Redskins Cheerleader Disabled after Flu shot.

[ZachEY]

I think Villain makes a good case for there being nothing to prove that it's a hoax yet. I don't see anything that proves that it isn't a hoax either though. I'd be interested in knowing if she's actually paying for all these doctors.

Also...

Stroke gives woman British accent

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3235934.stm

Foreign Accent Syndrome

I'm not saying it's legit, I haven't done any research; but there have been cases...

LOL, you seem like a reasonable person, even if she has one of these 60 documented cases of all time, what's the explanation for her being seen walking normally, then when the cameras are on her, start walking sideways.

As far as a strong case, its impossible to prove a negative, especially from far away, all you can do is make your most educated guess, and that leads to the fact that she's mentally ill at best and a complete liar at worst. Much like her original diagnosis states.

[ZachEY]

Oh, its not "logical" to say that the stressor was the flu shot so I cant actually make the argument. Therefore, you can SAY that I cant make the argument which is "clearly" the case why I agree to disagree??? What facts or logic are YOU standing on that makes the statement you just made valid? Because I surely dont remember you providing proof that the flu shot wasnt the catalyst. I dont remember you providing proof that it was a hoax either. But simple logic cant make the argument that eveything started once the shot was given huh? Seriously EY, shut up.

Well, it's possible that the flu shot was the stressor, but hundreds of years of medical history says that your wrong. Those are the facts and logic that I stand by. Hundreds of years of medical history says that her symptoms are not dystonia, hundreds of years of medical history says dystonia can't be cured, hundreds of years of medical history that says patients fake illness all the time for a host of reasons.

The numbers alone say that it's more likely she has munchausen's (mental disorder causing you to fake it) then being diagnosed initially with 'weakness' (as per the medical report but it actually being dystonia or something similar, from a flu shot, which gets cured, by a doctors who's practice includes injecting patients with urine (truth), develops the ability to walk normal and operate a motor vehicle when she doesn't know anyone is watching, but quickly can't walk normally with a reporter asking her questions and speak with a foreign accent.

Now, be honest, which is more likely?

Now you're just acting up. This is why I agreed to disagree, because you make empty statements like this, and when its not statements like this then its paranoid delusion remarks, if its not that then its going around the fact that I've asked you atleast 4 times to PROVE IT if you're saying its not true...or just say its your opinion.

No, I'm not acting up, you just live on another planet than the rest of us. Again, nothing can be proven in any of these cases, we just have to use the evidence we can to make educated guesses. The evidence we have in this case is clear though.

Even when you capitalize the word PROVE, it doesn't mean you've done it.

Seriously, this "know it all" attitude isnt working for you. You have an opinion, thats it. Your opinion is that she's lying. You cant prove it, which makes it an opinion. Until you can make your opinion a fact then this story stands, which is the logical way to go with it.

Again, I agree to disagree.

And trust me, you didnt catch irony in the picture.

I don't know it all, but when it comes to stuff like this, I know a lot more than you. My opinion is backed by science and precedent, yours is not.

[RutgersJetFan]

Sigh...

[villain_the_foe]

Well, it's possible that the flu shot was the stressor, but hundreds of years of medical history says that your wrong. Those are the facts and logic that I stand by. Hundreds of years of medical history says that her symptoms are not dystonia, hundreds of years of medical history says dystonia can't be cured, hundreds of years of medical history that says patients fake illness all the time for a host of reasons.

Hundreds of years? I didnt even know we were giving H1N1 shots for hundreds of years. I didnt even know that dystonia was around for hundreds of years. I could have sworn that dystonia was discovered in 1997. Shyte, thats not even two decades and you're saying hundreds of years??? lol. You see, your logic is flawed, just like the rest of the majority lol. I mean, this isnt even logic, this is borderline stupidity. I guess that must be my delusions playing tricks on me. To help you though, Neurology in respects to modern science began in the 17th century, however, your logic is off by almost 400 years lol. (Damn, where's a palm face when you need one! lol)

The numbers alone say that it's more likely she has munchausen's (mental disorder causing you to fake it) then being diagnosed initially with 'weakness' (as per the medical report but it actually being dystonia or something similar, from a flu shot, which gets cured, by a doctors who's practice includes injecting patients with urine (truth), develops the ability to walk normal and operate a motor vehicle when she doesn't know anyone is watching, but quickly can't walk normally with a reporter asking her questions and speak with a foreign accent.

What numbers, from where, and based on what examination? It surely cant be desiree you're talking about. What poor logic. Do you mean to tell me that I can go to the hospital, tell the doctor that I have a stomach ache and he can simply tell me that "based on the numbers" I probably ate too much, then give me an antacid, pat me on the back and kick me out of the ER without examining based on the numbers? Poor poor logic EY, yeah,...im the delusional one.

Now, be honest, which is more likely?

