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Anyone hear what that obnoxious, arrogant prick Schilling said yesterday?

Klecko73isGod

By Klecko73isGod
in Baseball

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ZachEY

ZachEY

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As someone who's a Mets fan with no personal interest in Shilling either way and with almost 0 knowledge of statistical baseball history, and just going on the arguments presented, this was absolutely an unmitigated beat down.

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JMJ

JMJ

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Mets fan so I would like to consider my opinion to by totally unbiased:

Schilling was DOMINANT both regular season and playoffs (and World Series). The man should go to the Hall.

And Kleck got owned in this thread MULTIPLE times. ;)

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JMJ

JMJ

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As someone who's a Mets fan with no personal interest in Shilling either way and with almost 0 knowledge of statistical baseball history, and just going on the arguments presented, this was absolutely an unmitigated beat down.

Haha.

I didn't read page 6 of this thread until after my post above and I posted pretty much the same thing.

Epic beat down.

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haggis

haggis

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I wish he still wore a 'B' on his lid. Say what you want but he ALWAYS gave 110% and always looked out for the team and the younger pitchers. He will be a stellar MLB manager one day. Didn't know when to keep his mouth shut? Since when did that make you less of a man, or less of an American? This country says more and says it louder than any other nation on this planet! Face it people, Curt Schilling IS a true American.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Mets fan so I would like to consider my opinion to by totally unbiased:

Schilling was DOMINANT both regular season and playoffs (and World Series). The man should go to the Hall.

And Kleck got owned in this thread MULTIPLE times. ;)

Clearly you didn't read the thread or don't have a clue what a Hall of Fame pitcher's numbers look like.

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NJ

NJ

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No offense to the Curt Schilling haters in the room......but say what you about the guy through the view of your rose colored Yankees glasses, the guy is a great American.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/24/schilling-in-baghdad/

Thanks for the info on Schilling, Pat. I was kinda benign on the guy since he never really impacted my team in any way, but I thought he was an arrogant crybaby.

To conduct himself the way he did and give to those troops the way he did brought him up many notches in my book.

Don't know if he's got enough left to help the Cubs out. We're probably good to go without him.

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NJ

NJ

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Agree, John.

Do you think Smardja (sp?) will be our #5?

I hope not Doug. Not because I don't like him - I like him a lot. But I'd love to see him spend at least half the season or even till August in AA developing a couple more pitches. It's all going to depend on how Marshall, Gaudin and <gulp> Heilman look in the next 30 days. Marshall's looking real good. The other thing I hope doesn't happen is Lou keeping him up for middle relief if some of the other pen guys don't have it.

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Morrissey

Morrissey

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Samardzija has been pretty mediocre in the minors since signing with the Cubs, he hasn't really dominated any level yet, but he did start to pitch better before he got called up to the bigs. It actually seemed like a switch went on when he got called up to AAA from AA last season. His K's per innings really improved in AAA. If they want him as a reliever, he'll probably start the year with the Cubs, but if they want him to be a starter, he should go to AAA.

Does anyone know if the innings he logged in AAA where out of the bullpen?

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vanDoug

vanDoug

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I hope not Doug. Not because I don't like him - I like him a lot. But I'd love to see him spend at least half the season or even till August in AA developing a couple more pitches. It's all going to depend on how Marshall, Gaudin and <gulp> Heilman look in the next 30 days. Marshall's looking real good. The other thing I hope doesn't happen is Lou keeping him up for middle relief if some of the other pen guys don't have it.

Lou seems to really like this kid too.

Great story.

Hope he works out for us.

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NJ

NJ

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Samardzija has been pretty mediocre in the minors since signing with the Cubs, he hasn't really dominated any level yet, but he did start to pitch better before he got called up to the bigs. It actually seemed like a switch went on when he got called up to AAA from AA last season. His K's per innings really improved in AAA. If they want him as a reliever, he'll probably start the year with the Cubs, but if they want him to be a starter, he should go to AAA.

Does anyone know if the innings he logged in AAA where out of the bullpen?

His AAA numbers were as a starter. The guys only had these last 3 years to work on his mechanics and pitches. His youth and college career was with a 90% emphasis on football - baseball was a sideline. They will really disserve him, I think, by bringing him up too soon. Most other guys his age have had many times over the quality instruction and posturing that Jeff has had. If he can get another pitch or 2 mastered in AA or AAA - his arm, attitude, and athleticism should give us a quality pitcher brought up through our system.

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PFSIKH

PFSIKH

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Clearly you didn't read the thread or don't have a clue what a Hall of Fame pitcher's numbers look like.

Really?

Curt's numbers again.

216-146 3116Ks

10-2 2.23 ERA in the playoffs

League leader in wins, IP, SOs, complete games, multiple all star games and several awards.

