How did Houston Draft Under Mac? Critque or Good sign?

[CanadaSteve]

First things first: I think it is known that I support keeping him at least one more year.  I do not want to clean the house out.  I don't think we would get anyone worth any value.  Its just like any job; if you keep seeing the help wanted add for the same business all the time, you know something is up.  Well, if you keep changing your GM every two years, I DOUBT you get anyone worth two nickels to apply.

That being said, I think there are 2 major red flags to be concerned with:

1) His tendencies in drafting.

Mac has only had a job in professional sports as a scout/personnel....that's it. He started with Washington as an intern, went to the World League and the CFL, back to the Redskins, and then finally the Texans, where he spent 10 years as the coordinator of College scouting, 1 year as the assistant director of college scouting, and the final few years as the director of college scouting.  Did he actually MAKE the picks?  No.  But lets look at the tendencies the Texans drafted his entire time as a scout there.

To his credit, the Texans have hit above average on their first two picks in their draft.  Did they botch some?  Of course, every team does.  However, here is how the team drafted positionally in the first two rounds in the 14 years he was there:

Round 1

QB-1

WR-2

T-1

DB-4

DT-2

DE-3

LB-1

Round 2

RB-2

G-1

WR-3

TE-1

DE-2

DB-2

LB-1

Again, he did not make the picks, but a HEAVY emphasis on defense, particularly the line and DB.  As for offense, WR was the tendency, with a pretty good record of drafting there.

 

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

First things first: I think it is known that I support keeping him at least one more year.  I do not want to clean the house out.  I don't think we would get anyone worth any value.  Its just like any job; if you keep seeing the help wanted add for the same business all the time, you know something is up.  Well, if you keep changing your GM every two years, I DOUBT you get anyone worth two nickels to apply.

That being said, I think there are 2 major red flags to be concerned with:

1) His tendencies in drafting.

Mac has only had a job in professional sports as a scout/personnel....that's it. He started with Washington as an intern, went to the World League and the CFL, back to the Redskins, and then finally the Texans, where he spent 10 years as the coordinator of College scouting, 1 year as the assistant director of college scouting, and the final few years as the director of college scouting.  Did he actually MAKE the picks?  No.  But lets look at the tendencies the Texans drafted his entire time as a scout there.

To his credit, the Texans have hit above average on their first two picks in their draft.  Did they botch some?  Of course, every team does.  However, here is how the team drafted positionally in the first two rounds in the 14 years he was there:

Round 1

QB-1

WR-2

T-1

DB-4

DT-2

DE-3

LB-1

Round 2

RB-2

G-1

WR-3

TE-1

DE-2

DB-2

LB-1

Again, he did not make the picks, but a HEAVY emphasis on defense, particularly the line and DB.  As for offense, WR was the tendency, with a pretty good record of drafting there.

 

Seems like he goes defense in round 1 and offense in round 2. That has fit what he has done here as well.

And his finding of solid WRs late in the draft correspond to your second point

[CanadaSteve]

Concern number 2: Drafting QB's

David Carr was the QB listed above.  He might have been good, had they not have considered maybe protecting him.  Not an emphasis of his tenure in Houston. 

Of his entire time with the Texans, here are the QB's drafted by them:

2002 expansion draft David Carr Round 1

2003 Dave Ragnone  Round 5

2003 Drew Henson Round 7

2004 B.J. Symons Round 9

2008 Alex Brink  Round 7

2011 T.J. Yates Round 6

2014 Tom Savage Round 5

Perhaps after the Carr pick, they were gun-shy in picking another QB.  Carr played 5 seasons for them, and they got 7 solid seasons after that from Matt Schaub.  He just could not get them over the hump.

 

 

[kmnj]

5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

First things first: I think it is known that I support keeping him at least one more year.  I do not want to clean the house out.  I don't think we would get anyone worth any value.  Its just like any job; if you keep seeing the help wanted add for the same business all the time, you know something is up.  Well, if you keep changing your GM every two years, I DOUBT you get anyone worth two nickels to apply.

That being said, I think there are 2 major red flags to be concerned with:

1) His tendencies in drafting.

Mac has only had a job in professional sports as a scout/personnel....that's it. He started with Washington as an intern, went to the World League and the CFL, back to the Redskins, and then finally the Texans, where he spent 10 years as the coordinator of College scouting, 1 year as the assistant director of college scouting, and the final few years as the director of college scouting.  Did he actually MAKE the picks?  No.  But lets look at the tendencies the Texans drafted his entire time as a scout there.