I dont play the "more likely" games. Im actually serious with my logic. You have an opinion, just SAY you do and I can accept it instead of you putting up this "know it all" front and you having me destroy it with my paranoid logic that has a base.

No, I'm not acting up, you just live on another planet than the rest of us. Again, nothing can be proven in any of these cases, we just have to use the evidence we can to make educated guesses. The evidence we have in this case is clear though.

No, I've set my foundation through logic...and showed you what my foundation was. Im alot closer than you. You're using information from a doctor who never seen the girl face to face and a edited video recording from a television show. Its not that I live on another planet that the rest of you. Its that im showing you that you have simply an opinion and nothing else. I dont need to be from another planet to do that. Also, what evidence are you talking about that is so "clear"? If so could you finally use it to prove a valid point instead of your opinions for the past 3 days?

Even when you capitalize the word PROVE, it doesn't mean you've done it.

Just because you name 20 disorders that I dont know doesnt mean that you are a doctor. Just because you have an opinion doesnt make it fact. Just because the doctor went to Yale U doesnt make it morally and medically ethical to throw diagnosis under the bus with his diagnosis from a laptop and YOU RUN WITH IT. Just because she walked funny doesnt mean she's a liar. Just because a reporter alluded to a hoax doesnt make it a hoax. Just because she allowed a camera into her treatment doesnt make it a hoax. Just because you think you know it all doesnt mean you know it all. Just because you say im a paranoid delusionist doesnt make me a paranoid delusionist. Just because I used logic and you didnt doesnt mean that you can trash my logic as if I didnt have any. Just because you think something's ironic doesnt mean that you see the irony in it. Just because you proved nothing doesnt mean that I didnt prove anything.

I don't know it all, but when it comes to stuff like this, I know a lot more than you. My opinion is backed by science and precedent, yours is not.

You obviously know more than me. I had no clue that H1N1 Vaccine shots as well as dystonia went all the way back to the 17th century.

Okay seriously, This is simple: Stop telling me, show me. Show it to me in a way that would be relevant to this situation, just like I showed you the flu shot statements just to show you that I dont use poor logic like some people on this site, or have opinions and say its backed up by science when the science is a doctor making a diagnosis from basically the internet.

Please, dont do ANYTHING ELSE. Just show me......please. PRETTY PLEASE....show me.

[Jetsfan80]

I don't know why I keep clicking on this thread. It gives me a painful headache every time.

Villain, if you don't think EY has "shown you" that you are dead wrong on this already, there is no hope for you. Just hunker down in your bomb shelter until the monsters and robots take over.

[ZachEY]

I guess we lost the idea of concise, huh?

Hundreds of years? I didnt even know we were giving H1N1 shots for hundreds of years. I didnt even know that dystonia was around for hundreds of years. I could have sworn that dystonia was discovered in 1997. Shyte, thats not even two decades and you're saying hundreds of years??? lol. You see, your logic is flawed, just like the rest of the majority lol. I mean, this isnt even logic, this is borderline stupidity. I guess that must be my delusions playing tricks on me. To help you though, Neurology in respects to modern science began in the 17th century, however, your logic is off by almost 400 years lol. (Damn, where's a palm face when you need one! lol)

So now we're only focusing on H1N1 vaccines. Ok, if that were the case, why is this girl sick, when no one from that same exact batch of vaccines sick? This was documented. Also, dystonia was not discovered in 1997, the gene responsible was. Much like psychological and neurological are not the same.

Beyond that, you didn't actually say anything above.

What numbers, from where, and based on what examination? It surely cant be desiree you're talking about. What poor logic. Do you mean to tell me that I can go to the hospital, tell the doctor that I have a stomach ache and he can simply tell me that "based on the numbers" I probably ate too much, then give me an antacid, pat me on the back and kick me out of the ER without examining based on the numbers? Poor poor logic EY, yeah,...im the delusional one.

The numbers of dystonia patients with a correlation (not a proven causation, another difference you need to look up) to the flu shot vs. the number of patients faking it be that through psychological disorder, or just plain hoaxing. The numbers are 5 in a billion that a correlation can be made between dystonia and flu shots. On the other hand, estimates are that 1% of the patients doctors seen in the ER are faking their symptoms. That equates to 5 out of 500, as opposed to 5 out of a billion.

I dont play the "more likely" games. Im actually serious with my logic. You have an opinion, just SAY you do and I can accept it instead of you putting up this "know it all" front and you having me destroy it with my paranoid logic that has a base.

Yes, we both have opinions, mine is based on evidence, yours is based on nothing but the word of this girl.

No, I've set my foundation through logic...and showed you what my foundation was. Im alot closer than you. You're using information from a doctor who never seen the girl face to face and a edited video recording from a television show. Its not that I live on another planet that the rest of you. Its that im showing you that you have simply an opinion and nothing else. I dont need to be from another planet to do that. Also, what evidence are you talking about that is so "clear"? If so could you finally use it to prove a valid point instead of your opinions for the past 3 days?

