Torre Turns Deal Down

[Kidhuman]

Rubbish. Wake up. The Yanks used 15 different starters or some insane number early in the year due to the pathetic signings that the Tampa mafia forced on Torre.....

I actually think its because of the trainer and mishaps that caused the Yankees do dig deep into their minor league system to get starters.

still they made the play-offs and lost because the hitters AGAIN disappeared. It's not like the Indians are getting blasted by the same team that won the AL East either.

The guys who need to own up to the past few post season dismissals are the Captain, Giambi, Sheff, Posada, Matsui etc. What can you do when you send your 19 game winner out and he cant get through 5 innings in 2 starts?

If they came clean and said we want to make a change that's one thing....today was garbage.

The hitters didnt disappear(for the most part), the Indians played small ball and put themselves in predicaments to score runs. Torre did not. If he would have done this in game 1, it could have been alot different as Sabathia was on the ropes early. Torre counts too much on the home run to score runs. You cant do that against the caliber of Sabathia, Carmona, and may other playoff pitchers. You have to make them work and he didnt do it.

The Yankees offered Torre a good contract, he turned it down. Do you think Steinbrenner is going to beat around the bush, if he wanted the guy out, he wouldnt have sat through 10 days of this crap, it would have been done.

[Kidhuman]

I think you are the only person I've seen making that claim... what do you base it on? What did Girardi do to destroy pitchers that Joe Torre didn't?

Let them pitch and not go to the pen after 27 pitches.

[GimmeShelter]

I actually think its because of the trainer and mishaps that caused the Yankees do dig deep into their minor league system to get starters.

The hitters didnt disappear(for the most part), the Indians played small ball and put themselves in predicaments to score runs. Torre did not. If he would have done this in game 1, it could have been alot different as Sabathia was on the ropes early. Torre counts too much on the home run to score runs. You cant do that against the caliber of Sabathia, Carmona, and may other playoff pitchers. You have to make them work and he didnt do it.

The Yankees offered Torre a good contract, he turned it down. Do you think Steinbrenner is going to beat around the bush, if he wanted the guy out, he wouldnt have sat through 10 days of this crap, it would have been done.

The Yanks had 4 hitters hit UNDER .200 in that series and ONLY Cano hit .300. The Yanks also made CC work to the point he was gone in 5 innings. They simply didn't hit and their Ace bombed. I am not a Torre fanatic or Yankee fan but their is no Manager moves to prevent the above.

As for the Steinbrenner part of your post, that may be the most naive thing posted to date on the subject. In fact his comments after game 1 or 2 was probably the most damaging thing he could have done to a team in the midst of a post season series.

Todays contract was simply a childlike attempt to save face against mass public perception that he is in the wrong here. He tried to put the onus on Joe and only the foolish will buy into that.

[Barton]

HALLELUJAH!!!

Thanks for everything Joe **cough*DON ZIMMER*cough**. We'll miss ya burning out the bullpen arms and making clueless in-game decisions costing us games and titles.

Too bad we missed out on Pinella last year. I dont want to see Mattingly get the job, get Girardi in here. If anyone thinks Rivera, Mo, or Po give a damn about this you are crazy. It's all about the money. They'll be back if the Yankees want them back.

[Mavrik]

Some of you Yanks fans (and I emphasize "some")saying Torre is an a**hole are cracking me up. Aside from 12 straight playoff appearances, 9 division titles, and 4 World Series titles, Joe is still s*** right? Funny how people want to hold the manager accountable, but I don't hear word about the General Manager that has made garbage signing after garbage signing of injury-riddled players, and over-rated one year wonders or maybe the Owner that goes after these terrible players and throws his money in all the wrong places. Gotcha. Once you step outside this little dream world of yours, and where fans of the other 29 teams in baseball reside, you'll realize that teams aren't going to win the series every single year.

For a franchise that stresses showing class on and off the field, they sure did show little of it today.

[Maxman]

Some of you Yanks fans (and I emphasize "some")saying Torre is an a**hole are cracking me up. Aside from 12 straight playoff appearances, 9 division titles, and 4 World Series titles, Joe is still s*** right? Funny how people want to hold the manager accountable, but I don't hear word about the General Manager that has made garbage signing after garbage signing of injury-riddled players, and over-rated one year wonders or maybe the Owner that goes after these terrible players and throws his money in all the wrong places. Gotcha. Once you step outside this little dream world of yours, and where fans of the other 29 teams in baseball reside, you'll realize that teams aren't going to win the series every single year.

For a franchise that stresses showing class on and off the field, they sure did show little of it today.

Thank You! Thank you so much.

