Halladay vs. Santana

[Guido Monzino]

it's not end of story......it's a completely hypothetical scenario. therw is just no way to know what would have happened. maybe halladay gets hurt running the bases, maybe he gives up more runs/game than johan did and hence loses more games. maybe a har dliner hits him in the c*ck and he's out for the season. or, maybe he can't handle the pressure of playing on a big market and has a bad year. you just don't know what wpould have happened because he wasn't here. and either way, it still doesn't prove your point. i could say if the mets have k-rod instead of halladay they probably make the play-offs....but maybe they don't. it's all what-if and you can't make a point with what if. what if the ball doesn't go under buckners legs. what if vinny doesn't tear his achilles. what if, what if, what if. it just doesnt work that way. the numbers say tha tjohan has been a better pitcher over their careers than halladay has been. is he head and shoulders better? no, they're close.....but johan has still been slightly better in ever category but complete games. complete games are nice, but in todays baseball they're just not there anymore. is it because all of a sudden only halladay can do it? no. it's because thats the way the game is played now. and, especially in the NL where pitchers ar epulled for batters all the time, halladays complete game totals would go down. so thats another what-if you can add......you keep arguing with what-ifs...i'll stick to the facts.

The biggest "if" scenario I'm sure is a fact is that if Santana pitched for any NL team but the Mets right now, you'd wouldn't be arguing with me.

[Otter]

that doesn't make sense.....only because if i'm starting a team i'm not worried about 15 years down the road. that's just too far ahead to be looking. i'm looking for dominance for the next 5-7 years and, in that case, i'm taking pedro over anybody in the game today. when pedro was on he was one of the best pitchers ever to play. and the fact he did it all in the steroids era is even more impressive.

I agree. Pedro from 98 to 02/03 was the best pitcher I've ever seen. The only way the Yankees could beat him during that time was to take pitches, wear him out and then beat up on the Sox pen. Which they did many times.

[Guido Monzino]

I agree. Pedro from 98 to 02/03 was the best pitcher I've ever seen. The only way the Yankees could beat him during that time was to take pitches, wear him out and then beat up on the Sox pen. Which they did many times.

Which coincidentally is how they beat Santana too, because they were capable of that with that lineup. No NL team now does have that capability. Which is why he is so good.

Meanwhile, no matter how good your lineup is, there is no strategy for beating Halladay. All he does is throw strikes.

2008:

Halladay 0.16 walks/inning

Santana 0.27 walks/inning

That's almost twice as many. Wait, I thought Santana had him beat in every stat

[Otter]

Which coincidentally is how they beat Santana too, because they were capable of that with that lineup. No NL team now does have that capability.

Meanwhile, no matter how good your lineup is, there is no strategy for beating Halladay. All he does is throw strikes.

2008:

Halladay 0.16 walks/inning

Santana 0.27 walks/inning

That's almost twice as many. Wait, I thought Santana had him beat in every stat

The other night it seemed that he was ahead 0-2 or 1-2 on every batter.

I think Santana and Halladay are 1 and 1A, but I give Halladay the nod because he's a horse and he pitches in the best division in baseball. Plus I see him shut down the Yankees 5 times a year, which frustrates the hell out of me.

[Matt39]

Which coincidentally is how they beat Santana too, because they were capable of that with that lineup. No NL team now does have that capability. Which is why he is so good.

Meanwhile, no matter how good your lineup is, there is no strategy for beating Halladay. All he does is throw strikes.

2008:

Halladay 0.16 walks/inning

Santana 0.27 walks/inning

That's almost twice as many. Wait, I thought Santana had him beat in every stat

Every time I watch the Yanks face Halladay I wonder why they dont try and jump on him early in the count, or even the first pitch. He has to be the best pitcher in the Bigs for throwing first strikes.

Before you know it, you're down 0-2 against Doc.

[Guido Monzino]

The other night it seemed that he was ahead 0-2 or 1-2 on every batter.

I think Santana and Halladay are 1 and 1A, but I give Halladay the nod because he's a horse and he pitches in the best division in baseball. Plus I see him shut down the Yankees 5 times a year, which frustrates the hell out of me.

Some people seem to think that being Pitcher "1A" is some kind of a shot at a guy. Be careful.

