Curtis Martin--One Too Many? by Frank Barone :Front Page

[Barton]

Eric..I hate to hit you with facts but Martin had

his best year and yardage avg with Hackett as OC!

I know Martin is the only Jet Back in your lifetime!

But Trust me he ain't the best!Some day when you

have seen as much Football as I have you'll know the

difference!! :wink:

not so fast savage

I think I would trade Martin for LaMont if I could

But Martin is no chop liver, he'll be great for at least 1 more year.

[jetgreen13]

If the Runs don't end up in scores Teams don't

Win!! How many points did the Offense score vs

Pitt or the Pats?? Look that up while you at it..

Come to think of it..Martin had 5 runs over 20 and

Holmes only had 3..Don't let the fact he played

half a season take away from a Martin +2 Win!!

martin, as you love to point out got plenty of carries under hackett. he also never fumbled either..*psst*...coaches hate when you do that. look, this horse could not be more dead. anyone who reads your posts knows you have no use for martin. it's not like i'm gonna change your mind. i don't even get pissed about it anymore. i find it kinda' funny now. PS martin had 7 20 yard or more runs last season, not 5.

[Savage69]

not so fast savage

I think I would trade Martin for LaMont if I could

But Martin is no chop liver, he'll be great for at least 1 more year.

I never said Martin is chopped liver..But until

I see him excel in BIG Games like the Super Bowl

or the 98 Denver Game..To me he's a good back thats

a blue Colar worker that gives his all every game!

I respect him..But if you think he the third best

back of all Time you got alot to learn!! When I was

about your age I saw Jim Brown play at Manhasset HS!!

[jetgreen13]

I never said Martin is chopped liver..But until

I see him excel in BIG Games like the Super Bowl

or the 98 Denver Game..To me he's a good back thats

a blue Colar worker that gives his all every game!

I respect him..But if you think he the third best

back of all Time you got alot to learn!! When I was

about your age I saw Jim Brown play at Manhasset HS!!

good point savage. martin is not as good as brown.

[Barton]

I never said Martin is chopped liver..But until

I see him excel in BIG Games like the Super Bowl

or the 98 Denver Game..To me he's a good back thats

a blue Colar worker that gives his all every game!

I respect him..But if you think he the third best

back of all Time you got alot to learn!! When I was

about your age I saw Jim Brown play at Manhasset HS!!

I agree! Martin really is not physical enough to carry the jets in the postseason IMO

Which is why I kind of question the Blaylock signing, but he is a big play back so I like that.

[124]

Whatever.

I believe in Curtis and I believe he still has another 1,400 season or two left in him.

[Savage69]

Whatever.

I believe in Curtis and I believe he still has another 1,400 season or two left in him.

As a Jet Fan I hope your right!! As someone that

has seen many of the "Real Greats" decline..I can't

see it!!Dinger is not Hackett!! Blaylock may get

more carries then Lamont ever did including starting

games if Martin is just S0-So!!

[Jets28]

What have you become a mute lately 13?? Leading

Rusher if you give him more carries then anyone

else yes!! Put him on a equal basis or a Big

Game and he's Dog Doo Doo!!Hell Holmes had more

TD's playing in 8 games last year..And BTW points

count in the NFL.. :wink:

Points may count, but they don't get you into the playoffs...KC was no where near the playoffs this year either.I know curtis is getting older, but he has been injury free for a long time. And his work horse like mentality and perserverance worked out for us in the end. For whoever said we don't have a speedy receiver see Coles...he's pretty fast. Thats if that toe will stop throbbing...

[TomShane]

Eric..I hate to hit you with facts but Martin had

his best year and yardage avg with Hackett as OC!

I know Martin is the only Jet Back in your lifetime!

But Trust me he ain't the best!Some day when you

have seen as much Football as I have you'll know the

difference!! :wink:

Funniest line of all time. Not only does it belittle tiny Barton, but it slams the Jets at the same time! CLASSIQUE!!!!!!!!!!

[jetgreen13]

As a Jet Fan I hope your right!! As someone that

has seen many of the "Real Greats" decline..I can't

see it!!Dinger is not Hackett!! Blaylock may get

more carries then Lamont ever did including starting

games if Martin is just S0-So!!

last i checked, only the "real greats" make canton. even you have said many times martin is a HOFer. after posters questioned you on why you kill martin, of course. but never the less.

[PatsFanTX]

Dinger knows how to spring backs for long runs

Man, I didn't realize the Jets were getting a player-coach when the signed Dinger.

