Herm- luck not involved in Chiefs making playoffs

[JonEJet]

I find it hard to believe the tread with the most hits, with the most responses, on a week that we play the F-ing Patriots in the F-ing playoffs, is a thread about Herman.

Get over it, and lets talk about the Pats, and their fans, The Pukes.

[Preston Howley III]

Edwards, the DB coach for Tampa, was part of Tags' NFL minority program;Marv Lewis, busy coordinating the 2000 Ravens defense rather than kissing the commish's a$$, wasn't. Woody's an owner for about 5 minutes, and to get his bid approved had to do as he was told by Tagliabue.Tags forced Johnson's hand to hire his guy. It was a disgrace, and I don't think Johnson has since forgotten how the NFL stuck him with Coach Jerk Chicken. It's probably why when Edwards started squawking about an extension last year Johnson was looking to fire him anayway.

Exactly. Marvin Lewis was still working, plus he wasn't in the NFL Minority program. Jesse Jackson didn't just want to see any black coach get hired as a HC, the job had to go to somebody specifically out of the program, because it was his program, and he had to look effective.

Herm was obviously fast tracked as a result of that program. Marvin Lewis didn't need that program, that's why he told Tags no thanks.

[Preston Howley III]

I find it hard to believe the tread with the most hits, with the most responses, on a week that we play the F-ing Patriots in the F-ing playoffs, is a thread about Herman.

Get over it, and lets talk about the Pats, and their fans, The Pukes.

I'd like to Jon, but to not respond to Hermaphrodite drivel is to validate it.

[Bugg]

"Went to the WCO offense b/c of CHAD, they were thinking down the road not for 2001 and in 2001 they didn't allow Vinny to ruin their season like he had in 2000. I am not blaming Vinny for '00 as he was back from the injury and had no WRs which made it all the more inexplicable that the Jets would throw the ball so much. In 2000 Vinny threw 590 times in 15 games and threw 25 INTs, in 2001 Vinny threw it just 441 times in 16 games."

Vinny Testaverde might be the single worst fit of a QB in the WCO ever; it fits Pennington's skills very well. Edwards was never smart enough tos e it early on. Quite the opposite. Edwards nonetheless allowed Hackett to do what ever he wanted without adding more vertical downfield stuff for Testaverde. And stubbornly refused to put Pennington in there until injuries left him with no choice. In fact, as late as training camp of 2002 "Fear of the Unknown" Edwards was saying Chad "might never be ready" while Edwards tried to make the immortal Tory Woodbury into Ray Lucas, giving Woodbury practice snaps over Chad. And Pennington in 2002 probably did nothing less than saving Edwards' career.

[nyjunc]

"Went to the WCO offense b/c of CHAD, they were thinking down the road not for 2001 and in 2001 they didn't allow Vinny to ruin their season like he had in 2000. I am not blaming Vinny for '00 as he was back from the injury and had no WRs which made it all the more inexplicable that the Jets would throw the ball so much. In 2000 Vinny threw 590 times in 15 games and threw 25 INTs, in 2001 Vinny threw it just 441 times in 16 games."

Vinny Testaverde might be the single worst fit of a QB in the WCO ever; it fits Pennington's skills very well. Edwards was never smart enough tos e it early on. Quite the opposite. Edwards nonetheless allowed Hackett to do what ever he wanted without adding more vertical downfield stuff for Testaverde. And stubbornly refused to put Pennington in there until injuries left him with no choice. In fact, as late as training camp of 2002 "Fear of the Unknown" Edwards was saying Chad "might never be ready" while Edwards tried to make the immortal Tory Woodbury into Ray Lucas, giving Woodbury practice snaps over Chad. And Pennington in 2002 probably did nothing less than saving Edwards' career.

vinny threw 25 INts in 2000, herm was aware of this and they weren't going to allow Vinny to duplicate that in 2001. The WCO offense was put in for the future for Chad not for Vinny in 2001. They played it PERFECTLY a

[nyjunc]

"Went to the WCO offense b/c of CHAD, they were thinking down the road not for 2001 and in 2001 they didn't allow Vinny to ruin their season like he had in 2000. I am not blaming Vinny for '00 as he was back from the injury and had no WRs which made it all the more inexplicable that the Jets would throw the ball so much. In 2000 Vinny threw 590 times in 15 games and threw 25 INTs, in 2001 Vinny threw it just 441 times in 16 games."

