruled the GM/scouts to take Mark Sanchez's friend Scotty McKnight in the 7th round.  That was all layed out in Collision Low Crossers.

What are we arguing here? Picks the GM make, or what is better for the players? I am confused.

[GreenFish]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm arguing 1/12 is better than 0/6 and 1 good year out of Brandon Marshall. 

Quincy Enunwa has 118 receptions in his entire career. Leo made the pro bowl and has been productive his entire career. How can you say Enunwa is a hit but not Leo?

[JustInFudge]

Pretty simple.  Leo > Quincy.

Mac wins this disgusting battle of who's turd has more nuts in it. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

Are you ____ kidding me?  The Idzik draft was so f-ing bad that it took me five years before I believed a front office could build a team through the draft again!

The Jets drafting Ardarius Stewart and Chad Hansen in the 3rd and 4th rounds restored your faith in building through the draft? 

[Lith]

13 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Quincy Enunwa has 118 receptions in his entire career. Leo made the pro bowl and has been productive his entire career. How can you say Enunwa is a guy but not Leo?

Agreed.  I like Quincy, but I think he is overrated by our fan base. 

He has only had 1 productive season.  2016 is his only seasn with more than 40 receptions, the only season with 500 yards and his only season with more than 1 TD.  A guy like that on any other team, and we would label him a jag.  He has averaged 3 catches per game and 40 yards per game throughout his career.  I hope he proves that 2016 was not the outlier and he gives us that type production going forward, but aside from that one season, he has not been very productive.

[Jetsfan80]

35 minutes ago, CTM said:

lol, so it's 0-6 now eh and Idzik is getting credit for a guy that's never started 16 games. 

You've gone full bizzaro Pac

  

Its not 0/6 yet.  But if he proves undeserving of a 2nd contract after a year with Gregg Williams, then yes, that's 0/6.  When you draft a guy at a non-premium position at 6, the bare minimum on that being a hit is him getting a 2nd contract.  Again, IF that's the case, I'd rather have Vic Beasley and his one good year (29.5 career sacks) in hindsight over Leonard Williams if all we're gonna get out of his 5 years here is a 2021 compensatory 3rd rounder.  Especially since we just burned a # 3 overall pick to draft a guy at the same position. 

Meanwhile, we're paying Enunwa based on what we hope he produces, no?  So if he has a great season while Leo gets let go after '19 that'll be another mark in the "Idzik 12" column over Macc's 2015 blunder.

I'll be interested to re-visit this after the season. 

[Jetsfan80]

40 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Quincy Enunwa has 118 receptions in his entire career. Leo made the pro bowl and has been productive his entire career. How can you say Enunwa is a hit but not Leo?

 

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its not 0/6 yet.  But if he proves undeserving of a 2nd contract after a year with Gregg Williams, then yes, that's 0/6.  When you draft a guy at a non-premium position at 6, the bare minimum on that being a hit is him getting a 2nd contract.  Again, IF that's the case, I'd rather have Vic Beasley and his one good year (29.5 career sacks) in hindsight over Leonard Williams if all we're gonna get out of his 5 years here is a 2021 compensatory 3rd rounder.  Especially since we just burned a # 3 overall pick to draft a guy at the same position. 

Meanwhile, we're paying Enunwa based on what we hope he produces, no?  So if he has a great season while Leo gets let go after '19 that'll be another mark in the "Idzik 12" column over Macc's 2015 blunder.

I'll be interested to re-visit this after the season. 

 

Also, Enunwa was a 6th round pick.  Leonard Williams was # 6 overall.  Vastly different expectations, no?

Where the guy was taken must be taken into account when determining if a player is a "hit".  Enunwa is a definite hit in Round 6, especially since he already has gotten his 2nd contract.  Leonard Williams.....well lets just hope he has a big year ahead of him. 

And obviously, having said all that, Leonard Williams at 6 was a FAR better pick than Calvin Pryor at # 18 overall.  Especially since Ha Ha Clinton-Dix went 3 picks later.  If we absolutely had to take a Safety there we could have just taken Clinton-Dix.  If Macc had gone in a different direction at 6 the only pick to be made there would have been Vic Beasley (in an attempt to get a true EDGE guy) or Gurley. 

[Smashmouth]

please stop

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

This completely ignores that Idzik came into the job with no cap space and had to replace forty of Rex’s personal friends and family members from a bottom three roster, all the while dealing with an entitled, juvenile head coach who was leading a very loud and very obvious whisper campaign against him for not signing DRC upon entering the building. Maccagnan inherited a team with $70 mil in cap space in the primary stages of an actual rebuild and got a milquetoast head coach to work with/around. Idzik is a saint who died for Tannenbaum’s sins.

Bottom three roster?  They were 6-10.  Rex Ryan.  Great coach or greatest coach? 

