Damaged89 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Winning games attracts talent and breeds success... rebuilding and going 4-12 3-13 does nothing good... rebuilding is the process of drafting and signing good players. There are plenty of good free agents going to crappy teams if the money is right and they like the program. Rebuilding=getting better=winning games. It sucks to be a fan of a rebuilding team but thats what this is. Hopefully the guys in charge prove to be competent in getting it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 The Patriots also drafted both their entire Offensive and Defensive lines. In fact the only positions they have significant FA contributions at this point are WR and LB. Billichick loves his veteran linebackers (Hopefully that will bite him in the ass one day) and the wideouts they had were awful (Post Deon Grant, who they drafted by the way. ) Which is EXACTLY what the JETS need to do... but they also need to pick up these types of players along the way... Corey Dillon Rosevelt Colvin Rodney Harrison Larry Izzo Mike Vrabel Ted Washington Keith Traylor Artrell Hawkins Chad Scott Sammy Morris Wes Welker Randy Moss Adalious Thomas Donte STallworth Sammy Morris When you play to rebuild... you dont get most of these key players.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangenious420 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 She is at work... I spend as much time as I can with her... trust me.. :penguin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Right but if you start rebuilding... you dont get the top tier FA's that are ditching the crappy teams... You not only need to draft good.... but you need to win games... The Pats were 5-11 their first year under BB and after that the worst was 9-7 one year before they won the superbowl... Winning games attracts talent and breeds success... rebuilding and going 4-12 3-13 does nothing good... Of course not...But its not all about attracting FA's either. Its about drafting smart and to your needs and scouting the mid-range FA's to find the players that have the skill set to fit with the team. If you can do those two things...Youre setting yourself up well for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Which is EXACTLY what the JETS need to do... but they also need to pick up these types of players along the way... Corey Dillon Rosevelt Colvin Rodney Harrison Larry Izzo Mike Vrabel Ted Washington Keith Traylor Artrell Hawkins Chad Scott Sammy Morris Wes Welker Randy Moss Adalious Thomas Donte STallworth Sammy Morris When you play to rebuild... you dont get most of these key players.. But those players wouldnt be affective if they hadnt drafted Tom Brady, Laurence Maroney, Teddy Bruschi, Asante Samuel, Ellis Hobbs, Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, etc etc.... They started with homegrown and added some middle of the pack FA's that fit in well....in a year or two they had a SB team. Oh, they also had a few cameras, which definately contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 But those players wouldnt be affective if they hadnt drafted Tom Brady, Laurence Maroney, Teddy Bruschi, Asante Samuel, Ellis Hobbs, Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, etc etc.... They started with homegrown and added some middle of the pack FA's that fit in well....in a year or two they had a SB team. Right but here is the issue... We still need another COUPLE of drafts before the Oline and Dline even start to be Solid... We need OG OT NT DE - maybe 2... ellis is getting older... Think how much the Schlegal pick hurt this team... BIG TIME... the NUGE pick too... I love Nuge but he was not worth his pick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 But those players wouldnt be affective if they hadnt drafted Tom Brady, Laurence Maroney, Teddy Bruschi, Asante Samuel, Ellis Hobbs, Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, etc etc.... They started with homegrown and added some middle of the pack FA's that fit in well....in a year or two they had a SB team. Oh, they also had a few cameras, which definately contributed. Brady was pure luck Maroney has shown nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemehl Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 But those players wouldnt be affective if they hadnt drafted Tom Brady, Laurence Maroney, Teddy Bruschi, Asante Samuel, Ellis Hobbs, Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, etc etc.... They started with homegrown and added some middle of the pack FA's that fit in well....in a year or two they had a SB team. Oh, they also had a few cameras, which definately contributed. Notice the one thing about the Patriots and ALL the other great 3-4 dfenses. They are BIG, THEY ARE GIGANTIC. If you are going to draft speed guys, you play a 4-3. We need a whole lot of BIG PLAYER. I Say we draft the 7 Biggest guys on the board. Everytime we pick, take the biggest guy available at LB or DL on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Right but here is the issue... We still need another COUPLE of drafts before the Oline and Dline even start to be Solid... We need OG OT NT DE - maybe 