Westerman

[Smashmouth]

Klecko your right about what a 3-4 DE's job is but its too bad the Jets were not lined up that way when Vernon was in the game. The Jets use multiple fronts maybe you should have noticed that. I highly doubt Rex Ryan would play a 260 pound DE in a 3-4 alignment and ask him to occupy blockers.

[Irish Jet]

Not once was Vernon Gholston being used as a traditional 3-4 End.

Seriously, I can't be bothered debating with someone who is blatantly making stuff up to support his case.

[Smashmouth]

Not once was Vernon Gholston being used as a traditional 3-4 End.

Seriously, I can't be bothered debating with someone who is blatantly making stuff up to support his case.

Exactly

[Klecko73isGod]

Guys, you REALLY need to watch the game again.

[Smashmouth]

Guys, you REALLY need to watch the game again.

Kleck Im sorry but I remember him being lined up in a front 4. It makes no sense to play him on the line in a 3-4 hes out of his league in that situation.

[Irish Jet]

Watched the game twice brah, it just didn't happen.

[Klecko73isGod]

Kleck Im sorry but I remember him being lined up in a front 4. It makes no sense to play him on the line in a 3-4 hes out of his league in that situation.

Smash, for most of the second half passing downs, Ryan employed a strange front with Marques Douglass at weakside DE, Shaun Ellis at NT and Gholston at strongside DE. Usually this was with only two LBs, bu sometimes there were as many as five LBs.

Trust me, if you watch the game again, you will see it and you will see Gholston consistently double teamed as Mawae attempts to take on Ellis one on one with Ellis usually getting the better of the battle.

[JiFtheOracle]

What we have here is a football player who plays like he has a broomstick up his ass. But you and your brilliant assessment of his play claim Improvement . When you Improve from absolute disaster to terrible is that really Improvement ?

How many tackles does VG have, Klecko ?

How many Legit QB Pressures ?

What has this guy done to justify Improvement over two freakin years ?

You laughed at my assessment of where he will be when Pace gets back, but in all your football brilliance you offered nothing in return.

He had at least 3 QB pressures yesterday, 1 led to Kerry having to get rid of the ball early and throwing a pick.

VG had just as many tackles as any other OLB or DL player for the NY Jets.

He has improved, what else do you want him to do? Did you really expect him to be Suggs 3 games into this D?

Again, he played 90% of the snaps yesterday on the one of the best D's in the league.

Not once was Vernon Gholston being used as a traditional 3-4 End.

Seriously, I can't be bothered debating with someone who is blatantly making stuff up to support his case.

He played 3-4 DE numerous times yesterday. You and Smash clearly need to watch this game again.

Nobody is saying VG is Pace. Nobody is saying VG is great or even good by an means or that he is living up to his $$$ or draft position. We are saying he played well yesterday and if you dont see that, then I got nothing for you.

You are either hating to hate and cant give credit when credit is due or you dont know what you are watching.

[Smashmouth]

He had at least 3 QB pressures yesterday, 1 led to Kerry having to get rid of the ball early and throwing a pick.

VG had just as many tackles as any other OLB or DL player for the NY Jets.

He has improved, what else do you want him to do? Did you really expect him to be Suggs 3 games into this D?

Again, he played 90% of the snaps yesterday on the one of the best D's in the league.

He played 3-4 DE numerous times yesterday. You and Smash clearly need to watch this game again.

Nobody is saying VG is Pace. Nobody is saying VG is great or even good by an means or that he is living up to his $$$ or draft position. We are saying he played well yesterday and if you dont see that, then I got nothing for you.

You are either hating to hate and cant give credit when credit is due or you dont know what you are watching.

JIF I never said I wanted him to be Terrell Suggs because thats not happening. I personally do not like the way this kid plays football he is terribly awkward and flat footed.

