Post: Jets considering "completely shaking up their franchise"

[T0mShane]

My point was that our defense is still good despite having the safety issues. It's talented beyond Revis and Harris. We have a good defensive core, even if it needs a facelift in some areas.

The offense is where we need a serious infusion of talent, but really, it's missing like 3 players other than Manning. A RT, a guard to replace Moore in the long-term, and a #1 WR with size and speed. And seeing how this conversation is based on why Manning would find it appealing here, it's really not terribly far away since two of those 3 things are not premium NFL positions.

You gotta get the pass rusher to close the game. You can only confuse the great QB with scheme for so long--at some point you have to start putting him on his back. Yes, the QB is central. Unfortunately, our FO couldn't draft a pass rusher or QB if you handed them 20 first round picks.

[HessStation]

Uh...... no every roster does not have that sorry Hess. The Pats Defense improved and they are very young in a lot of areas. Im positive we are not in that position. The Giants have an elite Defensive line which when hot can carry a defense they have done it on 2 SB runs now while the Jets have elite corner play they cant defend the middle of the field due to slow old LB's and Slow crappy Safties

This should be put in Webster under "grass is always greener."

The one thing the Pats and Giants have the Jets dont is a QB. Everything else is relative. You can argue back and forth these guys have the better DL, these guys the better secondary, those guys are younger yadda yadda. The talent isnt that big of a difference other than in that one big spot.

What I really don't feel comfortable with is Slauson and Hunter if you're gonna get Manning. And they're fresh out of cap if they do get him so you're relying on the draft.... Which besides DeCastro, is also scary.

[SMC]

No the Jets are solid as in, they have a solid roster.

Whatever, we can all agree to disagree on this. They are lacking a pass rush and QB. Sucks. So are a lot of teams. Fill those 2 spots, the team is elite IMO. We can go in circles on this, but I dont really care to. SMC is lala land these days.

At least you maintain a stable position, all day, every day. lol

Shane and I are saying the same thing (which sickens me to admit, but still). The problem with your position is that Elite Pass Rush & QB masks so many problems, so of course that makes the team elite.

Were the Giants elite last season when they won the SB? Their D sucked overall, they had no run game, but they had an elite QB and pass rush which carried them to the SB.

[HessStation]

You gotta get the pass rusher to close the game. You can only confuse the great QB with scheme for so long--at some point you have to start putting him on his back. Yes, the QB is central. Unfortunately, our FO couldn't draft a pass rusher or QB if you handed them 20 first round picks.

To be fair they haven't really tried besides gholston. Really like 0-1 and then they stopped trying. Prior to that Parcells was on point with J Abe.

[Integrity28]

Don't agree.

Intent on losing and being more concerned with developing talent than expecting a championship are two very different things.

I didn't imply they were the same. What I'm saying is that every team develops talent every year. NO team goes into a season saying talent development is more important than winning. However, every year lots of teams end up telling their fans that "this was a rebuilding year where we focused on developing talent". It's reactionary... they HAD to focus on developing talent, because they couldn't win. It's polishing a turd.

Priority #1 is ALWAYS winning in the NFL. If that can't be accomplished then yes, the focus shifts, and then the spin begins to satiate the fanbase. When was the last time a fanbase got pissed because their team was winning games instead of focusing on rebuilding the team?

[T0mShane]

Shane and I are saying the same thing (which sickens me to admit, but still).

We always say the same thing. I just say it a full season before your pride lets you agree to it.

[JustInFudge]

Shane and I are saying the same thing (which sickens me to admit, but still). The problem with your position is that Elite Pass Rush & QB masks so many problems, so of course that makes the team elite.

Were the Giants elite last season when they won the SB? Their D sucked overall, they had no run game, but they had an elite QB and pass rush which carried them to the SB.

Huh? Dude, you arent making sense. So the Jets have been a playoff/SB contenders the last 3 seasons without the 2 most important positions that masks so many problems but their roster isnt solid? Okay...

[T0mShane]

To be fair they haven't really tried besides gholston. Really like 0-1 and then they stopped trying. Prior to that Parcells was on point with J Abe.