He must be one hell of a blocker.

[LionelRichie]

... you contradict your own point ...

... you say the pats would have started lamont last year, then say that curtis has an immovable contract ?!?

... which is it ? ... what the pats would have done is let their backup rb walk after paying their franchise rb star rb money ... they would not put themselves in cap hell by paying 2 players at the same position star player money... that is exactly what the jets FO did ... no sentimentality involved ... we kept l-j for last season to make a go of a shot at the big prize ... we were 2 makable fg's & a torn rotator cuff away from a battle with the giant... they made the smart, unemotional decision to let a potential superstar walk and keep our, already paid for, and aging warrior to remain our rock-toting beast ...

great work T-B ... we've got 10 years of chad leading our franchise ... 2 left with curtis ... as well as holding onto abe i expect to see a veteran OT addressed in the upcoming cuts ... as well as TE, CB, SS, DT, & P addressed there & via the draft ... most likely blaylock will have some opportunities this year ( that l-j never did) to show what he can do ... if it is not impressive enough, expect a rb early next season ...

l_j_r

i am saying that yes, cmart's contract is immovable and the jets cannot cut him; however, when you make a decision you want all the information available b/f making it. as far as lamont goes, the jets let him walk w/o full information b/c they insisted on running him into the ground in a wasted 03 season and then not giving him a look coming off that season in 04.

i say the pats would have started jordan in 04.

[stormshadow19]

Man, I didn't realize the Jets were getting a player-coach when the signed Dinger.

He must be one hell of a blocker.

You should see him on a pull. Fastest O-Lineman I've ever seen.

[jetgreen13]

Man, I didn't realize the Jets were getting a player-coach when the signed Dinger.

He must be one hell of a blocker.

maybe you need to reread your fancy article on the jets. you did write it of course, huh tx??

[PatsFanTX]

i say the pats would have started jordan in 04.

I disagree.

It's all hypothetical, but I think the Pats would have still started Martin.

The biggest difference would have been Jordan would have received alot more carries during the season.

[YJF]

I disagree.

It's all hypothetical, but I think the Pats would have still started Martin.

The biggest difference would have been Jordan would have received alot more carries during the season.

If The Pats had Curtis Martin. They never would have traded for Corey Dillon.

The anti-Martin group makes alot of good points but they sell Martin way too short. For not only what he means to his team on the field but off the field.

I guarantee you that if Lamont Jordan has any success. He's going to credit Curtis Martin for making him the pro that he has become.

[stormshadow19]

If The Pats had Curtis Martin. They never would have traded for Corey Dillon.

The anti-Martin group makes alot of good points but they sell Martin way too short. For not only what he means to his team on the field but off the field.

I guarantee you that if Lamont Jordan has any success. He's going to credit Curtis Martin for making him the pro that he has become.

And, I'd call you a liar... if for no other reason, alot of today's stars are build me first, so to speak. He'll credit himself first, then Al Davis for giving him a chance, blah, blah, blah, and probably never mention Martin. Just the nature of the beast, my friend.

[Savage69]

I guarantee you that if Lamont Jordan has any success. He's going to credit Curtis Martin for making him the pro that he has become.

And for the Hell of it YJF..Who does "I walked

on the Team as a Rookie and got all the carries"

credit for his success?? You Guys read too much of

this nice goody goody crap into what happens on a

football field..Show me one Game where Martin was

the Leader you say he is?? The Man hardly talks!

And if you want to say leads by example no wonder

we lost in 98 with 14 yds on 13 carries! You Guys

make it hard for me to like Martin even though I

do, because you give him these Magical qualities

that he doesn't have!Namath was a Leader,Klecko

was a Leader! Chad shows those qualities..Martin

is a good Guy but that don't put points on the

Board!! If Jordan goes to Heaven he may thank

Martin! But he knows where the endzone is and

always has if you saw him at Maryland! :wink:

[GimmeShelter]

Very nice article Faba.

The only thing I question is the "long runs" stat.

Jordan's longest run last year was 33 yards.

For his career he has 7 runs of more than 20 yards in roughly 1,300 carries or just about the same average as Martin has over his career.

I love LJ but this notion that he is breaking off all these long runs ala Barry Sanders or Eric Dickerson is not supported when you look at the stats.

Excellent article though for good debate and I am sure many will be following LJ's numbers next year.

We should pin the earlier LJ vs CM prediction thread to review next year.