1. I do not like the fact he NEVER EVER assists on tackles

2. He never dives in to try and force a fumble

3. When he sees someone wrapped up he simply stops in his tracks

4. Still has not learned to come off blocks

5. Plays very slow at the point of attack for the speed that he has

What I see for Vernon Gholston is that he will NEVER EVER be a complete football player. When this current Debacle of a contract is up he WILL be gone from this football team unless he makes some drastic changes . He is way too small to play Defensive End in a 3-4 Scheme and he is too big and flat footed to play OLB. He will, however, be a Pass rushing specialist and thats about it and even in that role he has not produced much because he has no moves and has major problems coming off blocks. I can understand you guys sticking up for the limited amount of improvement he has displayed because he is a young player and thats fine but he has some tell tale signs that hs is not cut out to play in the NFL that to me is painfully obvious.

Also he never lined up as a true 3-4 Defensive End in Sundays game. He lined up on the outside as a pass rusher and got his clock cleaned. Just because he took on two blockers on one play does not make him an improved player The way Aten discribed him holding off 2 offensive lineman (one in each hand ) is almost laughable.

[Aten]

He is way too small to play Defensive End in a 3-4 Scheme and he is too big and flat footed to play OLB. He will, however, be a Pass rushing specialist and thats about it and even in that role he has not produced much because he has no moves and has major problems coming off blocks. I can understand you guys sticking up for the limited amount of improvement he has displayed because he is a young player and thats fine but he has some tell tale signs that hs is not cut out to play in the NFL that to me is painfully obvious.

Also he never lined up as a true 3-4 Defensive End in Sundays game. He lined up on the outside as a pass rusher and got his clock cleaned. Just because he took on two blockers on one play does not make him an improved player The way Aten discribed him holding off 2 offensive lineman (one in each hand ) is almost laughable.

I don't know how you can pretend to have any idea how to assess Gholston's play if you don't even understand the position he's playing. He's rotating with Ellis as the two-way end in Ryan's system. This is the position that Trevor Pryce plays in Baltimore, which does not exist in a typical 3-4 like the one Mangini runs or the one described in the primer you read that made you into an expert on these things. When he's on the strong side, his responsibility is initially to take on the two blockers in front of them. If one of them gets off, his job is to shed the other guy in the direction the first had vacated. If this is the direction of the play, it's his to make; if not he either pursues or plays backside contain, presumably generally the latter when Chris Johnson is on the field. In this case, though, as has been explained to you enough times that you ought to have a pretty clear idea what happened without having watched it, neither blocker got off, so it was the linebackers' job to make the play. It isn't generally contemplated that the end is going to be in a position to do it in that case. It's one thing to beat a double-team going upfield, but just as a simple matter of physics it's something else altogether when the play is behind you. How are you supposed to disengage, turn around and run in the same direction that you're already being driven by the two behemoths bearing down on you? You just get knocked over. You're right that Gholston is undersized for the role, but that's because until a couple of weeks ago they were still trying to make him a rush linebacker and his offseason program was designed accordingly. They'll bulk him up for next year.

[Klecko73isGod]

I don't know how you can pretend to have any idea how to assess Gholston's play if you don't even understand the position he's playing. He's rotating with Ellis as the two-way end in Ryan's system. This is the position that Trevor Pryce plays in Baltimore, which does not exist in a typical 3-4 like the one Mangini runs or the one described in the primer you read that made you into an expert on these things. When he's on the strong side, his responsibility is initially to take on the two blockers in front of them. If one of them gets off, his job is to shed the other guy in the direction the first had vacated. If this is the direction of the play, it's his to make; if not he either pursues or plays backside contain, presumably generally the latter when Chris Johnson is on the field. In this case, though, as has been explained to you enough times that you ought to have a pretty clear idea what happened without having watched it, neither blocker got off, so it was the linebackers' job to make the play. It isn't generally contemplated that the end is going to be in a position to do it in that case. It's one thing to beat a double-team going upfield, but just as a simple matter of physics it's something else altogether when the play is behind you. How are you supposed to disengage, turn around and run in the same direction that you're already being driven by the two behemoths bearing down on you? You just get knocked over. You're right that Gholston is undersized for the role, but that's because until a couple of weeks ago they were still trying to make him a rush linebacker and his offseason program was designed accordingly. They'll bulk him up for next year.

Not to mention that as a complete physical freak, Gholston is one of the few (maybe only) guys in the NFL who is strong enough to play that role at 260 lbs and not get pancaked on every play.

