The Jets are a team in rebuilding mode.

[PFSIKH]

Seriously!

Playing for 2009 is dumb. There is a 20% roster turnover rate on every team every year.

The key for a good coaching staff is to put the players they have NOW in the best position to win as many games as they can win NOW, and that isnt being done by this CS.

Why?

What makes you think this team is an off-season away from being contenders in the AFC?

If the team's goal is to win a Superbowl.

How is winning 6-8 games this year in the best interest of the club? Versus the alternative of giving Clemens some experience and the FO an idea if he is a long term answer.

This team will be lucky to be contenders in the AFC East by 2009 and that is if they hit on nearly all of their FA and draft picks.

[Irish Jet]

Why?

What makes you think this team is an off-season away from being contenders in the AFC?

If the team's goal is to win a Superbowl.

How is winning 6-8 games this year in the best interest of the club? Versus the alternative of giving Clemens some experience and the FO an idea if he is a long term answer.

This team will be lucky to be contenders in the AFC East by 2009 and that is if they hit on nearly all of their FA and draft picks.

All Im saying is that if we picked up the standard of players you did last off-season (Moss,Thomas,Welker etc) in the right positions.

We would be a playoff team and maybe a SB contender!!!!

[PFSIKH]

All Im saying is that if we picked up the standard of players you did last off-season (Moss,Thomas,Welker etc) in the right positions.

We would be a playoff team and maybe a SB contender!!!!

You would still have no QB.

That is my point.

This team is more then one off-season away from being a contender.

[gangreenman]

This is not a one year fix either, too many holes on this team to expect us to fill them all in one offseason unless we spend wild in free agency and pluck some gems in the draftwho contribute right away.

Next year will be another down year.

Rome wasnt built in a day....

Its going to take time.

Look at the teams still in it in baseball now....

Indians

Rockies

DBacks

... None of them go crazy in the offseason and try to buy teams....They built their teams from the ground up and filled most if not all of their key positions with homegrown talent.

Now if they can keep the players they have these teams can be dominant for a while now.

[JetCane]

Why?

What makes you think this team is an off-season away from being contenders in the AFC?

If the team's goal is to win a Superbowl.

You can have the goal of winning the SB in 3 years without screwing up the team you have this year. We arent one off-season away from the SB, but that is no reason to have uncreative, vanilla gameplans on offense and defense.

How is winning 6-8 games this year in the best interest of the club? Versus the alternative of giving Clemens some experience and the FO an idea if he is a long term answer.

How is losing 12 games this year in the best interests of the team? That makes no sense.

I have no problem with them playing Clemens, and i dont consider games he starts to be automatic losses.

This team will be lucky to be contenders in the AFC East by 2009 and that is if they hit on nearly all of their FA and draft picks.

And if you are correct that "this team will be lucky to be contenders in the AFC East by 2009" that is even more reason to not throw what you have in the dumper this season.

Go with the combinations that work, and if it is Clemens throwing the ball down the field, then play him. If it means trying out Devito to see if he can rush the passer, then play him. If it means sitting barton, who is obviously too old to be playing tackle football anymore, then sit him.

[#27TheDominator]

LOL talk about overexaggerating. Dyson doesnt have to be on the 2009 squad. Rhodes will be like 26 in 2009 lol. Thomas can still be effective at 30 just look at the patsies LBs all over 30. Coles and Cotch will be fine as long as Chad doesnt get them killed.

When you pretend to try and "win now!!!" when you have a poor team thats when you find yourself in the cellar for the next 10 years. You gotta build thru the draft not free agency.

Thomas will have to improve to be "effective."

[gangreenman]

Seriously!

Playing for 2009 is dumb. There is a 20% roster turnover rate on every team every year.

The key for a good coaching staff is to put the players they have NOW in the best position to win as many games as they can win NOW, and that isnt being done by this CS.

I disagree....

If we're actually going to have a good amount of success in the league we're going to have to suffer some growing pains as it will require building.

Winning at a big level is not something that happens overnight...You have to build for it and work for it.

[JetCane]

I disagree....

If we're actually going to have a good amount of success in the league we're going to have to suffer some growing pains as it will require building.

Winning at a big level is not something that happens overnight...You have to build for it and work for it.

So you are happy and content with crappy gameplans?

What has the team done differently this season from last season that leads you to believe they are building?

What changes have been made this season that correspond with growing pains?