[CTM]

47 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its not 0/6 yet.  But if he proves undeserving of a 2nd contract after a year with Gregg Williams, then yes, that's 0/6.  When you draft a guy at a non-premium position at 6, the bare minimum on that being a hit is him getting a 2nd contract.  Again, IF that's the case, I'd rather have Vic Beasley and his one good year (29.5 career sacks) in hindsight over Leonard Williams if all we're gonna get out of his 5 years here is a 2021 compensatory 3rd rounder.  Especially since we just burned a # 3 overall pick to draft a guy at the same position. 

Meanwhile, we're paying Enunwa based on what we hope he produces, no?  So if he has a great season while Leo gets let go after '19 that'll be another mark in the "Idzik 12" column over Macc's 2015 blunder.

I'll be interested to re-visit this after the season. 

If we don't resign him we will get a pick back either view comp or trade which isn't a 0. Way to premature to be saying 0/6

[Jetsfan80]

16 minutes ago, CTM said:

If we don't resign him we will get a pick back either view comp or trade which isn't a 0. Way to premature to be saying 0/6

3rd round compensatory pick out of a # 6 overall selection is not a great exchange rate.  And do you think any team out there is going to trade for him at this point when they know he's about to be a UFA?

It's not all that premature.  With Quinnen Williams on the roster I find it hard to believe we're going to extend Leonard Williams' contract even if he has a very good year.

[slats]

25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

3rd round compensatory pick out of a # 6 overall selection is not a great exchange rate.  And do you think any team out there is going to trade for him at this point when they know he's about to be a UFA?

It's not all that premature.  With Quinnen Williams on the roster I find it hard to believe we're going to extend Leonard Williams' contract even if he has a very good year.

After five years as, at least, a solid starter. It's not terrible. 

People talk about solving issues in the draft for the next decade, but what you're really doing is trying to solve them for the next four or five years and then you're signing a free agent for free agent money. 

I tend to agree with you that Leo is unlikely to be resigned, but it's not impossible - especially if Williams & Williams prove to be a force in the middle of the field. Having Leo on a big money deal while Quinnen is on a rookie deal would not be the worst thing. Then you can let Leo walk after another four years where you'll probably still get a decent comp pick for him. 

Getting five solid seasons and a 3rd round comp pick is not a zero. That's ridiculous. Vernon Gholston is a zero. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

After five years as, at least, a solid starter. It's not terrible. 

People talk about solving issues in the draft for the next decade, but what you're really doing is trying to solve them for the next four or five years and then you're signing a free agent for free agent money.  

I tend to agree with you that Leo is unlikely to be resigned, but it's not impossible - especially if Williams & Williams prove to be a force in the middle of the field. Having Leo on a big money deal while Quinnen is on a rookie deal would not be the worst thing. Then you can let Leo walk after another four years where you'll probably still get a decent comp pick for him.  

Getting fives solid seasons and a 3rd round comp pick is not a zero. That's ridiculous. Vernon Gholston is a zero.  

Never said its a "zero".  Only that you can't really call it a "hit".  Not every pick is either a hit or a bust.  There's a middle ground there. 

[slats]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Never said its a "zero".  Only that you can't really call it a "hit".  Not every pick is either a hit or a bust.  There's a middle ground there. 

 

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its not 0/6 yet.  But if he proves undeserving of a 2nd contract after a year with Gregg Williams, then yes, that's 0/6.

 

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm arguing 1/12 is better than 0/6 and 1 good year out of Brandon Marshall. 

Oh. I must've misread. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its not 0/6 yet.  But if he proves undeserving of a 2nd contract after a year with Gregg Williams, then yes, that's 0/6.  When you draft a guy at a non-premium position at 6, the bare minimum on that being a hit is him getting a 2nd contract.  Again, IF that's the case, I'd rather have Vic Beasley and his one good year (29.5 career sacks) in hindsight over Leonard Williams if all we're gonna get out of his 5 years here is a 2021 compensatory 3rd rounder.  Especially since we just burned a # 3 overall pick to draft a guy at the same position. 

Meanwhile, we're paying Enunwa based on what we hope he produces, no?  So if he has a great season while Leo gets let go after '19 that'll be another mark in the "Idzik 12" column over Macc's 2015 blunder.

I'll be interested to re-visit this after the season. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Never said its a "zero".  Only that you can't really call it a "hit".  Not every pick is either a hit or a bust.  There's a middle ground there. 

@slats already kind of made my point, but I completely disagree with your 2nd contract reasoning. Whether you sign a guy to a 2nd contract is totally irrelevant to whether he was a good draft pick or not.  If a top 6 pick is out of the league before his 2nd contract, that is one thing, but if we fail to re-sign Leonard, that has no bearing on how good of a pick he was.  In fact, giving out big 2nd contracts is more a function of market value, cap space, need and spendy GM. 

