Seperating Coaching From Talent

[ZachEY]

Can anyone really do this?

For the last however many weeks, we've sat behind our keyboards and over scrutinized every potential hire the Jets have looked up.

Rex Ryan is getting blasted now by some because of Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, et al.

Shanahan hadn't won a Super Bowl since having Elway, so he's out.

Bill Cowher was criticized for taking 13 years to win a Super Bowl.

The list goes on.

Even Bill Belichick was fired in Cleveland when he had inferior talent. It wasn't until Tom Brady came along that he became relevant.

Do we know who Bill Walsh is without Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Charles Hayley, and Jerry Rice?

To me, a good coach gets the most out of the talent he's got, nothing more, nothing less. That's where Mangini failed this year.

Are there examples of great coaches out there who have consistently won, without great talent? Or are we as fans expecting too much from this hire?

[JETSorDIE]

Can anyone really do this?

For the last however many weeks, we've sat behind our keyboards and over scrutinized every potential hire the Jets have looked up.

Rex Ryan is getting blasted now by some because of Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, et al.

Shanahan hadn't won a Super Bowl since having Elway, so he's out.

Bill Cowher was criticized for taking 13 years to win a Super Bowl.

The list goes on.

Even Bill Belichick was fired in Cleveland when he had inferior talent. It wasn't until Tom Brady came along that he became relevant.

Do we know who Bill Walsh is without Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Charles Hayley, and Jerry Rice?

To me, a good coach gets the most out of the talent he's got, nothing more, nothing less. That's where Mangini failed this year.

Are there examples of great coaches out there who have consistently won, without great talent? Or are we as fans expecting too much from this hire?

You need a leader of men in a coach and of course soem good men to lead. Successful organizations develop a chemistry between both.

[SoFlaJets]

George Seifert was a genius with the 49ers talent and then not so much at what? Carolina was it?

[Bergen Jet]

Can anyone really do this?

For the last however many weeks, we've sat behind our keyboards and over scrutinized every potential hire the Jets have looked up.

Rex Ryan is getting blasted now by some because of Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, et al.

Shanahan hadn't won a Super Bowl since having Elway, so he's out.

Bill Cowher was criticized for taking 13 years to win a Super Bowl.

The list goes on.

Even Bill Belichick was fired in Cleveland when he had inferior talent. It wasn't until Tom Brady came along that he became relevant.

Do we know who Bill Walsh is without Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Charles Hayley, and Jerry Rice?

To me, a good coach gets the most out of the talent he's got, nothing more, nothing less. That's where Mangini failed this year.

Are there examples of great coaches out there who have consistently won, without great talent? Or are we as fans expecting too much from this hire?

Coughlin won a SB with a team that only beat 1 team with a winning record (9-7 Skins) in the regular season. Did the Giants under-achieve to 10-6 or did they play over their heads in the playoffs?

They beat 3 teams that were probably more talented (Packers - who destroyed the Giants in the regular season, Cowboys - beat the Giants by double digits twice - and Patriots - beat the Giants at the Meadowlands to wrap up the "perfect" season).

Did they win these games because Couglin saw all of these teams before and made the appropriate adjustments to the game plan when they came face to face again?

[ZachEY]

George Seifert was a genius with the 49ers talent and then not so much at what? Carolina was it?

Brian Billick was an offensive Guru when he had a healthy Culpepper throwing the ball really high to Randy Moss and Cris Carter.

My point is simply that you need a guy who's not going to hold back your talent, as Herm Edwards did by not only his complete ineptitude but his unwillingness to play young players.

Mangini took an 8-3 team with the most talent we've had in a while, lost the locker room, and spiraled into a nose dive.

Rex Ryan has great talent, and has them playing at a high level. For now, that's good enough for me and all I think you can ask for.

[PFSIKH]

Belichick and Par$ells are a great examples of this.

Using Belichick:

He was successful as a DC with the Giants.