Vinny Testaverde might be the single worst fit of a QB in the WCO ever; it fits Pennington's skills very well. Edwards was never smart enough tos e it early on. Quite the opposite. Edwards nonetheless allowed Hackett to do what ever he wanted without adding more vertical downfield stuff for Testaverde. And stubbornly refused to put Pennington in there until injuries left him with no choice. In fact, as late as training camp of 2002 "Fear of the Unknown" Edwards was saying Chad "might never be ready" while Edwards tried to make the immortal Tory Woodbury into Ray Lucas, giving Woodbury practice snaps over Chad. And Pennington in 2002 probably did nothing less than saving Edwards' career.

vinny threw 25 INts in 2000, herm was aware of this and they weren't going to allow Vinny to duplicate that in 2001. The WCO offense was put in for the future for Chad not for Vinny in 2001. They played it PERFECTLY as we wound up winning 10 and making the playoffs then handed it off to Chad at the perfect time early in 2002.

[Bugg]

Testaverde's INTs in 1998 and 2000 were almost like punts, almost always way upfield; it was part of the package. But if Hackett and Edwards were going to dink and dunk in the WCO, then those INT became catastrophes. And that's what happened. Thye barely put in or called any long passes even thoguh that was VT's cache. Number of INTs alone doesn't tell the full story. They tried to turn a big and often inaccurate arm into Ken Anderson,and it didn't really work. And they had a guy on the bench in Pennington they adamantly refused to play until they had no other choice(Woodbury having found to be not even close to Ray Lucas).

If we could go back to 2002 and look at JI and the press before that move, you might understand it a whole bunch better. Because you're simply wrong about this, and very wrong at that. Edwards in camp 2002-"Pennington isn't ready, and he may never be ready", eve though it was clear if you were going to run the WCO he was perfect. Again, but for Pennington being thrown in as a desperate afterthought, Edwards is probably lucky to be working in any coaching job today.

[Preston Howley III]

vinny threw 25 INts in 2000, herm was aware of this and they weren't going to allow Vinny to duplicate that in 2001. The WCO offense was put in for the future for Chad not for Vinny in 2001. They played it PERFECTLY as we wound up winning 10 and making the playoffs then handed it off to Chad at the perfect time early in 2002.

Holy sht!

I can't believe this guy. You're more delusional than Rajensen088. I didn't think it was possible. Yeah they "handed it off" to Chad at the perfect time. They were repeating the beginning of 2001, getting blown out in games, Vinny got hurt, and Herm LUCKED his way into Chad saving his and Bradways *ss.

[Preston Howley III]

"perfect time".

That was one of Herm's classic panic moves, that ended up working in his favor. In fact, this sums up Herm in a nutshell: Creates his own adversity, overcomes it by blind luck, and then gets commended for it by the press, and his revisionist sycophants.

[Sperm Edwards]

You're more delusional than Rajensen088. I didn't think it was possible.

That's because it isn't. If you were to ask Jensen, Herm has never done anything wrong ever. No wrong decisions ever made with regard to personnel, play-calling, talking to the press. Nothing.

[nyjunc]

Testaverde's INTs in 1998 and 2000 were almost like punts, almost always way upfield; it was part of the package. But if Hackett and Edwards were going to dink and dunk in the WCO, then those INT became catastrophes. And that's what happened. Thye barely put in or called any long passes even thoguh that was VT's cache. Number of INTs alone doesn't tell the full story. They tried to turn a big and often inaccurate arm into Ken Anderson,and it didn't really work. And they had a guy on the bench in Pennington they adamantly refused to play until they had no other choice(Woodbury having found to be not even close to Ray Lucas).

If we could go back to 2002 and look at JI and the press before that move, you might understand it a whole bunch better. Because you're simply wrong about this, and very wrong at that. Edwards in camp 2002-"Pennington isn't ready, and he may never be ready", eve though it was clear if you were going to run the WCO he was perfect. Again, but for Pennington being thrown in as a desperate afterthought, Edwards is probably lucky to be working in any coaching job today.

You don't remember much from 2000, do you? Vinny had an INT returned for a TD at Buf(we lost by 3), at Oak he had an INT for a TD, at bal he threw the killer to McAllister before the half for a TD. That's 3 INTs returned for TDs plus he had some crucial fumbles leading to a TD against Det and the fumble at Bal up 14-0 at midfield.

[nyjunc]

Holy sht!

I can't believe this guy. You're more delusional than Rajensen088. I didn't think it was possible. Yeah they "handed it off" to Chad at the perfect time. They were repeating the beginning of 2001, getting blown out in games, Vinny got hurt, and Herm LUCKED his way into Chad saving his and Bradways *ss.