I've referenced that doctor once, how about when I referenced her initial diagnosis which was 'weakness', how about when I talked about the numbers, how about when I brought up possible alternatives. All you've done is relied on her word, and the work of a doctor who injects his patients with urine.

Again, yes, it is an opinion, but not all opinions are created equal, and that's the crux of the argument. If I were to say, in my opinion, tomorrow, jesus is going to come back, and he's going to give you all cotton candy and puppies, well, that's an opinion. A better one would be that Jesus isn't going to come back tomorrow.

Just because you name 20 disorders that I dont know doesnt mean that you are a doctor. Just because you have an opinion doesnt make it fact. Just because the doctor went to Yale U doesnt make it morally and medically ethical to throw diagnosis under the bus with his diagnosis from a laptop and YOU RUN WITH IT. Just because she walked funny doesnt mean she's a liar. Just because a reporter alluded to a hoax doesnt make it a hoax. Just because she allowed a camera into her treatment doesnt make it a hoax. Just because you think you know it all doesnt mean you know it all. Just because you say im a paranoid delusionist doesnt make me a paranoid delusionist. Just because I used logic and you didnt doesnt mean that you can trash my logic as if I didnt have any. Just because you think something's ironic doesnt mean that you see the irony in it. Just because you proved nothing doesnt mean that I didnt prove anything.

I never claimed to be a doctor, so everything you say here is irrelevant.

Let me ask you this about the Yale Doctor, is he more qualified than either of us to make a diagnosis from his laptop? I'd say yes. Let me ask you something else, what would his motivation be to discredit this girl? What does he stand to gain?

You keep saying you've used logic, but you've failed to demonstrate it, all you've done is taken this girl at her word, when a mountain of evidence shows she's probably full of it.

You obviously know more than me. I had no clue that H1N1 Vaccine shots as well as dystonia went all the way back to the 17th century.

Irrelevant because I never said any of this.

Okay seriously, This is simple: Stop telling me, show me. Show it to me in a way that would be relevant to this situation, just like I showed you the flu shot statements just to show you that I dont use poor logic like some people on this site, or have opinions and say its backed up by science when the science is a doctor making a diagnosis from basically the internet.

Please, dont do ANYTHING ELSE. Just show me......please. PRETTY PLEASE....show me.

I've shown you with the last page of posts, you've had no interest in seeing. I've shown you the video or her walking naturally then not... I've shown you facts about dystonia... I've shown you facts about flu shots... I've shown you statistics... I've shown you other, more probable diagnoses... I can't show you anymore if you don't want to see it.

Listen, this has been fun, but you clearly have no interest in learning or opening your mind to alternative, more logical ideas, tell you what, the next box of Reynolds Wrap is on me.

[Blackout]

Reason #30 I do not get the flu shot......................and the powers to be want my 5 year old to get the whipped up quick swine flu shot? Pass.

stupid government

[johnny green balls]

I can see that your IQ has been affected by the vaccines lol.

it wasn't the vaccines, it was reading your posts.

[RutgersJetFan]

it wasn't the vaccines, it was reading your posts.

/thread.

[villain_the_foe]

I guess we lost the idea of concise, huh?

Yea, I can do what I like until you "prove" me wrong:headbang:

So now we're only focusing on H1N1 vaccines. Ok, if that were the case, why is this girl sick, when no one from that same exact batch of vaccines sick? This was documented. Also, dystonia was not discovered in 1997, the gene responsible was. Much like psychological and neurological are not the same.

Im actually focusing on the subject at hand, you continue to want to take it to every place but the actual place. When was dystonia discovered. The gene responsibile was in fact discovered in 97, but you didnt show a date that showed that dystonia has been around for "hundreds of years". When was it first discovered?

Beyond that, you didn't actually say anything above.

Oh, my bad, that means that im wrong with my logic for a shot and a examination that was actually given.

The numbers of dystonia patients with a correlation (not a proven causation, another difference you need to look up) to the flu shot vs. the number of patients faking it be that through psychological disorder, or just plain hoaxing. The numbers are 5 in a billion that a correlation can be made between dystonia and flu shots. On the other hand, estimates are that 1% of the patients doctors seen in the ER are faking their symptoms. That equates to 5 out of 500, as opposed to 5 out of a billion.

EY, THE NUMBERS DONT PROVE THAT "ONE WOMEN" IS FAKING IT. PROVE THAT DESIREE IS FAKING IT. PROVE THAT! I dont care about all that other shyte. Stop acting smart and actually be smart by proving something.

Yes, we both have opinions, mine is based on evidence, yours is based on nothing but the word of this girl.