They won despite Joe is what these guys say. It was a magic formula that eluded them the 20 years before Joe got here though.

[Barton]

Joey 4 rings is gonez1!!11!! omgzz!!! How can we win without HIM!!!??

Doomed. We are DOOMED!!!1!!1!!!

[Bob]

It's official, Barty. You're the stupidest mother****er in the history of the Internet.

[Maxman]

It's official, Barty. You're the stupidest mother****er in the history of the Internet.

Yeah I wanted to say it but I can't. So the personal attack stands. It is up, it's good!

[Mavrik]

Thank You! Thank you so much.

They won despite Joe is what these guys say. It was a magic formula that eluded them the 20 years before Joe got here though.

Put it this way, if Jim Leyland did for the Tigers what Joe Torre was able to do with the Yanks, they would be erecting a statue of his likeness in Comerica Park and renaming the city of Detroit to "Leylandia"

[Bob]

Yeah I wanted to say it but I can't. So the personal attack stands. It is up, it's good!

Well, he makes ridiculous posts about both football and baseball. There just aren't that many two-sport idiots. It would have been wrong to ignore his accomplishment.

[Barton]

It's official, Barty. You're the stupidest mother****er in the history of the Internet.

[Barton]

Well, he makes ridiculous posts about both football and baseball. There just aren't that many two-sport idiots. It would have been wrong to ignore his accomplishment.

Bob, you think you are right about these 2 things:

1. Chad Pennington is a good QB and gives us the best chance to win

2. Joe Torre is God, and cannot be replaced.

You are wrong on both. Carry on.

[Bob]

Does your mommy know you're up this late?

[Barton]

Does your mommy know you're up this late?

OOOooooooo good one. LOL.

[Maxman]

One thing about Barton -- he seems like a good kid. Misguided and disrespectful towards Torre. But he means no harm.

Barton when I was your age the Yankees were in the middle of winning a whole lot of NOTHING. It was fun. NOT.

[Thai Jet]

I think they expected him to take it. 5 million is 1.5 more than the next highest manager (Lou).

You never know with George. This may not be over yet.

Kay just went through the list of George moves -- firing people and then asking them back. Have to see how this plays out.

But SD you may be right -- this helps them because they didn't "fire" Joe. Interesting.

The Sabres did the same thing to Ted Nolan in Buffalo. They win their division and he's named Coach of the Year and they offered him a 1 year deal, no raise I believe, KNOWING he would turn it down. Teddy did indeed turn down that insult and was blackballed by the "old boys network" for 9 years. SD is exactly right, it wasn't an offer, it was an insult.

[anskyruben]

I am the biggest Joe Torre fan you will find. I thank him for everything he did for us. If he doesn't want to take the millions he was offered, thank Joe....now it's time to move on. He was offered a FAIR deal according to what he did lately. The Yankee organization is bigger that one guy. If Blowston can win with Terry CryCona, then we can win with a different manager. We will lose some free agents because of Joe leaving. It's time to rebuild this team. We are looking like the Yankees of the late 80's. Time to suck it up and let the young players do their thing. We built a dynasty from within. Let's let the farm system do it one more time for us. We will experience growing pains.....That being said.....Thanks again Joe. You will always be in every Yankee fans heart. You were the Best.

[Scott Dierking]

So, since the Yankees had the best talent in all of baseball over the last 7 years, and the Yankees failed to win it all, that is Joe Torre' fault, right?

Well, for the last 7 years, the team with the 2nd most talent in all of baseball must have been very happy, for the Yankees under-achieving.

They must have won it at least 5 times, during that string. No? Even twice? No?

You just can't throw hats out there and win, folks.

[Bugg]

So, since the Yankees had the best talent in all of baseball over the last 7 years, and the Yankees failed to win it all, that is Joe Torre' fault, right?

Well, for the last 7 years, the team with the 2nd most talent in all of baseball must have been very happy, for the Yankees under-achieving.

They must have won it at least 5 times, during that string. No? Even twice? No?

You just can't throw hats out there and win, folks.

Which gets to the point. If it comes down to talent and the manager is largely irrelevant-which Billy Beane has publicly stated for years-why is Joe Torre better or worse than any other managers? Why overpay him? And once again, Torre had the sweetest gig in all of sports-if they won, he got credit. If they lost, blame it on pitching, not Saint Joe.Which is nonsense. THe Yankees did not overachieve with Torre, and several times the last few years, they lost in embarrassing fashion.