[Savage69]

Very nice article Faba.

The only thing I question is the "long runs" stat.

Jordan's longest run last year was 33 yards.

For his career he has 7 runs of more than 20 yards in roughly 1,300 carries or just about the same average as Martin has over his career.

I love LJ but this notion that he is breaking off all these long runs ala Barry Sanders or Eric Dickerson is not supported when you look at the stats.

Excellent article though for good debate and I am sure many will be following LJ's numbers next year.

We should pin the earlier LJ vs CM prediction thread to review next year.

Dude share the Drugs!! Jordan has 1300 carries??

He was with the Jets 4 yr's so according to you

he had 325 carries a year?? I'm done tonite!

Any Logic is gone!! Nite all!!

[YJF]

And, I'd call you a liar... if for no other reason, alot of today's stars are build me first, so to speak. He'll credit himself first, then Al Davis for giving him a chance, blah, blah, blah, and probably never mention Martin. Just the nature of the beast, my friend.

I've already heard Lamont Jordan credit Curtis Martin in about a dozen interviews since he's signed with The Raiders.

You guys have never been in a locker room. You don't understand what kind of influence a player like Martin has on his teammates.

[stormshadow19]

I've already heard Lamont Jordan credit Curtis Martin in about a dozen interviews since he's signed with The Raiders.

You guys have never been in a locker room. You don't understand what kind of influence a player like Martin has on his teammates.

That's now... and if he has a huge season, like you've predicted? He won't credit anyone east of Denver. Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

[GimmeShelter]

Sorry Savage...wrong stat don't have a heart attack.

[TomShane]

Jordan changed his tune about being a "team" guy about halfway through last season when he knew that all he had to do was be a good soldier and somebody would throw him insane money. The worst case scenario for Lamont would have been to let Herm make him look like a pain-in-the-ass and deflate his value, thus letting the Jets potentially step in and drop the highest offer. If I was Lamont, and the Jets offered me the max, I'd still tell them to shove it up Herm's "Lamont will get more carries" ass and take the vet minimum somewhere else.

[YJF]

Jordan changed his tune about being a "team" guy about halfway through last season when he knew that all he had to do was be a good soldier and somebody would throw him insane money. The worst case scenario for Lamont would have been to let Herm make him look like a pain-in-the-a$$ and deflate his value, thus letting the Jets potentially step in and drop the highest offer. If I was Lamont, and the Jets offered me the max, I'd still tell them to shove it up Herm's "Lamont will get more carries" a$$ and take the vet minimum somewhere else.

Jets' Insider

By RICH CIMINI

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Herman Edwards' flare-up with running backs coach Bishop Harris in San Diego Saturday night over use of LaMont Jordan has been building for some time.

The Herm Edwards-Bishop Harris sideline altercation Saturday night in San Diego was a stunner, all right. Unfortunately, neither of the principals is saying what triggered the heated dispute.

The Jets' coach called it a "family matter," the explanation every coach uses when he really wants to say, "None of your business." Harris, the running backs coach, was equally tight-lipped. Reached last night at his office, he said, "I'm not talking about. It's over and done with."

Okay, so let's play connect the dots to paint the picture.

The first dot is the Curtis Martin-LaMont Jordan conundrum, an issue for three years. That's what precipitated the ugly sideline incident, but there may be more to it than that. Put the dots together, and it leads to Paul Hackett. Hey, it wouldn't be a controversy without Hackett, right?

Let's review:

Edwards wants a bigger role for Jordan - he's in favor of using the two backs at the same time in certain situations - and he blew a fuse after a play in which Jordan wasn't in the game.

The blowup came after Martin's 23-yard gain on a screen pass in the third quarter - actually, one of the Jets' better plays in their 20-17 overtime win. A close review of the TV tape showed that, after Martin was tackled, an angry Edwards confronted Harris.

Harris is in charge of substituting the players. Wearing a headset, he hears the play call from Hackett in the booth and shuttles the proper personnel in and out of the game. In a sense, Harris is the messenger.

Edwards tried to kill the messenger. Evidently, the messenger did (or said) something to push Edwards' hot button. It's hard to imagine this was a spur-of-the-moment incident; it had to be building. Edwards has taken a greater role in the offense, and perhaps he felt Harris and/or Hackett were undermining his authority. It's telling that, on the next three snaps, Jordan carried the ball, with Martin on the sideline.

******************************************************

[Bugg]

We've had this discussion "elsewhere".