Dude, kill yourself. I just showed you who my logic on the shot being the stressor is relevant based on the vaccine inserts (not the girl). I also told you that my logic in regards to her having a disorder is based on alittle less than 60 doctors who seen this women before she was diagnosed with dystonia (not the girl). Your evidence is general EY, get a grip. Your evidence doesnt say "See, we just caught her lying". It says that its extremely rare. Your other evidence is a Yale doc with no examination. Really, jump out the closest window.

I've referenced that doctor once, how about when I referenced her initial diagnosis which was 'weakness', how about when I talked about the numbers, how about when I brought up possible alternatives. All you've done is relied on her word, and the work of a doctor who injects his patients with urine.

Her dianosis was dystonia, not weakness. Those numbers dont apply to a girl that didnt diagnose herself, doctors did (logic should kick in right there). Alternatives without examination is bad diagnosis. I didnt rely on one of her words, I relied on a diagnosis given. You've relied on general approaches and doctors that didnt examine her...and because of that, I can discredit you.

Again, yes, it is an opinion, but not all opinions are created equal, and that's the crux of the argument. If I were to say, in my opinion, tomorrow, jesus is going to come back, and he's going to give you all cotton candy and puppies, well, that's an opinion. A better one would be that Jesus isn't going to come back tomorrow.

You're right. Your opinion is weak because its based on other peoples opinion and general numbers that dont apply to her because she was dianosed already.

I never claimed to be a doctor, so everything you say here is irrelevant.

You never claimed the position, but you act like you are....thats the irrelevant part.

Let me ask you this about the Yale Doctor, is he more qualified than either of us to make a diagnosis from his laptop? I'd say yes. Let me ask you something else, what would his motivation be to discredit this girl? What does he stand to gain?

No EY,....no! There's medical code of ethics. If you make a diagnosis, you have to have done some diagnostic procedures. He didnt, at all. So what he did was give a false diagnosis given that there was no procedures done. Why dont you get that? He made it worse by trashing ther doctors diagnosis who actually done these procedures. I know you're not this dumb. My "opinion" of his motivation is not the point here, I wont stray away from logic to get into battle of opinion with you. Trust me, we NEVER agree so I know better than to go there. I'll stick with the fact that he's a doctor that trashes diagnosis without doing his own. I'll have a leg up there.

You keep saying you've used logic, but you've failed to demonstrate it, all you've done is taken this girl at her word, when a mountain of evidence shows she's probably full of it.

Again, I've answered this already. You're a beavis.

I've shown you with the last page of posts, you've had no interest in seeing. I've shown you the video or her walking naturally then not... I've shown you facts about dystonia... I've shown you facts about flu shots... I've shown you statistics... I've shown you other, more probable diagnoses... I can't show you anymore if you don't want to see it.

You shown me everything that you felt. I've told you that I agree with the close to 60 doctors that seen her and not you.

Listen, this has been fun, but you clearly have no interest in learning or opening your mind to alternative, more logical ideas, tell you what, the next box of Reynolds Wrap is on me.

A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to do a harmful or unlawful act. I never said that there was a conspiracy. Yet again you think you know everything, but you just look naive to me when you conclude with stupidity.

Atleast you have more balls then some of the other people who just jump in the room just to take a side but also dont provide a thing. They dont even get a response, atleast I can respect you because you try. Until next time EY. It was fun!

[124]

Plain and simple, this bitch is a fraud.

[johnny green balls]

villain, would you get vaccines for your kid? just some of the shots? who decides which ones? you based on internet research or do you trust your doctor?

[ZachEY]

I've already discussed the 'prove it' nonsense you keep spewing, so from here, I'll leave you with this:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1152

Since you don't care what another neurologist thinks, even though he explains how nothing this woman exhibits is consistent with dystonia how about this gem:

"Because of the concern of individuals with dystonia as to whether or not to get a flu shot because of this reported case, we have sought the opinion of dystonia experts on this case. Based on the footage that has been shared with the public, it is their unanimous consensus that this case does not appear to be dystonia."

Now, who could that quote be from that it might matter to you? How about these folks:

The Dystonia Medical Research Foundation

http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/pages/dystonia___flu_vaccine/569.php

People with Dystonia, who should be most sympathetic to her cause, call her a liar. How about that?

It's also interesting to note that Generation Rescue, the leaders of the anti-vax nutbags, created a website for her, desireejennings.com, and basically made her their poster child. Now, the site is gone, and they've distanced themselves from her. Why? Seems the most obvious reason is they don't believe her either.

[ZachEY]

villain, would you get vaccines for your kid? just some of the shots? who decides which ones? you based on internet research or do you trust your doctor?

I was going to get there at some point.

If you avoid those vaccinations, you basically have to home school your child.

[Sharrow]

LOL, you seem like a reasonable person, even if she has one of these 60 documented cases of all time, what's the explanation for her being seen walking normally, then when the cameras are on her, start walking sideways.