What also was clear-Cashman wants to get younger and use the players coming through the system. Enough of this "Joe's guys" or "true Yankees". If they decide to move on from Posada and Mo, it's a serious, hard-headed decision. The reason this team has a mess on it's hands is old guys at top pay locked into roster spots like Giambi, Mussina and Matsui. So Torre campaigning all spring training to bring Bernie Williams to Tampa when his GM, rejuvenating the farm system, had Shelly Duncan ready and had refused to pay Bernie for another subpar year was not a smart move. And whiel it may have seemd like no big deal at the time, given how well Duncan played when he finally got in, it shows Cashman knows what he's doing. And that Torre's constant loyalty and "true Yankee" stuff is getting silly.

[JetCane]

Yeah I wanted to say it but I can't. So the personal attack stands. It is up, it's good!

lol

[Maxman]

Which gets to the point. If it comes down to talent and the manager is largely irrelevant-which Billy Beane has publicly stated for years-why is Joe Torre better or worse than any other managers? Why overpay him? And once again, Torre had the sweetest gig in all of sports-if they won, he got credit. If they lost, blame it on pitching, not Saint Joe.Which is nonsense. THe Yankees did not overachieve with Torre, and several times the last few years, they lost in embarrassing fashion.

What also was clear-Cashman wants to get younger and use the players coming through the system. Enough of this "Joe's guys" or "true Yankees". If they decide to move on from Posada and Mo, it's a serious, hard-headed decision. The reason this team has a mess on it's hands is old guys at top pay locked into roster spots like Giambi, Mussina and Matsui. So Torre campaigning all spring training to bring Bernie Williams to Tampa when his GM, rejuvenating the farm system, had Shelly Duncan ready and had refused to pay Bernie for another subpar year was not a smart move. And whiel it may have seemd like no big deal at the time, given how well Duncan played when he finally got in, it shows Cashman knows what he's doing. And that Torre's constant loyalty and "true Yankee" stuff is getting silly.

You don't think they overachieved in 1996? That team was not better than the Braves.

[Bugg]

You don't think they overachieved in 1996? That team was not better than the Braves.

They had a bench of Strawberry, Fielder,Leyritz, Raines, Posada(for a few games) and Boggs. He had a great rotation and the 1-2 Mo/Wetteland combo along with Graham Lloyd. They weren't some little engine that could; they were a very good team.

[Maxman]

They had a bench of Strawberry, Fielder,Leyritz, Raines, Posada(for a few games) and Boggs. He had a great rotation and the 1-2 Mo/Wetteland combo along with Graham Lloyd. They weren't some little engine that could; they were a very good team.

That team did not have a great rotation. Cone only made about 10 starts and Andy was the only reliable starter all year long. Doc had an ERA over 5 and Kenny Rogers\Jimmy Key were okay.

They seemed to put Mariano in the right spot. And Joe gets no credit for the moves that he and Watson made in building that team. They got blasted for bringing in Girardi and that worked out well.

And the bullpen that year was incredible. Yes Mo and Wettland but the other guys (marginal talents) were lights out during the postseason.

My point? 1996 started it all. That built a championship culture. Joe won 4 times. He should leave when he wants to leave.

Can they win it all next year without Joe? Yes -- they have to not have every free agent leave but they are in good shape. I just think Joe gets very little respect for someone who has accomplished so much here.

[uart]

I'd be very surpsied if he manages this season.

No one will pay him what the Yankees just offered him. Not a chance.

Eh. It isn't a matter of how much, but a matter of where. Torre could definitely get an offer to manage in KC.

Can you see Torre managing the Royals? Unless a big-time job opens up, I think Torre will sit this season out.

[TaborJet]

Yankee ownership reminds me of Cuban dictatorship. Castro is ailing, and just when you think we can buy cuban cigars in the states, the power will be turned over to his brother Ramon, who is all the idiot Castro is. Now big Stein's health is declining, and the power shift is going to two more Steinbrenners, neither of whom should have any say in what goes on the field.

I believe there is another reason Joe turned the deal down, but we just haven't heard it yet. I think they wanted to slap the cuffs on Torre, limiting his day-to-day and on-field decision making.

It's nice to see someone in pro sports turn down millions. You hear that Arod?

Well, in a perfect world, Torre would still wear #6 and I wouldn't have to cross the border to buy over-priced, overrated cigars.

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

I think this has been brewing for some time.

Look, Joe is not a great manager. He absolutely sucked in the NL. But for the AL, and the Yanks, he was perfect. And that's not a shot at him or the AL. He kept the clubhouse calm, stood behind his players and relied on his pitching coaches. In the AL, that's really all you have to do. Having said all this, I think he did a great job this year.

To those of you blaming him for burning out the bullpen, what exactly was he supposed to do this year? In April and May, no starter was reaching the 5th inning. You have to find someone to get outs, and he had no one.

