The Jets passed on/failed to acquire 6 of the 8 remaining 2020 playoff QB's this past decade.

[Jets723]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yet you see tons of people in this thread trying to make that hypothetical argument on the other side.

No reasonable NFL fan could watch Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Darnold play and put Sam on that level.  At least not yet.  Surrounding circumstances can contribute only so much.  At some point, when you parse the other variables out, the eye test can separate the QB's on their play alone.  

I’m not taking anything away from those QB’s.  In fact I have admitted how talented they are and deserve the praise.  However I don’t look back in time and wish we got them.  Rightly or wrongly I wanted Sam for awhile.  I admit he isn’t there yet but he also has shown that he has that ability to be a really good WB.  But you gotta help the kid out also.  Its impossible to expect him to carry a team with one of the worst olines along with maybe 2 decent weapons

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Jets723 said:

I’m not taking anything away from those WB’s.  In fact I have admitted how talented they are and deserve the praise.  However I don’t look back in time and wish we got them.  Rightly or wrongly I wanted Sam for awhile.  I admit he isn’t there yet but he also has shown that he has that ability.  But you gotta help the kid out also.  Guys impossible to expect him to carry a team with one of the worst olines along with maybe 2 decent weapons

I like Sam to and think he'll be pretty good here.  But watching all these QBs we could have had win playoff games (and in Wilson's case, a Super Bowl), knowing we were a QB-needy team that easily could have been the ones to draft them, is obviously not fun.  

Personally I think this is KC's year.  Andy Reid is due, and Mahomes is every bit as capable of dominating like he was last year.  And their defense is "good enough".  

[bitonti]

in case anyone is wondering

the moment the Jets passed on Jimmy G for Jace Amaro 

"to give Geno Smith more weapons" is the precise moment when I stopped caring about both the NFL draft, the NYJ and the league in general  

it broke me as a fan 

it was just such a dumb thing to do, in both directions.

It's gutless not to let Geno Smith compete for his job (BECAUSE HE SUCKS)

and the guy they selected was so bad he couldn't hold down a job with anyone, including Andy Reid's 2018 chiefs. 

literally a person off the subway could run a team better than the NY Jets. It's not hyperbole.  

It's almost like they don't care about winning only about staying under cap and hiring cheap coaching and collecting paychecks 

good decisions, bad decisions? Winning? Those things don't matter to the Johnsons. All that matters is treating the team like a piggy bank. 

and if you think Woody is going to let Chris have a good team while he's in the UK you have another thing coming 

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, shevys said:

Or conversely, guys like you have a hard on for Darnold and don't want to look at the bigger picture. 

The “bigger picture” consists of your hopes and feelings.  Nothing resembling an actual fact.

[Jets723]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I like Sam to and think he'll be pretty good here.  But watching all these QBs we could have had win playoff games (and in Wilson's case, a Super Bowl), knowing we were a QB-needy team that easily could have been the ones to draft them, is obviously not fun.  

Personally I think this is KC's year.  Andy Reid is due, and Mahomes is every bit as capable of dominating like he was last year.  And their defense is "good enough".  

I understand BUT again all these teams were already built pretty well when they drafted them especially KC. I’m not making excuses but that is the truth.  I’m not saying Sam is better than them but at the same time he had been in a sh*tty situation his first two years.  As a QB when you know you have a very very short  amount of time to make a decision and have limited weapons that’s gotta be a crazy amount of pressure.  Yes Sam has to stop making those bonehead throws he does sometimes but I think part of it is because he feels he needs to overcompensate.  Once the kid has more protection those mistakes will decrease a lot I think. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Jets723 said:

I understand BUT again all these teams were already built pretty well when they drafted them especially KC. I’m not making excuses but that is the truth.  I’m not saying Sam is better than them but at the same time he had been in a sh*tty situation his first two years.  As a QB when you know you have a very very short  amount of time to make a decision and have limited weapons that’s gotta be a crazy amount of pressure.  Yes Sam has to stop making those bonehead throws he does sometimes but I think part of it is because he feels he needs to overcompensate.  Once the kid has more protection those mistakes will decrease a lot I think. 