As far as a strong case, its impossible to prove a negative, especially from far away, all you can do is make your most educated guess, and that leads to the fact that she's mentally ill at best and a complete liar at worst. Much like her original diagnosis states.

Unless they have video of her walking normally in a confined space, I don't think it necessarily proves anything. It's a different situation than walking in a wide open space like they showed her doing normally. If they've got her walking between cars to her's normally, then it's proof. I've had to squeeze in sideways before when someone parked too close to my car, granted she had enough room to walk normally.

I think you guys are getting too deep. There is either something legitimately wrong with her, or it's a hoax. Anything that doesn't support or contradict either of those things is irrelevant, imo, including whatever her problem actually is if there is one. The other thing is whether or not the problems were actually caused by the vaccine. The FAS could be a result of the treatments she received from the unconventional doctor she was seeing.

That said, I don't think anything here can be solved on a message board, tbh. You'd have to go investigate her. Which I'm sure is being done, very thoroughly, if an insurance company is paying for all these "controversial" treatments.

[JohnnyHector]

you basically have to home school your child.

Alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth but no toothbrush.

[RutgersJetFan]

Alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth but no toothbrush.

Yeah, sure it's all fun and games and Adam Sandler quotes, but can you PROVE that alligators don't use toothbrushes?

[124]

Alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth but no toothbrush.

[villain_the_foe]

I've already discussed the 'prove it' nonsense you keep spewing, so from here, I'll leave you with this:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1152

Since you don't care what another neurologist thinks, even though he explains how nothing this woman exhibits is consistent with dystonia how about this gem:

"Because of the concern of individuals with dystonia as to whether or not to get a flu shot because of this reported case, we have sought the opinion of dystonia experts on this case. Based on the footage that has been shared with the public, it is their unanimous consensus that this case does not appear to be dystonia."

Now, who could that quote be from that it might matter to you? How about these folks:

The Dystonia Medical Research Foundation

http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/pages/dystonia___flu_vaccine/569.php

People with Dystonia, who should be most sympathetic to her cause, call her a liar. How about that?

It's also interesting to note that Generation Rescue, the leaders of the anti-vax nutbags, created a website for her, desireejennings.com, and basically made her their poster child. Now, the site is gone, and they've distanced themselves from her. Why? Seems the most obvious reason is they don't believe her either.

Did Robert E. Bartholomew examine Desiree?

I'll do this, I'll role your way. Nothing that Desiree has shown is consistent with Dystonia. And this is just using "logic", if you're a doctor and you see that something isnt consistent shouldnt you examine to see if its something else? This is what doctors do. My only problem with your arguement is that your arguements are based on opinion. It may not be dystonia (ive said this many times). It could certainly be a disorder that wasnt diagnosed. However, to call it a hoax is speculation at that absolute very best.

I have a problem with speculation because that means that something is incomplete. EY, you're a very competent person, this is why I like to have these type of conversations with you. I wont ask because I know you know what speculation is, but more importantly, how to recognize it. The reason why I've continue to state that your arguement is opinion is because its based on speculation.

I'll go even further your way. I could be absolutely wrong and Desiree could be hoaxing the entire world unsuccessfully, besides the few people like myself who are not looking solely at her actions, but from confirmations, be it right or not right from doctors who made an actual analysis (thats my premise). You asked me once do I care about what a doctor thinks. Let me clearly answer. "It depends". If a doctor makes speculatory comment I'll take it with a grain of salt, understanding that there hasnt been an actual investigation I'll respect the fact that he/she is experienced in the field, but I cannot and will not take it as something that has been confirmed factual because it hasnt.

Now, In a situation where a doctor has investigated a situation and made a diagnosis, I will take their comment as a confirmation, because they've examined the situation. This however doesnt mean that they're right 100% of the time, hence a misdiagnosis. This happens, one of the reasons why we have specialist in various fields.

Furthermore, a specialist could state that by viewing a video that there's nothing that was seen to be consistent with for example dystonia. However, this specialist by saying that could only conclude that this is through observation and not examination....so because of this, the specialist cannot say that it is a "hoax" given two reasons, #1. He/she isnt an expert medical witness. In order for that to be there had to have been an examination by this specialist. If he/she gave an examination then the speculation would then be called a diagnosis....which it cant. Most importantly, you can confirm that there was a misdiagnosis by a specialist, but this specialist cannot state that it was a hoax because they're not a specialist in every area of disorders to make that vast statement. They could only speculate what it could be and then send her to a specialist in that field. The reason why THAT isnt happening is because these specialist that are making these statements cannot state that it could possibly be something else given lack of an exam, leaving the situation incomplete, therefore an opinion/speculation.

I understand your feeling and your point of view EY...as well as others on this site. However, you're simply using speculation and not confirmed diagnosis, even if it was a misdiagnosis. The reason being is that this Robert E. Bartholomew character could be absoutely right, but him being correct doesnt satisfy the your opinion of it being a hoax, only that it may have been a misdiagnosis which lands on the doctors who treated her. This is the part that you are not agreeing with or I should say "accepting".

