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Coples as an OLB? Is Rex desparate or clueless here?


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#1 Barton

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:05 PM

Did Rex scout this guys college tape? He's at his best going against GUARDS & CENTERS as a defensive tackle. Proven fact.

 

He is NOT an edge rusher. He fell in the draft because of his drop in production from his junior year at defensive tackle to his senior year at defensive end.

 

Coples does not have enough quickness/lateral agility to be a consistent all-around 4-3 DE, let alone a 3-4 OLB who needs to drop into coverage. 

 

Could be a horrrrrible move right here.


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#2 LAD_Brooklyn

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

Unrelated to the OP point about his position change. But never have I ever in my experiences participating in nor spectating, have I ever seen a guy run the same 40 yard dance and 20 yard shuttle in a combine event. (4.78)


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#3 Larz

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:31 PM

no offense, but I'll go with rex on this one


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#4 HessStation

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:36 PM

Well... If Rex gets canned and they hire a 43 HC Jets will have one hell of a collection of DTs.
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#5 T0mShane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:49 PM

Because they're young players, you hate to see these guys jerked around, especially if they're being asked to screw with their weights. Shaun Ellis was a double-digit sack guy before Herm started moving him around and asking him to gain weight. Just let Coples line up at DE and Richardson at 3-tech and let them learn. I don't see how asking Coples, at 280 lbs, to stand up and try to beat left tackles around the corner helps him. Similarly, I don't see how asking Richardson to learn the nose helps him. Just let these guys do what they do.

Edited by T0mShane, 10 May 2013 - 05:50 PM.

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#6 HessStation

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:53 PM

Because they're young players, you hate to see these guys jerked around, especially if they're being asked to screw with their weights. Shaun Ellis was a double-digit sack guy before Herm started moving him around and asking him to gain weight. Just let Coples line up at DE and Richardson at 3-tech and let them learn. I don't see how asking Coples, at 280 lbs, to stand up and try to beat left tackles around the corner helps him. Similarly, I don't see how asking Richardson to learn the nose helps him. Just let these guys do what they do.


They're asking Richardson to play a 5T DE not NT, per article
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#7 T0mShane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:57 PM

They're asking Richardson to play a 5T DE not NT, per article


Part of the time. I read that he lined up at NT some today. Seems wasteful. If you have a talented young player, let him line up and go. Why screw around? The Giants didn't screw around with Strahan, Tuck, or JPP, and those dudes were/are dominant.

Edited by T0mShane, 10 May 2013 - 05:57 PM.

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#8 HessStation

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:03 PM

Part of the time. I read that he lined up at NT some today. Seems wasteful. If you have a talented young player, let him line up and go. Why screw around? The Giants didn't screw around with Strahan, Tuck, or JPP, and those dudes were/are dominant.


I like to remain optimistic around this time of year but I can't help but share the same weariness.

But it's not even preseason yet. They're just testing him everywhere for now, which is fine IMO. If he's there W1 getting Drob'esque destroyed my head might explode though.
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#9 BroadwayJoe12

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:42 PM

Part of the time. I read that he lined up at NT some today. Seems wasteful. If you have a talented young player, let him line up and go. Why screw around? The Giants didn't screw around with Strahan, Tuck, or JPP, and those dudes were/are dominant.

 

Just saying NT or 5-tech doesn't really do it justice as we have zero idea how he was being utilized in that role.  It's quite possible, as Rex has done it a number of times throughout the years, that he's aligning in a 30 front, but playing a more wade phillips' style one-gap defense.  He could have Richardson playing nose, but have him stunting or having him shoot the gap, as opposed to playing two-gap and just occupy blockers. 

 

There's another thing that people should look out for and that's Coples lining up wide like an OLB, but with his hand in the dirt, something they did a lot with Suggs.  Additionally, Coples played something like 30 snaps standing up to close out the year last year and recorded a couple QB hurries and a hit I believe.  So he clearly has the ability, but I think people and the media are getting too hung up on labels as they want everyone to fit into one category and that's just not how Rex uses his guys.  I'm gonna have faith until he and the defense gives me a reason not to.


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#10 SenorGato

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:59 PM


Well... If Rex gets canned and they hire a 43 HC Jets will have one hell of a collection of DTs.


If they fire Ryan to hire a guy married to a front in 2014 then lol Jets.

Edited by SenorGato, 10 May 2013 - 07:59 PM.

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#11 RSJ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:04 PM

Because they're young players, you hate to see these guys jerked around, especially if they're being asked to screw with their weights. Shaun Ellis was a double-digit sack guy before Herm started moving him around and asking him to gain weight. Just let Coples line up at DE and Richardson at 3-tech and let them learn. I don't see how asking Coples, at 280 lbs, to stand up and try to beat left tackles around the corner helps him. Similarly, I don't see how asking Richardson to learn the nose helps him. Just let these guys do what they do.