[Guido Monzino]

Every time I watch the Yanks face Halladay I wonder why they dont try and jump on him early in the count, or even the first pitch. He has to be the best pitcher in the Bigs for throwing first strikes.

Before you know it, you're down 0-2 against Doc.

That's a good approach if you want to lose in an hour and a half instead of two and a half.

[GimmeShelter]

that doesn't make sense.....only because if i'm starting a team i'm not worried about 15 years down the road. that's just too far ahead to be looking. i'm looking for dominance for the next 5-7 years and, in that case, i'm taking pedro over anybody in the game today. when pedro was on he was one of the best pitchers ever to play. and the fact he did it all in the steroids era is even more impressive.

Besides Halladay has been hurt more than Johan. They are both great, great pitchers but the majority of baseball acknowledges Santana as the best in the game. When Halladay wins the triple crown of pitching for a 3 or 4 year run as Johan has or gets his ERA to the level we are seeing from Johan 'right now" then I guess we can debate this.

[JetsMetsRangers]

Santana is the better pitcher by far...but if I were to start a team I may go with Halladay over Santana only because I feel Santana could break down before Doc...I feel like Santana's size and frame could not take as much of a punishment over the life of his career as Doc could...

I could be wrong, but to me Johann is Pedro-like while Doc is Maddox-like....

Thing is going by history Santana has been the more durable pitcher.....He has averaged 7 more starts a year than Halladay the last 5 years, 168 to 136 and is 2 years younger to boot....

Santana is also a great athlete and fields his position extremely well and can run and swing the bat pretty well for a pitcher also....I'll stick with Johan...

[Otter]

Thing is going by history Santana has been the more durable pitcher.....He has averaged 7 more starts a year than Halladay the last 5 years, 168 to 136 and is 2 years younger to boot....

Santana is also a great athlete and fields his position extremely well and can run and swing the bat pretty well for a pitcher also....I'll stick with Johan...

Halladay has been on the DL a few times in his career (04 and 05). One thing that stood out to me was that Halladay has 41 career complete games, Santana has 9.

[neckdemon]

Which coincidentally is how they beat Santana too, because they were capable of that with that lineup. No NL team now does have that capability. Which is why he is so good.

Meanwhile, no matter how good your lineup is, there is no strategy for beating Halladay. All he does is throw strikes.

2008:

Halladay 0.16 walks/inning

Santana 0.27 walks/inning

That's almost twice as many. Wait, I thought Santana had him beat in every stat

great...so you took whip and split it up in an attempt to make it favor halladay because he walks slightly less batters than johan. but, he gives up alot more hits. 8.8/9 for halladay and 7.4/9 for johan. halladay has johan beat by .4/9 for walks. but when you put it together for the complete stats (whip) johan dominates again. as well as the fact that johan dominates era and k/9 and k/bb at 3.74 to 3.13. nice try to put a spin on it though to make it look like halladay actually had johan beaten somewhere. johan has the better win%, better era+....etc etc. hey halladay is a great pitcher and i'd love him on my team. but johan is just a little better.

[Matt39]

That's a good approach if you want to lose in an hour and a half instead of two and a half.

So Roy Halladay is invincible?

[neckdemon]

So Roy Halladay is invincible?

best pitcher to ever play the game.......

i mean the man has 41 complete games...that's unfu*king heard of.

not only that, but i heard he fu*ked chuck norris in the ass while yelling take this you white b*tch. dude is hardcore.

[Guido Monzino]

great...so you took whip and split it up in an attempt to make it favor halladay because he walks slightly less batters than johan. but, he gives up alot more hits. 8.8/9 for halladay and 7.4/9 for johan. halladay has johan beat by .4/9 for walks. but when you put it together for the complete stats (whip) johan dominates again. as well as the fact that johan dominates era and k/9 and k/bb at 3.74 to 3.13. nice try to put a spin on it though to make it look like halladay actually had johan beaten somewhere. johan has the better win%, better era+....etc etc. hey halladay is a great pitcher and i'd love him on my team. but johan is just a little better.

Walks are no indication of a picther's control? Therefore his ability to go deeper into games by throwing less pitches? Get with the program, sonny.