Right.  Sam will get better.  But even with KC's circumstances, no chance he would have thrown for anything close to 50 TD's.  Pat could have thrown 15 fewer TD's than he did that year and still led the league.  

Mahomes is special.  Sam.....eh, its really hard to say he's special even when he's played at his best.  That's all I'm saying.  

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

in case anyone is wondering

the moment the Jets passed on Jimmy G for Jace Amaro 

"to give Geno Smith more weapons" is the precise moment when I stopped caring about both the NFL draft, the NYJ and the league in general  

it broke me as a fan 

it was just such a dumb thing to do, in both directions.

It's gutless not to let Geno Smith compete for his job (BECAUSE HE SUCKS)

and the guy they selected was so bad he couldn't hold down a job with anyone, including Andy Reid's 2018 chiefs. 

literally a person off the subway could run a team better than the NY Jets. It's not hyperbole.  

It's almost like they don't care about winning only about staying under cap and hiring cheap coaching and collecting paychecks 

good decisions, bad decisions? Winning? Those things don't matter to the Johnsons. All that matters is treating the team like a piggy bank. 

and if you think Woody is going to let Chris have a good team while he's in the UK you have another thing coming 

Woody is the Max Bialystok of the NFL. He realized long ago he can make more money with a cheap loser than an expensive winner.

[Barry McCockinner]

Teams make the playoffs, not QB's.

[Jets723]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Right.  Sam will get better.  But even with KC's circumstances, no chance he would have thrown for anything close to 50 TD's.  Pat could have thrown 15 fewer TD's than he did that year and still led the league.  

Mahomes is special.  Sam.....eh, its really hard to say he's special even when he's played at his best.  That's all I'm saying.  

But again I’m not trying to say Sam better...at this point.  But when you have a great team around you of course it gonna help much more.  

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Teams make the playoffs, not QB's.

Exactly.  Mark Sanchez went to back to back AFC games.  If you don’t have a good team around you aren’t going far 

[jgb]

I would like to commend @Jetsfan80 for a very strong contender for Thread of the Year in early Jan.

[Biggs]

This thread is spot on.  When you couple it with how badly we actually drafted and the draft capital that was given away for a chance for Mac to draft Mayfield we should all be wearing knee pads and thanking Adam Gase for getting rid of Mac instead of funding embarrassing banners to get him fired.

We got lucky that Cleveland took Mayfield.  Getting Sam was pure luck.  

[jgb]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

I'll take Darnold, thanks.

Hey, Macc, took five years but we finally found a fan who wouldn’t be a better GM than you!

[jgb]

38 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Teams make the playoffs, not QB's.

This is true there are 100 roads to a title but 95 of them start with a good QB. There is a reason so few backup QBs have won a ring. 10 to be exact and 4 of those went on to become HOFers meaning they shouldn’t have been backups in the first place. Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Roger Staubach, and Terry Bradshaw.

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I was fully expecting you and @CTM to rip Chad, and I fully support that.  But I never expected to be called a Penningtologist, even if you were referring to the 2005 version of me, lol.  

It's ok, you at least eventually found the light.  All is forgiven.

Well... most.

[Barry McCockinner]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

This is true there are 100 roads to a title but 95 of them start with a good QB. There is a reason so few teams have won a ring with their backup QB. 9 to be exact and 5 of those are HOFers Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Roger Staubach, and Terry Bradshaw.

Show me the road to a title with a good QB on a bad team.

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Show me the road to a title with a good QB on a bad team.

There are no such things as a bad title winning team thus this is of course a trick question. Of course, it’s a bit chicken and egg since a good QB makes his own weapons and elevates a “bad” offensive supporting cast making them often appear good.

[Barry McCockinner]

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

There are no such things as a bad title winning team thus this is of course a trick question. Of course, it’s a bit chicken and egg since a good QB makes his own weapons and elevates a “bad” offensive supporting cast making them often appear good.

Funny how the supposed goat QB was unable to elevate his weapons and bad offensive supporting cast this year. 