The beginning of '01 we started 3-3, we didn't start 1-5. Vinny was healthy enough to start the next week. Had we started Chad in week 1 we may not have Chad today. We were so beat up that Montana couldn't have helped us. We began to gte healthier then he made the change. he surely didn't do it based on Chad leading us to 3 pts at Jacksonville.

[Biggs]

The beginning of '01 we started 3-3, we didn't start 1-5. Vinny was healthy enough to start the next week. Had we started Chad in week 1 we may not have Chad today. We were so beat up that Montana couldn't have helped us. We began to gte healthier then he made the change. he surely didn't do it based on Chad leading us to 3 pts at Jacksonville.

If I get your premise Junc they installed the WCO in 01 for Chad not for Vinny. Chad actually did play in week 1, he actually attempted 6 passes. He also played in week 6 against St. Louis.

Why would you make a playoff run and go into the playoffs with an O designed for your future QB instead of the QB who was playing and who down the stretch that year put you in the playoffs? Any good Coach plays to his teams strenghts particularly the QB's strength. You have always said you can't win a SB unless you get to the playoffs. Why handicap a playoff team by running an O for a QB who you have on the bench?

In 02 the coach in TC says Chad isn't ready but still opens the season with the WCO. We end up going 1 & 4 to open the season before Chad comes in and we lose two out of the next three before going on a tear. Isn't it possible that if Chad had started in 02 instead of 1 & 5 maybe we beat both KC and Cleveland and start 3 & 3 or maybe better. Maybe we go 11 & 5 or 12 & 4 that year, which that year might have given us a first round bye and a home game increasing our odds of a SB by a huge amount. Instead we depended on a complete melt down by Miami to get in and have to go on the road in the second round to take on the Raiders. The fact is a better plan, particularly in 02 might very well have won us a SB. 02 was an example of a wasted opportunity.

[SouthernJet]

Why would you make a playoff run and go into the playoffs with an O designed for your future QB instead of the QB who was playing and who down the stretch that year put you in the playoffs? Any good Coach plays to his teams strenghts particularly the QB's strength. .

Because its Herm.

You heard Larry Johnson ALREADY this year. he has figured Herm out in year one.

'WE DONT CHANGE ANYTHING. TEAMS LOOK AT FILM OF US AND ARE ABLE TO BEAT US CAUSE WE NEVER CHANGE'

[johnny green balls]

we were a kick away from the title game, yeah it was worth it. As long as Chad was willing to risk it.

nomination for worst post of the decade. why even have team doctors then? you can't be serious.

[Biggs]

Because its Herm.

You heard Larry Johnson ALREADY this year. he has figured Herm out in year one.

'WE DONT CHANGE ANYTHING. TEAMS LOOK AT FILM OF US AND ARE ABLE TO BEAT US CAUSE WE NEVER CHANGE'

Personally I thought Herm had zero impact on the 0 up until last year. Bradway brought in Hackett and Hackett ran the O. Herm didn't really get involved until he brought Dinger in and we all saw how that turned out.

[nyjunc]

Hackett was hired. That is the reason for the WCO. He's never coached anything other than the WCO. Chad had little to do with it, as he wasn't even given an opportunity to play until Vinny got injured. We did not install a WCO because maybe in a year or two a QB we drafted would be suited for it. And if it was, it's doubly stupid with a team capable of winning now.

They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad.

You have to be kidding me. Herm was not shy about turning Ellis into Warren Sapp. He had Ellis put on >10 lbs and turned him from a HUGE end with decent speed into a puny DT who ran like a sloth. This was planned before Ferguson got injured. Ferguson was their NT. Ellis was put inside to play 3-DT, not NT.

The 3 technique requires more quickness than power. He took a shot w/ Ellis and I am pretty sur he moved him after Ferg got hurt.

They were not as good as they looked against us. They suffered no injuries during the game that I can remember, yet after that first game they went 5-10. They were a terrible defense that we did not exploit. James' injury had little (if anything) to do with their record, as Rhodes was frankly better than James that year anyway & they still finished with the #2 offense.

First off that was the first game of his coaching career. Secondly we scored 24 and were going in for 31 when Vinny fumlbed at the Indy GL the they retunred it 98 yds for the TD.

Why are Herm's players (particularly linemen) always hurt?

Why did he play Martin instead of sitting him for a couple of weeks to let him heal properly?

His players were healthy in '01 and '04 but he had some injury problems at other times. We were very healthy heading into the 2nd half which is why we started winning so much.

As for Curtis, that is one of my biggest gripes w/ Herm. he should have used Jordan more especially during that time.

Chrebet didn't blow a 3-TD lead. C'mon.

If he holds onto the ball we win.