2... ellis is getting older... Think how much the Schlegal pick hurt this team... BIG TIME... the NUGE pick too... I love Nuge but he was not worth his pick... Nuge was on Herm, who had no real plan...Just a bunch of rambles and lies. I agree, schlegal was a big mistake but at least Mangini realized it, got rid of him, and readressed the position this offseason by drafting Harris in round 2. I agree...We should really focus on building up those lines this offseason... After that we're a player or two away on each side before becoming a dominant team. 2009 we'll be a rd 2/AFCCG team and in 2010 we'll make the SB if we stick with Tangini... Im calling it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsMan57 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 There were several NT's available in '06 and '07 who at least loosely fit the mold of a 3-4 NT. They had varying degrees of talent or gas left in the tank, but we didn't even bring in any of the over-the-hill ones to use on short-yardage, goal-line, or obvious running downs. Ma'ake Kemoeatu (UFA) Haloti Ngata ('06 draft) Gabe Watson ('06 draft) Ted Washington (UFA) Sam Adams (UFA) Dan Wilkinson (UFA) Grady Jackson (UFA) Paul Soliai ('07 draft) Marcus Bell (UFA) Now every single one of them isn't "the answer" here & not all are prototypical for the 3-4, but how could they draft or bring in NONE of them with a glaring hole at such a key position? Next year there are some FA's I guess who could work out. Again, they have varying degrees of suitability for the middle of a 3-4 or in actual talent: Albert Haynesworth (probably more suited to DE in the 3-4) Tommy Kelly (same thing) Pat Williams (turns 35 in 2 weeks) Isaac Sopoaga (worth a look; he at least fits the mold at ~6'2/330 & SF plays a 3-4 so it won't be totally new to him; currently a backup on a crap team) Ethan Kelley (see Sopoaga) Draft: (I freely admit I have not seen these guys play; just going by size. Anyone who knows anything about them I'd love to read what you know): Antonio Dixon, Miami - 6'3/335 (junior) - 'cane please fill us in... B.J. Raji, B.C. - 6-1/340 (junior; academically ineligible this yr) Frank Morton, Tulane - 6'3/327 It always did and still bothers me that we passed Ngata and Alan Branch in two drafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Brady was pure luck Maroney has shown nothing Brady was 100% luck....No doubt about it. But the fact is they still drafted him. Maroney was a 1000 yard back last season while splitting with Dillon, if thats not showing something I dont know what is. Anyway, can we move on to another team... I hate praising the cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangenious420 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Maroney has shown nothing But Leon is a feature back? You are crazy ecurb.. THE MAN.. but crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Brady was 100% luck....No doubt about it. But the fact is they still drafted him. Maroney was a 1000 yard back last season while splitting with Dillon, if thats not showing something I dont know what is. Anyway, can we move on to another team... I hate praising the cheaters. 1024 Yards 5.1 YPC while splitting the carries... Guess who KEVAN BARLOW Maroney has shown nothing yet.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 1024 Yards 5.1 YPC while splitting the carries... Guess who KEVAN BARLOW Maroney has shown nothing yet.. Then may I ask what showing something means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Then may I ask what showing something means? Being a solid #1 back for more than one year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Being a solid #1 back for more than one year... In which case its impossible for any rookie RB to 'show something'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 In which case its impossible for any rookie RB to 'show something'? Exactly They can only show the hope of having that "something" there are countless RB's that have 1 good year... it means nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awats Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Sorry, but get used to it. You maroons who felt going 10-6 last year meant we were a playoff contender in 2007 were blind. Take your "Mangini should be fired if he doesnt fix the defense now" bullcrap, and shove it up your a##. 2009 and beyond. Get used to it. Embrace it. What is a maroon? I'm in agreement with you that Mangini should stay. He still has to find a solution to our ineptness. It's heartbreaking watching the JETS, lose to teams the should beat. I've been through times like this before, I'm a Jets Fan since the were the Titans. They'll work on it and find a way. If not this year, then next year. and by 2009 our team will be as good as the Patriots. Then we will see who's a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Ma'ake Kemoeatu (UFA) = Is he actually doing anything for the Panthers? Haloti Ngata ('06 draft) = You want him over Dbrick? This is the guy you can make a case for I suppose. Gabe Watson ('06 draft) = Lazy nothing who is just that. Ted Washington (UFA) = When was he a FA?? He's been on the browns the last 3 