Is this Guy For Real? Herm a "Top Ten Coach"?

[Meddle]

I respect your take as well.

My main problem with the anti-Herm crew is that they focus solely on his flaws and his perceived flaws (many of which I question) while totally (or at least mostly) disregarding what he does well, and the man does a lot of things well.

Sure, we loons, who spend a sizeable chunk of our everyday deciphering each and every peep uttered by the media and the team, will find every inconsistency that emits itself from our team, but we must remember the relative effect of such scrutiny.

We can

[Meddle]

Quick -

Since Herm was made HC of the NYJ...name ONE other team in the NFL (with enough talent to make it) that, when things go wrong, fans/commentators/journalists curse &/or blame the coordinator(s) & not the head coach.

In Miami, it was Wanstadt's fault.

In Seattle, it's Holmgren's fault.

In St. Louis, it's Martz's fault.

In Denver, Shanahan is taking some heat.

With the NYJ, it was always Cotrell's fault or Hackett's fault. And if not them, then it was Bradway's fault. Teflon Herm was always blameless.

Teflon Herm is blameless?

That's funny, because one Herm detractor continually brings up a speech where he blamed himself. Herm has blamed himself for numerous things throughout his tenure.

The media has taken him to task for a bunch of things. He's regularly ripped on this board.

Not sure what world you're living in.

Almost all head coaches are held up to unreasonable levels of scrutiny. Of the coaches you listed, only Martz and Wanny rates as a fool in my book and even Martz gets points for some very innovative offensive ideas. Martz is sort of Herm's opposite in terms of perception. Great at play-calling, but cannot effectively lead men.

Wanny showed what he was about in Chicago and middled at best in Miami. He's not the worst ever or anything, but he had to go (unfortunately).

[Sperm Edwards]

Teflon Herm is blameless?

That's funny, because one Herm detractor continually brings up a speech where he blamed himself. Herm has blamed himself for numerous things throughout his tenure.

The media has taken him to task for a bunch of things. He's regularly ripped on this board.

Not sure what world you're living in.

Almost all head coaches are held up to unreasonable levels of scrutiny. Of the coaches you listed, only Martz and Wanny rates as a fool in my book and even Martz gets points for some very innovative offensive ideas. Martz is sort of Herm's opposite in terms of perception. Great at play-calling, but cannot effectively lead men.

Wanny showed what he was about in Chicago and middled at best in Miami. He's not the worst ever or anything, but he had to go (unfortunately).

I did note that you didn't answer the question. Objectionable as those coaches are or have been, NO ONE blames their coordinators. Only Herm gets less blame than his own coordinators. I'm stll waiting for ANYONE to answer:

Since Herm was made HC of the NYJ...name ONE other team in the NFL (with enough talent to make it) that, when things go wrong, fans/commentators/journalists curse &/or blame the coordinator(s) & not the head coach (or MORE than the HC).

[BwanaZulia]

Add personnel management to that list. You know....the style that gets you into fights with assistants.

NOW HEAR THIS HERM LOVERS:]

How many teams have NOT gotten into the Playoffs and won the Super Bowl? hmmmmmmmmmm?

There are two seasons.

1) Regular Season

2) Post Season

Getting to the Playoffs is a big deal. Go talk to the players, coaches, owners of teams have have not been there for years.

BZ

[Savage69]

everyone wants to compare herm with BB and Parcells, 2 HOF coaches. just b/c his style is different does not make him a bad coach, he does things his way. everyone has their own style and one is not necessarily better than another, the results speak for themselves.

Herm has been a HC for exactly 4 years, with no college or DC/OC experience. His record in his first 4 years is BETTER than BB who as of now is the gold standard. if herm continues to improve and the jets become an elite team year in and year out then Herm's record will speak for itself and the style will be irrelavant. if the jets tank this year then herm will be gone and it won't matter anyways.

Here's what you Guys ALWAYS leave out!! BB went to

a 3-13 Brown Team and IMPROVED it to 11-5 in year 4!

Hermie took over a established Winning Team and did

about the same as Bumblehead Groh! Your own words,

and I quote;Herm has been a HC for exactly 4

years with no College or DC/OC experience.

I have said why a Coach with no college

or coordinating experience was chosen

above a more experienced Coach like Fox

or Lewis!Especially when you have a rookie

GM and Owner! Who would do that except for the Jets??

Tags owes the Jets Big Time IMHO!!

[LionelRichie]

Quick -

Since Herm was made HC of the NYJ...name ONE other team in the NFL (with enough talent to make it) that, when things go wrong, fans/commentators/journalists curse &/or blame the coordinator(s) & not the head coach.

