It's The Special Teams....

[Villain The Foe]

That killed this team yesterday. I made a comment earlier last week regarding Jeremy Kerley and his "mediocre at best" special teams performance. Yesterday this guy fair caught two punts inside the 10 with one of them being inside the 5. His only return was for 6 yards. This directly impacts the Jets offensive field position. 

Taking the above in mind, having the offense start inside the 10 twice and not moving the ball all the way down the field puts us further in the hole given the travesty called our punting unit. Steve Weatherford had 4 punts with a long of 50 yards. Now the 50 yarder seems pretty good until you see his average. With that 50 yarder included Weatherford averaged 30 yards on 4 punts. Now remove that 50 yarder and you have 3 punts that averaged less than 25 yards. None of Weatherford's punts registered inside the 20. 

So, you have Kerley starting the Jets off with 3 drives inside the 20 (two being inside the 10) and you have Weatherford kicking 25 yard punts on average 3 out of 4 times. 

This game was lost by special teams, no doubt about it. The only guys who showed up was Owusu averaging 29 yards on his two kickoff returns and Folk making all of his FG attempts. 

 

Now adding to the fact that the Jets started a few of their offensive drives way inside the 20, lets now compare that to the Pats Special teams unit. Of Weatherfords 4 punts, 3 were returned (2 by Edleman 1 by Amendola). Edleman averaged 13 yards per return with his longest being 17 yards and Amendola returned his only punt 11 yards. So not only were these guys having punt returns of over 10 yards add that to the fact that the Jets were usually punting deep in their own side of the field giving the Patriots great opportunity to start their offensive drive in Jets territory. 

Also, the Pats punter, Allen punted 3 times for an average of 42 yards per with a long of 47. All three of his punts (caught by Kerley) put the Jets deep inside the 20. And as stated earlier Kerley's only return was of 6 yards, reminding me of exactly what I said last week which was "If Kerley is returning punts expect the Jets to start their offense 5 yards past the place where Kerley caught the ball he doesnt actually fair catch it". What made it worse is that the guy fair caught a ball on the 5 yard line. Thats just nuts and totally cost an opportunity for the Jets to start their drive at the 20 yard line with a touchback.

I know that there were a few people that may give Kerley the benefit of the doubt given that he's a fan favorite, however, if this was Zac Stacy returning punts at this production rate it would be a bigger deal. 

The Patriots special teams kept us deep in our territory and when we punted the Pats started their drive either close to the 50 or already in Jets territory. 

The Jets have lost two games, both by 7 points and both games can both be tied directly to special teams. The Jets need to do something on specials if we expect to win games against better opponents. The team has the talent to do so on both sides of the ball, but losing games via special teams is ridiculous. 

[nj meadowlands]

Nothing about the loss yesterday was Jeremy Kerley's fault

[Villain The Foe]

Nothing about the loss yesterday was Jeremy Kerley's fault

lol sure it wasnt. 

fair catching the ball inside the 10 twice isnt Kerley's fault. Whatever you say bro. 

[JetBlue]

You are 100 percent correct; I started a similar thread yesterday.  We lost the field position game yesterday and that was directly related to our special teams performance.   

[JETSfaninNE]

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

[dbatesman]

It's been brutal all season. FO's numbers say we've given away 16+ points of estimated field position on STs, which is next to last in the league. The really scary thing is that they also say we've gotten back 12+ points from opposing teams' gaffes that are out of our control (FG accuracy, kickoff/punt distance), so things could actually get worse if the latter number regresses. And of course all of this is amplified by our style of play. A real sh*tshow all around.

[BigRy56]

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

We miss Westhoff terribly

[Villain The Foe]

You are 100 percent correct; I started a similar thread yesterday.  We lost the field position game yesterday and that was directly related to our special teams performance.   

Our special teams was unbelievable yesterday. No way in the world I expected Weatherford to actually be worse than Quigley. This guy was literally starting the Pats off with half the field to work with AT BEST, at worst they were starting already 10 yards away from field goal range. 