If you were going to bring back everyone for another run with the group, you bring back Torre. If you're going to go with kids, you bring in someone else who can manage younger kids. I think it's pretty obvious which way they are going.

Does anyone but me believe that this was a set-up job from last offseason. I think Girardi was told that the job would be his at some point, and that's why he took himself out of the running for the Cubs and Nats jobs. Personally, I think he would be an abject disaster for the Yanks. I can't imagine Jeter putting up with his BS, and all those young pitchers had better start stretching out their arms now if he gets the job.

It's an ugly situation.

[JetsMan57]

You don't think they overachieved in 1996? That team was not better than the Braves.

Just about everybody beat those Braves teams except the Indians. How much better were they? THey didnt have a closer that year and we had two very good ones.

[uart]

I think this has been brewing for some time.

Look, Joe is not a great manager. He absolutely sucked in the NL. But for the AL, and the Yanks, he was perfect. And that's not a shot at him or the AL. He kept the clubhouse calm, stood behind his players and relied on his pitching coaches. In the AL, that's really all you have to do. Having said all this, I think he did a great job this year.

I dunno. In the regular season AL, the manager just needs to show up when he has the players the Yankees give him.

In the playoffs though, teams that rely on the homerun almost never seem to win. You can blame the roster that Joe was given, but Joe Torre's specialty was supposed to be managing egos, he should've been able to get his big-egos to play small-ball -- or at least not come out swinging for the fences every at bat after they fall behind a run or two.

To those of you blaming him for burning out the bullpen, what exactly was he supposed to do this year? In April and May, no starter was reaching the 5th inning. You have to find someone to get outs, and he had no one.

You still can't use the same two or three guys every time.

If you were going to bring back everyone for another run with the group, you bring back Torre. If you're going to go with kids, you bring in someone else who can manage younger kids. I think it's pretty obvious which way they are going.

Ironically, I actually think that Torre was better with a team of kids and washed-up vets. I mean, look at 1996... who was the real ego player back then? Was there anyone who rivaled Gary Sheffield on that team? Strawberry was older and a recovering addict. Same with Gooden. Cone was never an ego guy. Cecil Fielder may have been the biggest ego on the team.

Joe Torre didn't have to manage big egos until later on, and he didn't win championships with egos.

Does anyone but me believe that this was a set-up job from last offseason. I think Girardi was told that the job would be his at some point, and that's why he took himself out of the running for the Cubs and Nats jobs.

...and the Orioles. If they offered Girardi the job, he'd have a real good case for a lawsuit, because it looks like they're going to give it to Donny Baseball.

Personally, I think he would be an abject disaster for the Yanks. I can't imagine Jeter putting up with his BS, and all those young pitchers had better start stretching out their arms now if he gets the job.

Ha. You really think that Girardi is going to manage his own former teammates the same way he managed a group of snotnosed kids in Florida? Come on! Jeter is his drinkin' buddy from way-back-when. Same with Posada. Those guys are tight.

I don't think NYY Girardi will manage the same way as Joe Torre, but he also won't manage the same way as Marlins Girardi.

It's an ugly situation.

[Barton]

The Yankees have organizational limits on younger pitchers innings, Girardi or any other manager would have to accept this before they take the job.

Girardi should get the job. Mattingly seems to be a Torre clone.

[Bob]

Girardi should get the job. Mattingly seems to be a Torre clone.

More wisdom from our middle-schooler. I don't want Mattingly either, but a "clone" of someone who led the team to the playoffs 12 years in a row would not be considered a bad thing here in the sane world.

[madmike1]

LaRussa is still the best option.

[Barton]

More wisdom from our middle-schooler. I don't want Mattingly either, but a "clone" of someone who led the team to the playoffs 12 years in a row would not be considered a bad thing here in the sane world.

Bob, if you are really gonna be an a**hole, I can be an a**hole right back at ya.

If you wanna talk baseball, just talk baseball. Or just go **** yourself. It is that simple.

The ball is in your court.

[Barton]

More wisdom from our middle-schooler. I don't want Mattingly either, but a "clone" of someone who led the team to the playoffs 12 years in a row would not be considered a bad thing here in the sane world.

Yes, because Torre's way has done a great job the last 5 years.

When you make a coaching switch, you switch personalities. That is common sense 101. Herm to Mangini. Parcells to Phillips. Baker to Pinella. etc etc etc etc.

[Maxman]

Yes, because Torre's way has done a great job the last 5 years.

When you make a coaching switch, you switch personalities. That is common sense 101. Herm to Mangini. Parcells to Phillips. Baker to Pinella. etc etc etc etc.

How many of the switches that you mentioned resulted in a World Championship?