To his credit, the Texans have hit above average on their first two picks in their draft.  Did they botch some?  Of course, every team does.  However, here is how the team drafted positionally in the first two rounds in the 14 years he was there:

Round 1

QB-1

WR-2

T-1

DB-4

DT-2

DE-3

LB-1

Round 2

RB-2

G-1

WR-3

TE-1

DE-2

DB-2

LB-1

Again, he did not make the picks, but a HEAVY emphasis on defense, particularly the line and DB.  As for offense, WR was the tendency, with a pretty good record of drafting there.

 

the above is 1000% false-in the business world if you pay top dollar you can get top candidates to come do the job even when the company is on the brink-it is a money world and guys if paid top dollar will line up for the chance

[bostonmajet]

Sorry, but he says every year that he will go BPA. Especially in the first round. Also Mac wasn't the one doing the drafting, so you can't go by what Houston did.

[CanadaSteve]

What has he done here now:

Round 1:  DE-1  LB-1  WR-1  QB-1

Like what happened in Houston, he has drafted Defense first and drafted a WR high, but drafting a QB in the 2nd round is out of character to what his teams did while he was there.

Where are my concerns:

1) HORRIBLE TRACK RECORD WITH QB'S:  Could the Houston Texans inability to draft QB's be a reflection on his talent evaluation at the position? This would not bode well with a team that hasn't had a QB for decades

2) NO EMPHASIS ON THE O-LINE: You can't have a good QB if he can't stay upright.  He can't stay upright if you don't draft O-Line.  You can't draft O-line without taking some in higher picks.....I think you get the idea.

Where does that leave us?  Well, I think the concerns for Mac are legit regarding QB's....I am not sure he is a great talent at drafting them.  What that could mean is we are going to look at Tony Romo, Kirk Cousins, Mike Glennon, Jimmy G, and all the other QB's out there as our starter, and keep drafting guys in later rounds hoping we find the next Tom Brady. 

I do think it could be a sign we will NOT reach on one of these QB's with a high pick, although do not rule out a WR.  His teams have taken WR's high when not expected. 

If I could lay a bet right now, I think we will be drafting defense first.   Again.

 

[CanadaSteve]

2 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Sorry, but he says every year that he will go BPA. Especially in the first round. Also Mac wasn't the one doing the drafting, so you can't go by what Houston did.

I was giving you an example of how the team drafted the entire time he was there.  I even state that he did not make the picks.  However, it is an indication, especially later on when he was in charge of the scouting, as to where emphasis was placed.  They shyed away on multiple occasions, especially the year they picked Mario Williams over Vince Young, from QB's high.

 

[CanadaSteve]

7 minutes ago, kmnj said:

the above is 1000% false-in the business world if you pay top dollar you can get top candidates to come do the job even when the company is on the brink-it is a money world and guys if paid top dollar will line up for the chance

AAAAAAND what does this have to do with ANYTHING I typed?

 

[section314]

38 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

What has he done here now:

Round 1:  DE-1  LB-1  WR-1  QB-1

Like what happened in Houston, he has drafted Defense first and drafted a WR high, but drafting a QB in the 2nd round is out of character to what his teams did while he was there.

Where are my concerns:

1) HORRIBLE TRACK RECORD WITH QB'S:  Could the Houston Texans inability to draft QB's be a reflection on his talent evaluation at the position? This would not bode well with a team that hasn't had a QB for decades

2) NO EMPHASIS ON THE O-LINE: You can't have a good QB if he can't stay upright.  He can't stay upright if you don't draft O-Line.  You can't draft O-line without taking some in higher picks.....I think you get the idea.

Where does that leave us?  Well, I think the concerns for Mac are legit regarding QB's....I am not sure he is a great talent at drafting them.  What that could mean is we are going to look at Tony Romo, Kirk Cousins, Mike Glennon, Jimmy G, and all the other QB's out there as our starter, and keep drafting guys in later rounds hoping we find the next Tom Brady. 

I do think it could be a sign we will NOT reach on one of these QB's with a high pick, although do not rule out a WR.  His teams have taken WR's high when not expected. 

If I could lay a bet right now, I think we will be drafting defense first.   Again.

 

"With the 6th pick in the 2017 NFL draft, the New York Jets select Mike Williams, WR, Clemson."