Speculation, even by a specialist can only give speculation (or doubt) to the diagnosis itself, not the person becuase the person could still have a disorder that was bought about by the shot. This speculation would only lead to the possibility of a misdiagnosis, nothing more.

Do you agree?

[villain_the_foe]

villain, would you get vaccines for your kid? just some of the shots? who decides which ones? you based on internet research or do you trust your doctor?

It depends. If I feel that a particular vaccination is dangerous I wont give my child the shot. My child is my responsibility and not the doctors, and so is yours. Some vaccines are not a problem. But when you're saying every year that we need to take a flu shot laced with things that we personally dont understand or when you give a shot to a 1 day old child with toxins that can possibly compromise an under developed immune system I simply have a problem with that. So I dig, and try to learn. What happens is when I come across something it looks like im being paranoid. Na, im just understanding things that I didnt understand yesterday....thats all.

I dont want to sound like doctors are the "evil men". they're not. Its not like they "make" these vaccines, however they administer...so this is bigger than trusting a doctor, you're also saying that you're trusting a company that makes profit off of these vaccines. Doctors are simply the "dealer". I take this very seriously. The thing is, social norms have been so embedded in society that when you take these type of responsibilities you're looked at as a bit paranoid, which is understandable. I'll be whatever I need to be to make sure that my children are healthy and well educated to the absolute BEST of my ability.

How many parents do you know take these measures? If we had more parents like this then this issue really wouldnt be one. I believe that you'd do the same thing for yourself and your child....so I wouldnt even question it.

[ZachEY]

Do you agree?

Yes, it's speculation, but it's speculation based on a lot of material.

Lets look at a simple example.

I look at your picture below, and I see a black dude. I've had enough experience to look at that picture and know what a black dude looks like. Much like a neurologist with all of his training has enough experience to look at a video and know what dystonia looks like.

Now, it's possible that your photo is photoshopped, it's possible that there is some awkward lighting, it's possible that you are dark skinned hispanic, it's possible that you have some skin disorder, but at this point, with the information I have, I'm confident enough to go with black and not look back.

That's why I believe these doctors, they stand nothing to gain, and they've seen dystonia many times. Then, you add in the statistical likelihood of all of these events unfolding the way they did

She may very well not be faking it intentionally, munchausesns is not a choice, but a mental health disorder, but I just don't see any way to accept that anyone can accept the following train of events:

1. She has a disorder, that she blames on a flu shot, which has never been proven to cause this disorder.

2. The symptoms of the disorder she's claiming are not quite consistent with the disorder she's got. Ie, her movements, the fact that she can run, the fact that she can walk backwards. So much so that the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation does not accept her.

3. A disorder, which has no known cure, was cured rapidly by oxygen chamber by a doctor who's under investigation for injecting his patients with urine.

4. Then, she is seen walking normally, and even driving a car (something a person with a real neurological disorder would do as a death wish, they don't let many epileptics drive, are they going to let her?) and leading a regular life until confronted by media, when she starts walking sideways and talking with a foreign accent.

5. The antivax groups have now distanced themselves from her.

I look at all of that, and the best I can only think that she's faking it. I could give you 3 or 4 reasons why, and they all make sense, but at the end of the day, I'm looking at the picture, and I'm seeing a black dude.

[ZachEY]

It depends. If I feel that a particular vaccination is dangerous I wont give my child the shot. My child is my responsibility and not the doctors, and so is yours. Some vaccines are not a problem. But when you're saying every year that we need to take a flu shot laced with things that we personally dont understand or when you give a shot to a 1 day old child with toxins that can possibly compromise an under developed immune system I simply have a problem with that. So I dig, and try to learn. What happens is when I come across something it looks like im being paranoid. Na, im just understanding things that I didnt understand yesterday....thats all.

I dont want to sound like doctors are the "evil men". they're not. Its not like they "make" these vaccines, however they administer...so this is bigger than trusting a doctor, you're also saying that you're trusting a company that makes profit off of these vaccines. Doctors are simply the "dealer". I take this very seriously. The thing is, social norms have been so embedded in society that when you take these type of responsibilities you're looked at as a bit paranoid, which is understandable. I'll be whatever I need to be to make sure that my children are healthy and well educated to the absolute BEST of my ability.

How many parents do you know take these measures? If we had more parents like this then this issue really wouldnt be one. I believe that you'd do the same thing for yourself and your child....so I wouldnt even question it.

Villian, if you want to do the best for you child, like most do, how do you account for the fact that more deaths and complications are linked to the flu than to the flu shot?

Life is not without its risks, every time you get in a car, you're taking a significantly larger risk than you are in getting a flu shot. Look at the numbers. How do you decide what's worth the risk?