For Ryan to have the faith in him to have him play that role at his size is saying something. And that is a huge positive.

[Kleckineau]

I don't know how you can pretend to have any idea how to assess Gholston's play if you don't even understand the position he's playing. He's rotating with Ellis as the two-way end in Ryan's system. This is the position that Trevor Pryce plays in Baltimore, which does not exist in a typical 3-4 like the one Mangini runs or the one described in the primer you read that made you into an expert on these things. When he's on the strong side, his responsibility is initially to take on the two blockers in front of them. If one of them gets off, his job is to shed the other guy in the direction the first had vacated. If this is the direction of the play, it's his to make; if not he either pursues or plays backside contain, presumably generally the latter when Chris Johnson is on the field. In this case, though, as has been explained to you enough times that you ought to have a pretty clear idea what happened without having watched it, neither blocker got off, so it was the linebackers' job to make the play. It isn't generally contemplated that the end is going to be in a position to do it in that case. It's one thing to beat a double-team going upfield, but just as a simple matter of physics it's something else altogether when the play is behind you. How are you supposed to disengage, turn around and run in the same direction that you're already being driven by the two behemoths bearing down on you? You just get knocked over. You're right that Gholston is undersized for the role, but that's because until a couple of weeks ago they were still trying to make him a rush linebacker and his offseason program was designed accordingly. They'll bulk him up for next year.

So in simpler terms, he stunk it up as a pass rushing linebacker and they are now trying to find something for him to do that he doesnt suck at. The experiment should be over when Pace returns.

Somewhat off topic but who do you guys think wanted this guy at #6?

Was it Mr T or Mangini?

Did this pick contribute to Mangini's firing?

[Klecko73isGod]

So in simpler terms, he stunk it up as a pass rushing linebacker and they are now trying to find something for him to do that he doesnt suck at. The experiment should be over when Pace returns.

Somewhat off topic but who do you guys think wanted this guy at #6?

Was it Mr T or Mangini?

Did this pick contribute to Magini's firing?

WRONG AGAIN. Gholston was picked at 6 because he was considered the consensus best available player. They Jets already had two OLBs who could play as Thomas has played well since moving to the position and Pace had just been signed. Mangini did a horrifically bad job of coaching him last year.

Gholston feels more comfortable rushing from the 3-point stance so as a smart coach Ryan is playing to his strengths.

Pace is more comfortable rushing from a standing position so expect to see them on the field together when Pace comes back.

[#27TheDominator]

Smash, for most of the second half passing downs, Ryan employed a strange front with Marques Douglass at weakside DE, Shaun Ellis at NT and Gholston at strongside DE. Usually this was with only two LBs, bu sometimes there were as many as five LBs.

I think they used Smith as a "LB" on some of the sets. Especially at the end when he was shadowing Johnson.

[Kleckineau]

WRONG AGAIN. Gholston was picked at 6 because he was considered the consensus best available player. They Jets already had two OLBs who could play as Thomas has played well since moving to the position and Pace had just been signed. Mangini did a horrifically bad job of coaching him last year.

Gholston feels more comfortable rushing from the 3-point stance so as a smart coach Ryan is playing to his strengths.

Pace is more comfortable rushing from a standing position so expect to see them on the field together when Pace comes back.

I get it now. Gholston was a great pick and is still a super athlete who's only problem was having been coached by Mangini last year.

Why not just boil this debate down to the simplest of terms.

I know hindsight is 20/20 etc etc BUT.

btw....

Knowing what you know now about VG,

If given the chance, would you or would you not draft VG at #6 again.

Lets cut the bull and see what the VG blowers have to say.

No explanations or long winded speaches please just......

YES OR NO

[Klecko73isGod]

I get it now. Gholston was a great pick and is still a super athlete who's only problem was having been coached by Mangini last year.

Why not just boil this debate down to the simplest of terms.

I know hindsight is 20/20 etc etc BUT.

btw....

Knowing what you know now about VG,

If given the chance, would you or would you not draft VG at #6 again.

Lets cut the bull and see what the VG blowers have to say.

No explanations or long winded speaches please just......

YES OR NO

Knowing what was picked behind him? YES!!!