I doubt Herm was convinced the move-Ellis-to-DT was over. After all, they did draft Bryan Thomas. Still carrying the weight doesn't mean he had trouble dieting.

They drafted BT b/c Ellis struggled and b/c soon Abe and ellis' contracts were up.

First of all, NE was good but not special in 2002.

Second of all, it is more relevant how they did in 2002 than 2003-beyond. And IN 2002 they had not only had lost back-to-back games before, but they lost back-to-back-to-back-to-back games. FOUR in a row earlier that season.

How they did the following season is hardly relevant.

if we don't beat them in that game they win the division again. we are the only team that interrupted their dynasty for a year by winning it in '02. yes they had a losing streak early in the season but they were alot better late and wouldn't lose 2 in a row again until this year.

Herm knew perfectly well that Coles was without a contract for the next year.

What did you want him to do?

[When Chad went into the game we were up 10-0. What POSSIBLE explanation could be made for ANNOUNCING that Chad will come in 5 days before the game?

/QUOTE]

we were NOT up 10-0. We were up 10-7 and we needed a trick play to get up 10-7.

I don't know what he was thinking, I never said the guy was perfect. he made a mistake announcing it.

You gusy just look at final records, the Giants were not awful when we played them. That win put them at 4-4 and in the thick of it but they fell apart after that game. We weren't very good that year either.

you can't do that forever, at some point a team is going to beat you but since that sweep in '03 we have gone 5-1 against them so I think we got it back.

They lost to a good jets team and the Broncos on the road. I think you are fiddling w/ #s. After that they lost one game until week 17(a 1 pt loss at a good Atl team). SD lost 4 games, all 4 to playoff teams.

They were considerd so b/c people based it on preseason expectations. That's like saying we were sucky in week 2 against NE this year. We had an "upset" win in week 1 and then fell behind early to NE and came back to make it look close- EXACTLY like what we did to SD in '04.

Before you were touting records at the end of seasons and now w/ SD and Buf you talk about their records at the time- which do you want to use? Buf started 0-4 but 3 of the 4 losses were by 3 pts or less. They were not a bad team even early on.

We lost Chad in the middle of that game and sometimes 2-5 teams turn out better than 6-1 teams- remember SD '02?

I agree abou the Jordan pass it was the dumbest playcall maybe I have ever seen. I was as livid as could be about that one.

i am not looking to excuse Herm but rather poitning out that all coaches make dumb decisions from time to time.

he played well against bad Ds but struggled against better, quicker D.s His arm isn't striong but he had even less zip that usual and he was struggling. It wa quite amazing w/ our O scoring 3 pts that we were even int he Pitt game let alone should ahve won the game if our K could make 1 of 2 kicks.

I didn't like that decision but he msised by inches from 47, he should have been able to make it from 43.

hamstring pulls and things like that are affected by the rigors of camp but not torn rotator cuffs and torn knees. Maybe it played a role but it wasn't the reason we were so beat up.

We had alot more than Vinny hurt in 1999 and we had a Parcells camp, sometimes it's just luck w/ injuries.

[nyjunc]

nomination for worst post of the decade. why even have team doctors then? you can't be serious.

Obviously the team Dr's cleared him to play or he wouldn't have played.

[Bugg]

"They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad."

Nonsense. Horsepit. Lies, damnable lies and complete baseless untruths. They hired Hackett because Edwards not really knowing a damn thing about offense( witness Tampa's 12 points with Shawn King at QB in the 2000 vs. the Rams in the NFC title game ring any bells?)interviewed Hackett due to their KC connection. Testaverde was the QB for all of 2001, and the start of 2002. But for VT's injury, Woodbury sucking eggs and no other options, Chad "He's not ready and may never be ready" Pennington doesn't see the field. Saying anything else leads me to believe you either don't know what you're talking about or are intentionally lying or have some other agenda.

[Preston Howley III]

"They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad."

Nonsense. Horsepit. Lies, damnable lies and complete baseless untruths. They hired Hackett because Edwards not really knowing a damn thing about offense( witness Tampa's 12 points with Shawn King at QB in the 2000 vs. the Rams in the NFC title game ring any bells?)interviewed Hackett due to their KC connection. Testaverde was the QB for all of 2001, and the start of 2002. But for VT's injury, Woodbury sucking eggs and no other options, Chad "He's not ready and may never be ready" Pennington doesn't see the field. Saying anything else leads me to believe you either don't know what you're talking about or are intentionally lying or have some other agenda.

They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad.

[Preston Howley III]

Is there any way to get a play by play on pre-season games 2001/2002?

I don't even remember Chad getting that many snaps. I recall Woodbury, and this other QB from Tulane, I think.