Suffice to say-the school of thought that "Martin can still be The Man" has a major flaw. There's a reason martin was the oldest back ever to lead the NFL in rushing. Most backs are done at this age. Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell and Eric Dickerson were all retired before 32. In the 80+ years of NFL history, only 4 backs-Emmitt Smith, Franco Harris, Marcus Allen and John Riggins twice have rushed for 1K yards after their 32nd birthdays. Bettis just missed.

Some caveats-Allen and Riggins both had seasons midcareer where they were on the bench as Allen was or voluntarily retired like Riggins. Smith, Riggins and Harris were running behind HoF blockers. All 4 played with either HoF or close QBs in the 1000/old guy season, The Jets have a good, not great OL and QB, and Martin's played every year of his career as the featured back with no breaks.

After seeing those facts, how can you blithely say that in these circumstances "Martin still has 2 great seasons in him"? If he does, it bucks a huge trend. 2004 gurantees NOTHING in 2005. Runing backs, especially ones like MArtin that carry every game and get hit, will get hurt and slow down with age. If there something about Martin that makes him better than those guys? I don't see it. In fact I see diminished production and strethces of ineffectiveness against better defenses.

The Jordan ship has sailed. It would have been preferable to do the Faulk/Jackson thing the Rams did. But Martin's contract prevented it.

Also,if martin was that Harris/Riggins/Allen/Smith type, why weren't the jets able to run the ball out and get 1st downs late in 2 playoff games they led in the 4th quarter? granted, Hackett was damn obvious. But Martin was a better receiever than a runner in playoff games. Just repeating over and over that "MARTIN LED THE NFL IN RUSHING" didn't do a damn thing to make him productive in the playoffs.

This isn't baseball. If you liked Willie Mays with the Mets or worse, Emmitt Smith with the Cardinals, beware. Because when Martin goes down, it will be fast.

[Matt39]

Im sorry, but that whole Bishop/Herm sideline fiasco...Im almost positive Harris wanted Jordan in the game.

[stormshadow19]

It's much adou about nothing. Jordan isn't here, Martin is, and some people can't accept that. This is an issue where people will have to agree to disagree.

[Jetsfan80]

It's much adou about nothing. Jordan isn't here, Martin is, and some people can't accept that. This is an issue where people will have to agree to disagree.

It doesnt mean Bradway can't do something about it.

Once again, why is everyone so adamantly against drafting a RB in the 3rd or 4th round?

[Maxman]

This isn't baseball. If you liked Willie Mays with the Mets or worse, Emmitt Smith with the Cardinals, beware. Because when Martin goes down, it will be fast.

I know you have spent much more time looking at the numbers on this then I have. I just hope that Martin is the exception to the rule!

[l_j_r]

Most backs are done at this age. Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell and Eric Dickerson were all retired before 32

... the first four are terrible examples to use to support that curtis won't have enough left in the tank...

sanders and brown retired as the best in the game ... VOLUNTARILY ?! ... they did not have the heart or desire to continue ... brown went to be a movie star ... barry went on some crazy pub crawl in europe ... either over detroit's continued losing or not wanting to break payton's record...

... sayers was knocked out with injuries (i believe after about 6-8 seasons)...

... earl campbell was as smash-mouth as they come ... he is my favorite runningback (if not player) that i have ever seen play in the NFL in my 34 years... his style punished defenders & led him to a sad mental state to this day, but he punished his body to the utmost every single carry ... (l-j shows some of this style which is what i love about him) ... curtis is a slasher who tries to avoid the big hit ...

... i can't remember what ended dickerson's career, but AT BEST ... you are 1 of 5 in terms of picking good supporting rb's to argue curtis can't continue to do what he has done up to this point...

... there has been no indication to show the reigning rushing leader in the NFL can't have a good year for us this season...

... the best decision for our team was to continue to fight riding our war-horse curtis martin into battle...

... our money needs to be spent on veteran OT, SS, CB, DT, & P ... the salary-cap must be managed & our FO is doing a great job with this ...

... c-mart is not our concern ...

worry about getting players for those positions i've listed, worry about penny's shoulder, worry about a learning curve with dinger's O, worry about how tough our division is, worry that the skank you took home saturday night gave you crabs, ... but ... DO NOT WORRY ABOUT CURTIS ...old warrior WILL lead us to the promised land...

l_j_r

[YJF]

Im sorry, but that whole Bishop/Herm sideline fiasco...Im almost positive Harris wanted Jordan in the game.

