Another Draft Day Trade Rumor Surrounding the New York Jets

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, DoomProphet said:

I don't agree.

It’s ok to disagree. Which starting positions do you feel are less valuable?

The collective wisdom of all NFL teams in history say otherwise. It’s no accident center is the only starting position that’s never been drafted in the top 10, is the most extreme rarity to have been drafted in the top 15, and uncommon inside the top 20.

To me, and even I’m probably overvaluing center here, imo it’s a position that’s crucial to have someone who’s not terrible, but isn’t a big lift for the team if you go from merely competent to top 3.

Especially when we’re not in the RB-centric era and this team not employing a lot of man blocking. This isn’t adding Mawae because he was already proven and almost no one else could handle Ted Washington 1-on-1 when Parcells wanted to run the ball 500x/year.

[UntouchableCrew]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

To me, and even I’m probably overvaluing center here, imo it’s a position that’s crucial to have someone who’s not terrible, but isn’t a big lift for the team if you go from merely competent to top 3.

In general I've heard a lot of smart folks talk about the biggest thing with OL being not having an obvious weakness to the group -- a chink in the armor that is easily exploited. You're only as good as your weak link.

That said, more than other OL positions, I think a top notch center raises the water level of the whole group. Adds stability and is good for communication and consistency, especially with a young QB.

But in general I think Jets fans put emphasis on the position because every time we've been good in the last thirty years we've had great offensive line play anchored by a perennial Pro Bowl center. We probably overrated it because of that.

[Sperm Edwards]

39 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

In general I've heard a lot of smart folks talk about the biggest thing with OL being not having an obvious weakness to the group -- a chink in the armor that is easily exploited. You're only as good as your weak link.

That said, more than other OL positions, I think a top notch center raises the water level of the whole group. Adds stability and is good for communication and consistency, especially with a young QB.

But in general I think Jets fans put emphasis on the position because every time we've been good in the last thirty years we've had great offensive line play anchored by a perennial Pro Bowl center. We probably overrated it because of that.

I didn’t say a top notch center wasn’t helpful; only that it’s unnecessary. What’s necessary is to not have total garbage there.

Yes it’s obvious why Jets fans over-value the position. Thing is, those were very different teams with different offenses, never mind different blocking. This is the era of ~4000 passing yards being a Mendoza line, where non-superstar QBs sometimes throw for 5000 yards.

Those teams also had a lot more than that, including competent QB play. The centers didn’t create good QBs, or we’d have still made the playoffs with Mirer or Bollinger. What’s not falsifiable, because it didn’t happen, is if they’d have been demonstrably less successful with mere top-15 play for their centers, and if we’d have gotten further with the Ryan teams if they’d kept their only elite edge rusher instead of expecting every DB to stick with his man for 5 seconds.

But I digest…  

[Alka]

21 hours ago, DoomProphet said:

This is from an SI article talking about Kiper's mock draft hich has the Jets swapping picks with Bengals to get Iowa C Tyler Linderbaum. I don't think 31 is enough to get Linderbaum, I think he goes somewhere in the 20s personally.

Let me know what you guys think!

I think you're right.  He will be gone somewhere in the 20's.  If you remember, the Jets got Nick Mangold around #30 or so, but that was then, and this is now.

[Dcat]

21 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I have to say that I agree. 

I don't quite understand the obsession this fanbase has with Linderbaum. Looks a like a really good, safe prospect, but it seems to me that this team doesn't have the luxury of trading up for a center. 

This team needs impact players at premium positions. 

Take Luke Fortner later and use a premium pick for a premium player, which is not Linderbaum, IMO. I'm not as high on Tyler as the rest of the planet.

[Dcat]

19 hours ago, GangGreen Machine said:

I want a trade up for a WR so we aren't suckin' hind teat in the second round. 

perfect description of Mims right there.

[JetsMetsDevilsPA]

21 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I have to say that I agree. 

I don't quite understand the obsession this fanbase has with Linderbaum. Looks a like a really good, safe prospect, but it seems to me that this team doesn't have the luxury of trading up for a center. 

This team needs impact players at premium positions. 