Stan Covelski 215 wins: Hall of Famer

Chief Bender 212 wins: Hall of Famer

Jesse Haines 210 wins: Hall of Famer

Don Drysdale 209 wins: Hall of Famer

Bob Lemon 207 wins: Hall of Famer

Hal Newhouser 207 wins: Hall of Famer

Rube Marquard 201 wins: Hall of Famer

Jack Chesbro 197 wins: Hall of Famer

Dazzy Vance 197 wins: Hall of Famer

Ed Walsh 195 wins: Hall of Famer

Rube Waddell 193 wins: Hall of Famer

Lefty Gomez 189 wins: Hall of Famer

Only person on this list that can touch Curt's post season numbers are Lefty Gomez at 6-0 2.89 ERA. Curt sits at 15th on the all-time strikeout list which means there are a lot of HofFers that have fewer Ks. Even his modern era ERA, which sits 11th on the active list, has Hall of Fame members with a higher ERA.

Still want to maintain that baseless claim?

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Really?

Curt's numbers again.

216-146 3116Ks

10-2 2.23 ERA in the playoffs

League leader in wins, IP, SOs, complete games, multiple all star games and several awards.

Stan Covelski 215 wins: Hall of Famer

Chief Bender 212 wins: Hall of Famer

Jesse Haines 210 wins: Hall of Famer

Don Drysdale 209 wins: Hall of Famer

Bob Lemon 207 wins: Hall of Famer

Hal Newhouser 207 wins: Hall of Famer

Rube Marquard 201 wins: Hall of Famer

Jack Chesbro 197 wins: Hall of Famer

Dazzy Vance 197 wins: Hall of Famer

Ed Walsh 195 wins: Hall of Famer

Rube Waddell 193 wins: Hall of Famer

Lefty Gomez 189 wins: Hall of Famer

Only person on this list that can touch Curt's post season numbers are Lefty Gomez at 6-0 2.89 ERA. Curt sits at 15th on the all-time strikeout list which means there are a lot of HofFers that have fewer Ks. Even his modern era ERA, which sits 11th on the active list, has Hall of Fame members with a higher ERA.

Still want to maintain that baseless claim?

Bob Lemon had 7 20-win seasons, Schilling has 3, not to mention 8 All-Star appearances to Schilling's 6. Lemon also only played 13 years.

Don Drysdale only pitched 14 years, had a lower ERA than Schilling by nearly half a run and won a Cy Young Award.

Stan Covelski had a lower ERA than Don Drysdale and five 20-win seasons, including a stretch of four in a row. Add in his 1917 season in which he won 19 and in a five year stretch he won 111 games, Schilling ever come close to that? He also only pitched 14 years.

The point is, all of those guys did other mind-blowing things that made them Hall of Famers.

The pitcher I keep thinking of is John Smoltz, mainly because Johnny Hector kept bringing up Schilling's early years in the bullpen.

Let's examine that, in Schilling's early career, he was a non-descript reliever for the Orioles and Astros, never doing anything particular of note to distinguish himself, culminating in a disastrous 1991 season in which the Astros tried to use him as a closer and he blew saves left and right.

In Smoltz's case, you had a Cy Young-winning starter, who was asked at the tail end of his prime to move to the bullpen and the guy racked up 154 saves in four years, which included finishing third in the Cy Young voting in 2002 and two more All-Star appearances. Smoltz, at the age of 38, became a started again and won 44 more games, made another All-Star team and finished 6th in the Cy Young voting at the age of 40.

Smoltz, is a Hall of Famer, Schilling, is not.

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JohnnyHector

JohnnyHector

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Johnny Hector kept bringing up Schilling's early years in the bullpen.

I brought it up to counter your simple-minded argument of Schilling's win total being low for someone who pitched for "20 seasons". The fact is, that he broke into the majors as a 21-year old and started a whopping 5 games in his first 4 years in the bigs. Throw in a few seasons in which he was injured and all told, he only started 20+ games in 13 seasons.

You continuing to harp on the pathetic "20 seasons" point only proves that your argument against Schilling has no teeth and is based entirely on your personal bias against him.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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I brought it up to counter your simple-minded argument of Schilling's win total being low for someone who pitched for "20 seasons". The fact is, that he broke into the majors as a 21-year old and started a whopping 5 games in his first 4 years in the bigs. Throw in a few seasons in which he was injured and all told, he only started 20+ games in 13 seasons.

You continuing to harp on the pathetic "20 seasons" point only proves that your argument against Schilling has no teeth and is based entirely on your personal bias against him.

Stop with the bias against him. I've already stated I hate Pedro Martinez but I believe he belongs in the Hall. I also thought Jim Rice did belong in the Hall.

My two favorite players of all-time are Thurman Munson and Bernie Williams.