Jeremy Kerley is becoming a disappointment. Now I said last week that the guy isnt the worst, but he isnt good either. I can understand that this is not really his game, but we put Kerley back their because he's a solid punt catcher, however, fair catching the ball on the inside the 10 and inside the 5 was just a brain dead decision on his part. 

[nj meadowlands]

lol sure it wasnt. 

fair catching the ball inside the 10 twice isnt Kerley's fault. Whatever you say bro. 

Our STs have sucked all year, but you're doing the thing you always do---- focusing in on something that you've been beating to death on this board in prior weeks for some kind of validation.  Want to blame Weatherford, or our punt coverage, or pathetic blocking on kickoff returns?  Anyone here will rap with you.  Jeremy Kerley on punt returns?  Give me a break.

Kerley Kerley Bercovici Mike Glennon Kerley Bercovici something something mutter mutter.

[Beerfish]

It's not all specials but they have been very poor for years now.  We have had a good Fg kicker, ZERO return game and horrific punters for years.

It has amazed me that a team under Rex and now this regime that seem to rely on good D, ball control offense that we neglect that aspect of the team so badly.  The worst part of it is that we don't even seem to try to improve things like punting.  We bring in one scrub to compete in camp with the incumbent and that is it.

[nj meadowlands]

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

This is simply not true.  You don't fair catch inside the 5.  You can absolutely fair catch around the 7 yard line if you're surrounded by coverage men.

[Villain The Foe]

Our STs have sucked all year, but you're doing the thing you always do---- focusing in on something that you've been beating to death on this board in prior weeks for some kind of validation.  Want to blame Weatherford, or our punt coverage, or pathetic blocking on kickoff returns?  Anyone here will rap with you.  Jeremy Kerley on punt returns?  Give me a break.

Kerley Kerley Bercovici Mike Glennon Kerley Bercovici something something mutter mutter.

Doing the thing I always do is called being consistent. Thats a compliment. I dont need validation from people who've participate in those very conversations with me. Watching the game is giving validation. 

If you feel this way then what I'll do is carry on the convo with others who participate in this thread. This will allow you not to feel like you must participate in my "beating to death a subject" by feeling the need to respond to me responding to you. 

There are enough people here that will like to talk about this subject with me. 

[nj meadowlands]

Doing the thing I always do is called being consistent. Thats a compliment. I dont need validation from people who've participate in those very conversations with me. Watching the game is giving validation. 

If you feel this way then what I'll do is carry on the convo with others who participate in this thread. This will allow you not to feel like you must participate in my "beating to death a subject" by feeling the need to respond to me responding to you. 

There are enough people here that will like to talk about this subject with me. 

Oh, I'm aware.

[dbatesman]

FO's numbers say we've given away 16+ points of estimated field position on STs, which is next to last in the league. The really scary thing is that they also say we've gotten back 12+ points from opposing teams' gaffes that are out of our control (FG accuracy, kickoff/punt distance)

More good news: these numbers don't include yesterday's dumpster fire, so they'll be even worse 24 hours from now.

[Villain The Foe]

It's not all specials but they have been very poor for years now.  We have had a good Fg kicker, ZERO return game and horrific punters for years.

It has amazed me that a team under Rex and now this regime that seem to rely on good D, ball control offense that we neglect that aspect of the team so badly.  The worst part of it is that we don't even seem to try to improve things like punting.  We bring in one scrub to compete in camp with the incumbent and that is it.

It's not all specials, of course not. I wouldnt blame Marshall's dropped TD or Fitz fumble on Specials. The difference here is that guys like Marshall, Fitz Decker etc. have all had good games for us more often than not. Special teams have been a problem win-or-lose the entire season. Its becoming our Achilles heal, especially when you can go back to the losses and see where special teams contributed in the loss yet we can almost never go back to a win and show how special teams directly contributed to a win. 

We're winning games without special teams. 

[Villain The Foe]

More good news: these numbers don't include yesterday's dumpster fire, so they'll be even worse 24 hours from now.