[jgb]

13 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Show me the road to a title with a good QB on a bad team.

 

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

There are no such things as a bad title winning team thus this is of course a trick question. Of course, it’s a bit chicken and egg since a good QB makes his own weapons and elevates a “bad” offensive supporting cast making them often appear good.

But if pressed to give an answer how about the 2002 Pats. Bill Belichick was overheard on the sideline at the end of the game “can you believe we won with this f%#^ing team???”

[jgb]

Just now, Barry McCockinner said:

Funny how the supposed goat QB was unable to elevate his weapons and bad offensive supporting cast this year. 

See previous post

[Barry McCockinner]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

But if pressed to give an answer how about the 2002 Pats. Bill Belichick was overheard on the sideline at the end of the game “can you believe we won with this f%#^ing team???”

2002 Pats won with strong defense, cheating, special teams and an efficient offense. They held the greatest show on turf to 17 points.

[jgb]

Just now, Barry McCockinner said:

2002 Pats won with strong defense and special teams and an efficient offense.

We are actually agreeing you need a good team to win but I will be damned if it’s not infinitely easier to win with a good QB

[jetsjets]

This topic is why I don’t care about our draft position anymore. And it’s not just the GM. This is obviously a organizational problem. And this is just a QB topic. We could write a full book on the amount of talent we passed up for 1 or 2 year(total playing time) players 

[Barry McCockinner]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

We are actually agreeing you need a good team to win but I will be damned if it’s not infinitely easier to win with a good QB

We may have a good QB - would be a lot easier to tell if we had a good team.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So 1/8? That’s the best you’ve got?

I was talking about the 6/8 we passed on. Tannehill wasn’t even part of the discussion.

 

You said a QB can either play or he can’t. Was a general statement I thought. 

And we continue to hear how Tannehill turned out fine once he escaped Gase. 

What about Goff after escaping Fisher?

I tend to agree you either have it or you don’t but system/team situations and coaching do have a huge role in it too. 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

We may have a good QB - would be a lot easier to tell if we had a good team.

Again I agree. We don’t know whether he is good. We merely haven’t proven he sucks.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

You said a QB can either play or he can’t. Was a general statement I thought. 

And we continue to hear how Tannehill turned out fine once he escaped Gase. 

What about Goff after escaping Fisher?

I tend to agree you either have it or you don’t but system/team situations and coaching do have a huge role in it too. 

Goff played one year as a rookie under Fisher. Not much to go on there. Tannehill had two 4,000 yard seasons under his belt (and a third at 3900+) before Gase came along.

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

I'm surprised at how down you are, BG. 

And at the time the Jets played those last 8 games we were significantly worse than all 8 of them.  This "weak schedule" thing is ridiculous because we had an XFL caliber roster out there. 

The goals of the 2018 season were:

1.  New HC, trying to fix the culture, churn the roster, and roll out new playbooks all at the same time.

2.  Young QB, trying to learn his second offense and be validated as an NFL-caliber quarterback in the biggest media fishbowl when his peers were still in USC playing beer pong.

3.  Young defense, trying to live up to its potential under a psycho love/hate coordinator hell-bent on bringing the best out of them.

4.  Win some games and be in the playoff conversation in December.

Well, we nailed the first 3.  And the 4th we were just robbed of because of the ridiculous amount of injuries.  We were an 11-5 team ruined by circumstances we could not control.  And teams we would customarily lose to even when completely healthy-  Cowboys, Raiders, Steelers, Bills-  we stepped-up and took it to them.

You need to get yourself to a place where you can be excited about next season.  The goal was to be the team in the AFC East to take charge once the Patriots fell back.  Here we are.

SAR I

To be clear, I despise Gase (as a coach) with every fiber of my being.  He is quite literally the one and only candidate that I was 100% adamantly opposed to hiring at the time, and therefore of course the one they hired.  An atrocious offense carried around by a defense he had no involvement in while managing some wins against nothing but fellow league bottom-dwellers did nothing to convince me otherwise.  Particularly considering we saw the continuation of the existing trend of players having more success without Gase than with him (Bell and Tannehill being exceptionally obvious examples of that on both sides of that coin this year), and refusal to play superior talent over "his guys" until forced otherwise (e.g., Kalil).