Munson, I believe does belong in the Hall yet was not voted in but will eventually get in by virtue of the veteran's committee.

As far as Bernie is concerned, I don't think he's getting in and what's more, I'm not sure he deserves to get in. Bernie won a batting title, four Gold Gloves, five All-Star games, and like Schilling, was a great postseason performer, winning the 1996 ALCS MVP, and finishing his career as the all-time leader in postseason HRs and RBI. He also had an seven-year stretch in which he hit .305 or better.

Bernie's case is also only made stronger by playing the steroid era. But I don't think he did enough to put himself over the top. The Yanks should retire his jersey, but he's not a Hall of Famer. And this is my all-time favorite player!

So you cut that bias bull**** right now.

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ZachEY

ZachEY

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Stop with the bias against him. I've already stated I hate Pedro Martinez but I believe he belongs in the Hall.

Admitting that you think one of the greatest pitchers of all time belongs in the HoF in spite of the fact that you hate him does not mean you're not biased against another player who you hate that's closer to the fringe.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Admitting that you think one of the greatest pitchers of all time belongs in the HoF in spite of the fact that you hate him does not mean you're not biased against another player who you hate that's closer to the fringe.

Responding to half my post when the rest of my post addresses exactly what you're bitching about is weak.

It also proves you didn't read the whole thread, because if you had, you'd know that Pedro's name was brought up as an example of someone who won around the same number of games as Schilling yet belongs in the Hall due to a bunch of other accomplishments, including three Cy Young Awards.

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ZachEY

ZachEY

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Responding to half my post when the rest of my post addresses exactly what you're bitching about is weak.

It also proves you didn't read the whole thread, because if you had, you'd know that Pedro's name was brought up as an example of someone who won around the same number of games as Schilling yet belongs in the Hall due to a bunch of other accomplishments, including three Cy Young Awards.

I have in fact read the whole thread, and like everyone else, based on the facts presented, realize that you're making an incredibly poor argument. It's not that no one gets it, it's that your getting crushed. It happens.

And Pedro is a super-star, if you were to not acknowledge that, you'd lose all credibility. Shilling is a very good to great pitcher, so a debate can be made on whether or not he belongs in the hall of fame. That's the point, the rest of your post about Bernie Williams doesn't mean anything to anyone reading this, it's fluff.

In simplistic terms... It's possible to be curtail your biases when they'd make you look completely absurd, but demonstrate them in situations where there's a little more of a gray area.

Like I said, I don't know much about baseball history, I don't give a rats ass about the hall of fame, I'm a Mets fan, and going by the evidence in this thread, you're not making much of an argument at all. If you were, wouldn't someone agree with you?

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PFSIKH

PFSIKH

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Bob Lemon had 7 20-win seasons, Schilling has 3, not to mention 8 All-Star appearances to Schilling's 6. Lemon also only played 13 years.

Don Drysdale only pitched 14 years, had a lower ERA than Schilling by nearly half a run and won a Cy Young Award.

Stan Covelski had a lower ERA than Don Drysdale and five 20-win seasons, including a stretch of four in a row. Add in his 1917 season in which he won 19 and in a five year stretch he won 111 games, Schilling ever come close to that? He also only pitched 14 years.

The point is, all of those guys did other mind-blowing things that made them Hall of Famers.

The pitcher I keep thinking of is John Smoltz, mainly because Johnny Hector kept bringing up Schilling's early years in the bullpen.

Let's examine that, in Schilling's early career, he was a non-descript reliever for the Orioles and Astros, never doing anything particular of note to distinguish himself, culminating in a disastrous 1991 season in which the Astros tried to use him as a closer and he blew saves left and right.

In Smoltz's case, you had a Cy Young-winning starter, who was asked at the tail end of his prime to move to the bullpen and the guy racked up 154 saves in four years, which included finishing third in the Cy Young voting in 2002 and two more All-Star appearances. Smoltz, at the age of 38, became a started again and won 44 more games, made another All-Star team and finished 6th in the Cy Young voting at the age of 40.

Smoltz, is a Hall of Famer, Schilling, is not.

Good points.

I think it is kind of difficult to compare pitchers like Lemon and Drysdale to pitchers of this era. Pitchers are used differently.

-Drysdale had five straight seasons of 40 plus starts. He had over 40 appearances in 11 straight seasons.

-Lemon had relief appearances in each season despite being one of the best pitchers of his era.

I understand your point about their shorter careers (relatively speaking) and having as many wins as Curt. However, I believe you have to consider that pitchers do not make that many starts anymore. Or used to finish games on their off days. CC made 35 starts last year. Drysdale had 9 straight seasons with 36 or more. That is why 300 wins is harder to accomplish.

Anyways, back on point. IMHO given that Curt hit 200 wins despite toiling 11 years in Philadelphia, is among the leaders in Ks and his post season success, he is worthy of the Hall.