We need to do something because we cant expect to continue to win games in despite of our special teams. Field position is a major part now, especially with Fitz liability throwing deep. And thats not a knock on Fitz, the man has been good for us. I just say it because special teams needs to help out Fitz and the offense. Putting the offense in position of having to go 50-60 yards just to get into field goal range is not going to cut it when we're looking to put points on the board on every possession. Fair catching the ball inside the 10/5 or having returns of 6 yards isnt helping the offense or a Punting unit with a dead leg. 

 

You're absolutely right. 

[Villain The Foe]

We miss Westhoff terribly

Yeah we do. That guy really gets it. 

[Beerfish]

Leon Washington make a lot of game changing plays, heck even Brad smith made a few.

Too bad the no fun league decided to eliminate kick off returns.

[Villain The Foe]

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

Exactly. Even if Kerley was surrounded its his job to pretend where the ball is heading. You can get an idea of where the ball is heading. If the ball is inside the 10 you can move up and act like you're fair catching at the 13 or something and let the ball bounce out behind you. Its never productive to fair catch the ball inside the 10. I mean this isnt even rocket science here. Let the ball possibly bounce into the endzone, if the Pats got a favorable bounce then so be it, but dont guarantee it by fair catching it. 

[CrazyCarl40]

So. What's the solution? Another punter? I'm not sure there is another one out there, or else he'd be here. Another punt returner? Okay who? And who are you cutting to make it work? Consistently calling out weak spots without providing actual solutions gets old quickly. 

[ylekram]

lol sure it wasnt. 

fair catching the ball inside the 10 twice isnt Kerley's fault. Whatever you say bro. 

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

this is worrisome, but I don't think its kerleys fault. I think its the jets protocol. he does it every time. I would think that if the jets didn't want him to do it every time, they would do something about it.

[JohnnyLV]

Westhoff even called this out.  This in unacceptable, you never fair catch within the 10, you fake fair catch sure, but you don't actually catch the damn ball

That is just not a true statement any longer. With the way they punt now those often wind up inside the 5. 

[thshadow]

I think we all agree our special teams have been bad this year.  (Though blaming Weatherford is kindof silly, because if Quigley's injury was discovered a day later, I guess Folk would have been punting.)

Here's an interesting stat, "expected points":

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/2015.htm

									Score		Offense					Defense					Expected Points
Week	Day	Date			OT	Rec		Opp	Tm	Opp	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	Offense	Defense	Sp. Tms
1	Sun	September 13	boxscore	W		1-0		Cleveland Browns	31	10	18	333	179	154	1	15	321	217	104	5	12.74	12.74	-2.57
2	Mon	September 21	boxscore	W		2-0	@	Indianapolis Colts	20	7	20	344	243	101	1	17	343	250	93	5	3.53	6.84	-0.64
3	Sun	September 27	boxscore	L		2-1		Philadelphia Eagles	17	24	19	323	276	47	4	18	231	108	123	1	-13.00	9.49	-4.25
4	Sun	October 4	boxscore	W		3-1	@	Miami Dolphins	27	14	23	425	218	207	1	17	226	167	59	2	4.80	12.53	-7.50
5								Bye Week
6	Sun	October 18	boxscore	W		4-1		Washington Redskins	34	20	22	474	253	221	3	14	225	191	34	2	8.72	11.90	-6.67
7	Sun	October 25	boxscore	L		4-2	@	New England Patriots	23	30	25	372	283	89	1	20	353	337	16		10.33	-11.28	-3.42

You can see that our special teams play has been negative every single game.

 

[JohnnyLV]

It's not all specials, of course not. I wouldnt blame Marshall's dropped TD or Fitz fumble on Specials. The difference here is that guys like Marshall, Fitz Decker etc. have all had good games for us more often than not. Special teams have been a problem win-or-lose the entire season. Its becoming our Achilles heal, especially when you can go back to the losses and see where special teams contributed in the loss yet we can almost never go back to a win and show how special teams directly contributed to a win. 