In Miami, it was Wanstadt's fault.

In Seattle, it's Holmgren's fault.

In St. Louis, it's Martz's fault.

In Denver, Shanahan is taking some heat.

With the NYJ, it was always Cotrell's fault or Hackett's fault. And if not them, then it was Bradway's fault. Teflon Herm was always blameless.

Kansas City - they brought in cunningham to replace the DC.

[Savage69]

Quick -

Since Herm was made HC of the NYJ...name ONE other team in the NFL (with enough talent to make it) that, when things go wrong, fans/commentators/journalists curse &/or blame the coordinator(s) & not the head coach.

In Miami, it was Wanstadt's fault.

In Seattle, it's Holmgren's fault.

In St. Louis, it's Martz's fault.

In Denver, Shanahan is taking some heat.

With the NYJ, it was always Cotrell's fault or Hackett's fault. And if not them, then it was Bradway's fault. Teflon Herm was always blameless.

Sperm was any of the above Coaches from the NFL's

minority Coaching Program?? There's your answer!

[Sperm Edwards]

Here's what you Guys ALWAYS leave out!! BB went to

a 3-13 Brown Team and IMPROVED it to 11-5 in year 4!

Hermie took over a established Winning Team and did

about the same as Bumblehead Groh! Your own words,

and I quote;Herm has been a HC for exactly 4

years with no College or DC/OC experience.

I have said why a Coach with no college

or coordinating experience was chosen

above a more experienced Coach like Fox

or Lewis!Especially when you have a rookie

GM and Owner! Who would do that except for the Jets??

Tags owes the Jets Big Time IMHO!!

This always got my goat as well. Citing his inexperience as an excuse. Would you sign (and start) a QB with no QB experience at that level? If you did, and you've seen no improvement in his mediocre performance for four years, would you continue to play him, and justify it by saying other teams have worse records? Ask Jay Fiedler if that's what happens, or do you just get cut/replaced?

If you owned a racing team, would you use a driver who just got his learner's permit last week? Even 4-5 years later, he'd still be in way over his head vs experienced professionals who know what they're doing.

[LionelRichie]

I hope you are not serious about this?

so what if herm doesn't call the plays. Joe Gibbs, an alltime great, called the offensive plays last year. the result, 31st offense in the league. Does that mean gibbs is a terrible coach?

Under Herm the jets have been the least penalized team in the league during his tenure. that speaks volumes of him as a HC and his emphasis on team discipline. This in addition to +/- ratio are his stamp on this team.

[Meddle]

I did note that you didn't answer the question. Objectionable as those coaches are or have been, NO ONE blames their coordinators. Only Herm gets less blame than his own coordinators. I'm stll waiting for ANYONE to answer:

Since Herm was made HC of the NYJ...name ONE other team in the NFL (with enough talent to make it) that, when things go wrong, fans/commentators/journalists curse &/or blame the coordinator(s) & not the head coach (or MORE than the HC).

Your eye is off the ball my friend.

Blame? Blame for what? Herm ought to fire himself? Should he never make changes beneath him even if he thinks he can improve the team? If he was unwilling to make such changes, wouldn

[Meddle]

Hermie took over a established Winning Team and did

about the same as Bumblehead Groh!

Herm took over a team that had missed the playoffs in both years prior to his arrival. Hardly some juggernaut.

We can bicker this all day. I am not convinced Herm is the answer, but he's far far from the dolt many of you portray him as.

The body of work is solid. Sorry - but it is.

[Savage69]

Your eye is off the ball my friend.

Blame? Blame for what? Herm ought to fire himself? Should he never make changes beneath him even if he thinks he can improve the team? If he was unwilling to make such changes, wouldn

[Savage69]

Herm took over a team that had missed the playoffs in both years prior to his arrival. Hardly some juggernaut.

We can bicker this all day. I am not convinced Herm is the answer, but he's far far from the dolt many of you portray him as.

The body of work is solid. Sorry - but it is.

Would you say George Seifert a super Bowl winning

Coach is better then Hermie then??

[stormshadow19]

The bottom line is that Herm is not a good coach. He's not. The proof is in the pudding. He can win all the easy games, the early games... but he can't win the big games. He has little or no knowledge of how offense is supposed to work. He clearly plays favorites, to the detriment of the team. He can't even manage a game. He's not even a good coach. And, very clearly, not a top ten coach.