[nyjunc]

"They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad."

Nonsense. Horsepit. Lies, damnable lies and complete baseless untruths. They hired Hackett because Edwards not really knowing a damn thing about offense( witness Tampa's 12 points with Shawn King at QB in the 2000 vs. the Rams in the NFC title game ring any bells?)interviewed Hackett due to their KC connection. Testaverde was the QB for all of 2001, and the start of 2002. But for VT's injury, Woodbury sucking eggs and no other options, Chad "He's not ready and may never be ready" Pennington doesn't see the field. Saying anything else leads me to believe you either don't know what you're talking about or are intentionally lying or have some other agenda.

Completely untrue, Hackett was brought in b/c of Chad.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/01/23/tuesday_roundup_ap/

[Preston Howley III]

Completely untrue, Hackett was brought in b/c of Chad.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/01/23/tuesday_roundup_ap/

That article doesn't validate your point one bit.

[BP]

Completely untrue, Hackett was brought in b/c of Chad.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/01/23/tuesday_roundup_ap/

Thats the writer's opinion..that doesn't mean it's true..

[PeterNorth09]

They hired hackett b/c his offense was best suited for Chad.

0 > Paul Hackett

[Preston Howley III]

Does anybody know any sites that archive pre-season game recaps/play by plays?

I would love to see how many snaps Pennington took in 2001 and 2002, specifically with the first string offense.

[Bugg]

Completely untrue, Hackett was brought in b/c of Chad.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/01/23/tuesday_roundup_ap/

From your article-

"The appointment of Hackett may not bode well for quarterback Vinny Testaverde. Last week, Edwards said the Jets would emphasize the running game, and Hackett operates a West Coast offense based on short passes and strong running. Backups Ray Lucas and Chad Pennington are more suited for that style of offense."

That's the writer saying that, NOT Edwards. This is like working reading comprehension with my 7-year old. Please point out how you can extrapoliate that Hackett was expressly brought in "b/c of Chad" from anything Edwards said, even in this article you posted.Can't be done b/c it's not in there. And we all know Testaverde was the QB for all of 2001 and the first 6 games of 2002 .

[nyjunc]

Thats the writer's opinion..that doesn't mean it's true..

That is what was talked about at the time. I remember an interview on FAN w/ terry Bradway and he said that as well.

[nyjunc]

From your article-

"The appointment of Hackett may not bode well for quarterback Vinny Testaverde. Last week, Edwards said the Jets would emphasize the running game, and Hackett operates a West Coast offense based on short passes and strong running. Backups Ray Lucas and Chad Pennington are more suited for that style of offense."

That's the writer saying that, NOT Edwards. This is like working reading comprehension with my 7-year old. Please point out how you can extrapoliate that Hackett was expressly brought in "b/c of Chad" from anything Edwards said, even in this article you posted.Can't be done b/c it's not in there. And we all know Testaverde was the QB for all of 2001 and the first 6 games of 2002 .

It was common knowldge back then, I searched it and that was the only article I found on Hackett's hiring. it was disucssed back then. Don't believe me? I don't care, I know I am right.

[nyjunc]

That article doesn't validate your point one bit.

but your article 2 years after Herm was hired about minority candidates does? You can't be serious?

[Preston Howley III]

Thats the writer's opinion..that doesn't mean it's true..

The writer also mentions Ray Lucas as a QB the WCO would be suited for.

Great, maybe the Dolphins should have hired Hackett that season.

[nyjunc]

Is there any way to get a play by play on pre-season games 2001/2002?

I don't even remember Chad getting that many snaps. I recall Woodbury, and this other QB from Tulane, I think.

Here's a link to the Jets-Giants preseason game, surprise! Chad played! so don't start spreading more lies.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2002/08/24/jets_giants_ap/

here is a link about the eagle game:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2002/08/30/eagles_jets_ap/

Here's the box from the Pitt game, Chad played again!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores102/102220/20020808NFLX-PITTSBURGH0.htm

[nyjunc]

The writer also mentions Ray Lucas as a QB the WCO would be suited for.

Great, maybe the Dolphins should have hired Hackett that season.

We didn't use a 1st rd pick on Ray Lucas and ray Lucas was done as a Jet soon after as he had already played his lst game for the Jets.

[BP]

The writer also mentions Ray Lucas as a QB the WCO would be suited for.

Great, maybe the Dolphins should have hired Hackett that season.

That must be the reason why Lucas fizzled out and had to retire..he didn't have Herm and Hackett ''to guide him''

[nyjunc]

I guess everyone forgets Ray Lucas was gone after the 2000 season.