 

I bolded is the important part of this statement. I personally trust Rex until proven otherwise. He is a complete moron when it comes to offense. But he does get guys to play hard for him and he does know how to put defensive players in positions to succeed. In a lot of ways I think this is Rex's coming out party. The defense is going to play the best football of Rex's career this year. 


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#12 Bleedin Green

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

Just saying NT or 5-tech doesn't really do it justice as we have zero idea how he was being utilized in that role.  It's quite possible, as Rex has done it a number of times throughout the years, that he's aligning in a 30 front, but playing a more wade phillips' style one-gap defense.  He could have Richardson playing nose, but have him stunting or having him shoot the gap, as opposed to playing two-gap and just occupy blockers. 

 

There's another thing that people should look out for and that's Coples lining up wide like an OLB, but with his hand in the dirt, something they did a lot with Suggs.  Additionally, Coples played something like 30 snaps standing up to close out the year last year and recorded a couple QB hurries and a hit I believe.  So he clearly has the ability, but I think people and the media are getting too hung up on labels as they want everyone to fit into one category and that's just not how Rex uses his guys.  I'm gonna have faith until he and the defense gives me a reason not to.

 


Very well said.  Rex's defense is anything but traditional and yet so many people are addressing the potential positions of some of these players as if we were still playing Mangini's sh*tty ass defense.  It's just so far off from the reality of what this team does on defense.


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#13 HessStation

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:25 PM


If they fire Ryan to hire a guy married to a front in 2014 then lol Jets.

not sure how that's funny. Just about every team has a primary base front. We're only hoping Rex has some grand, dynamic scheme of multiple fronts that bucks a 60 year trend and sets the world on fire.
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#14 HessStation

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

Just saying NT or 5-tech doesn't really do it justice as we have zero idea how he was being utilized in that role. It's quite possible, as Rex has done it a number of times throughout the years, that he's aligning in a 30 front, but playing a more wade phillips' style one-gap defense. He could have Richardson playing nose, but have him stunting or having him shoot the gap, as opposed to playing two-gap and just occupy blockers.

There's another thing that people should look out for and that's Coples lining up wide like an OLB, but with his hand in the dirt, something they did a lot with Suggs. Additionally, Coples played something like 30 snaps standing up to close out the year last year and recorded a couple QB hurries and a hit I believe. So he clearly has the ability, but I think people and the media are getting too hung up on labels as they want everyone to fit into one category and that's just not how Rex uses his guys. I'm gonna have faith until he and the defense gives me a reason not to.

that is very well said.a lot of times Rex and Phillips D's look a lot alike to me. More of a 5-2 where they like to hide gap responsibilities with different alignments.

I feel like when I saw that look last year you'd see offenses immediately try to attack the middle of the field a lot of times where Harris looked exposed.

Edited by HessStation, 10 May 2013 - 09:36 PM.

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#15 T0mShane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

Really, who cares what Rex wants to do? Rex is still piecing together how to make Ricky Sapp and Vernon Gholston into ballers. He's going to burn a year trying to turn Coples into Bryan Thomas, only to get fired (75% probability?) at the end of the year, at which point he gets to go back to DE. Rex is about as good at developing his draft picks as Herm was. Fun fact: Rex's Jets drafts have produced exactly zero (0) Pro Bowl players. The guy has a fancy scheme that confuses OLs, but he doesn't develop for sh*t.
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#16 BroadwayJoe12

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:26 PM

Really, who cares what Rex wants to do? Rex is still piecing together how to make Ricky Sapp and Vernon Gholston into ballers. He's going to burn a year trying to turn Coples into Bryan Thomas, only to get fired (75% probability?) at the end of the year, at which point he gets to go back to DE. Rex is about as good at developing his draft picks as Herm was. Fun fact: Rex's Jets drafts have produced exactly zero (0) Pro Bowl players. The guy has a fancy scheme that confuses OLs, but he doesn't develop for sh*t.

 

While some of that is true, I think you're selling him a bit short on development, at least here with the jets.  Yes, none of his draft picks have gone to the pro-bowl, something that should have happened last year and almost definitely will happen this year when Wilkerson gets the credit he's due, but I don't think it's fair to criticize him for that and not give him credit for guys like Cro and Landry. He didn't draft them, but Cromartie hadn't made the probowl in 5 years since his rookie season and by all accounts had his best year as a pro this past season, likewise Landry had never made the probowl prior to teaming up with Rex.  I agree, I would definitely like to see more of our own guys who are tenured on the roster make the probowl, but he's not a complete slouch when it comes to developing or at least getting the most out of certain guys.  Hopefully it all changes this year and we get a couple more of our own guys in there.