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JohnnyHector

JohnnyHector

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Stop with the bias against him. I've already stated I hate Pedro Martinez but I believe he belongs in the Hall. I also thought Jim Rice did belong in the Hall.

My two favorite players of all-time are Thurman Munson and Bernie Williams.

Munson, I believe does belong in the Hall yet was not voted in but will eventually get in by virtue of the veteran's committee.

As far as Bernie is concerned, I don't think he's getting in and what's more, I'm not sure he deserves to get in. Bernie won a batting title, four Gold Gloves, five All-Star games, and like Schilling, was a great postseason performer, winning the 1996 ALCS MVP, and finishing his career as the all-time leader in postseason HRs and RBI. He also had an seven-year stretch in which he hit .305 or better.

Bernie's case is also only made stronger by playing the steroid era. But I don't think he did enough to put himself over the top. The Yanks should retire his jersey, but he's not a Hall of Famer. And this is my all-time favorite player!

So you cut that bias bull**** right now.

You're not sure he deserves to get in?

Let's do a checklist to determine his worthiness:

- Did not amass close to 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. I only bring it up since you're a fan of milestone numbers

- Never finished higher than 7th in the MVP voting

- Five All-Star game appearances (when his coach was selecting the reserves every year)

- Four Gold Gloves

- Won a batting title (the only impressive stat in this list)

- Hit 30 HR's once in his career

- Career BA under .300 (albeit, not by much)

- Below-average baserunner for a CF

- An AVERAGE postseason perfomer/compiler: 465 AB's, 2.75 BA, 22 HR, 80 RBI

So, other than winning one battling title, making a few All-Star teams, winning some Gold Gloves, and being a postseason compiler, what even makes you pause to consider whether or not Bernie Williams belongs in the HOF - other than the pinstripes, that is...

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Good points.

I think it is kind of difficult to compare pitchers like Lemon and Drysdale to pitchers of this era. Pitchers are used differently.

-Drysdale had five straight seasons of 40 plus starts. He had over 40 appearances in 11 straight seasons.

-Lemon had relief appearances in each season despite being one of the best pitchers of his era.

I understand your point about their shorter careers (relatively speaking) and having as many wins as Curt. However, I believe you have to consider that pitchers do not make that many starts anymore. Or used to finish games on their off days. CC made 35 starts last year. Drysdale had 9 straight seasons with 36 or more. That is why 300 wins is harder to accomplish.

Anyways, back on point. IMHO given that Curt hit 200 wins despite toiling 11 years in Philadelphia, is among the leaders in Ks and his post season success, he is worthy of the Hall.

Finally, someone who wants to debate like a grownup.

When you compare across eras it is difficult, but the fact that pitchers of the past pitched more often definitely weighs heavily in their favor in more ways than one.

What I'll never understand is how the pitchers of today break down so much more often despite pitching so much less.

Like I've said many times in this thread, I really don't care if anyone agrees with me or not, or more accurately, whether they've felt strongly enough to verbalize it in this thread or not. I really don't get this nonsense that I should be embarrassed because a very small sampling of people on this message board disagree with me. Who gives a flying ****? I'm here for the debate anyway, it would be boring as hell if we all agreed.

The proof will come on voting day the first year he is eligible, which is still up in the air if he pitches again.

I just don't believe he will get in. There are too many pitchers with a stronger case from his era, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez, Smoltz, Rivera, to name a few and the writers just simply dislike the guy. Hell, they kept Jim Rice out until the last possible year of his eligibility and they didn't hate him nearly as much as they hate Schilling and he had a stronger resume.

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JohnnyHector

JohnnyHector

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Finally, someone who wants to debate like a grownup.

Translation:

I've shown my true colors and made myself look foolish for suggesting that there may be some debate as to Bernie Williams HOF worthiness when I've been so adamant that Curt Schilling should not be enshrined.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Translation:

I've shown my true colors and made myself look foolish for suggesting that there may be some debate as to Bernie Williams HOF worthiness when I've been so adamant that Curt Schilling should not be enshrined.

Translation: I have nothing of value to say so I am going to respond to one line of a multi-paragraph post by claiming victory like I'm a four-year-old and hope that EY and Kleck's other buddies who live to bust his balls pile on.

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JohnnyHector

JohnnyHector

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Translation: I have nothing of value to say so I am going to respond to one line of a multi-paragraph post by claiming victory like I'm a four-year-old and hope that EY and Kleck's other buddies who live to bust his balls pile on.

Nah, I was done with the Schilling debate, as you clearly can't see past your hatred for him to even concede that he is at least worthy of consideration for the Hall.

I was more concerned with your lack of response to my anti-Bernie post (which I believe had enough value to not be ignored).

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