[Meddle]

[Meddle]

The bottom line is that Herm is not a good coach. He's not. The proof is in the pudding. He can win all the easy games, the early games... but he can't win the big games. He has little or no knowledge of how offense is supposed to work. He clearly plays favorites, to the detriment of the team. He can't even manage a game. He's not even a good coach. And, very clearly, not a top ten coach.

You kill me because up until last year, he was killed for NOT winning the early games even though he beat playoff teams down the stretch.

Have you no shame?

[Savage69]

He demoted Weiss in-season, but that's not what I was referring to. Why is it only coaches? I heard about Herm throwing the kicker under the bus too. Tuna has cut many failed players and some on short notice and that is what I was talking about.

Time to agree to disagree.

Time to agree to disagree?? Fine but you apologize

for Fat Ted by shifting the blame on to TB!! LOL

And Weiss did have his playcalling taken away for

awhile but that's not firing a DC or OC is it?? If

Hermie did that to Hackett could you see Hermie

calling plays???

And changing the subject to players shows that you

have run out of spin!! And of course failed

players get cut!! Look how quick Hermie cut Slo

Mo and Starvin Marvin!!

[bitonti]

BOTTOM LINE - you guys can hate all you want, if Herm was fired he would be hired again in about 5 minutes. His reputation in the league is stellar. Top notch and yes - top 10. Seriously the grass is not always greener. you want Wannsdtadt to replace Herm? Cmon - cause that's the level of the HC hiring pool. There is Belly and Parcells and everyone else. Jets fans had both on the same staff and got spoiled. Herm is among the top 10 of "everyone else" To think otherwise is flat out IGNORANT.

[T-Mac]

And of course failed

players get cut!! Look how quick Hermie cut Slo

Mo and Starvin Marvin!!

Quick? Herm was slow on the trigger there IMO.

[Savage69]

BOTTOM LINE - you guys can hate all you want, if Herm was fired he would be hired again in about 5 minutes. His reputation in the league is stellar. Top notch and yes - top 10. Seriously the grass is not always greener. you want Wannsdtadt to replace Herm? Cmon - cause that's the level of the HC hiring pool. There is Belly and Parcells and everyone else. Jets fans had both on the same staff and got spoiled. Herm is among the top 10 of "everyone else" To think otherwise is flat out IGNORANT.

What your really saying is if one doesn't agree

with Bit their IGNORANT! OK lets go

with your view..Here's 15 Coaches I think are

better! Knock off 6 that you think Hermie is

better then to get him into the Top 10...

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Jon Gruden

Dick Vermeil

Andy Reid

Marvin Lewis

John Fox

Joe Gibbs

Jeff Fisher

Mike Shanahan

Dennis Green

Mike Holmgren

Steve Mariucci

Mike Martz

[mudcat21]

I heard about Herm throwing the kicker under the bus too.

He also blamed Moss for calling timeout with 6 seconds left instead of 4 seconds leading to Hermie having to run another play because he wouldn't trust his Defense to hold with 2 seconds on the clock.

[PatsFanTX]

What your really saying is if one doesn't agree

with Bit their IGNORANT! OK lets go

with your view..Here's 15 Coaches I think are

better! Knock off 6 that you think Hermie is

better then to get him into the Top 10...

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Jon Gruden

d!ck Vermeil

Andy Reid

Marvin Lewis

John Fox

Joe Gibbs

Jeff Fisher

Mike Shanahan

Dennis Green

Mike Holmgren

Steve Mariucci

Mike Martz

Dom Capers is also a much better HC than Hermy. :wink:

[Savage69]

Dom Capers is also a much better HC than Hermy. :wink:

So is Mora and about everyone else..I got

tired of Typing!!

[mudcat21]

Joe Gibbs, an alltime great, called the offensive plays last year. the result, 31st offense in the league. Does that mean gibbs is a terrible coach?

Actually Gibbs was indeed a horrible coach last year. I hope coming back after such a long break doesn't tarnish his reputation.

[bitonti]

BB

Brian Billick

Tuna

Andy Reid

Jeff Fisher

Mike Holmgren

-Joe Gibbs is done. He's a top 10 coach from the 1980s. These days he's an anachronism. Someone who should have stayed retired.

-Steve Mariucci - yeah ok. Why is he so great exactly? He needs to have STUD playmakers at every offensive skill position to even have a chance.

-Martz is an offensive genius but make no mistake his players wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. It takes more than just X and Os to be a great coach.

-Dick Vermeil is a great coach... if the year is 1980! he's done too. DONE! an old ass man that cries all the time. Not as good as he used to be. Should be retired.

-Marvin Lewis is no better than Herm. In fact in a head to head match up the Jets cleaned Marv's clock. He has proven nothing as a HC to date, aside that he can lead a team to a mediocre record.