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#17 Bleedin Green

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:48 PM

Really, who cares what Rex wants to do? Rex is still piecing together how to make Ricky Sapp and Vernon Gholston into ballers. He's going to burn a year trying to turn Coples into Bryan Thomas, only to get fired (75% probability?) at the end of the year, at which point he gets to go back to DE. Rex is about as good at developing his draft picks as Herm was. Fun fact: Rex's Jets drafts have produced exactly zero (0) Pro Bowl players. The guy has a fancy scheme that confuses OLs, but he doesn't develop for sh*t.

 

The fact that this is coming from, of all people, Tanny's greatest enemy is pretty friggin' hilarious.  Curious, does Rex get credit for McKnight being an All-Pro KR?


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#18 T0mShane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:57 PM

While some of that is true, I think you're selling him a bit short on development, at least here with the jets. Yes, none of his draft picks have gone to the pro-bowl, something that should have happened last year and almost definitely will happen this year when Wilkerson gets the credit he's due, but I don't think it's fair to criticize him for that and not give him credit for guys like Cro and Landry. He didn't draft them, but Cromartie hadn't made the probowl in 5 years since his rookie season and by all accounts had his best year as a pro this past season, likewise Landry had never made the probowl prior to teaming up with Rex. I agree, I would definitely like to see more of our own guys who are tenured on the roster make the probowl, but he's not a complete slouch when it comes to developing or at least getting the most out of certain guys. Hopefully it all changes this year and we get a couple more of our own guys in there.



Cro and Landry both washed out of their former organizations and were desperate for new contracts. They came with built-in motivations to play hard and play well, and both were high draft picks. It's cool that Rex created an environment where they flourished, but it's not like he made silk purses out of sow's ears there.
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#19 T0mShane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:58 PM

The fact that this is coming from, of all people, Tanny's greatest enemy is pretty friggin' hilarious. Curious, does Rex get credit for McKnight being an All-Pro KR?



Rex, the Great DL Whisperer, manufacturing a kick returner. Why not? Sure. Go, Rex.
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#20 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:18 PM

Really, who cares what Rex wants to do? Rex is still piecing together how to make Ricky Sapp and Vernon Gholston into ballers. He's going to burn a year trying to turn Coples into Bryan Thomas, only to get fired (75% probability?) at the end of the year, at which point he gets to go back to DE. Rex is about as good at developing his draft picks as Herm was. Fun fact: Rex's Jets drafts have produced exactly zero (0) Pro Bowl players. The guy has a fancy scheme that confuses OLs, but he doesn't develop for sh*t.

 

Your fun fact is loaded and stupid.

 

2009 Jets drafted no defensive players

2010 Jets drafted 1 defensive player (who will never make the pro bowl, like most others drafted by everyone)

2011 Jets drafted 2 defensive players (1 was awesome already in year 2, whether he got silly pro bowl honors or not; the other was a pure 3-4 NT stuck behind one of the NFL's best)

2012 No NFL team drafted a pro bowler on defense.  The only two pro bowl players drafted by anyone were RGIII (2nd pick in the country, who the Jets had no shot of drafting, and a dome kicker)

 

So the way I see it, since it's too early to judge 2012's draftees for the Jets or anyone else, you're looking at exactly 3 players from 2 drafts.  One of them is a stud, 1 of them is not, and 1 of them is getting his first real starting opportunity in 2013.

 

The close of the 2013 season will be a good time to better judge our defensive draft picks - and Rex's development of them - since Rex was named HC here.  Not only to get a better look at 2012's draft class, but a little bit for 2013's also because we took a defensive player in the top 10 and another at #13 and both are expected to start as rookies.


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#21 Bleedin Green

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:27 PM

Rex, the Great DL Whisperer, manufacturing a kick returner. Why not? Sure. Go, Rex.

 

Ah, so then it's really only the DL that count?  Just curious, because you were making quite the emphatic statement about how much it meant that the Jets had no Pro Bowlers drafted during his time here.  Didn't realize the massive sample size we were looking at was two.  Then again, what kind of useless players don't make the Pro Bowl in their first two years / rookie year respectively?

 

Keep in mind, I'm not even saying that Rex is going to magically make every DL on this team into HOFers, I'm simply pointing out the rather absurd nature of the stance that Rex apparently has no clue how DL play football, that he is going to decide to use Coples as a true LB for every down that he's on the field, and is doing something that everyone but Rex already knows for certain will be a complete failure.  I get that you don't like Rex, and I've definitely seen my opinion of him drop drastically over these past two years, but when you're trying to act like the guy doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to the DL of all things, you're not helping your cause.  Keep in mind, I'm not even saying Coples is going to work out for the Jets, because that's far from a sure thing at this point, but that doesn't come close to justifying this idea that the media is desperately trying to push, and some of you have felt the need to grasp onto, that Rex is going to use Coples the way every other team uses it's full-time LBs and therefore that means he's destined to ruin the career of an otherwise magnificent player.