The reason Halladay gives up more hits is because he throws more strikes than Johan. Ask yourself what would you rather have your pitcher do with no one on base? Give up a walk on the 9th pitch of an at-bat? Or a single on the 1st or 2nd? It's a no-brainer.

The hits difference can additionally be attributed to the the difference between facing an AL DH and and NL pitcher each time through thelineup, plus the difference in overall hitting talent in the two leagues.

[Guido Monzino]

So Roy Halladay is invincible?

No one is. Anyone can have an off day (or even make a couple of mistakes in a game). But at his best, he's as close as you can get.

The point is, there is no game plan for him. Your game plan is hope that he has a bad night.

[neckdemon]

Walks are no indication of a picther's control? Therefore his ability to go deeper into games by throwing less pitches? Get with the program, sonny.

The reason Halladay gives up more hits is because he throws more strikes than Johan. Ask yourself what would you rather have your pitcher do with no one on base? Give up a walk on the 9th pitch of an at-bat? Or a single on the 1st or 2nd? It's a no-brainer.

The hits difference can additionally be attributed to the the difference between facing an AL DH and and NL pitcher each time through thelineup, plus the difference in overall hitting talent in the two leagues.

dude...you're the one who needs to get with the program. you've demonstrated again and again in this thread that you've got no basis for your argument other than a subjective opinion and a string of what-ifs. that stat is whip....you can break it up if you like but the main objective is to limit the number of baserunners per inning and johan does this more effectively than halladay does. not only that but he gives up less runs per game than halladay and he wins a greater number of his starts than halladay does. let's embelish on your scenario...runners on second and third would you rather give up the walk or the single? and who says that it has to be a 9 pitch walk vs. a 2 pitch single. it could be also be a 9-pitch single. and....let me refresh your memory because you seem to be stuck on this AL vs. NL thing. johan played almost all of his career in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. he just moved ovee the NL a littel over ONE YEAR AGO. his career stats while he wa sint american league were still better than halladays...and the man won a triple crown while playing in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. and he won 2 CY YOUNG awards in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. so you can stop brigning that up now, cause it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about...or that you just started watching baseball about a month ago.

[GimmeShelter]

Walks are no indication of a picther's control? Therefore his ability to go deeper into games by throwing less pitches? Get with the program, sonny.

The reason Halladay gives up more hits is because he throws more strikes than Johan. Ask yourself what would you rather have your pitcher do with no one on base? Give up a walk on the 9th pitch of an at-bat? Or a single on the 1st or 2nd? It's a no-brainer.

The hits difference can additionally be attributed to the the difference between facing an AL DH and and NL pitcher each time through thelineup, plus the difference in overall hitting talent in the two leagues.

Have you forgotten that Johan pitched in the AL? Absolutely dominated the AL?

BTW that statement in bold is insane even for you. Throughout this entire thread you have taken pieces of what equals WHIP , assumed you knew which games the Mets pen would or wouldn't blow and attempted to make the fact that Johan is NOW in the NL as a reason he couldn't do as well in a league he has already pissed all over ...the AL.

Tyler was a treat compared to you in this thread.

[neckdemon]

another thing....halladay has never led his league in era or strike outs....and led his league in wins once. johan has led his league in era 3 times, twice while pitching in the AMERICAN LEAGUE...led his league in strikeouts 3 times, all while pitching in the AMERICAN LEAGUE....and led his league in wins once also which was while he wa spitching in, say it with me, the AMERICAN LEAGUE.

[PFSIKH]

Walks are no indication of a picther's control? Therefore his ability to go deeper into games by throwing less pitches? Get with the program, sonny.

The reason Halladay gives up more hits is because he throws more strikes than Johan. Ask yourself what would you rather have your pitcher do with no one on base? Give up a walk on the 9th pitch of an at-bat? Or a single on the 1st or 2nd? It's a no-brainer.

The hits difference can additionally be attributed to the the difference between facing an AL DH and and NL pitcher each time through thelineup, plus the difference in overall hitting talent in the two leagues.

What?

He gives up more hits because Johan's stuff is better. Johan has a better fastball and the game's best curve. He makes people swing and miss and I think that is the ultimate goal.