[gangreenman]

So you are happy and content with crappy gameplans?

What has the team done differently this season from last season that leads you to believe they are building?

What changes have been made this season that correspond with growing pains?

I am not happy with crappy gameplans and I am not happy with losing. They call it growing PAINS for a reason. As much experience as Mangini has had, he's still young and he's still learning on the job.

We are developing a core of young, hard working, blue collar players and mixing it with some good veteran leadership. The past two years Tangini has brought in players such as DBrick, Mangold, Leon, TJones, Harris, Revis, and has revived the careers of former scrubs Cotchery and Bryan Thomas.

As I said two posts ago, Rome wasn't built in a day...But I havent seen the Jets make a SB yet in my lifetime, so if doing so requires only two or three more bad years, I'm willing to accept that.

[JetCane]

I am not happy with crappy gameplans and I am not happy with losing. They call it growing PAINS for a reason. As much experience as Mangini has had, he's still young and he's still learning on the job.

We are developing a core of young, hard working, blue collar players and mixing it with some good veteran leadership. The past two years Tangini has brought in players such as DBrick, Mangold, Leon, TJones, Harris, Revis, and has revived the careers of former scrubs Cotchery and Bryan Thomas.

As I said two posts ago, Rome wasn't built in a day...But I havent seen the Jets make a SB yet in my lifetime, so if doing so requires only two or three more bad years, I'm willing to accept that.

Well, the part I disagree with is that a team will all of a sudden go from being a bad team, with weak gameplans, sloppy tackling, poor run blocking and predictable playcalling to a SB berth overnight. There has to be improvement, not necessarily shown in the record, but in how the team plays on the field.

I guess what I'm also saying is something i thought about on the way home from the game Sunday: that saying we have to take two steps back from last year is just a weak excuse for the Jets looking like a bad team this year.

[4HCrew]

Why is it that some fans are scared to criticize Mangini and Tannenbaum?

[JetCane]

Why is it that some fans are scared to criticize Mangini and Tannenbaum?

4H, maybe it has to do with so many people buying into the mangenius thing.

So tell me, has there been any game this season where we can say that mangini outcoached the other team's coach?

Or is it true that the jets have been outcoached in EVERY game this season?

[faba]

4H, maybe it has to do with so many people buying into the mangenius thing.

So tell me, has there been any game this season where we can say that mangini outcoached the other team's coach?

Or is it true that the jets have been outcoached in EVERY game this season?

A case will definitely be made that we have been out-talented this year so the responsibility for that goes to the coach and GM that put the players on the field.

[gangreenman]

Well, the part I disagree with is that a team will all of a sudden go from being a bad team, with weak gameplans, sloppy tackling, poor run blocking and predictable playcalling to a SB berth overnight. There has to be improvement, not necessarily shown in the record, but in how the team plays on the field.

I guess what I'm also saying is something i thought about on the way home from the game Sunday: that saying we have to take two steps back from last year is just a weak excuse for the Jets looking like a bad team this year.

Listen, you're not going to get me to admit to being happy about our performance this year...IT SUCKS.

The point I'm trying to make though is that transformations, as you said, dont happen overnight. We hired Mangini expecting to begin the process rebuilding, no one expected us to get to the playoffs last year, but we did. However, that process of rebuilding has still just barely begun. As with any change or process, there will be some positives and some negatives, some signs of growing and some growing pains, this process is no different.

In baseball, look at the Indians, DBacks, Rockies... three teams in the baseball semifinals...

This is the first playoff appearence for all of them in quite a while.

In football look at the Colts, the Chargers (although they suck this year), hell, even the Patriots.

Sure, they've all made some trades and signed some off of FA, but almost all of their key positions are filled by homegrown players.... Thats how you go far in this level and getting to that point is no quick and/or simple task.

I think we need to think about that before you make Tangini our next victims....Winning is a process, let it happen and see where it gets us.

[gangreenman]

4H, maybe it has to do with so many people buying into the mangenius thing.

So tell me, has there been any game this season where we can say that mangini outcoached the other team's coach?

Or is it true that the jets have been outcoached in EVERY game this season?

I dont know, we've been so out-executed that its hard to tell who had the better gameplan.

[PFSIKH]

How is losing 12 games this year in the best interests of the team? That makes no sense.

I have no problem with them playing Clemens, and i dont consider games he starts to be automatic losses.

