The 3-4 Defense and whether it is the right fit

[arsenal1189]

The new coaching staff seems bent on playing some form of the 3-4 this upcoming season while making a complete transformation in the coming years. I may think the change actually is not that hard and will take a short amount of time, but I do think that the 3-4 defense will not utilize some of our more talented players.

The 3-4 Defense requires line-man that can occupy blockers, fill gaps, and in general take up space. The

[arsenal1189]

The Jonathan Vilma Problem:

Jon Vilma has always been compared to Ray Lewis in terms of size, skill, speed, and instinct. Then we can also logically say that Jon Vilma will react the same way as Ray Lewis did.

Now, Lewis is a great player who has always made plays whether it he was in the 3-4 or the 4-3, but the one thing I did note is that Lewis has more

[Alk]

Thoughts? Those were two excellent freakin' posts! You need to hang around here more often. It's late now but I'll have to read through it some more tomorrow.

[snow_monkey]

Well thought out post. Good job!

Personally, I think we are a couple of players short of what we need to play 3-4, but I'm guessing (hoping?) that we'll adress that in the next off-season/draft. This year, I think we are going to see both 3-4 and 4-3 used. In fact, I think i remember Mangini saying just that.

I've always liked the 3-4 formation, so I'm looking forward to seeing this develop.

[BwanaZulia]

They were saying the same thing about Zach Thomas last year when he went from the 4-3 to the 3-4. Of course he ended the year with the second most tackles in the NFL (only behind Vilma, but he missed 2/3 games) and was nominated to the Pro Bowl.

BZ

[raffyD]

Fantastic post bro, I couldn't stop reading the damn thing even though I knew how long it was. Those concerns you mention, you're not alone. Robertson is the big question mark yes, I don't think Vilma will be a problem though. He will still be a tackling machine.

[Maxman]

Robertson might be the top story going into camp (after Pennington of course). Aside from his knee issues....can he be a 3-4 NT? There is a LOT riding on him.

As was mentioned though I worry less about Vilma. I know the concerns, they are well documented. I just don't see him failing.

Great post btw Arsenal.

[PeterNorth09]

You fit the system to the players, not the other way around.

[arsenal1189]

The fact remains that we still have a choice and rather than forcing a un-fitting system into players who are our pillars, we can stick with an already established system

[ThunderbirdJet]

I will resist the temptation to cut and paste my post from TGG in this thread! Instead, I'll reguritate from memory.

There was a very good reason DRob had the only big contract that was NOT renegotiated this off season. If he can't play NT in the 3-4, he's gone next year.

Pouha was getting reps with the first team D in mini camp. This CS sees Pouha's potential. Whether or not he fulfills that potential is another issue. Jet fans are incredibly impatient, worse than the beat reporters sometimes. When he was drafted, he was a known, labeled project. Forget his draft position for the moment...... Pouha has all the measurables you want in a NT.

What he lacked was technique, stamina, and perhaps a mean streak. I saw marked improvement in his technique last year.

Do you remember when you first learned to drive? You had to think about which foot was what... gas... right...clutch...left foot. Well, that is what Pouha was learning last year. Shorter, choppier steps. Feet wider apart. how to use his arms to prevent getting locked up with an O lineman.

Until those things are automatic, like it's the left foot for the clutch.... you aren't ready for the road. Until a project like Pouha masters the techniques, it's hard to measure him. He may yet be the solution at NT.

The Jets will still use plenty of 4-3. Bryan Thomas is the wild card.... he can line up as an OLB, and then go into a stance. He can start as a down DE, and stand up. I expect to see a near 50-50 split in the use of 3-4 vs. 4-3. In some games, it could be 80% 3-4, the next, 80% 4-3.

Mangini learned this much from Belly.... be unpredictable. Be difficult to game plan against. Take advantage of creating mismatches.

[Jetlag]

Arsenal, great post man. Good to see you posting over here a little bit. Anyway, I disagree about DRob playing DE in this 3-4. His speed is not his problem what so ever, plus he has the size. He just was not ready to be the center anchor for a defense predicated on him creating a push in the middle. He apparently was not worth the #4 and unless he has a stellar year in '06 will be getting the official "Bust" title.

That said, I think if a larger body or more capable NT can play in the middle, DRob can use his speed (remember that was a huge factor in his selection) at DE in the 3-4. A spot that calls for a 280-300 lber. Richard Seymour played the spot pretty damn good and I think DRob has the natural talent to be as good as Seymour, at DE atleast. It's more a mental thing for DeWayne.