He had moderate success with the Browns as far as coaching. Other stuff, not so much.

He was successful as a DC/Assistant HC in New England.

He was succesful as a DC in New York.

He had proven his ability across multiple teams and players.

I do not think anyone doubts Ryans football IQ although that timeout last year against New England was dumb. However, he had arguably the best defensive talent to work with. The question is whether he can raise Harris to play like Ray and Rhodes to play like Reed.

[JustInFudge]

Its a debate for the ages.

What I think is more important is the level of respect that a coach receives from his players. Rex seems to get a ton.

Generally, with respect, you can get players to play at their highest level. Hopefully, that is the case with Rex here in NY.

[ZachEY]

Coughlin won a SB with a team that only beat 1 team with a winning record (9-7 Skins) in the regular season. Did the Giants under-achieve to 10-6 or did they play over their heads in the playoffs?

They beat 3 teams that were probably more talented (Packers - who destroyed the Giants in the regular season, Cowboys - beat the Giants by double digits twice - and Patriots - beat the Giants at the Meadowlands to wrap up the "perfect" season).

Did they win these games because Couglin saw all of these teams before and made the appropriate adjustments to the game plan when they came face to face again?

All good questions.

The Giants were slow out of the gate, is that on Coughlin, yes. But then where do you give credit for them rebounding? Was the Packer game part of this early season lull, were they caught off guard? Who knows... But pound for pound, the Giants had the talent to compete, and they showed that by not only rebounding in the season, but by winning a close one in the playoffs.

And certainly Coughlin gets the credit for the adjustments made, he did a great job. But as you say, those teams were 'probably' more talented. I would conceed that the Cowboys are, but as we've seen with Wade Philips/Tony Romo, this team seems to come up small when they need it most.

At the end of the day, they dialed up the perfect game plan to beat the Pats. The took advantage of their one weakness. That having been said, without Osi, Strahan, and Tuck, they could run the identical plays, and I get the feeling we're looking at 19-0.

[Maxman]

Can anyone really do this?

For the last however many weeks, we've sat behind our keyboards and over scrutinized every potential hire the Jets have looked up.

Rex Ryan is getting blasted now by some because of Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, et al.

Shanahan hadn't won a Super Bowl since having Elway, so he's out.

Bill Cowher was criticized for taking 13 years to win a Super Bowl.

The list goes on.

Even Bill Belichick was fired in Cleveland when he had inferior talent. It wasn't until Tom Brady came along that he became relevant.

Do we know who Bill Walsh is without Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Charles Hayley, and Jerry Rice?

To me, a good coach gets the most out of the talent he's got, nothing more, nothing less. That's where Mangini failed this year.

Are there examples of great coaches out there who have consistently won, without great talent? Or are we as fans expecting too much from this hire?

Herman Edwards took a few 7 win teams to the 9 win level.

[ZachEY]

Belichick and Par$ells are a great examples of this.

Using Belichick:

He was successful as a DC with the Giants.

He had moderate success with the Browns as far as coaching. Other stuff, not so much.

He was successful as a DC/Assistant HC in New England.

He was succesful as a DC in New York.

He had proven his ability across multiple teams and players.

I do not think anyone doubts Ryans football IQ although that timeout last year against New England was dumb. However, he had arguably the best defensive talent to work with. The question is whether he can raise Harris to play like Ray and Rhodes to play like Reed.

I agree on Ryan. The point was that at present, you can't really hold the talent he has to work with against him. What more do you want from the guy than to do well with great talent? Likewise, some of these coaches we've deemed all time greats have had all time great talent.

As to the timeout, I don't remember it so well, but if my memory serves me correctly, it looked like the wrong call because they made the stop afterwards. If they hadn't, it would have been a non-issue, no? Am I way off base?

As to BB, he gets a ton of credit as far as I'm concerned, looking at it closely, he's had great success with great talent, and I'm not taking anything away from him for that, just trying to understand where the line is drawn. In Cleveland, he didn't have the 'horses', and so he was fired. In all those other stops you mentioned, he did.