 

There's plenty more legitimate reasons to dislike the guy as Jets HC, you really should stick to those.


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#22 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:30 AM

not sure how that's funny. Just about every team has a primary base front. We're only hoping Rex has some grand, dynamic scheme of multiple fronts that bucks a 60 year trend and sets the world on fire.

 

Not sure how true that is anymore. Also, Ryan is one of the few defensive coaches who puts on strong Ds when the rules favor the offense so I would say there's some bucking of trends. It's not some  hope that he has a grand dynamic scheme, it's what he's done for 4 years here and a decade before that. 


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#23 T0mShane

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:31 AM

Your fun fact is loaded and stupid.

2009 Jets drafted no defensive players
2010 Jets drafted 1 defensive player (who will never make the pro bowl, like most others drafted by everyone)
2011 Jets drafted 2 defensive players (1 was awesome already in year 2, whether he got silly pro bowl honors or not; the other was a pure 3-4 NT stuck behind one of the NFL's best)
2012 No NFL team drafted a pro bowler on defense. The only two pro bowl players drafted by anyone were RGIII (2nd pick in the country, who the Jets had no shot of drafting, and a dome kicker)

So the way I see it, since it's too early to judge 2012's draftees for the Jets or anyone else, you're looking at exactly 3 players from 2 drafts. One of them is a stud, 1 of them is not, and 1 of them is getting his first real starting opportunity in 2013.

The close of the 2013 season will be a good time to better judge our defensive draft picks - and Rex's development of them - since Rex was named HC here. Not only to get a better look at 2012's draft class, but a little bit for 2013's also because we took a defensive player in the top 10 and another at #13 and both are expected to start as rookies.



Yeah, I'm pretty confident in my little fun fact in the context we're discussing here--that is, giving Rex the benefit of the doubt in developing players. Four years in and the best support anyone can point to is "But Wilkerson..." The thing that's both loaded and stupid is this idea that anything he does with a drafted player is somehow touched by God and therefore beyond reproach.

Edited by T0mShane, 11 May 2013 - 01:48 AM.

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#24 T0mShane

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:40 AM

Ah, so then it's really only the DL that count? Just curious, because you were making quite the emphatic statement about how much it meant that the Jets had no Pro Bowlers drafted during his time here. Didn't realize the massive sample size we were looking at was two. Then again, what kind of useless players don't make the Pro Bowl in their first two years / rookie year respectively?

Keep in mind, I'm not even saying that Rex is going to magically make every DL on this team into HOFers, I'm simply pointing out the rather absurd nature of the stance that Rex apparently has no clue how DL play football, that he is going to decide to use Coples as a true LB for every down that he's on the field, and is doing something that everyone but Rex already knows for certain will be a complete failure. I get that you don't like Rex, and I've definitely seen my opinion of him drop drastically over these past two years, but when you're trying to act like the guy doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to the DL of all things, you're not helping your cause. Keep in mind, I'm not even saying Coples is going to work out for the Jets, because that's far from a sure thing at this point, but that doesn't come close to justifying this idea that the media is desperately trying to push, and some of you have felt the need to grasp onto, that Rex is going to use Coples the way every other team uses it's full-time LBs and therefore that means he's destined to ruin the career of an otherwise magnificent player.

There's plenty more legitimate reasons to dislike the guy as Jets HC, you really should stick to those.


It'd obviously be great if Coples worked out at OLB and became Terrell Suggs. This is not the debate. But it's fair game to question the logic of such a move, and it's not sufficient to say "Well, if Rex is doing it, it must be smart," because there's not much in Rex's record recently to suggest that he knows what he's doing with bringing players along. You guys want to treat him like he's the defensive version of Bill Walsh developing quarterbacks because Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata--which Rex likes to point to--but Baltimore was producing those players before Rex got there and they're still producing them after he left.

Edited by T0mShane, 11 May 2013 - 02:06 AM.

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#25 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:46 AM

Yeah, I'm pretty confident in my little fun fact in the context we're discussing here--that is, giving Rex the benefit of the doubt in developing players. Four years in and the best support anyone can point to is "But Wilkerson..." The thing that's both loaded and stupid is this idea that anything he does with a drafted player is somehow touched by God and therefore beyond reproach.

 

You are finding fault with him for not turning out multiple pro bowlers on defense in all the years Rex has been here.  The insinuation is that there has been failure after failure on this front.  The reality is that there is a pool of THREE players to judge this by.  One of those three is awesome, one is lousy, and one had been stuck behind a must-start player.

 

I've hardly been one to suck off Rex week after week, but show me another coach where 50% of the defensive draft picks that have started (and 33% of all draftees taken) have developed to pro bowl level within 2 years.


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