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

You fit the system to the players, not the other way around.

This is not an absolute.

I'll give examples of two coaches who get results doing it differently.

Bill Parcells runs a system, he knows what types of players he needs, and those are the players he obtains and keeps. Anyone who can't play in that system does not stay around too long. He's managed to win a couple of Super Bowls doing it his way.

OTOH, Joe Gibbs will take any offensive players and mold a system around what they do best. He won a Super Bowl pounding Riggins all the time and he also won a couple throwing the ball all over the lot. In both cases, he changed his philosophy and his system to fit his players.

It can work either way. What a coach really has to do is put the players in a position to succeed. You can argue whether Marv Levy is a great coach (and I don't think any team will ever go to 4 straight SBs again), but the cornerstone of his and the Bills success was that he was able to accurately evaluate talent in terms of what they were capable of, and he never asked anyone to do anything that they were not capable of.

[PeterNorth09]

This is not an absolute.

I'll give examples of two coaches who get results doing it differently.

Bill Parcells runs a system, he knows what types of players he needs, and those are the players he obtains and keeps. Anyone who can't play in that system does not stay around too long. He's managed to win a couple of Super Bowls doing it his way.

OTOH, Joe Gibbs will take any offensive players and mold a system around what they do best. He won a Super Bowl pounding Riggins all the time and he also won a couple throwing the ball all over the lot. In both cases, he changed his philosophy and his system to fit his players.

It can work either way. What a coach really has to do is put the players in a position to succeed. You can argue whether Marv Levy is a great coach (and I don't think any team will ever go to 4 straight SBs again), but the cornerstone of his and the Bills success was that he was able to accurately evaluate talent in terms of what they were capable of, and he never asked anyone to do anything that they were not capable of.

I'll give you two examples of coaches wrongly fitting players into systems they shouldn't be in: Herman Edwards and Eric Mangini.

When Edwards first got here in 2001, the players he inherited from Groh/Parcells were 3-4 defenzive players. Dumbass he was, he decided to try to implement a 4-3 scheme and hence the run defense went into the crapper.

Now you have Mangini trying to install a 3-4 with a group of players who are more suited for a 4-3. I'm sure Vilma will still get plenty of tackles but will he be as effective as an ILB as he was as a MLB? Probably not. What concerns me even more is Dewayne Robertson. The guy is not big enough to play Nose which is the most essential position in a 3-4.

[johnny green balls]

i'm with PN here, new scheme after drafting/acquiring guys with the other in mind=tough couple years.

[Sperm Edwards]

not quite the same thing, though. There's also a choice between implementing a new scheme (without all the pieces) while you're rebuilding (and need to see exactly what pieces are still needed), or implementing a new scheme when you're in win-now mode (without all the pieces). We all know who did the latter.

[quietjets]

The Jonathan Vilma Problem:

Jon Vilma has always been compared to Ray Lewis in terms of size, skill, speed, and instinct. Then we can also logically say that Jon Vilma will react the same way as Ray Lewis did.

Now, Lewis is a great player who has always made plays whether it he was in the 3-4 or the 4-3, but the one thing I did note is that Lewis has more

[NJ]

Great post Arsenal.

You play a defensive scheme because of it's virtue. If you don't have the players to fit the 3-4 it will become obvious pretty quickly and it won't take much of an opposing OC to pick it apart. Mangini has gone on record that we will play what works best situationaly and I have to believe he's smart enough to know what works from what doesn't. There's no doubt he wants the 3-4 to work for us and if D-Rob and others can't make it happen - they won't be here next year.

[StillerPaul]

Look, these linebackers, and I hear this all the time, 'Well, I just want to be free and run to the ball. I just want to be protected and run to the ball.' Well, who doesn't? What defensive player wouldn't want to not be blocked and run and make every tackle? But it just doesn't work that way. Every play that the offense runs is designed to have the most important guys on the play blocked. Maybe they are not going to block the free safety. Maybe they're not going to block the backside corner, but they don't run any plays where they don't block this guy or don't block that guy. As a defensive player, what your mentality really needs to be is, I have to defeat the guy who is assigned to block me to get to the ball.

That is the attitude that every player on your D needs to have in order to make it work IMO. The coaching staff should have that beat into players heads by opening week.