-Dennis Green - oh yeah what has he done exactly? remember when he started Shaun King at QB against the Jets just for the heck of it? Seriously this guy hasn't accomplished anything more than Herm.

-Jon Gruden got VERY VERY lucky to meet the team in the SB who's offense he created. Talk about inheriting a team full of studs, what has he done with these guys over the hill? Nothing that's what.

-Mike Shanahan - are you serious? This guy drafted Darrent Williams over Justin Miller. This guy spent a first day pick on Clarett! he signed Ron Dayne and Jerry Rice and traded for the entire CLE Defensive line? As a coach he has done nothing without Elway and Terrell Davis. The Jets have beaten his ass heads up in a late season battle with playoff implications.

-John Fox - did you see him go for 2 early in the super bowl? This was a major coaching blunder in the game of his life - yet people still think he is better than Herm - why? If Herm did what Fox did in the SB you guys wouldn't let anyone forget it. He's a good coach but not brilliant.

where does that leave Herm? #7 on the list. You might not agree with what I am saying but the point is that a case can be made for Herman and it's a pretty solid case - how many on that list have made the playoffs as much as Herm? how many on that list have made hires like Donnie Henderson and Dinger like Herm? you guys crap on Herm all the time but it's time to face the fact that there aren't any perfect coaches out there and what we have isn't exactly garbage.

[Savage69]

Actually Gibbs was indeed a horrible coach last year. I hope coming back after such a long break doesn't tarnish his reputation.

Gibbs took over a 5-11 Team that hadn't had a

winning Season since the 10-6 99 Norv Turner

year!! What none of you ever want to admit is

Hermie took over a good Team just like Kotite

did in Philly! He went 10-6,11-5,8-8 and the 7-9

got him fired! Hermie got a extention going 6-10!!

[PatsFanTX]

-John Fox - did you see him go for 2 early in the super bowl? This was a major coaching blunder in the game of his life - yet people still think he is better than Herm - why? If Herm did what Fox did in the SB you guys wouldn't let anyone forget it. He's a good coach but not brilliant.

You lose all credibility right here bit.

John Fox is a top 3-5 HC in the NFL.

He is far superior than Hermy in all aspects of coaching.

And you can say the only thing negative about him was for taking a calculated risk EARLY in a Super Bowl game? Please.

Hell, it's not like he had his QB take a knee and lose yardage to lengthen a kick in a AFC Divisional playoff game.

[dickkotite]

sperm edwards makes a fair point, but that doesnt take away from the fact that shane has some fruity looks..

ok shane, name the top 10 coaches in the league so we can argue more. youll probably find it hard to put herm anywhere past # 14 ish, so if this guy says top 10 (=#10?) you guys arent that far off

btw, any coach with a SB ring as head coach ever tops herm

ill start in no order:

1.bellycheck

2.holgrom

3. fox

4. chucky

5. the fat black guy in AZ

6. parcells

finish it

[Savage69]

how many on that list have made hires like Donnie Henderson and Dinger like Herm? you guys crap on Herm all the time but it's time to face the fact that there aren't any perfect coaches out there and what we have isn't exactly garbage.

How many hired Hackett and Fat Teddy?? Oh wait

TB hired Hackett and Fat Ted because as much

as Hermie was ready to be a HC he was too clue

less to hire his own staff!!

Your a pisser you crap on coaches who took over

Bad Teams and made them Better but praise Hermie

who took over a Good Team and in reality was chosen by Tags!! PC Bit rides again!!

[Sperm Edwards]

sperm edwards makes a fair point, but that doesnt take away from the fact that shane has some fruity looks..

ok shane, name the top 10 coaches in the league so we can argue more. youll probably find it hard to put herm anywhere past # 14 ish, so if this guy says top 10 (=#10?) you guys arent that far off

btw, any coach with a SB ring as head coach ever tops herm

ill start in no order:

1.bellycheck

2.holgrom

3. fox

4. chucky

5. the fat black guy in AZ

6. parcells

finish it

(also in no particular order)

7. Fisher

8. Cowher (I don't know how much smarter he is than Herm, but he did get to 3 championship games and a SB)

9. Reid (hasn't won a SB but he's clearly better than Herm)

10. Gibbs (won 3 SB's)

11. Billick (won 1 SB)

12. Vermeil (won 1 SB)

13. Shanahan (won 2 SB's)

You could make an argument that any of these guys are top-10 coaching material; they're certainly better than our dufus.