By any measure, Muhammad Wilkerson was an excellent draft pick at #30 overall.  He did get a 2nd contract, but it was a mistake.  If he signed a big deal with the Packers instead, does that diminish the pick?  Demario Davis didn't get a 2nd contract with the Jets, but Eric Smith did.  Does that make Smith a better pick? 

[Skeptable]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

FYI much has been made about the talent Idzik missed out on in 2014.  Here's the notable players who Macc passed on in 2015:

• 1st round:  RB Todd Gurley
• 2nd round:  G Ali Marpet, EDGE Preston Smith, CB Ronald Darby, DE Frank Clark, G/C Mitch Morse
• 3rd round:  RB David Johnson, DE Trey Flowers, EDGE Danielle Hunter
• 4th round:  EDGE Za'Darius Smith, WR Stefon Diggs, S Adrian Amos, WR Jamison Crowder, DT Grady Jarrett
• 5th round:  S Quandre Diggs
• 7th round:  OT Trent Brown 

Thank you for proving my point... there was almost no talent if that is all you can find out of 255 draft picks... 

Look at the 2014 draft... there are multiple potential Hall of Famers.... Many Pro-Bowlers... 

The difference is vast... and twice the picks

[CTM]

38 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

3rd round compensatory pick out of a # 6 overall selection is not a great exchange rate.  And do you think any team out there is going to trade for him at this point when they know he's about to be a UFA?

It's not all that premature.  With Quinnen Williams on the roster I find it hard to believe we're going to extend Leonard Williams' contract even if he has a very good year.

I never said it was a good return but it's a return, not 0.

This is silly, you are obsessed

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Thank you for proving my point... there was almost no talent if that is all you can find out of 255 draft picks... 

Look at the 2014 draft... there are multiple potential Hall of Famers.... Many Pro-Bowlers... 

The difference is vast... and twice the picks

How many of these "potential Hall of Famers" did we pass on?  Maccagnan picked 12 picks higher in 2015 than Idzik did in 2014. 

[Skeptable]

14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

How many of these "potential Hall of Famers" did we pass on?  Maccagnan picked 12 picks higher in 2015 than Idzik did in 2014. 

None of them would have reached the Jets pick at 18 if thats your point... but they did pass on multiple pro-bowlers and with as many picks as they had they had the ability to move up in the draft which they did not do. There was no reason to keep all 12 and not move at all... 

Also there is a very high amount of players still playing in the NFL (solid players) from 2014.... not as many from 2015... I do not have the stat in front of me but the amount of players out of the NFL drafted in 2015 is higher then 2014... 

and to come out of a draft with 12 players and only 1 of them is still in the NFL is extraordinarily hard to do. 

And how many Hall of Famers are in the 2014 draft

[Jetsfan80]

I never said it was a good return but it's a return, not 0.
This is silly, you are obsessed

I think it’s been a pretty good discussion. Why did it have to come to you accusing me of going full bizarro Pac?

[Jetsfan80]

Thank you for proving my point... there was almost no talent if that is all you can find out of 255 draft picks... 
Look at the 2014 draft... there are multiple potential Hall of Famers.... Many Pro-Bowlers... 
The difference is vast... and twice the picks

I posted that list already earlier in the thread. There was about an equal number of impact players that Idzik missed out on. Though keep in mind he was picking 18th, so I didn’t include players from 1-17.

[Jetsfan80]

FYI much has been made about the talent Idzik missed out on in 2014.  Here's the notable players who Macc passed on in 2015:

• 1st round:  RB Todd Gurley
• 2nd round:  G Ali Marpet, EDGE Preston Smith, CB Ronald Darby, DE Frank Clark, G/C Mitch Morse
• 3rd round:  RB David Johnson, DE Trey Flowers, EDGE Danielle Hunter
• 4th round:  EDGE Za'Darius Smith, WR Stefon Diggs, S Adrian Amos, WR Jamison Crowder, DT Grady Jarrett
• 5th round:  S Quandre Diggs
• 7th round:  OT Trent Brown

 
Compare that to who Idzik passed on in 2014:

• 1st round:  WR Brandin Cooks, EDGE Demarcus Lawrence, EDGE Dee Ford, S Ha Ha Clinton-Dix
• 2nd round:  WR Davante Adams, WR Jarvis Landry
• 3rd round:  G Gabe Jackson, G Trai Turner, WR John Brown, RB Jerick McKinnon
• 4th round:  RB Devonta Freeeman
• 5th round:  C Corey Linsley
• 6th round:  C Matt Paradis, CB T.J. Carrie
• 7th round:  OT Charles Leno

 
Both missed out on a ton of talent.  Its just that because we took such terrible WR's in the 4th round in 2014, that's what people remember most. 

@Skeptable