And if you are correct that "this team will be lucky to be contenders in the AFC East by 2009" that is even more reason to not throw what you have in the dumper this season.

I am not saying the games Clemens would start as automatic losses. Just using the reason Chad is still a starter is that either Clemens is not ready or not wanting to give up on 2007.

My point is this, how is winning 8 games in the best interest of the Jets? It drops them from a Top 5 pick to a middle of the pack pick. There could be a huge drop in talent of a targeted position. Instead of Brohm, you might get a QB that needs seasoning. Or a LT that is ready now, versus one that needs to develop. Winning 8 games will not get you to the playoffs or a decent pick to speed up the re-building process.

Please explain this to me? If your team is at least 2+ seasons away from contending, why do you want to win more now? I would think you want to take the bitter cap cutting pill this off-season to give yourself some flexibility and hit on your draft and some FAs. Then repeat this process again until gearing for 2010 when the Patriots, in particular Brady, will be that much older.

The Patriots do a good job of replenishing their roster. The only place they will have a trouble doing this is QB and LBer. I am not suggesting giving up totally now. However, I am suggesting enacting a plan to be ready in a few years from now when Brady might not be as good as he is now.

[gangreenman]

I am not saying the games Clemens would start as automatic losses. Just using the reason Chad is still a starter is that either Clemens is not ready or not wanting to give up on 2007.

My point is this, how is winning 8 games in the best interest of the Jets? It drops them from a Top 5 pick to a middle of the pack pick. There could be a huge drop in talent of a targeted position. Instead of Brohm, you might get a QB that needs seasoning. Or a LT that is ready now, versus one that needs to develop. Winning 8 games will not get you to the playoffs or a decent pick to speed up the re-building process.

Please explain this to me? If your team is at least 2+ seasons away from contending, why do you want to win more now? I would think you want to take the bitter cap cutting pill this off-season to give yourself some flexibility and hit on your draft and some FAs. Then repeat this process again until gearing for 2010 when the Patriots, in particular Brady, will be that much older.

The Patriots do a good job of replenishing their roster. The only place they will have a trouble doing this is QB and LBer. I am not suggesting giving up totally now. However, I am suggesting enacting a plan to be ready in a few years from now when Brady might not be as good as he is now.

Disagree with this as well....

We need to show signs that we have a future so we're not like the Browns or Cardinals stuck in the dark ages.

[PFSIKH]

Disagree with this as well....

We need to show signs that we have a future so we're not like the Browns or Cardinals stuck in the dark ages.

Granted, but look at the Phins from 1986 to 2005.

One 12 win season.

One 4 win season.

A crap load of seasons were the team was good, but not great and a 6-9 playoff record.

No superbowls.

There is being in a dark abyss and then there is being in a perpetual cycle of going nowhere.

[gangreenman]

Granted, but look at the Phins from 1986 to 2005.

One 12 win season.

One 4 win season.

A crap load of seasons were the team was good, but not great and a 6-9 playoff record.

No superbowls.

There is being in a dark abyss and then there is being in a perpetual cycle of going nowhere.

I think we need to build this team with a core of homegrown guys with the additional FA or trade to complement the young guys....

Thats how every good team in the league has gotten it done in the past.

[ECURB]

LOL talk about overexaggerating. Dyson doesnt have to be on the 2009 squad. Rhodes will be like 26 in 2009 lol. Thomas can still be effective at 30 just look at the patsies LBs all over 30. Coles and Cotch will be fine as long as Chad doesnt get them killed.

When you pretend to try and "win now!!!" when you have a poor team thats when you find yourself in the cellar for the next 10 years. You gotta build thru the draft not free agency.

Rhodes is 25 now... so he will be 27 in 09' my bad... still he then hits a few year window before he will be old and want a HUGE extension if he stays healthy and keeps improving...

Of course Dyson doesnt have to be here... but that now means that cap space and/or a draft pick will be needed to replace him... taking away money and/or picks from other areas of need...

Thomas is not as good as the Pats 30+ year old LB's now... what makes you think he will be when he gets older and slower?

Coles will not be on this team in 09' and if he is I sure as hell hope he isnt #1... Do you really think a 32 year old 5'11" WR is a good #1 WR?

You can only draft so many players a year... and if you dont show that "win now" attitude... good luck getting the Adalious Thomas/ Randy Moss players... and without good FA pickups... you got nothing... these 28-20 year old FA's wont be wasting their tim rebuilding for 3 years...