Parcells is known for bringing in his guys, always has. Not so much for taking a ragtag band of misfits to the promised land.

[lancemehl]

You need a leader of men in a coach and of course soem good men to lead. Successful organizations develop a chemistry between both.

Exactly. as i've said, we were obviously deadset on this first -time coach thing, I don't know why, but if we were going "coordinator promotion" then I feel I would've replaced Sutton long before schott, and with Ryan, at least we can now see how a real 3-4 operates and is successful in this league, since we've f*&king waited so long, I wanna see what's so great about this f%$king defense!

But there is a big difference between a coordinator and a coach, the coordinators need to be football geniuses, a coach needs to be a great communicator. Some are both. The ideal model, I think is to have a proven genius/coordinator run th O, ditto for the D, then have commander-in-chief, who listen to his gurus and makes decisions.And, yes, I would hire a clock watcher and a challenge guy. That's their job, TO's and challenges. HC has too much emotion running to be concise on that sh&t down the stretch.

[neckdemon]

here's how i see it. are you going to get to and win a superbowl with inferior talent? no, probably not. so obviously you need the talent to win. but you also need to get these guys to overchieve consistently. you have to be bale to coach up your players...you have to be able to adjust your gameplan when it's obvious that the opposition has adjusted to you. good coaching can take inferior talent to the play-offs..by getting them to overachieve (see miami). but superior talent also has to be made to over-achieve....that's gow yo uget to and win a superbowl. you get guys to over-achieve by good coaching, superior game-planning and the ability to make in-game adjusments that put your players in a position to over-achieve and win. mangni got our players to over-achieve for part of the season...bue then he never adjusted and the team under-achieved and tanked. it was a trend with him going back to last season. he needed to go. hopefullt ryan can put the team in a better position to win.

[DMaynard]

It is hard to separate the impact of talent when evaluating a coach. To be successful, I think you need both. You can't win with great talent and an average coach and a great coach cannot win with lousy talent.

[Larz]

I think you can look to in-season changes for a glimpse of an answer

like the chargers this season with teddy C and ron rivera

rivera got a lot more out of them than teddy C did, and it came down to just being more aggressive

another way to look at it is parcells saying he thought the jets paid too high a price for him when he came from the pats*

even a guy with his ego acknowledged draft picks are more important to a franchise than coaching

so simply put, in a 32 team league, to make it to the top you have to have both

[Sperm Edwards]

The theme seems to be coaches who:

a) are good, but are already taken on other teams or don't want to coach this year (if ever again)

were unsuccessful in their roles with good teams, and this is held against them

c) were successful in their roles with good teams, and this is also held against them

d) retreads who some assume to be better than those who haven't had the opportunity to be retreads yet

[piney]

Can anyone really do this?

For the last however many weeks, we've sat behind our keyboards and over scrutinized every potential hire the Jets have looked up.

Rex Ryan is getting blasted now by some because of Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, et al.

Shanahan hadn't won a Super Bowl since having Elway, so he's out.

Bill Cowher was criticized for taking 13 years to win a Super Bowl.

The list goes on.

Even Bill Belichick was fired in Cleveland when he had inferior talent. It wasn't until Tom Brady came along that he became relevant.

Do we know who Bill Walsh is without Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Charles Hayley, and Jerry Rice?

To me, a good coach gets the most out of the talent he's got, nothing more, nothing less. That's where Mangini failed this year.

Are there examples of great coaches out there who have consistently won, without great talent? Or are we as fans expecting too much from this hire?

I think also what has to be taken into consideration is the idea that sometimes the coach puts talented players in a position to excel...

You can have teams with great players play poorly (see Dallas). So, yeah, maybe Reed is a great player, but he also has a coach who puts him in the best position to succeed with his talent.