We're winning games without special teams. 

My one niggling fear with Bowles is that he seems to not value the role of special teams very much. It's like he views it as 2.5 phases of the game instead of 3. Little bit distressing. Also, the extreme conservatism he showed yesterday was worrying as well. Lots to like. but at the end of the day he is yet another defensive minded head coach that might just be too conservative elsewhere. Jury still out. Still an upgrade over the Blowhard any day.

[greenwichjetfan]

Our STs have sucked all year, but you're doing the thing you always do---- focusing in on something that you've been beating to death on this board in prior weeks for some kind of validation.  Want to blame Weatherford, or our punt coverage, or pathetic blocking on kickoff returns?  Anyone here will rap with you.  Jeremy Kerley on punt returns?  Give me a break.

Kerley Kerley Bercovici Mike Glennon Kerley Bercovici something something mutter mutter.

Jeremy Kerley gave up the 3rd & 17.

Not having Glennon is the reason why two PIs in the endzone and countless holding calls against the pats OL weren't called.

And Bercovici is why our gunners weren't getting down the field to drop Amendola/Edelman until after they gained 15 yards+/return. 

The three main culprits in our loss. 

[Villain The Foe]

 

this is worrisome, but I don't think its kerleys fault. I think its the jets protocol. he does it every time. I would think that if the jets didn't want him to do it every time, they would do something about it.

It could be the Jets protocol, however, its hard to believe that the Jets would tell Kerley to catch the ball inside the 10 or 5. Though its possible, I just cant see that. Either way its impacting the offense in a bad way. 

[Villain The Foe]

Jeremy Kerley gave up the 3rd & 17.

Not having Glennon is the reason why two PIs in the endzone and countless holding calls against the pats OL weren't called.

And Bercovici is why our gunners weren't getting down the field to drop Amendola/Edelman until after they gained 15 yards+/return. 

The three main culprits in our loss. 

Dont forget the actual punters or actual fair catches inside the 10 (which is actually what im talking about here). 

No need to be an assclown. 

[JiFtheOracle]

That killed this team yesterday. I made a comment earlier last week regarding Jeremy Kerley and his "mediocre at best" special teams performance. Yesterday this guy fair caught two punts inside the 10 with one of them being inside the 5. His only return was for 6 yards. This directly impacts the Jets offensive field position. 

Taking the above in mind, having the offense start inside the 10 twice and not moving the ball all the way down the field puts us further in the hole given the travesty called our punting unit. Steve Weatherford had 4 punts with a long of 50 yards. Now the 50 yarder seems pretty good until you see his average. With that 50 yarder included Weatherford averaged 30 yards on 4 punts. Now remove that 50 yarder and you have 3 punts that averaged less than 25 yards. None of Weatherford's punts registered inside the 20. 

So, you have Kerley starting the Jets off with 3 drives inside the 20 (two being inside the 10) and you have Weatherford kicking 25 yard punts on average 3 out of 4 times. 

This game was lost by special teams, no doubt about it. The only guys who showed up was Owusu averaging 29 yards on his two kickoff returns and Folk making all of his FG attempts. 

 

Now adding to the fact that the Jets started a few of their offensive drives way inside the 20, lets now compare that to the Pats Special teams unit. Of Weatherfords 4 punts, 3 were returned (2 by Edleman 1 by Amendola). Edleman averaged 13 yards per return with his longest being 17 yards and Amendola returned his only punt 11 yards. So not only were these guys having punt returns of over 10 yards add that to the fact that the Jets were usually punting deep in their own side of the field giving the Patriots great opportunity to start their offensive drive in Jets territory. 

Also, the Pats punter, Allen punted 3 times for an average of 42 yards per with a long of 47. All three of his punts (caught by Kerley) put the Jets deep inside the 20. And as stated earlier Kerley's only return was of 6 yards, reminding me of exactly what I said last week which was "If Kerley is returning punts expect the Jets to start their offense 5 yards past the place where Kerley caught the ball he doesnt actually fair catch it". What made it worse is that the guy fair caught a ball on the 5 yard line. Thats just nuts and totally cost an opportunity for the Jets to start their drive at the 20 yard line with a touchback.