years hasnt he? Sam Adams (UFA) = He's shot it seems. You dont just release a guy who can play NT. Dan Wilkinson (UFA) = He sucks. Grady Jackson (UFA) = What is he doing this year? Guy ballooned up in the offseason. Paul Soliai ('07 draft) = He's dumber than a bag of rocks. We already have him on our roster, he's called Sione Pouha. Marcus Bell (UFA) = He sucks too I'd to see them reach out in the draft for a NT. Maybe BJ Raji. Haynesworth could be an option, I guess we shall see what the 2008 offseason brings us. By no means can Drob be the only option at NT in 2008. That is unacceptable baring another offseason of no NT options; there has to be somebody out there we can get in the offseason this year....? But perhaps they should go after a Pat Williams in case they dont find anybody in the draft to play NT. Again, my point was not that these are all elite NT's or even special players. They are what was available & we went with DRob & Womansanto Pope. I wouldn't be so picky as to demand a space-eater who can handle double-teams & still be a playmaker. How about simply a NT who would COMMAND a double-team & not get pushed backwards 4 out of 5 plays? Pouha is hardly the same player as Soliai, no matter how dumb he is. What is he down to now, 307 lbs? If ultra-dumbasses like Vince Young & Donovan McNabb can play QB, I'm sure Soliai can handle the mental aspects of playing NT. Washington was a FA before the '06 season. He was with Oakland in '05. Wilkinson does suck. I'd take a sucky 350-lb NT over a sucky 309-lb NT any day to anchor a 3-4 line. Same with Jackson & Adams. The killer is that NONE of these players were costly. Don't cost a draft pick. Don't command big signing bonuses. If they're even worse than DRob at NT (yeah, right) then you can cut them. But at least make a goddamn effort to bring in this "competition at every position" that Mangini spoke of when he first got here. Ngata was who I wanted before the '06 draft. This is not a hindsight-is-20/20 thing for me. I thought D'Brick was at least a reasonable pick (given what happened to our QB's in 2005), but a NT like Ngata is way, WAY rarer to find than a 292-lb left tackle who must force-feed himself up to 303. Watson, to me, was the most inexcusable among them. Not because he's the best player I listed but b/c we passed him & a cheap rookie contract over so we could select Anthony Schlegel. Arizona's rush defense hasn't been nearly as bad as ours. The 4.0ypc they yield is skewed by a handful of 20-40-yd runs; once a RB gets past the DL the rest is on the LB'ers & it suggests the remaining rush attempts against him don't go very far at all. It's not like their DL (particularly the 335-lb Watson, starting at NT) is getting pushed back every play like ours. Kemoeatu was a young (27 yrs old), mammoth-sized (350-lb) NT with a full-season of starting experience on a top-4 run defense who used a 3-4 alignment. He fit the bill a hell of a lot more than what we've gone with. What does "what has he done?" mean? He's a space-occupying NT. He's not supposed to show up in stat sheets with 80 tackles & a bunch of sacks to justify his value. The point is we were in a beggars-can't-be-choosers situation. A 3-4 team NEEDS a NT who fits the mold. We not only didn't have one, but made between little zero effort to acquire ANY other one. What was the only NT acquisition we've made in two years - 300-lb Mansanto Pussy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Being a solid #1 back for more than one year... Kind of hard to do when you are only in your second season. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 10, 2007 Author Share Posted October 10, 2007 Again, my point was not that these are all elite NT's or even special players. They are what was available & we went with DRob & Womansanto Pope. I wouldn't be so picky as to demand a space-eater who can handle double-teams & still be a playmaker. How about simply a NT who would COMMAND a double-team & not get pushed backwards 4 out of 5 plays? Pouha is hardly the same player as Soliai, no matter how dumb he is. What is he down to now, 307 lbs? If ultra-dumbasses like Vince Young & Donovan McNabb can play QB, I'm sure Soliai can handle the mental aspects of playing NT. Washington was a FA before the '06 season. He was with Oakland in '05. Wilkinson does suck. I'd take a sucky 350-lb NT over a sucky 309-lb NT any day to anchor a 3-4 line. Same with Jackson & Adams. The killer is that NONE of these players were costly. Don't cost a draft pick. Don't command big signing bonuses. If they're even worse than DRob at NT (yeah, right) then you can cut them. But at least make a goddamn effort to bring in this "competition at every position" that Mangini spoke of when he first got here. Ngata was who I wanted before the '06 draft. This is not a hindsight-is-20/20 thing for me. I thought D'Brick was at least a reasonable pick (given what happened to our QB's in 2005), but a NT like Ngata is way, WAY rarer to find than a 292-lb left tackle who must force-feed himself up to 303. Watson, to me, was the most inexcusable among them. Not because he's the best player I listed but b/c we passed him & a cheap rookie contract