I don't think players, especially on defense, win on talent alone despite a bad coach.

it is a two-way street. Talented player and smart coach with a game plan to utilize his players strengths and the opponents weakness.

[PFSIKH]

I agree on Ryan. The point was that at present, you can't really hold the talent he has to work with against him. What more do you want from the guy than to do well with great talent? Likewise, some of these coaches we've deemed all time greats have had all time great talent.

As to the timeout, I don't remember it so well, but if my memory serves me correctly, it looked like the wrong call because they made the stop afterwards. If they hadn't, it would have been a non-issue, no? Am I way off base?

As to BB, he gets a ton of credit as far as I'm concerned, looking at it closely, he's had great success with great talent, and I'm not taking anything away from him for that, just trying to understand where the line is drawn. In Cleveland, he didn't have the 'horses', and so he was fired. In all those other stops you mentioned, he did.

Parcells is known for bringing in his guys, always has. Not so much for taking a ragtag band of misfits to the promised land.

Yes, but Belichick and Par$ells have also done it with middling talent.

Par$ells got immediate results with the Phins and Jets. It took to the second year with Dallas and New England.

Ryan's TO canceled a fourth down stop. The Patriots with a reprieve made the 1st down on the second try.

[jason423]

I think you look for guys who have done it over multiple years with multiple parts. Jeff Fisher has won with Steve McNair. He won with Vince Young. He won with Kerry Collins. George or no George. Mason or no Mason. Even though Shannahan hasnt done it with Denver in terms of the Super Bowl he has basically gone through 4 different team makeups in Denver and made it into the playoffs in 3 of those 4 groupings. Look at Belichick. 2001 was a totally different team than 2003 and 2004 and 2007 and 2008 were completely different as well. The only real constant is the coach. Often when these players go elsewhere their play drops drastically even if they were considered stars on their first teams. All the runners from Denver. All the receivers who defected from New England.

I actually do not think Ryan has a ton of talent to work with in Baltimore. At least no more than he has here with the exception of Ed Reed and maybe Terrell Suggs. Ray Lewis isnt Ray Lewis anymore. Scott and Ngata are decent, Id certainly take our guys at those spots. Revis is better than their corners. But they play with a completely different attitude than our guys do which is why they do so well.

My caution is that the Ravens are ballhawks. Whether that is coaching or talent I do not know. When their turnover numbers are down the defense there isnt that good. If a few guys held onto the football yesterday the Steelers easily could have put up 27 points or more on offense and they are not an exceptional offensive club. Our guys let turnovers get away from them like Bartons drop of the softest pass of all time into his lap. That would be the one worry I have with the thought that our defense will be great with him next year.

[ZachEY]

Yes, but Belichick and Par$ells have also done it with middling talent.

Par$ells got immediate results with the Phins and Jets. It took to the second year with Dallas and New England.

Ryan's TO canceled a fourth down stop. The Patriots with a reprieve made the 1st down on the second try.

Certainly not going to argue against Parcells/Belichick and there's a reason those guys are considered the two best coaches of the modern era.

As to the TO, it's hindsight bias. I don't think it was a tremendous blunder, because he couldn't have known that his team would make the stop without the TO, and not make it with the TO. I think a lot of coaches make the same move, it's unfortunate for Ryan that in this case, we got to see the negative outcome play out as the play was ran.

[piney]

Certainly not going to argue against Parcells/Belichick and there's a reason those guys are considered the two best coaches of the modern era.

As to the TO, it's hindsight bias. I don't think it was a tremendous blunder, because he couldn't have known that his team would make the stop without the TO, and not make it with the TO. I think a lot of coaches make the same move, it's unfortunate for Ryan that in this case, we got to see the negative outcome play out as the play was ran.

If coaching errors like the TO in that game were more frequent, than maybe it is an issue, but since it seems to be the only one people can bring up in his time as DC of the Ravens, I think it would be hard to hold that against him.