Which is mind-boggling when you think about it.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

The Jets D is solid, without question, but that's because of Rex. Rex can take a college team, play them in the NFL, and still have a top 10 defense. He's that good.

I disagree on good defensive core, but not so strongly as it's worth debating. Rex overcomes a lot. And, I agree with you on the O, but will point out that a #1 WR with size and speed is pretty difficult to find. The Jets came close with Braylon, but let him go to re-sign Asstonio and bring in Plaxasaurus.

Even harder when the Jets never try that hard to look. Frustrating as **** that the Jets never take a risk on the offensive skill positions, but were more than willing to go for broke on a QB with one season of starting experience.

[SMC]

Huh? Dude, you arent making sense. So the Jets have been a playoff/SB contenders the last 3 seasons without the 2 most important positions that masks so many problems but their roster isnt solid? Okay...

REX EFFECT.

[JustInFudge]

REX EFFECT.

LMFAO!!! I do <3 him very much.

[HessStation]

Shane and I are saying the same thing (which sickens me to admit, but still). The problem with your position is that Elite Pass Rush & QB masks so many problems, so of course that makes the team elite.

Were the Giants elite last season when they won the SB? Their D sucked overall, they had no run game, but they had an elite QB and pass rush which carried them to the SB.

Yep, i would contend, which has been my argument, the Jets roster is fine. But they are missing two important pieces every other playoff team seems to have at least one of. QB, pass rushers. Go figure he Super Bowl champs two biggest strengths were those two things. Rest of the roster you could consider very average or on par with the rest of the NFL.

[SMC]

We always say the same thing. I just say it a full season before your pride lets you agree to it.

That's true because you're a prophet. Fortunately for you that you don't live back in the day because back then the people would torture and kill prophets because they didn't like what they said.

[T0mShane]

That's true because you're a prophet. Fortunately for you that you don't live back in the day because back then the people would torture and kill prophets because they didn't like what they said.

I thank my lucky stars.

[ZachEY]

I didn't imply they were the same. What I'm saying is that every team develops talent every year. NO team goes into a season saying talent development is more important than winning. However, every year lots of teams end up telling their fans that "this was a rebuilding year where we focused on developing talent". It's reactionary... they HAD to focus on developing talent, because they couldn't win. It's polishing a turd.

Priority #1 is ALWAYS winning in the NFL. If that can't be accomplished then yes, the focus shifts, and then the spin begins to satiate the fanbase. When was the last time a fanbase got pissed because their team was winning games instead of focusing on rebuilding the team?

Well, for fans that have a more realistic outlook, it's not about the spin, but the fact that while "Priority #1" is winning, it's just not going to happen this year for a lot of teams. They know it before the season starts. Do you think in the Jacksonville Jaguars front office, they were shocked when the Superbowl started to slip away in the first quarter of the season.

In line with bitonti's and to a lesser degree, your claim, we should be happy about beating the Titans in OT in 2007 taking us from 3-13 to 4-12, and out of Matt Ryan territory and into Vernon Gholston territory. So glad we got that win. Brought me a whole bunch of joy that day.

[dbatesman]

That's true because you're a prophet. Fortunately for you that you don't live back in the day because back then the people would torture and kill prophets because they didn't like what they said.

Yeah. Some a$$hole would have dragged him out of his house and burned him at the stake for being racist against Latinos.

[HessStation]

Huh? Dude, you arent making sense. So the Jets have been a playoff/SB contenders the last 3 seasons without the 2 most important positions that masks so many problems but their roster isnt solid? Okay...

I agree the roster is solid. Not sure what else people expect. Both teams in last years SB had no name UDFA's, aging vets, and underachieving, overpaid starters and backups on their roster.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Well, for fans that have a more realistic outlook, it's not about the spin, but the fact that while "Priority #1" is winning, it's just not going to happen this year for a lot of teams. They know it before the season starts. Do you think in the Jacksonville Jaguars front office, they were shocked when the Superbowl started to slip away in the first quarter of the season.

In line with bitonti's and to a lesser degree, your claim, we should be happy about beating the Titans in OT in 2007 taking us from 3-13 to 4-12, and out of Matt Ryan territory and into Vernon Gholston territory. So glad we got that win. Brought me a whole bunch of joy that day.