over so we could select Anthony Schlegel. Arizona's rush defense hasn't been nearly as bad as ours. The 4.0ypc they yield is skewed by a handful of 20-40-yd runs; once a RB gets past the DL the rest is on the LB'ers & it suggests the remaining rush attempts against him don't go very far at all. It's not like their DL (particularly the 335-lb Watson, starting at NT) is getting pushed back every play like ours. Kemoeatu was a young (27 yrs old), mammoth-sized (350-lb) NT with a full-season of starting experience on a top-4 run defense who used a 3-4 alignment. He fit the bill a hell of a lot more than what we've gone with. What does "what has he done?" mean? He's a space-occupying NT. He's not supposed to show up in stat sheets with 80 tackles & a bunch of sacks to justify his value. The point is we were in a beggars-can't-be-choosers situation. A 3-4 team NEEDS a NT who fits the mold. We not only didn't have one, but made between little zero effort to acquire ANY other one. What was the only NT acquisition we've made in two years - 300-lb Mansanto Pussy? I hear ya, sperm. I thought they should have grabbed Watson a couple yrs ago too. If he busts he busts, but if he doesnt he could be pretty damn good. OR at least better than Drob. As for Kemoeatu, what I meant was, how is carolinas run defense? IIRC it wasnt very good last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I hear ya, sperm. I thought they should have grabbed Watson a couple yrs ago too. If he busts he busts, but if he doesnt he could be pretty damn good. OR at least better than Drob. As for Kemoeatu, what I meant was, how is carolinas run defense? IIRC it wasnt very good last year. Without watching Carolina play & really focus on this one player, I don't see how you can say he sucks. Regardless, my point - for the 3rd time - is not that any or every one I mentioned is the end-all of nose tackles. I was merely showing that there WERE players available to us who fit the mold of a 3-4 NT more than DRob. Not one of the rookies was drafted. Not one of the FA's was brought in for so much as a single workout. You see the slim pickings there are for the position? That's why you get one when you can, not when you feel like getting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 10, 2007 Author Share Posted October 10, 2007 Without watching Carolina play & really focus on this one player, I don't see how you can say he sucks. Regardless, my point - for the 3rd time - is not that any or every one I mentioned is the end-all of nose tackles. I was merely showing that there WERE players available to us who fit the mold of a 3-4 NT more than DRob. Not one of the rookies was drafted. Not one of the FA's was brought in for so much as a single workout. You see the slim pickings there are for the position? That's why you get one when you can, not when you feel like getting one. Never said he sucked, just questioned how big of an impact he was making for carolina. I agree though that they didnt bring in a player with at least THE MOLD OF A NOSE TACKLE, and that is disappointing. But whether or not those guys would have actually been good NTs is another question. Although, IIRC they did bring in Grady Jackson for a visit but didnt sign him. They need to find a NT solution in 2008. Or at least an attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Never said he sucked, just questioned how big of an impact he was making for carolina. I agree though that they didnt bring in a player with at least THE MOLD OF A NOSE TACKLE, and that is disappointing. But whether or not those guys would have actually been good NTs is another question. Although, IIRC they did bring in Grady Jackson for a visit but didnt sign him. They need to find a NT solution in 2008. Or at least an attempt. I believe he was only "scheduled" to come in for a visit, though I could be wrong. Met with the Giants upstate but not with us. Then signed with Atlanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Kemeouto is in a 3 tackle rotation in Carolina which will in effect lower your impact plays, tackles, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BwanaZulia Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Rebuilding is done between Feb - July. Anyone who thinks teams go into "2-3 year rebuilding modes" has no grasp on the current NFL or the new era of free agency. BZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drago Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Rebuilding is done between Feb - July. Anyone who thinks teams go into "2-3 year rebuilding modes" has no grasp on the current NFL or the new era of free agency. BZ that should be clear to everyone that has seen more than 3 games in their life. Every year, for the past five (at least) there has been a team to come out of virtually no where and make it to the superbowl or at least a championship game. The jets were sort of that team last year, but the CS did not do enough to improve and the players are now complacent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Rebuilding is done between Feb - July. Anyone who thinks teams go into "2-3 year rebuilding modes" has no grasp on the current NFL or the new