Shaun Ellis / Kenyon Coleman

[Sperm Edwards]

Maybe someone who knows the subtleties of the 3-4 a little better than I do can answer this for me. It seems to me that on the opponent's OL, generally the bigger/mauler OT/OG goes on their right side & their more athletic OT/OG on the left. Since Ellis is the lighter/more athletic DE and Coleman is the bigger/slower DE, what is the logic behind putting Ellis on RT's/RG's and Coleman on LT's/LG's? It seems we're going weakness against strength on both fronts. Look at how other successful 3-4 teams (NE particularly with Jarvis Green in, Pittsburgh, etc) have their bigger/smaller DE's lined up.

It would balance a little if, with our current setup, teams were having difficulty running to their left & protecting the QB from the right. Then we'd be lining up our strength against their weakness. But since that's (clearly) not happening, why are we lining these two up this way?

I'm not even convinced that swapping Coleman & DRob would be any worse. I don't observe from inside the practice bubble, but wouldn't any of these formations seem to make a little more sense in terms of talent?

Ellis - Coleman - DRob

DRob - Coleman - Ellis

Coleman - DRob - Ellis

What am I missing (other than Ellis has lined up on the right side his whole career)?

Thoughts?

[KSJets]

Maybe someone who knows the subtleties of the 3-4 a little better than I do can answer this for me. It seems to me that on the opponent's OL, generally the bigger/mauler OT/OG goes on their right side & their more athletic OT/OG on the left. Since Ellis is the lighter/more athletic DE and Coleman is the bigger/slower DE, what is the logic behind putting Ellis on RT's/RG's and Coleman on LT's/LG's? It seems we're going weakness against strength on both fronts. Look at how other successful 3-4 teams (NE particularly with Jarvis Green in, Pittsburgh, etc) have their bigger/smaller DE's lined up.

It would balance a little if, with our current setup, teams were having difficulty running to their left & protecting the QB from the right. Then we'd be lining up our strength against their weakness. But since that's (clearly) not happening, why are we lining these two up this way?

I'm not even convinced that swapping Coleman & DRob would be any worse. I don't observe from inside the practice bubble, but wouldn't any of these formations seem to make a little more sense in terms of talent?

Ellis - Coleman - DRob

DRob - Coleman - Ellis

Coleman - DRob - Ellis

What am I missing (other than Ellis has lined up on the right side his whole career)?

Thoughts?

Actually, if Ellis is considered that more athletic and quicker of the two, then he really must suck going against the bigger, plodding RT's and only have 2 sacks to show for it. Look at how many sacks Strahan has gotten from that side of the line. He's more athletic than the RT, but probably wouldn't do as well on the left side. I think the problem is that we really don't have any athletic linemen.

[Barton]

I see what you are saying. But in a good 3-4 defense, Coleman would be the RE (like he's playing right now) going against the LT because he is not a Ty Warren LE type, who goes against the RT. He's not that large or strong, he's better suited to be a RE like a Chris Canty. Thats more of his body type/playing style.

And I'm not completely sold on Coleman being a fulltime starter either (its hard to tell because the rest of the line sucks so bad), but I think if he's your worst starting 3-4 Dlineman then you should be in good shape. The problem is that right now he is our best starting 3-4 Dlineman.

Ellis needs to go. Drob, obviously.

[Sperm Edwards]

Actually, if Ellis is considered that more athletic and quicker of the two, then he really must suck going against the bigger, plodding RT's and only have 2 sacks to show for it. Look at how many sacks Strahan has gotten from that side of the line. He's more athletic than the RT, but probably wouldn't do as well on the left side. I think the problem is that we really don't have any athletic linemen.

Strahan's on a 4-man line; apples & oranges. Though when Thomas lines up as the RDE with his hand in the dirt, Ellis doesn't really seem to get in there any better.

I see what you are saying. But in a good 3-4 defense, Coleman would be the RE (like he's playing right now) going against the LT because he is not a Ty Warren LE type, who goes against the RT. He's not that large or strong, he's better suited to be a RE like a Chris Canty. Thats more of his body type/playing style.