I don't know dic* shi* about playing in the NFL but in my opinion this draft #1 needs to be able to protect Wilson.  How the hell is someone going to make a decision on if he is our future if he flushing out of the pocket on every down?  #2 give the damn guy weapons... you have no idea how strong his arm is or how accurate he is if he doesnt has capable receivers.  #3 YES, defense is extremely important and it needs to be addressed during the draft.  I LOVE Kyle Hamilton (and not just because I am a ND fan) he is extremely versatile and I think Salah could do wonders with the kid.  My hope is we address all 3 of these things via picks or trades that give more picks.  If I am the GM and want to be able to make a decision if Zac IS THE GUY then I am going WR/OL/PR.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, JetsMetsDevilsPA said:

I don't know dic* shi* about playing in the NFL but in my opinion this draft #1 needs to be able to protect Wilson.  How the hell is someone going to make a decision on if he is our future if he flushing out of the pocket on every down?  #2 give the damn guy weapons... you have no idea how strong his arm is or how accurate he is if he doesnt has capable receivers.  #3 YES, defense is extremely important and it needs to be addressed during the draft.  I LOVE Kyle Hamilton (and not just because I am a ND fan) he is extremely versatile and I think Salah could do wonders with the kid.  My hope is we address all 3 of these things via picks or trades that give more picks.  If I am the GM and want to be able to make a decision if Zac IS THE GUY then I am going WR/OL/PR.

The pass protection was decent last year. We also just signed a pro-bowl guard. 

We agree on WR. 

The Jets need a major upgrade at edge to help a defense that is predicated on getting to the QB with the front 4 - a defense that happened to be ranked at the very bottom of the league and was the worst Jets defense I've seen since . . . ? 

[Spoot-Face]

13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

False. Center is arguably the least important full time starting position in football. 

I'm legitimately curious why this is. I'd think, after LT and RT, C would be the next important position on the line, but maybe that's based on faulty logic.

For one, there's the argument that they touch the ball every snap (but I guess it shouldn't take a 1st rounder to be able to snap the frickin ball effectively.)

But don't they help with communication and calling out protections, or did Mangold only do that because Sanchez was a dummy?

Does it come down to defensive scheme, and maybe centers just typically take on less athletic and challenging opponents than guards, so they don't have to be as gifted themselves?

[Sperm Edwards]

22 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

I'm legitimately curious why this is. I'd think, after LT and RT, C would be the next important position on the line, but maybe that's based on faulty logic.

For one, there's the argument that they touch the ball every snap (but I guess it shouldn't take a 1st rounder to be able to snap the frickin ball effectively.)

But don't they help with communication and calling out protections, or did Mangold only do that because Sanchez was a dummy?

Does it come down to defensive scheme, and maybe centers just typically take on less athletic and challenging opponents than guards, so they don't have to be as gifted themselves?

Sanchez was a dummy.

The "they touch the ball every snap" is dumb, for the reason you said. 

Noting that communication & line calls as part of the value, that'd make drafting a center even less valuable, not more valuable, over having a competent veteran rather than a rookie out there. Of course someone else could make those calls, but yeah ideally it's the center. How often do you really want a rookie telling a bunch of more experienced/seasoned linemen what's what?

 

[Spoot-Face]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Noting that communication & line calls as part of the value, that'd make drafting a center even less valuable, not more valuable, over having a competent veteran rather than a rookie out there. Of course someone else could make those calls, but yeah ideally it's the center. How often do you really want a rookie telling a bunch of more experienced/seasoned linemen what's what?

That's a good point, but every veteran center starts as a rookie, so teams are going to have that dynamic at some point. I guess when you have a veteran QB who can handle calling protections on their own is when you can bring in a rookie center to groom.

As far as the Jets picking Linderbaum, several months ago I would've liked it (assuming not in top 10), but the more I think about it, the more I wouldn't want him in the first 2 rounds. Zach would probabIy benefit more from veteran continuity at C with McGovern, as much as I find him lukewarm, and we need starting impact players in the first 4 picks.

I guess I wouldn't hate it if he fell to 38, but I definitely don't want to trade up for him. I'd be happy with him in round 3, but judging by how people talk about him, he ain't falling that far.

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

That's a good point, but every veteran center starts as a rookie, so teams are going to have that dynamic at some point. I guess when you have a veteran QB who can handle calling protections on their own is when you can bring in a rookie center to groom.