I know that there were a few people that may give Kerley the benefit of the doubt given that he's a fan favorite, however, if this was Zac Stacy returning punts at this production rate it would be a bigger deal. 

The Patriots special teams kept us deep in our territory and when we punted the Pats started their drive either close to the 50 or already in Jets territory. 

The Jets have lost two games, both by 7 points and both games can both be tied directly to special teams. The Jets need to do something on specials if we expect to win games against better opponents. The team has the talent to do so on both sides of the ball, but losing games via special teams is ridiculous. 

Dude...he had guys breaking free every single time.  Are you watching these games?  He doesnt get blocks.  The blocking on punt returns is terrible.. Those fair catches, he had 2 guys on both sides of him.  Those balls could have rolled down to the 1 yard line, they had guys down their quickly.

You're way off on this.  Its not the punt returners fault if he doesnt have any room to operate.  

 

[Villain The Foe]

Dude...he had guys breaking free every single time.  Are you watching these games?  He doesnt get blocks.  The blocking on punt returns is terrible.. Those fair catches, he had 2 guys on both sides of him.  Those balls could have rolled down to the 1 yard line, they had guys down their quickly.

You're way off on this.  Its not the punt returners fault if he doesnt have any room to operate.  

 

What does two guys breaking free have to do with fair catching the ball inside the 10 twice? Force them to make the play while taking your chance at a touchback which is much more likely to get than actually fair catching the ball. 

Why the excuses man? Whether they ran free or not you give the offense an opportunity to start at the 20. Im not saying that your overall point is irrelevant, special teams as a whole is bad. That has nothing to do with fair catching the ball inside the 10 and at the 5. The defenders could have stopped the ball from going out, but its still Kerley's responsiblity to atleast pretend as if the ball is dropping elsewhere. Most times the defenders are watching Kerley, not the ball bro. If  you see the ball sailing inside like that then move up which will force the defenders playing kerley to move up to his position, let the ball bounce behind him and take your chances on a touchback. 

 

Thats not hard and there's no need to make excuses for it. 

[Snell41]

This team is 100% reliant on winning the Field Position and Time of Possession battle.  Without both it will struggle.  Bowles knows this and it's shown throughout most of the season, it was something Parcells used to constantly preach.  With that said I can't kill bad punting when our punter literally stepped out of the radio booth and threw a uniform on. 

[Villain The Foe]

This team is 100% reliant on winning the Field Position and Time of Possession battle.  Without both it will struggle.  Bowles knows this and it's shown throughout most of the season, it was something Parcells used to constantly preach.  With that said I can't kill bad punting when our punter literally stepped out of the radio booth and threw a uniform on. 

True, but Quigley wasnt performing well this year either. Taking the season as a whole into account the punting game is bad. 

[jetscrazey]

time to spend a mid-late draft pick on a beast punter.  I'm so sick of the mediocre crap this team trots out every year at this position.

[Snell41]

True, but Quigley wasnt performing well this year either. Taking the season as a whole into account the punting game is bad. 

No he wasn't you're right.  But compared to Weatherford Quigley looks like Reggie Roby lol.  With that said we will have a few guys in for workouts this week so hopefully we find a guy that can at least be consistent. 

[Matt39]

The special teams are very bad.

[Villain The Foe]

No he wasn't you're right.  But compared to Weatherford Quigley looks like Reggie Roby lol.  With that said we will have a few guys in for workouts this week so hopefully we find a guy that can at least be consistent. 

I agree. Im not giving excuses for either one, though I had to say that I was surprised that Weatherford was THAT bad. I thought that he was an easy upgrade. Hopefully this will just be a situation where he was signed 24 hours prior to the game. 

It'll would be frightening if Quigley ends up being worlds better than Weatherford.