[lounap23]

15 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Question - How well do you think any of them would do if they were on the Jets?

Let me suggest a possible alternative reality where the Jets passed on Darnold, he was taken by the Bills and Buffalo goes to the AFC Championship Game this year.  Darnold gets added to your 2018 scenario about QBs the "failed to acquire."

Snap back!  Wake up from that alternative reality.  Good news!!!! We didn't fail to acquire Darnold....we got him!  All is well now right?

In other words, Russell Wilson ain't Russell Wilson if he's here....Jimmy G is watching the playoffs if he's here...etc.

Perfectly said.  We have a QB that if he was on just about any of these playoff teams would have also got them to the playoffs.  Build the OL and get Sam some WR's and even if we do nothing on Defense this offseason that would probably add anywhere from 2-4 wins.   But for sh*ts and giggles I wanted to see where these playoff teams OL's rank.   The results make it pretty easy to see the problem

KC OL Ranked #3

Bills OL Ranked #15

Eagles OL Ranked #14

Saints OL Ranked #4

Ravens OL Ranked #10

Patriots OL ranked #5

Packers OL Ranked #12

Now 

Seattle was 24th, Houston 25th.   But is there any argument Their Offensive talent overall in the stat positions is much much better

The Titans are the only team with an OL Ranking worse than the Jetss. They are ranked 20th overall and Jets are ranked 29th overall. But their rank in rushing for an OL is 3rd.  Jets in pass protection was ranked 29th and in rushing was 31st.  So the Titans won games, as seen this past weekend, doing what they do best running the ball and playing defense.   Jets OL is good at nothing 

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

What am I missing with the Sanchez reference?

Vick is 2-4 in the playoffs.  Sanchez is 4-2.

SAR I

[jgb]

Just now, SAR I said:

Vick is 2-4 in the playoffs.  Sanchez is 4-2.

SAR I

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yet you see tons of people in this thread trying to make that hypothetical argument on the other side.

No reasonable NFL fan could watch Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Darnold play and put Sam on that level.  At least not yet.  Surrounding circumstances can contribute only so much.  At some point, when you parse the other variables out, the eye test can separate the QB's on their play alone.  

Be upset that we passed on Mahomes and Watson.  Disregard Jackson. 

Jackson averages 11 completions and 139 yards per game, that's half of what the other QB's achieve.  He's a running-scrambling machine that's going to get injured or wear down while the others are thriving in the pocket.

SAR I

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, SAR I said:

In August, you thought we'd go 7-9.

In October, we were sitting at 1-7.

Tell me again how 7-9 with a 6-2 finish didn't meet your expectations. 

Oh, wait.....let me apologize....you were the fan who had us at 13-3, beating the Patriots, and getting a bye, right?

SAR I

I said we'd go about 7-9 and we went 7-9.  I'm dealing in actual results.  You're dealing in a fantasy world where an NFL team suffers no significant injuries, and where you can trade losses for wins based on feelings.  

You still ignored my point about the Bills games too.  If we had beaten Buffalo in Week 1, they wouldn't have ended up resting their starters in Week 17.  Even when dealing in hypotheticals you're not factoring in all the variables.

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, SAR I said:

Don't give me that schedule crap-  the Bills played the same schedule and the Patriots played the same schedule. 

Yep and the Pats went 12-4 and the Bills went 10-6, with the latter locking up a postseason spot just in time to rest their starters against us. 

Only in your fantasy world were we on the level of the Pats or Bills, regardless of how many or few injuries you want to give the Jets in your hypothetical.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Show me the road to a title with a good QB on a bad team.

Name the bad QB's who won titles.  Joe Flacco and.....no one else since 2002, prior to the rule changes.  So we're looking at 1 of the last 16 champions who won with a bad QB.  

When you have a bad QB, he has to be propped up by a damn near perfect roster just to MAKE the playoffs, let alone win playoff games.  

When you have a good/great QB, you're a perennial contender.