[JetCane]

I am not saying the games Clemens would start as automatic losses. Just using the reason Chad is still a starter is that either Clemens is not ready or not wanting to give up on 2007.

My point is this, how is winning 8 games in the best interest of the Jets? It drops them from a Top 5 pick to a middle of the pack pick. There could be a huge drop in talent of a targeted position. Instead of Brohm, you might get a QB that needs seasoning. Or a LT that is ready now, versus one that needs to develop. Winning 8 games will not get you to the playoffs or a decent pick to speed up the re-building process.

Please explain this to me? If your team is at least 2+ seasons away from contending, why do you want to win more now? I would think you want to take the bitter cap cutting pill this off-season to give yourself some flexibility and hit on your draft and some FAs. Then repeat this process again until gearing for 2010 when the Patriots, in particular Brady, will be that much older.

The Patriots do a good job of replenishing their roster. The only place they will have a trouble doing this is QB and LBer. I am not suggesting giving up totally now. However, I am suggesting enacting a plan to be ready in a few years from now when Brady might not be as good as he is now.

It goes back to my first posts in this thread a couple of days ago.

The CS has wedged themselves in between not giving up on the season and thinking they are trying to win as many games as they can this season, when what they are doing is just drowning with players who are on their way out.

I do not think the goal has changed from last season of wanting to win as many games as possible while they re-mold the team. That is what they said last year, and I am on board with that.

The problem with your post is that on one hand you are justifying drafting Brohm, but you havent taken a look at Clemens. Are they just going to draft a QB in the first round without seeing what Clemens has? I dont think so, and I dont think they have given up hope on Clemens either.

So play him to see what he can do, even if it means he makes rookie mistakes. Those are growing pains I can live with now that the team is 1-4.

But not playing him, and playing inept defense (I put most of this on Sutton, who is running the defense this year- not mangini) while the team limps to 1-4 on its way to 5-11, makes no sense to me.

If they are going to stick with Pennington and other vets because they havent given up on the season, then why has the team regressed from last year? (I think its because the older guys havent really bought into the system this year, and it shows in their play.)

I'll take 5-11 playing the young guys, but if they are going to play the older, more seasoned guys, then i expect to see better football out there.

[ECURB]

Disagree with this as well....

We need to show signs that we have a future so we're not like the Browns or Cardinals stuck in the dark ages.

SIgns of a great future dont attract top tier talent... they will go elsewhere... and the JETS will never get 12 wins in a season.

[gangreenman]

Rhodes is 25 now... so he will be 27 in 09' my bad... still he then hits a few year window before he will be old and want a HUGE extension if he stays healthy and keeps improving...

Of course Dyson doesnt have to be here... but that now means that cap space and/or a draft pick will be needed to replace him... taking away money and/or picks from other areas of need...

Thomas is not as good as the Pats 30+ year old LB's now... what makes you think he will be when he gets older and slower?

Coles will not be on this team in 09' and if he is I sure as hell hope he isnt #1... Do you really think a 32 year old 5'11" WR is a good #1 WR?

You can only draft so many players a year... and if you dont show that "win now" attitude... good luck getting the Adalious Thomas/ Randy Moss players... and without good FA pickups... you got nothing... these 28-20 year old FA's wont be wasting their tim rebuilding for 3 years...

The thing youre missing about that Pats team is that nearly 98% of their team is homegrown.

Their OL, DL, QB, RB, DB's, and most of their LBs are all homegrown.

Once you have that solid of a core is when you look to pick up big time FA's to cap it all off.

[gangreenman]

SIgns of a great future dont attract top tier talent... they will go elsewhere... and the JETS will never get 12 wins in a season.

haha, ec...

You cant simply buy a team, and you cant rely soleley on FA's to make up a team.

In fact, if you look at any team that has had consistent successs most of their players are homegrown.

[ECURB]

The thing youre missing about that Pats team is that nearly 98% of their team is homegrown.

Their OL, DL, QB, RB, DB's, and most of their LBs are all homegrown.

Once you have that solid of a core is when you look to pick up big time FA's to cap it all off.

98%??? Really?

In 2003 (their 1st superbowl of the run)

32 Players that played for them that season, were drafted by them.

31 Players were NOT drafted by them and were FA pickups.

Dont give me this homegrown BS... its all about the amount of talent you cna attract to your team... the draft is important... but at best you will get 2-4 starters per draft... that would take anywhere from 5-11 years to draft an entire starting team... no injuries... no trades... nobody leaving...