The Chiefs, not the Titans. I know, because I don't remember ever being so pissed about a victory in my life. Was infuriated when idiots on the board were telling me that they were rooting for the win.

[T0mShane]

In line with bitonti's and to a lesser degree, your claim, we should be happy about beating the Titans in OT in 2007 taking us from 3-13 to 4-12, and out of Matt Ryan territory and into Vernon Gholston territory. So glad we got that win. Brought me a whole bunch of joy that day.

Wasn't that the year Al Davis started Marques Tuiasasopo against us, effectively throwing the game, so the Raiders would stay ahead of us in draft order?

[JohnnyHector]

When was the last time a fanbase got pissed because their team was winning games instead of focusing on rebuilding the team?

December 30, 2007.

A meaningless OT victory against KC "propels" the Jets to a 4-12 record, landing them the #6 pick in the draft instead of #3, with which they select Vernon Gholston.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[T0mShane]

Yeah. Some a$$hole would have dragged him out of his house and burned him at the stake for being racist against Latinos.

My White-Guy-Racial-Sensitivity Meter went off and I panicked and went back and see if I said something racially offensive. God, I hate being white.

[JustInFudge]

In line with bitonti's and to a lesser degree, your claim, we should be happy about beating the Titans in OT in 2007 taking us from 3-13 to 4-12, and out of Matt Ryan territory and into Vernon Gholston territory. So glad we got that win. Brought me a whole bunch of joy that day.

So if you're a HC going into that game, you're pregame speech is...."hey, look, I know we are very competitive and want to win, but, we need to look to the future...soooo...tank this game. K, thanks!, go team".

lol

I love the what if speculation about if we didnt win this game, we'd have this player. I do it too but come'on. You cant tell the bunch of Vets to tank a game to secure a draft position for some kid out of college to save the franchise. Just dont think that is realistic at all.

[CTM]

ANyone who thinks the Jets don't have a good core and solid coaching is out of their tree... THe giants had elite QB play and a pass rush and needed a ccowboys collapse to even make the playoffs.. THe jets had TERRIBLE QB play and were 1 game off... A healthy manning on last years Jets team and we win 13 at least

[JohnnyHector]

So if you're a HC going into that game, you're pregame speech is...."hey, look, I know we are very competitive and want to win, but, we need to look to the future...soooo...tank this game. K, thanks!, go team".

lol

I love the what if speculation about if we didnt win this game, we'd have this player. I do it too but come'on. You cant tell the bunch of Vets to tank a game to secure a draft position for some kid out of college to save the franchise. Just dont think that is realistic at all.

On behalf of all of those here who haven't played short-season A-ball, AAU against the likes of Half-man Half-amazing, poker with David Garrard, or mahjong with Jack Del Rio's housekeeper, I want to thank you for this insight as to how real athletes think and respond to locker room speeches.

[T0mShane]

On behalf of all of those here who haven't played short-season A-ball, AAU against the likes of Half-man Half-amazing, poker with David Garrard, or mahjong with Jack Del Rio's housekeeper, I want to thank you for this insight as to how real athletes think and respond to locker room speeches.

That's what we call "the sizzler" right there. Ouch.

[JustInFudge]

On behalf of all of those here who haven't played short-season A-ball, AAU against the likes of Half-man Half-amazing, poker with David Garrard, or mahjong with Jack Del Rio's housekeeper, I want to thank you for this insight as to how real athletes think and respond to locker room speeches.

LMFAO - I didnt know how to articulate that thought without my impersonation of a "Tank this one for the Gipper" speech. But seriously, of course fans want to tank the game for the better draft position...but I dont think thats how teams go about it. Maybe I'm wrong.

And I've never met Jack's house keeper.

[SMC]

ANyone who thinks the Jets don't have a good core and solid coaching is out of their tree... THe giants had elite QB play and a pass rush and needed a ccowboys collapse to even make the playoffs.. THe jets had TERRIBLE QB play and were 1 game off... A healthy manning on last years Jets team and we win 13 at least

HE LIVES!!!!!!

And, BTW, that's what great QBs do.