Because there is no one else we could have realistically taken at that spot who is doing anything either.

[Klecko73isGod]

I think they used Smith as a "LB" on some of the sets. Especially at the end when he was shadowing Johnson.

Yeah, Ryan deploys some of the craziest looking schemes I've ever seen and they all work.

Its a bizarre defense but it's not gimmicky. There is definitely a method to the madness.

The "mad scientist" nickname the Ravens D gave Ryan makes perfect sense after watching three games.

[Aten]

Knowing what you know now about VG,

If given the chance, would you or would you not draft VG at #6 again.

Lets cut the bull and see what the VG blowers have to say.

No explanations or long winded speaches please just......

YES OR NO

Yes.

[Obrien2Toon]

I get it now. Gholston was a great pick and is still a super athlete who's only problem was having been coached by Mangini last year.

Why not just boil this debate down to the simplest of terms.

I know hindsight is 20/20 etc etc BUT.

btw....

Knowing what you know now about VG,

If given the chance, would you or would you not draft VG at #6 again.

Lets cut the bull and see what the VG blowers have to say.

No explanations or long winded speaches please just......

YES OR NO

NO. Should have taken Leodis even with his week 1 blunder.

Gholston stinks. Some people are just too much of homers to see it.

They'll realize it when he is released after his 3rd season.

Maybe even after we don't see him on the field after Pace returns.

And Westerman is the better player now and will have the better career. My guess the only reason why Gholston is playing over him now, is Rex is taking a look to see what he really has in Gholston. And that Westerman still isn't comfortable in coverages yet.

[dbatesman]

I don't know how you can pretend to have any idea how to assess Gholston's play if you don't even understand the position he's playing. He's rotating with Ellis as the two-way end in Ryan's system. This is the position that Trevor Pryce plays in Baltimore, which does not exist in a typical 3-4 like the one Mangini runs or the one described in the primer you read that made you into an expert on these things. When he's on the strong side, his responsibility is initially to take on the two blockers in front of them. If one of them gets off, his job is to shed the other guy in the direction the first had vacated. If this is the direction of the play, it's his to make; if not he either pursues or plays backside contain, presumably generally the latter when Chris Johnson is on the field. In this case, though, as has been explained to you enough times that you ought to have a pretty clear idea what happened without having watched it, neither blocker got off, so it was the linebackers' job to make the play. It isn't generally contemplated that the end is going to be in a position to do it in that case. It's one thing to beat a double-team going upfield, but just as a simple matter of physics it's something else altogether when the play is behind you. How are you supposed to disengage, turn around and run in the same direction that you're already being driven by the two behemoths bearing down on you? You just get knocked over. You're right that Gholston is undersized for the role, but that's because until a couple of weeks ago they were still trying to make him a rush linebacker and his offseason program was designed accordingly. They'll bulk him up for next year.

[Smashmouth]

WOW I was so caught up in the other gholston thread I never bothered to look at the stupidity in this one.

Aten you have no ****ing idea what your talking about. None what so ever. And debatesman Im shocked you think that trash he posted is owning me I think its rather hystericle.

[RutgersJetFan]

Aten you have no ****ing idea what your talking about. None what so ever.

Aaaaaaand a new sig was born.

[Smashmouth]

Aaaaaaand a new sig was born.

hehe

[Mistalava]

It was a nice play by Gholston I said that yesterday. But Johnson was slowed down because he was moving around Jets defenders who were missing tackles. I just don't want it to sound like Gholston had a foot race with Johnson and won, that isn't what happened.

Not to mention that Gohlston was blocked at least 10 yards down the field... have to give the OL an assist on that run-down and tackle.

[dbatesman]

WOW I was so caught up in the other gholston thread I never bothered to look at the stupidity in this one.

Aten you have no ****ing idea what your talking about. None what so ever. And debatesman Im shocked you think that trash he posted is owning me I think its rather hystericle.

Hystericle indeed, my friend. Hystericle indeed.

[bitonti]

NO. Should have taken Leodis even with his week 1 blunder.

and his broken leg? He doesn't even play real defense. He's a kick returner.

the grass is not always greener.