I also left out guys like Mariucci & Lewis who inherited an almost insurmountable pile of garbage, 1st-year coaches like Crenell, Saban, & Nolan, and coaches who haven't been in good situations like Turner (who had Snyder ripping his team apart every year in Washington & then inherited a washed-up Oakland team). Also left out relative newbies like Del Rio (who seems pretty good) & Mora (who I don't know enough about, other than shoving a WCO on a QB who can't make quick, short, accurate throws - but then so did Herm).

I'd say Herm is definitely better than Mike Tice and possibly Jim Haslett. I might even prefer him to Martz/Coughlin b/c at least Herm might be willing to listen to someone else's opinion when things are going bad (& his damage might be kept to a minimum with 2 good coordinators). Martz/Coughlin two are crappy coaches who the players despise, yet think they're as good as their mentors. Martz is a fine OC though.

Bottom line: Herm ain't close to being "Top 10"

[stormshadow19]

You kill me because up until last year, he was killed for NOT winning the early games even though he beat playoff teams down the stretch.

Have you no shame?

I kill you? Then, I suppose you can recall the exact times that I specifically killed Herm, right? It's obvious... he can't win the big game. He's not a good coach. With all the proof that has been laid in front of you, you still call him a good coach? What does he do? Seriously... what does he do that makes him a good coach? That he throws his coordinators under the bus? That he does a mean BBQ? That he doesn't know a blessed thing about offense? That he tried a system that clearly didn't work with the personel he had? Lay out the reasons that he's a good coach.

Tom said it best (but just to shape it up a bit better)... he wouldn't be a top 11 coach in the Big 10. Plain and simple.

There's Bellicheck, Fox, Denny Green (that's who you're lookin for, DK), Gruden, Mora Jr., the dude in Jacksonville, Marvin Lewis, Sherman, Holmgren, Gibbs, Parcells, Cower, Fischer, Billick, Reid...

He's on par with Mooch and Martz... and I've stated this before, they're both freakin stupid. Dumber than door knobs. So, your boy ranks with the dumb as door knobs catagory.

[Bugg]

Again, when you ask what "master motivator" is or means or does, you get nothing.

I'll make it easier-point to me the game where Edwards outcoached or surprised anyone-and Marty Schottenheimer doesn't count.

In fairness, Tice and Haslett are worse; Coughlin and Gibbs are done. Which isn't to say Edwards is necessarily better.

Gotta figure that long-term Crennel and Mike Nolan are gonna be better than Edwards.

The big question becomes what happens when Henderson becomes a hot commodity. Because long-term for the good of the franchise don't be shocked when the send Hermie and his pompoms packing for the DC guy that knows football.

[PatsFanTX]

The big question becomes what happens when Henderson becomes a hot commodity. Because long-term for the good of the franchise don't be shocked when the send Hermie and his pompoms packing for the DC guy that knows football.

That scenario could conceivably play itself out next season.

Hendu turns in another top 5 defensive performance, the offense continues to struggle, Jets finish at 9-7 or worse, and miss the playoffs.

Hermie would be sent packing and you got a guy (who has demonstrated performance) sitting right there.

Could happen very easily.

[TomShane]

To sun up the pro-Herm argument:

He's a good coach because:

1) He "hired" Dinger and Donnie, but had no part in the hiring of Cottrell and Hackett. Supposedly.

2) Because he's not a bad coach, per se. Herm is a good coach because Rich Kotite was a bad coach. And Belichick quit.

3) Because he made the playoffs in 3 out of 4 years in spite of be anchored down by Hackett.

4) Because Parcells makes clock management mistakes too, after all.

5) Because it's unfair to compare Herm to coaches that win Super Bowls.

6) Because he was saddled with bad talent around him. Like Damien Robinson and Steve White and Mo Lewis.

[Jetsfan80]

To sun up the pro-Herm argument:

He's a good coach because:

1) He "hired" Dinger and Donnie, but had no part in the hiring of Cottrell and Hackett. Supposedly.

2) Because he's not a bad coach, per se. Herm is a good coach because Rich Kotite was a bad coach. And Belichick quit.

3) Because he made the playoffs in 3 out of 4 years in spite of be anchored down by Hackett.

4) Because Parcells makes clock management mistakes too, after all.

5) Because it's unfair to compare Herm to coaches that win Super Bowls.

6) Because he was saddled with bad talent around him. Like Damien Robinson and Steve White and Mo Lewis.

7) Because it would be racist to say otherwise

8 ) Because players want to play for him and play hard (even though his Godson, or whatever, John Lynch told him to go to Hell)

9) Because he makes good speeches

10) Because the media loves him