As far as the Jets picking Linderbaum, several months ago I would've liked it (assuming not in top 10), but the more I think about it, the more I wouldn't want him in the first 2 rounds. Zach would probabIy benefit more from veteran continuity at C with McGovern, as much as I find him lukewarm, and we need starting impact players in the first 4 picks.

I guess I wouldn't hate it if he fell to 38, but I definitely don't want to trade up for him. I'd be happy with him in round 3, but judging by how people talk about him, he ain't falling that far.

I don't think that's true, unless it's just ambiguous wording, and you meant to say every veteran was once a rookie. They don't all start as rookies.

I'm with you (your last paragraph). As I said earlier, I wouldn't be breaking stuff in my house if they took him in round 2, but the difference between him & a competent veteran center isn't nearly the difference between using the top of round 2 to upgrade at LB, DB, EDGE, WR... whichever we don't take in round 1.

But no ****ing way do I give up another pick to take him in round 1. Half the advantage is the 5th year option and that's totally worthless for a center. Not unless you want to use the 5th yr option tag to pay a center $16-18MM if he's a pro bowler, and $13MM+ if he's not.

[DoomProphet]

3 hours ago, Alka said:

I think you're right.  He will be gone somewhere in the 20's.  If you remember, the Jets got Nick Mangold around #30 or so, but that was then, and this is now.

Yep. Not to mention if he makes it to 31 (most likely not going to happen) the Bengals still need OL help to protect Joe Burrow so I don't think Bengals would trade back. It's another silly Kiper take.

[Spoot-Face]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't think that's true, unless it's just ambiguous wording, and you meant to say every veteran was once a rookie. They don't all start as rookies.

I'm with you (your last paragraph). As I said earlier, I wouldn't be breaking stuff in my house if they took him in round 2, but the difference between him & a competent veteran center isn't nearly the difference between using the top of round 2 to upgrade at LB, DB, EDGE, WR... whichever we don't take in round 1.

But no ****ing way do I give up another pick to take him in round 1. Half the advantage is the 5th year option and that's totally worthless for a center. Not unless you want to use the 5th yr option tag to pay a center $16-18MM if he's a pro bowler, and $13MM+ if he's not.

Yep, I meant more so that "every veteran was once a rookie", and not that they all instantly start right away. But, I am also realizing that my counter point was stupid, because if they sit for a couple years, then, by definition, they are no longer a rookie, and thus there's no issue of a rookie telling a bunch of veterans what to do. I think I was conflating "rookie" with "1st year starter", and that's just not true.

Forget I said that. Sometimes I's dumb, lol.

Agree with everything else.

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, Spoot-Face said:

Yep, I meant more so that "every veteran was once a rookie", and not that they all instantly start right away. But, I am also realizing that my counter point was stupid, because if they sit for a couple years, then, by definition, they are no longer a rookie, and thus there's no issue of a rookie telling a bunch of veterans what to do. I think I was conflating "rookie" with "1st year starter", and that's just not true.

Forget I said that. Sometimes I's dumb, lol.

Agree with everything else.

Lol nah there’s always a first time on the field, rookie or not. But they don’t necessarily make the line calls in their first starting stints. Depends on the player, I’m sure. Also some get some PT at guard if they don’t start right away, or wherever there’s an injury. Also depends on the player, and the team’s other depth. 

[BCJet]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:21 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Sanchez was a dummy.

The "they touch the ball every snap" is dumb, for the reason you said. 

Noting that communication & line calls as part of the value, that'd make drafting a center even less valuable, not more valuable, over having a competent veteran rather than a rookie out there. Of course someone else could make those calls, but yeah ideally it's the center. How often do you really want a rookie telling a bunch of more experienced/seasoned linemen what's what?

 

Im surprsied its not discussed more but spot on - Sanchez had no mental aptitude for the position whatsoever.  Thankfully he had mangold to make the line calls but he didnt under stand field position or down and distance at all.  Absolutely brutal on-field intelligence.

As far as center I think you can take someone like Cam Jurgens (Nebraska center) and hopefully give him a year to develop and then move on from McGovern and open up that salary for another position. It also seems like centers can be developed as middle round picks into good players as opposed to OTs who tend to need to be drafted higher.