[JetsMetsRangers]

Halladay has been on the DL a few times in his career (04 and 05). One thing that stood out to me was that Halladay has 41 career complete games, Santana has 9.

He does have those complete games and that is impressive....But if you look at the last 3 years Halladay has thrown for 691 innings and Santana 687...Granted Santana has 5 more starts during that period but just goes to show it is not the stark difference people think it is.....

Halladay may average a little more in innings per start but he also does not make every start like Santana.....Santana still throws as many innings as Halladay just with a few more starts....Give Halladay another 35 innings for those 5 starts and it brings his number up to 726 innings which bring his average the last 3 years to only 13 innings more a year than Santana, not a significant enough difference in my view to offset the areas where Santana is clearly more dominant...

[Gainzo]

Santana is a better pitcher than Halladay.

Don't get me wrong as I would take Halladay any day of the week on the Red Sox but if both were available Santana would be my pick.

[Zeebers]

Which coincidentally is how they beat Santana too, because they were capable of that with that lineup. No NL team now does have that capability. Which is why he is so good.

Meanwhile, no matter how good your lineup is, there is no strategy for beating Halladay. All he does is throw strikes.

2008:

Halladay 0.16 walks/inning

Santana 0.27 walks/inning

That's almost twice as many. Wait, I thought Santana had him beat in every stat

Your argument was weak before, and that argument being, but "Doc has more complete games so of course he is better". I think I've proven my point in terms of a pitchers value and Santana's overall dominance. As you say, there is no knock on Halladay being not as good as Santana. I don't know why you continue to hammer that point when your point is all but projections. We live in a world of reality.

When you try to separate walks and hits away from WHIP to prove your point. That's when you know you have no more argument. To me it doesn't even matter if you hate the Mets. It just seems more and more like you hate reality.

PS. Here's a questions for you. Should Joba be a starter knowing that he is a guy that goes 5+ and if he goes 6 you're counting your blessings. How good would you rate Joba? I am merely curious and do not care if Joba is in the Pen or starting.

[Blackout]

Johan 4 sho

[adb280z]

Walks are no indication of a picther's control? Therefore his ability to go deeper into games by throwing less pitches? Get with the program, sonny.

The reason Halladay gives up more hits is because he throws more strikes than Johan. Ask yourself what would you rather have your pitcher do with no one on base? Give up a walk on the 9th pitch of an at-bat? Or a single on the 1st or 2nd? It's a no-brainer.

The hits difference can additionally be attributed to the the difference between facing an AL DH and and NL pitcher each time through thelineup, plus the difference in overall hitting talent in the two leagues.

The overall difference in hitting between the two leagues is non existent if you are disregarding the DH.

[neckdemon]

What?

He gives up more hits because Johan's stuff is better. Johan has a better fastball and the game's best curve. He makes people swing and miss and I think that is the ultimate goal.

actually johan has the games best changeup......but either way.

[Guido Monzino]

dude...you're the one who needs to get with the program. you've demonstrated again and again in this thread that you've got no basis for your argument other than a subjective opinion and a string of what-ifs. that stat is whip....you can break it up if you like but the main objective is to limit the number of baserunners per inning and johan does this more effectively than halladay does. not only that but he gives up less runs per game than halladay and he wins a greater number of his starts than halladay does. let's embelish on your scenario...runners on second and third would you rather give up the walk or the single? and who says that it has to be a 9 pitch walk vs. a 2 pitch single. it could be also be a 9-pitch single. and....let me refresh your memory because you seem to be stuck on this AL vs. NL thing. johan played almost all of his career in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. he just moved ovee the NL a littel over ONE YEAR AGO. his career stats while he wa sint american league were still better than halladays...and the man won a triple crown while playing in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. and he won 2 CY YOUNG awards in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. so you can stop brigning that up now, cause it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about...or that you just started watching baseball about a month ago.

You know what? I know a lot about you from our history on JI. And I just remembered how much time I'm wasting on you. If I thought you had any knowledge about baseball, or were anything other than a complete Mets schill, them I might continue this conversation.