[thadude]

1 minute ago, section314 said:

"With the 6th pick in the 2017 NFL draft, the New York Jets select Mike Williams, WR, Clemson."

I'd buy that for a dollar.

[thadude]

Mac cannot evaluate the qb position.

[kmnj]

52 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

AAAAAAND what does this have to do with ANYTHING I typed?

 

did you even read what you typed? you said you DOUBT and you put in in caps that nobody worth two nickels would be willing come here if you get rid of gm after two years....

 

[kmnj]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

First things first: I think it is known that I support keeping him at least one more year.  I do not want to clean the house out.  I don't think we would get anyone worth any value.  Its just like any job; if you keep seeing the help wanted add for the same business all the time, you know something is up.  Well, if you keep changing your GM every two years, I DOUBT you get anyone worth two nickels to apply.

 

there you go and this is 10000% false -pay top dollar and top guys will come and line up to get the job-it happens in business every day and even happened with the jets and parcells

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

What has he done here now:

Round 1:  DE-1  LB-1  WR-1  QB-1

Like what happened in Houston, he has drafted Defense first and drafted a WR high, but drafting a QB in the 2nd round is out of character to what his teams did while he was there.

Where are my concerns:

1) HORRIBLE TRACK RECORD WITH QB'S:  Could the Houston Texans inability to draft QB's be a reflection on his talent evaluation at the position? This would not bode well with a team that hasn't had a QB for decades

2) NO EMPHASIS ON THE O-LINE: You can't have a good QB if he can't stay upright.  He can't stay upright if you don't draft O-Line.  You can't draft O-line without taking some in higher picks.....I think you get the idea.

Where does that leave us?  Well, I think the concerns for Mac are legit regarding QB's....I am not sure he is a great talent at drafting them.  What that could mean is we are going to look at Tony Romo, Kirk Cousins, Mike Glennon, Jimmy G, and all the other QB's out there as our starter, and keep drafting guys in later rounds hoping we find the next Tom Brady. 

I do think it could be a sign we will NOT reach on one of these QB's with a high pick, although do not rule out a WR.  His teams have taken WR's high when not expected. 

If I could lay a bet right now, I think we will be drafting defense first.   Again.

 

The thing about the OL is that you can develop OL from any point in the draft. 

Take Brandon Shell for example. If the OL prospects end up becoming quality OL I don't need him to draft high OL

[Tinstar]

Quick question .  Wasn't Money Mike a scout with the Texans working under a GM ?  If money mike was responsible for the draft there, then why are the scouts not responsible for the draft here ?  Isn't that how it works in this twisted game we're playing ?

[thadude]

Mac's track record with qb's is really bad if he was really involved with all those moves by the Texans.

[thadude]

7 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The thing about the OL is that you can develop OL from any point in the draft. 

Take Brandon Shell for example. If the OL prospects end up becoming quality OL I don't need him to draft high OL

Our OL is not that bad.  I have faith the kids Shell, Dozier, Qvale will develop.  Unlike our two crappy young qb's who everyone loves to blame the OL for not being good.

[Persiussa]

There are plenty of bad gms that come from good orginizations and the other way around. The players someone else picked in some other city is irrelivent. Maybe McCagnan wouldn't have even made half the same choices as the Texans gm. We'll never know. We can only judge him on what he has done here and what he does moving forward. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Ron Wolf for example came from the Jets and won a SB with the Packers

[Larz]

macc wasn't the GM.  he managed scouts

he didn't get near making any decisions

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, kmnj said:

there you go and this is 10000% false -pay top dollar and top guys will come and line up to get the job-it happens in business every day and even happened with the jets and parcells

We will agree to disagree.

After firing two GM's after 2 years, you would have to almost double the income.  And then when you fired that one after 2 years, guess what the starting price would be for the next one.

[CanadaSteve]

6 hours ago, Larz said:

macc wasn't the GM.  he managed scouts

he didn't get near making any decisions

And that is fair Larz....But I think it is interesting, given he was involved from Day One of the Houston Texans, and considering he has been a scout with that team the entire time, to see how The Texans drafted.  I would not make sense that they drafted a certain way with the information he gave them to varying degrees in responsibility, and then he goes out and completely runs a draft differently. 

 

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, section314 said:

"With the 6th pick in the 2017 NFL draft, the New York Jets select Mike Williams, WR, Clemson."

That WOULD be interesting, wouldn't it? 