That's incorrect. That's not how it went down. The facts are out there. People can ignore them if they want. I just presented you the facts but for two years, I had to hear about how Herm was anti Jordan and then we see Herm deck his own RB coach for not putting him into the game.

The naysayers were wrong. AGAIN.

The perception is that Herm and Jordan didn't like eachother. JUST NOT TRUE, That's not reality. Jordan and Herm were very close.

Jordan during an interview on ESPN Radio during the season talked about how he and Herm sat next to each other on every road trip.

Jordan wanted a starting job. Unfortunately with The Jets. There isn't one available at RB.

[stormshadow19]

It doesnt mean Bradway can't do something about it.

Once again, why is everyone so adamantly against drafting a RB in the 3rd or 4th round?

Who said I was against it? I never said I was for it or against it. Honestly, in my perspective, it depends on how the draft falls, if a RB should be taken. I don't think it's a desperate hole, but if it's BAP, then it should be taken.

[Bugg]

L J R-

Agreed. The point about the 1st four is that there are some great backs that at 32 no longer spend Sunday afternoons on the field.

I'm not knocking Matrin, merely pointing out facts.

You don't much address the second 4. Look, Martin's been the best of pros. But while I hope I'm wrong, if martin is as good this season as last it will be unprecedented. You're bucking 80+ years of trends. And if you look at the circumstances and credentials of the other 4, it's arguable that Martins' are the least among the 5. Our Ol seems to have trouble against bigger more physical defenses. And our QB has been hurt and inconsistent.

Put it this way-would you have rather had any of Smith, Allen, Riggins or Harris over Martin in those 2 playoff games at the same stage of their careers? Smith, Riggins and Harris were all more physical. And Martin simply isn't as dominant as any of'em. So please-make the arugument that we can expect Martin to outperform NFL history and any of these all-time greats(as is martin).

[l_j_r]

... with the first four, my whole point was the reason they weren't playing was either due to choice, or injury of which curtis (knock wood) has not succumbed to ...

... of the second four, emmitt, franco, marcus, & riggo ...

you state

the 80+ years of NFL history, only 4 backs-Emmitt Smith, Franco Harris, Marcus Allen and John Riggins twice have rushed for 1K yards after their 32nd birthdays.

... i take that to mean ... what qualities do i attribute curtis having that those rb's had ? ... please let me know if i'm incorrect with this ...

... easy answer ... 1.heart, 2.desire, 3.will, 4.grit, 5.talent 6.durability...

... many rb's are not willing to put forth all the work needed to continue to do what it takes to lead their nfl team ... all of these rb's have shown they have these 6 traits which are needed ... the first four all have to do with the effort they are willing to put into getting ready to put the "shoulder pads" back on, the 5th is necessary for them to be given an opportunity to go back out onto the field again, the last is that they were able to maintain remarkable physical health(knock wood 2nd time) on the field, which allowed them to continue playing longer than most...

... in regards to can he top the 1000 yard mark? ... again, the one caveat being will he not have an injury that he cannot fight through, i'd bet the house on it ...

... in terms of martin being the least quality rb on the list of smith, allen, harris, & riggins ... i'm not in disagreement with you ...

... in terms of will martin be as good as this past season ? i doubt it ... our offense will be much more opened up ... i'm hoping to see somewhere in the 1,200-1,400 range ... i have never tried to indicated that he will match this season's numbers...

... agreed on the abilities of our o-line ... their greatest assets are agility ... schemes ... shifts ... pulling out ... curtis's slashing style & ability to gauge when and where the hole or cut should be made work well together ... but ... when we come up against the big, physical, pounding d-lines ... they do give us problems...

... agreed that chad has an injury history ... much of martin's potential success will be synonymous with chad's health ... all signs point to him being ready to start the season, which is a huge relief ... can he make it through the year ? i don't know, but getting fiedler as a back-up was a very sound & astute decision by bradway ... teams will still be able to stack the line if penny is out for any significant time, but fiedler is at least servicable enough to help somewhat...

... all in all if penny is able to last 8 games & fielder the other 8+ i see curtis top the 1,000 mark ... if penny is able to play 10 or more curtis will top 1,200 ... if penny is able to play 14 or more curtis will top 1,400 ...

... my main point is i believe that curtis as our rb is not where you should be spending your energy worrying...

JMO (i think you've given me carpal tunnel syndrome now 8) )

l_j_r