RDE Kimo Van Oelhoffen is a perfect player as well considering that he played in a 3-4 and can also move to the NT position. IMO a poor man

[StillerPaul]

Another thing that kinda bothers me is that Richard Seymore gets alot of credit and attention for being a great DL in the 3-4 but Casey Hampton mostly gets ignored. Casey was drafted the same year as Richard and has just as many pro-bowls i believe. He's the anchor and most vital part of the Steeler D IMO. He needs his props, people! lol

[PatsFanTX]

Another thing that kinda bothers me is that Richard Seymore gets alot of credit and attention for being a great DL in the 3-4 but Casey Hampton mostly gets ignored. Casey was drafted the same year as Richard and has just as many pro-bowls i believe. He's the anchor and most vital part of the Steeler D IMO. He needs his props, people! lol

Seymour has 4 Pro Bowls and Hampton has 2.

Also, the only reason he got his 2nd Pro Bowl was because Seymour was hurt and couldn't go.

PITTSBURGH -- Pittsburgh Steelers nose tackle Casey Hampton will replace the injured Richard Seymour of the New England Patriots on the AFC Pro Bowl roster.

Hampton, in his fifth season, also played in the Pro Bowl following the 2003 season.

[StillerPaul]

Seymour has 4 Pro Bowls and Hampton has 2.

Also, the only reason he got his 2nd Pro Bowl was because Seymour was hurt and couldn't go.

PITTSBURGH -- Pittsburgh Steelers nose tackle Casey Hampton will replace the injured Richard Seymour of the New England Patriots on the AFC Pro Bowl roster.

Hampton, in his fifth season, also played in the Pro Bowl following the 2003 season.

Hey, why let facts get in the way of some Casey props??

Dude is the cornerstone of my dominant D.

[PatsFanTX]

Hey, why let facts get in the way of some Casey props??

Dude is the cornerstone of my dominant D.

Just messing with you Stiller.

I also think Hampton is one hell of a player.

[arsenal1189]

I was thinking of using Kimo as a NT for particular packages similar to the Pats. Seymour is a NT usually to mix things up. Also you may want your NT on the perimeter if the offense is unbalanced with 2 TE's to one side....JMO

[StillerPaul]

I was thinking of using Kimo as a NT for particular packages similar to the Pats. Seymour is a NT usually to mix things up. Also you may want your NT on the perimeter if the offense is unbalanced with 2 TE's to one side....JMO

Arsenal, you should hang around here more often. You guys will love KVO's all effort all the time. The guy just never gives up on a play. He should rub off on others well too. I was just giving ya the low-down on his limited time at NT for us.

[glenn212]

The fact remains that we still have a choice and rather than forcing a un-fitting system into players who are our pillars, we can stick with an already established system

Very informative post there Arsenal. Fact of the matter is when I was watching alot of Pat's football, living in CT, I noticed more then a couple times the Pat's go to a 4-3 and play it most of the game. It was one of their base defenses as is the 3-4 and from your post you do have football knowledge. Alot depends on personal the offense sends out (Ex: 2 TE, 1 RB, 1 WR, or 4 WR's, 1 RB set or a straight pro set 2 backs, 2 wr's 1 TE )the defense will send in the players to match up these's sets (nickel, dime).

Now the most important factor in playing a base 3-4 is the three down line men have to be able to play a 2 gap technique, I believe this is where the problem for you occurs,it's good point Arsenal. There are many stunts out of the 3-4 that allows you to be aggresive, such as twist etc, etc. I think the Jets will be very flexible and creative in theirs defensive schemes as are the Pats with much success I will say...no worries Mangenius has it under control..

[124]

Just messing with you Stiller.

I also think Hampton is one hell of a player.

Okay, okay. Enough of this Patriots-Steelers fan love here at JET Nation.

I don't see how you can evaluate Vilma in a 3-4 until we have a natural NT to block for him and the other 'backers, and at earliest that won't be until 2007 unless Sione "Pooh Bear" Pouha steps up.

[glenn212]

Okay, okay. Enough of this Patriots-Steelers fan love here at JET Nation.

I don't see how you can evaluate Vilma in a 3-4 until we have a natural NT to block for him and the other 'backers, and at earliest that won't be until 2007 unless Sione "Pooh Bear" Pouha steps up.

Don't be confused, I am a huge JET fan..unfornately I will have to invest in a NFL package to see my Jets every week, CT is Pats country and I am surrounded by the flying Elvis

[arsenal1189]

Arsenal, you should hang around here more often. You guys will love KVO's all effort all the time. The guy just never gives up on a play. He should rub off on others well too. I was just giving ya the low-down on his limited time at NT for us.

sure thing dude, nothing personal