[johnny green balls]

It depends. If I feel that a particular vaccination is dangerous I wont give my child the shot. My child is my responsibility and not the doctors, and so is yours. Some vaccines are not a problem. But when you're saying every year that we need to take a flu shot laced with things that we personally dont understand or when you give a shot to a 1 day old child with toxins that can possibly compromise an under developed immune system I simply have a problem with that. So I dig, and try to learn. What happens is when I come across something it looks like im being paranoid. Na, im just understanding things that I didnt understand yesterday....thats all.

I dont want to sound like doctors are the "evil men". they're not. Its not like they "make" these vaccines, however they administer...so this is bigger than trusting a doctor, you're also saying that you're trusting a company that makes profit off of these vaccines. Doctors are simply the "dealer". I take this very seriously. The thing is, social norms have been so embedded in society that when you take these type of responsibilities you're looked at as a bit paranoid, which is understandable. I'll be whatever I need to be to make sure that my children are healthy and well educated to the absolute BEST of my ability.

How many parents do you know take these measures? If we had more parents like this then this issue really wouldnt be one. I believe that you'd do the same thing for yourself and your child....so I wouldnt even question it.

that pretty sad bro. you would risk your kid's health on internet research. listen to yourself.

the only reason kids can do alright without vaccines is because everyone else has them. it's called free riding. so even if your kid never gets polio he is still benefiting from the vaccine because everyone else is immune and there is no one to carry to disease for him to get it.

let me also add that even beyond preventing disease, vaccines are good for people - it's an excellent way to give your immune system some training before it is confronted by a real pathogen. this is the same phenomenon as infants being exposed to anti bodies through their mother's breast milk (boosts immune system) and why it is bad to over sterilize a baby's environment with anti-bacterial products (prevents their immune system from encountering nominal threats that are a good warmup when they go out into the world and are confronted by really nasty bugs)

[Verde]

Wow, y'all are putting a lot of time and effort into this roundabout.

Remind me to NEVER debate any of you!

[Thor99]

My medical opinion-

She's a nutbag. /thread

[villain_the_foe]

Yes, it's speculation.

Thats the end of it right there. Everything else is irrelevant. Its speculation.

[villain_the_foe]

Villian, if you want to do the best for you child, like most do, how do you account for the fact that more deaths and complications are linked to the flu than to the flu shot?

Life is not without its risks, every time you get in a car, you're taking a significantly larger risk than you are in getting a flu shot. Look at the numbers. How do you decide what's worth the risk?

I guess the same way you account for it. Difference is, I would handle my child my way you would handle your child your way. No problem with that. As for a car and "risk", thats stupid to me. I will take a car because I have a right to travel, things do happen. However I will not ok a shot laced with impurities and synthetics simply because of my car outside or my child running a cough for a week. Again, thats stupid to me to compromise an immune system like that.

As of how I decide whats worth the risk....I have a brain EY, I use it, and common sense will take you a long way. I dont mold my life around other peoples work like statistics and ratios...im not a sheep. I try things, find out whats true and not true based on my experiences....not someone elses. I guess this is why its so easy for me to take much of the negative criticism of what some people think about my approach to life. Most of these people can tell you everything you need to do and not do but their own life is a mess. Thats funny to me actually. I guess its not meant for you or anyone else to understand because its not your approach, its mine. Difference is, im okay with you trying it your way the best way you know how, given that my way is such an alternative Im hit with criticism instead of embraced with the same respect that I give (typical). I understood that this would happen going in.

[villain_the_foe]

that pretty sad bro. you would risk your kid's health on internet research. listen to yourself.

the only reason kids can do alright without vaccines is because everyone else has them. it's called free riding. so even if your kid never gets polio he is still benefiting from the vaccine because everyone else is immune and there is no one to carry to disease for him to get it.

let me also add that even beyond preventing disease, vaccines are good for people - it's an excellent way to give your immune system some training before it is confronted by a real pathogen. this is the same phenomenon as infants being exposed to anti bodies through their mother's breast milk (boosts immune system) and why it is bad to over sterilize a baby's environment with anti-bacterial products (prevents their immune system from encountering nominal threats that are a good warmup when they go out into the world and are confronted by really nasty bugs)

What you meant to say was. "Thats cool of you bro. Doing the best for your child based on research that you did. Taking the time out to make sure, unlike most parents who simply line up and dont ask questions. They just take the white coat and the DR in front of the person's name as proof enough. I think thats bold of you Villain and I wish everyone took as much responsibility." Thank you for the compliment JGB.

Let me ask you a question. Where do you go for your research? Given your crude response I would like to know where you research your vaccine information at so I could be further informed. I mean, at the end of the day this isnt about right or wrong, its about the best for our children right? So please provide me with the places that you go to research your info on vaccinations since its not the internet. Oh, and I never said that my research solely came from the internet, though it is a huge part of it.