That has nothing to do with solid core. Great QBs mask a crap load of problems.

[ZachEY]

So if you're a HC going into that game, you're pregame speech is...."hey, look, I know we are very competitive and want to win, but, we need to look to the future...soooo...tank this game. K, thanks!, go team".

lol

I love the what if speculation about if we didnt win this game, we'd have this player. I do it too but come'on. You cant tell the bunch of Vets to tank a game to secure a draft position for some kid out of college to save the franchise. Just dont think that is realistic at all.

Realistic or not, I was told that more wins are always better. I disagree.

[CTM]

HE LIVES!!!!!!

And, BTW, that's what great QBs do.

That has nothing to do with solid core. Great QBs mask a crap load of problems.

Exactly, which is my entire point. We've had a ton of success without a great QB over the last 3 years.. THe only other team that could say that is Baltimore, but I think thier defense is aging and they are a little more secure at QB then we are.... Plus NY >>>> Baltimore

[Bleedin Green]

So at what point exactly did the portion of the argument about the quality of the Jets roster somehow turn into semantics over each person's independent view of what exactly qualifies as "solid"? Not great or even good mind you, just solid. You've got to love the offseason.

As far as the whole wins vs. rebuilding argument goes, while no team goes into the season intent on tanking it, there is no doubt decisions are made with that exact mindset. Teams make choices with the goal of improving the future ability of the team to win, by knowingly somewhat sacrificing the present. Does anyone here really think that when the Jets told Favre to go **** himself and drafted Sanchez that they really thought he would be the better QB that year? Regardless of how it may (or may not) have worked out, the long term goal was clearly sacrificing the present for the future.

[JustInFudge]

Realistic or not, I was told that more wins are always better. I disagree.

I tend to lean on the side of the more wins the better. I can obviously see both sides but say we dont win that game, and we get someone different than Gholston. You honestly think that changes anything? You think the Jake or Chris Long, Ryan, McFadden or Dorsey actually makes the Jets a better team and we'd have a different outcome over the past few years?

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I tend to lean on the side of the more wins the better. I can obviously see both sides but say we dont win that game, and we get someone different than Gholston. You honestly think that changes anything? You think the Jake or Chris Long, Ryan, McFadden or Dorsey actually makes the Jets a better team and we'd have a different outcome over the past few years?

I'm going to go with yes.

[Bleedin Green]

HE LIVES!!!!!!

And, BTW, that's what great QBs do.

That has nothing to do with solid core. Great QBs mask a crap load of problems.

Of course they do, but the point is every team, even those with great QBs, have a crap load of problems. Just look at your boys, despite a markedly better QB, the difference between each teams regular season record was their head to head matchup, and the Giants have only blind luck to thank for the fact that they even made the playoffs to begin with.

By your logic, the only way for a team to qualify as even "solid" is for them to have great success despite a sh*tty QB, seeing as how as soon as your team has a good QB, the rest of the team is not actually good, but rather just hidden by the QB. So when was the last time we've even seen a solid team in the NFL? The 2002 Bucs, or did Johnson play too well that year? How about the 2000 Ravens? Although I guess if we're really willing to knock back the criteria a bit, the 49ers are able to qualify as the one and only solid team in the NFL this season.

[ZachEY]

I tend to lean on the side of the more wins the better. I can obviously see both sides but say we dont win that game, and we get someone different than Gholston. You honestly think that changes anything? You think the Jake or Chris Long, Ryan, McFadden or Dorsey actually makes the Jets a better team and we'd have a different outcome over the past few years?

I think all things being equal, Matt Ryan makes us a lot better. Think about how many more picks we get too... We don't trade for Favre, we don't trade up for Sanchez... This team has more depth and a better QB right now. Huge improvement.

Ryan may not be elite, but if you're right about this team, you'd have to think he's enough.

[SMC]

I think all things being equal, Matt Ryan makes us a lot better. Think about how many more picks we get too... We don't trade for Favre, we don't trade up for Sanchez... This team has more depth and a better QB right now. Huge improvement.

Ryan may not be elite, but if you're right about this team, you'd have to think he's enough.

But doesn't that mean that Mangini is still the HC?