[neckdemon]

You know what? I know a lot about you from our history on JI. And I just remembered how much time I'm wasting on you. If I thought you had any knowledge about baseball, or were anything other than a complete Mets schill, them I might continue this conversation.

lol.....oh yeah you got me. you're so much more knowledgable about baseball than i am. this is the statement of a man who has lost a debate and can't think of anything remotely intelligent to say.....i'd just like to take this final time to point out that you still haven't provided any factual evidence to support your stance. i mean seriously....your NL vs. AL argument is obviously ridiculous since johan owned the AL for most of his career anyway. i already pissed all over your attempt at spinning the WHIP argument into halladays favor. the only thing you have left is that halladay has more complete games. insulting my baseball knowledge is the only thing you have left to save face. a desperate attempt at saving a drowning argument. it's a pity you've displayed none of this baseball knowledge on your own behalf. you, sir, are no jack kennedy.

[Guido Monzino]

lol.....oh yeah you got me. you're so much more knowledgable about baseball than i am. this is the statement of a man who has lost a debate and can't think of anything remotely intelligent to say.....i'd just like to take this final time to point out that you still haven't provided any factual evidence to support your stance. i mean seriously....your NL vs. AL argument is obviously ridiculous since johan owned the AL for most of his career anyway. i already pissed all over your attempt at spinning the WHIP argument into halladays favor. the only thing you have left is that halladay has more complete games. insulting my baseball knowledge is the only thing you have left to save face. a desperate attempt at saving a drowning argument. it's a pity you've displayed none of this baseball knowledge on your own behalf. you, sir, are no jack kennedy.

Hey neck - sorry about that post last night. Was pretty wasted, don't even remember writing it. I know its not an excuse, but thats what happened. Pretty lame of me.

Anyway, I'm hungover now, maybe I can focus and get back to a discussion later. Sorry again. But you're still wrong about Halladay

[neckdemon]

Hey neck - sorry about that post last night. Was pretty wasted, don't even remember writing it. I know its not an excuse, but thats what happened. Pretty lame of me.

Anyway, I'm hungover now, maybe I can focus and get back to a discussion later. Sorry again. But you're still wrong about Halladay

don't worry about it.....i don't take this stuff personally at all. i don't expect to change your mind, i just like to try to win, lol.

[Bergen Jet]

Zack Grienke

This year... no doubt about it.

[PFSIKH]

actually johan has the games best changeup......but either way.

Mea culpa.

[Guido Monzino]

don't worry about it.....i don't take this stuff personally at all. i don't expect to change your mind, i just like to try to win, lol.

Any way, I ate my McDonald's breakfast. Back to it. I do want to apologize more:

I'm sorry that you don't get that there is a big difference between pitching in the NL and pitching in the AL. Even if you foolishly overlook the fact that the lineups are deeper and more potent in the AL, even common sense should tell you that the DH rule alone makes it tougher. It seems everyone in baseball - players, managers, agents, owners, fans, etc. - understands the difference except for a handful of homerific Mets fans who can not accept facts that they take as a slight against their team somehow.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that what Santana did in the AL 5 years ago has absolutely no bearing on a current comparison of two picthers in two different leagues. Because they face different competition, comparing their ERA or their WHIP is silly. It's comparable to saying that a guy in high school with a 2.50 ERA is better than a college pitcher with a 2.60 ERA. The numbers aren't comparable, but if you still insist on doing so, you're going to love this next paragraph.

I'm also sorry that you put so much stock in WHIP. I don't even think you know how to appropriately use the stat. Dave Bush and Ricky Nolasco had lower WHIP's than Santana last year. Does that mean they were better pitchers that him last year? You shoot yourself in the foot and fail even further in not recognizing that Roy Halladay LED MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL in what seems to be your favorite stat in 2008 at 1.05.

I'm sorry that you don't see any value in pitching deeper into games, which we have established that Halladay does do. I feel bad that you don't comprehend how this helps your entire pitching staff and as a result, the whole team. Maybe you would prefer a start in which your guy goes 7 innings, gives up 1 run on 2 walks and 2 hits. I prefer the guy who is just at dominant, but goes 8 innings and gives up 1 run on 1 walk and 4 hits. Granted, the guy that went 7 had a lower WHIP, but my team is better off because of the extra inning than yours. I might prefer your guy in this example for my fantasy team, but in real life, I like my guy. Maybe you just value stats more than I do. If so, enjoy. I just prefer my team to win as many games as possible, stats be damned.