Oh, and when you respond to this quote, please dont forget to tell me the places where you get your information so I can check it out. I just need to do the best thing for my future child, and since you dont use internet I'd like to know your method of research. I know a person asking a question and then responding in your fashion has to have research under his belt because you're obviously that responsible.

Oh, and how could you see it as "sad" yet you dont know my research? (Yo EY, this is what I talk about with the majority. They speculate without knowing anything that you've done, and they can tell you that you're "sad" based on absolutely nothing because they have not a CLUE of what you've come across in your research. They just know that you're wrong simply because your view isnt the same as theirs.)

[ZachEY]

I guess the same way you account for it. Difference is, I would handle my child my way you would handle your child your way. No problem with that. As for a car and "risk", thats stupid to me. I will take a car because I have a right to travel, things do happen. However I will not ok a shot laced with impurities and synthetics simply because of my car outside or my child running a cough for a week. Again, thats stupid to me to compromise an immune system like that.

As of how I decide whats worth the risk....I have a brain EY, I use it, and common sense will take you a long way. I dont mold my life around other peoples work like statistics and ratios...im not a sheep. I try things, find out whats true and not true based on my experiences....not someone elses. I guess this is why its so easy for me to take much of the negative criticism of what some people think about my approach to life. Most of these people can tell you everything you need to do and not do but their own life is a mess. Thats funny to me actually. I guess its not meant for you or anyone else to understand because its not your approach, its mine. Difference is, im okay with you trying it your way the best way you know how, given that my way is such an alternative Im hit with criticism instead of embraced with the same respect that I give (typical). I understood that this would happen going in.

But common sense, which you keep harping on, would tell you that you are significantly more likely to die from a shark attack or a car accident or by getting the flu, than by complications from the flu shot. JGB says it, you're going on internet research, which is by no means a reliable source, to make your life decisions. You realize there is no filter on the internet right? Anyone can post anything without consequences and without fact verification.

I don't understand all this mistrust for doctors. They are not perfect, but the reality is, they are highly trained and highly skilled, the Hippocratic oath means something to them. They're not looking to inject your children for pleasure. They're looking to inject your children because of mountain of scientific data says your child is significantly less likely to be harmed with this injection than without it.

As far as where this info is coming from, my life is far from a mess, and the poop guy is pretty much the greatest man in America, just ask him... He'll tell you. You receive criticism because it's one thing to 'not be a sheep' as you say, it's another to look for boogeymen where they don't exist.

[ZachEY]

Thats the end of it right there. Everything else is irrelevant. Its speculation.

I never claimed it was anything but.

But, as I said, not all opinions are created equal.

[villain_the_foe]

But common sense, which you keep harping on, would tell you that you are significantly more likely to die from a shark attack or a car accident or by getting the flu, than by complications from the flu shot. JGB says it, you're going on internet research, which is by no means a reliable source, to make your life decisions. You realize there is no filter on the internet right? Anyone can post anything without consequences and without fact verification.

I don't understand all this mistrust for doctors. They are not perfect, but the reality is, they are highly trained and highly skilled, the Hippocratic oath means something to them. They're not looking to inject your children for pleasure. They're looking to inject your children because of mountain of scientific data says your child is significantly less likely to be harmed with this injection than without it.

As far as where this info is coming from, my life is far from a mess, and the poop guy is pretty much the greatest man in America, just ask him... He'll tell you. You receive criticism because it's one thing to 'not be a sheep' as you say, it's another to look for boogeymen where they don't exist.

Typically EY, metioning Shark attacks and car accidents like the way you mentioned different disorders that when you get to the meat of things had alot to do with nothing.

I entertained it the first time, not a second.

[villain_the_foe]

I never claimed it was anything but.

But, as I said, not all opinions are created equal.

I dont care about the equality of an opinion. I've back up my position on what was confirmed through examination, you havent. You need something confirmed by a specialist, either that or for desiree to say that she lied herself. You dont have either.

[ZachEY]

I dont care about the equality of an opinion. I've back up my position on what was confirmed through examination, you havent. You need something confirmed by a specialist, either that or for desiree to say that she lied herself. You dont have either.

It's funny, because you actually haven't backed anything up confirmed by an examination, as I've given you the results of the initial examination, which included a diagnosis of 'weakness'. You've chosen to ignore it.

[ZachEY]

Typically EY, metioning Shark attacks and car accidents like the way you mentioned different disorders that when you get to the meat of things had alot to do with nothing.

I entertained it the first time, not a second.

It has to do with the fact that all of these things are significantly more dangerous than your boogeyman. You've just chosen to chase the windmills you prefer to chase.

[Bergen Jet]

It has to do with the fact that all of these things are significantly more dangerous than your boogeyman. You've just chosen to chase the windmills you prefer to chase.

He is about to walk out of the room backwards speaking in an Australian accent...