era of free agency. BZ It can be done during the season also. You have a QB with 48 career passes. The Jets can start the rebuilding process now and see if he is going to be the future or not by giving him playing time now. While turn arounds can happen season to season, the Jets and Saints are proving this sustained success might take more then one season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Again, my point was not that these are all elite NT's or even special players. They are what was available & we went with DRob & Womansanto Pope. I wouldn't be so picky as to demand a space-eater who can handle double-teams & still be a playmaker. How about simply a NT who would COMMAND a double-team & not get pushed backwards 4 out of 5 plays? Pouha is hardly the same player as Soliai, no matter how dumb he is. What is he down to now, 307 lbs? If ultra-dumbasses like Vince Young & Donovan McNabb can play QB, I'm sure Soliai can handle the mental aspects of playing NT. Washington was a FA before the '06 season. He was with Oakland in '05. Wilkinson does suck. I'd take a sucky 350-lb NT over a sucky 309-lb NT any day to anchor a 3-4 line. Same with Jackson & Adams. The killer is that NONE of these players were costly. Don't cost a draft pick. Don't command big signing bonuses. If they're even worse than DRob at NT (yeah, right) then you can cut them. But at least make a goddamn effort to bring in this "competition at every position" that Mangini spoke of when he first got here. Ngata was who I wanted before the '06 draft. This is not a hindsight-is-20/20 thing for me. I thought D'Brick was at least a reasonable pick (given what happened to our QB's in 2005), but a NT like Ngata is way, WAY rarer to find than a 292-lb left tackle who must force-feed himself up to 303. Watson, to me, was the most inexcusable among them. Not because he's the best player I listed but b/c we passed him & a cheap rookie contract over so we could select Anthony Schlegel. Arizona's rush defense hasn't been nearly as bad as ours. The 4.0ypc they yield is skewed by a handful of 20-40-yd runs; once a RB gets past the DL the rest is on the LB'ers & it suggests the remaining rush attempts against him don't go very far at all. It's not like their DL (particularly the 335-lb Watson, starting at NT) is getting pushed back every play like ours. Kemoeatu was a young (27 yrs old), mammoth-sized (350-lb) NT with a full-season of starting experience on a top-4 run defense who used a 3-4 alignment. He fit the bill a hell of a lot more than what we've gone with. What does "what has he done?" mean? He's a space-occupying NT. He's not supposed to show up in stat sheets with 80 tackles & a bunch of sacks to justify his value. The point is we were in a beggars-can't-be-choosers situation. A 3-4 team NEEDS a NT who fits the mold. We not only didn't have one, but made between little zero effort to acquire ANY other one. What was the only NT acquisition we've made in two years - 300-lb Mansanto Pussy? I couldn't agree with this more. I'm not even one of the guys that's down on DRob. Even if you accept that he's a good starting NT (a stretch I'll admit) how could you not bring in competition? They came into this season with DRob, Pouha and Mosley. There was nobody else. Considering the importance of the position they went with one three technique DT and two JAGs, neither of whom is a classic NT, one of whom has proved more injury prone than Chad. WTF? $10M in cap space and they couldn't have spent a million or so on some fat ****er to try out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BwanaZulia Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 It can be done during the season also. You have a QB with 48 career passes. The Jets can start the rebuilding process now and see if he is going to be the future or not by giving him playing time now. While turn arounds can happen season to season, the Jets and Saints are proving this sustained success might take more then one season. I agree. I think they should bench Chad not because he is sucking, although he isn't playing too well, but because this team needs a huge kick in the ass and taking down the #1 guy is sometimes a huge wakeup call. BZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted October 10, 2007 Author Share Posted October 10, 2007 Rebuilding is done between Feb - July. Anyone who thinks teams go into "2-3 year rebuilding modes" has no grasp on the current NFL or the new era of free agency. BZ Let me ask you a few questions: 1. Do you think the Jets are capable of winning the superbowl this season? 2. Is our current QB capable of winning a superbowl for us? 3. Does this team need massive upgrades on defense and offense? If the answers to the questions are No, No, Yes, then we have to rebuild. Its that simple. Maybe you just dont like the word "rebuild" and thats ok. Call it w/e the heck you want but the status remains the same - this team is a couple years away from truly competing for a superbowl, and thats being optimistic because its banking on Clemens turning into a very good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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