[gangreenman]

98%??? Really?

In 2003 (their 1st superbowl of the run)

32 Players that played for them that season, were drafted by them.

31 Players were NOT drafted by them and were FA pickups.

Dont give me this homegrown BS... its all about the amount of talent you cna attract to your team... the draft is important... but at best you will get 2-4 starters per draft... that would take anywhere from 5-11 years to draft an entire starting team... no injuries... no trades... nobody leaving...

How many of those 31 NOT drafted by them were starters or key players?

If I remember correctily, the only one I can think of is Corey Dillon.

BTW, got a source to those #s?

[ECURB]

haha, ec...

You cant simply buy a team, and you cant rely soleley on FA's to make up a team.

In fact, if you look at any team that has had consistent successs most of their players are homegrown.

Again... I will be kind and say every year you draft 4 starters...

That would take 6 years to fill up a 22 man roster with starters...

You really think that would work? Lets cut it down to 66% starters... it would still take 4 years... you would loose players to injuries... trades... free agency...

and you get stuck in the type of cycle we are in...

[gangreenman]

Again... I will be kind and say every year you draft 4 starters...

That would take 6 years to fill up a 22 man roster with starters...

You really think that would work? Lets cut it down to 66% starters... it would still take 4 years... you would loose players to injuries... trades... free agency...

and you get stuck in the type of cycle we are in...

Hence, thats why it takes time and patience to build a SB caliber team.

Seriously, look at any SB caliber team, a very high %of their starters will be homegrown...

I agree 98% was probably a reach, but you get my point I hope.

[Damaged89]

Obviously you can't build the ENTIRE team through the draft. But the core of elite teams are drafted.

[ECURB]

How many of those 31 NOT drafted by them were starters or key players?

If I remember correctily, the only one I can think of is Corey Dillon.

BTW, got a source to those #s?

All 17 of these players helped make the superbowl possible for the Pats and some are still helping today... and NONE of them are drafted by the Pats...

Joe Andruzzi

Larry Centers

Mike Cloud

Rosevelt Colvin

Don Davis

Christian Fauria

Bobby Hamilton

Rodney Harrison

Larry Izzo

David Patten

Roman Phifer

Anthony Pleasant

Tyrone Poole

Antowain Smith

Mike Vrabel

Ken Walter

Ted Washington

[gangreenman]

Obviously you can't build the ENTIRE team through the draft. But the core of elite teams are drafted.

Exactly....Any good team in almost any sport (other then Basketball, as there rosters are a lot smaller and only 2 rds of the draft), a very large amount of their starters will be players drafted by that team.

[ECURB]

Obviously you can't build the ENTIRE team through the draft. But the core of elite teams are drafted.

Right but if you start rebuilding... you dont get the top tier FA's that are ditching the crappy teams...

You not only need to draft good.... but you need to win games...

The Pats were 5-11 their first year under BB and after that the worst was 9-7 one year before they won the superbowl...

Winning games attracts talent and breeds success... rebuilding and going 4-12 3-13 does nothing good...

[mangenious420]

Right but if you start rebuilding... you dont get the top tier FA's that are ditching the crappy teams...

You not only need to draft good.... but you need to win games...

The Pats were 5-11 their first year under BB and after that the worst was 9-7 one year before they won the superbowl...

Winning games attracts talent and breeds success... rebuilding and going 4-12 3-13 does nothing good...

ecurb do you spend more time on this website or with your girl?

[ECURB]

ecurb do you spend more time on this website or with your girl?

She is at work... I spend as much time as I can with her... trust me..

[Damaged89]

All 17 of these players helped make the superbowl possible for the Pats and some are still helping today... and NONE of them are drafted by the Pats...

Joe Andruzzi

Larry Centers

Mike Cloud

Rosevelt Colvin

Don Davis

Christian Fauria

Bobby Hamilton

Rodney Harrison

Larry Izzo

David Patten

Roman Phifer

Anthony Pleasant

Tyrone Poole

Antowain Smith

Mike Vrabel

Ken Walter

Ted Washington

The Patriots also drafted both their entire Offensive and Defensive lines. In fact the only positions they have significant FA contributions at this point are WR and LB. Billichick loves his veteran linebackers (Hopefully that will bite him in the ass one day) and the wideouts they had were awful (Post Deon Grant, who they drafted by the way. )