 

[ASH1962]

7 hours ago, section314 said:

"With the 6th pick in the 2017 NFL draft, the New York Jets select Mike Williams, WR, Clemson."

No chance he gets past Tenn. Him with Marietta?

[Gen X Jet]

"Mac" is a Charley Casserly hack who was given the job because Charley owed someone a favor.

[CanadienJetsFan]

8 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Sorry, but he says every year that he will go BPA. Especially in the first round. Also Mac wasn't the one doing the drafting, so you can't go by what Houston did.

He's been  consistent in saying that BPA in 1st round. 

 

 

[Pcola]

The path the Jets have taken since 2010.  Defense in the first and third round, offensive long shot in round two.  The only exception is Winters, who we took in the third.

Think back to all the long shots in Rd two: Ducasse, Hill, Geno, Amaro, D. Smith, and Hack.  No wonder our offense is the worst in the league the past 6 years.

As far as Houston's draft tendencies, they NEVER found a QB.  They traded a premium pick for Schaub.  

So why we would expect him to identify a legit QB prospect if he saw one is no more than delusional blind faith.

[Integrity28]

8 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

First things first: I think it is known that I support keeping him at least one more year.  I do not want to clean the house out.  I don't think we would get anyone worth any value.  Its just like any job; if you keep seeing the help wanted add for the same business all the time, you know something is up.  Well, if you keep changing your GM every two years, I DOUBT you get anyone worth two nickels to apply.

That being said, I think there are 2 major red flags to be concerned with:

1) His tendencies in drafting.

Mac has only had a job in professional sports as a scout/personnel....that's it. He started with Washington as an intern, went to the World League and the CFL, back to the Redskins, and then finally the Texans, where he spent 10 years as the coordinator of College scouting, 1 year as the assistant director of college scouting, and the final few years as the director of college scouting.  Did he actually MAKE the picks?  No.  But lets look at the tendencies the Texans drafted his entire time as a scout there.

To his credit, the Texans have hit above average on their first two picks in their draft.  Did they botch some?  Of course, every team does.  However, here is how the team drafted positionally in the first two rounds in the 14 years he was there:

Round 1

QB-1

WR-2

T-1

DB-4

DT-2

DE-3

LB-1

Round 2

RB-2

G-1

WR-3

TE-1

DE-2

DB-2

LB-1

Again, he did not make the picks, but a HEAVY emphasis on defense, particularly the line and DB.  As for offense, WR was the tendency, with a pretty good record of drafting there.

 

Mac wasn't their GM, he wasn't their coach. I get being anxious about the state of the team, but there's no basis for any conclusion reached by looking at what Houston did. You can only go based on what he's done here, as the actual GM. 

Drafting marks for him:

• he has taken BPA when it wasn't a need, Leonard Williams, and the value was too much to pass up
• he has done well with later round picks, or at least they look promising, with guys like Peake, Deon Simon, Lac Edwards, Brandon Shell, even Petty as a 4th rounder if all he ever ends up being is a #2 QB, is good value for a QB in the 4th - though the outrage police will probably get wadded up over this
• he has done well with UDFA, or at least they look promising, with guys like Robbie Anderson, Jalin Marshall, Doug Middleton, Howshare and Taiwan Jones
• he has shown that he understands that RBs are cheap, and would rather use $10m of cap space to pay 2-3 veterans, than burning a draft pick on one

Drafting marks against him:

• he has shown that he'll make need picks (especially in his 2nd draft) - taking guys like Darron Lee in the first round
• he has shown that he doesn't totally subscribe to market valuation as a determinant of priority in drafting, meaning he's willing to take ILB or S in the first round, even though those are some of the cheaper positions to pay in FA
• he has shown he will reach on a prospect if he loves the guy (Hackenberg)

All in all, he looks like a GM. He brings a philosophy to the table, but makes decisions within the circumstantial context of the moment. I've said it before, not all of his decisions have been great, but he's done more good than bad. For a rookie GM, that's a relief, when weighed against the past GMs we've had. I truly expect "Mac's guys" to start impacting the outcome of games next year. I figured the first 2 seasons would be a hodge-podge and that there would be a Rex/Tanny/Idzik hangover from the standpoint of culture, discipline and talent. The dent those **** faces made was a big one. 

[thadude]

50 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

He's been  consistent in saying that BPA in 1st round. 

 

 

Which will probably be Mike Williams.