I also feel bad that you can't see that I'm not knocking Santana. It must not be that fun having a constantly defensive attitude about your team. Santana is a dominant pitcher. Halladay is a dominant pitcher. No one disputes that. I just prefer the guy that does it more efficiently. The real story here is that there is no way you would be arguing this if Santana was on the Brewers instead of the Mets. That is a fact.

[neckdemon]

Any way, I ate my McDonald's breakfast. Back to it. I do want to apologize more:

I'm sorry that you don't get that there is a big difference between pitching in the NL and pitching in the AL. Even if you foolishly overlook the fact that the lineups are deeper and more potent in the AL, even common sense should tell you that the DH rule alone makes it tougher. It seems everyone in baseball - players, managers, agents, owners, fans, etc. - understands the difference except for a handful of homerific Mets fans who can not accept facts that they take as a slight against their team somehow.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that what Santana did in the AL 5 years ago has absolutely no bearing on a current comparison of two picthers in two different leagues. Because they face different competition, comparing their ERA or their WHIP is silly. It's comparable to saying that a guy in high school with a 2.50 ERA is better than a college pitcher with a 2.60 ERA. The numbers aren't comparable, but if you still insist on doing so, you're going to love this next paragraph.

I'm also sorry that you put so much stock in WHIP. I don't even think you know how to appropriately use the stat. Dave Bush and Ricky Nolasco had lower WHIP's than Santana last year. Does that mean they were better pitchers that him last year? You shoot yourself in the foot and fail even further in not recognizing that Roy Halladay LED MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL in what seems to be your favorite stat in 2008 at 1.05.

I'm sorry that you don't see any value in pitching deeper into games, which we have established that Halladay does do. I feel bad that you don't comprehend how this helps your entire pitching staff and as a result, the whole team. Maybe you would prefer a start in which your guy goes 7 innings, gives up 1 run on 2 walks and 2 hits. I prefer the guy who is just at dominant, but goes 8 innings and gives up 1 run on 1 walk and 4 hits. Granted, the guy that went 7 had a lower WHIP, but my team is better off because of the extra inning than yours. I might prefer your guy in this example for my fantasy team, but in real life, I like my guy. Maybe you just value stats more than I do. If so, enjoy. I just prefer my team to win as many games as possible, stats be damned.

I also feel bad that you can't see that I'm not knocking Santana. It must not be that fun having a constantly defensive attitude about your team. Santana is a dominant pitcher. Halladay is a dominant pitcher. No one disputes that. I just prefer the guy that does it more efficiently. The real story here is that there is no way you would be arguing this if Santana was on the Brewers instead of the Mets. That is a fact.

let's see what happens by the end of this season if you want to compare current seasons. one thing though, johan has only been out of the AL for barely more than one seaosn...not 5. also......i wonder what your stance on this subject would be if johan ended up a yankee (2 can play that game). i'd guess (i know this is hypothetical, but you seem to be good at using mostly hypothetical situaitons in your argument here) that you'd be deeming johan the second coming of jesus right about now with the season he's having so far.

[GimmeShelter]

let's see what happens by the end of this season if you want to compare current seasons. one thing though, johan has only been out of the AL for barely more than one seaosn...not 5. also......i wonder what your stance on this subject would be if johan ended up a yankee (2 can play that game). i'd guess (i know this is hypothetical, but you seem to be good at using mostly hypothetical situaitons in your argument here) that you'd be deeming johan the second coming of jesus right about now with the season he's having so far.

+1. I can't believe his argument continues to be that Johan is NOW in the NL after he has already pissed all over the big bad AL. I could understabd that stance if Halladay had been the better pitcher during Johan's time in the AL but that is not the case.

If Johan was currently struggling I would also understand but hes ERA is UNDER 1.

[Guido Monzino]

+1. I can't believe his argument continues to be that Johan is NOW in the NL after he has already pissed all over the big bad AL. I could understabd that stance if Halladay had been the better pitcher during Johan's time in the AL but that is not the case.

If Johan was currently struggling I would also understand but hes ERA is UNDER 1.

What don't you understand about the term "right now"?