And I'm not completely sold on Coleman being a fulltime starter either (its hard to tell because the rest of the line sucks so bad), but I think if he's your worst starting 3-4 Dlineman then you should be in good shape. The problem is that right now he is our best starting 3-4 Dlineman.

Ellis needs to go. Drob, obviously.

Players don't just suddenly lose talent at Ellis' age. Is the consensus that he just became lazy after his giant contract was awarded? Used to happen with Fergie.

And I'm probably going too literally along the lines of player weight (and clearly that's not everything), but on paper, I see:

Jets:

LDE = Ellis = 285 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

Steelers:

LDE = Smith = 298 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Keisel = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Pats (w/o Seymour):

LDE = Warren = 300 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Green = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Chargers:

LDE = Olshansky = 309 lbs (a good 14 lbs bigger than Coleman)

RDE = Castillo = 290 lbs (almost identical to Ellis)

Cowboys:

LDE = Spears = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Canty = 299 lbs

I don't ascribe a great deal of significance to a 5-lb difference when you're this size, but it seems we are the only 3-4 team that puts the bigger of the two opposite the LT/LG and the smaller of the two opposite the RT/RG.

Now consider if we put:

LDE = DRob = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

and even that stiff Pouha at NT (or if we had lifted a finger to make an effort for Grady Jackson & stuck him in between DRob & Coleman). We'd instantly have gone from what is (currently) easily the smallest 3-4 front to one of the biggest.

What am I missing?

[Barton]

Strahan's on a 4-man line; apples & oranges. Though when Thomas lines up as the RDE with his hand in the dirt, Ellis doesn't really seem to get in there any better.

Players don't just suddenly lose talent at Ellis' age. Is the consensus that he just became lazy after his giant contract was awarded? Used to happen with Fergie.

And I'm probably going too literally along the lines of player weight (and clearly that's not everything), but on paper, I see:

Jets:

LDE = Ellis = 285 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

Steelers:

LDE = Smith = 298 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Keisel = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Pats (w/o Seymour):

LDE = Warren = 300 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Green = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Chargers:

LDE = Olshansky = 309 lbs (a good 14 lbs bigger than Coleman)

RDE = Castillo = 290 lbs (almost identical to Ellis)

Cowboys:

LDE = Spears = 305 lbs

RDE = Canty = 299 lbs

I don't ascribe a great deal of significance to a 5-lb difference when you're this size, but it seems we are the only 3-4 team that puts the bigger of the two opposite the LT/LG and the smaller of the two opposite the RT/RG.

Now consider if we put:

LDE = DRob = 305 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

and even that stiff Pouha at NT (or if we had lifted a finger to make an effort for Grady Jackson & stuck him in between DRob & Coleman). We'd instantly have gone from what is (currently) easily the smallest 3-4 fronts to one of the biggest.

What am I missing?

You've got a point for sure.

But you cant just look at a players weight or see how big he is and say that he's a better fit at a certain position because of how big he is. It doesnt tell the whole story. For example: Ellis is 285 or so and Castillo might be close to the same weight (or less, who knows), but Castillo was a college DT and Ellis was a 4-3 DE. They have completely different games despite being close in size. Castillo is just a better 3-4 DE than Ellis. Same goes for Warren, Ohsansky, Seymour etc etc

I think the best 3-4 DEs are tall athletic 4-3 college DTs. Guys like Spears, who has had some struggles with the 3-4 DE spot and Ellis who also has had struggles, were both 4-3 DEs in college. While the rest were either 4-3 DTs in college (Ohshansky, Seymour, Castillo, Warren etc etc) or 3-4 DEs in college (Canty at UVA)

And Ellis has gotten fat and lazy in recent years. Even in 2005 as a 4-3 DE, he wasnt doing jack. If you look at some games from him from 2002 to 2005, he ballooned up. And probably not in a good way.

[Scott Dierking]

Just a quick comment, Ellis benefitted greatly from the attention that John Abraham drew. As with any pass rush combo, one feeds off the other.

From the little line play that I have watched specifically, I see Ellis working, and taking on blocks. He is not putting himself out of position on plays. He seems to be working hard.

This neither gets to your original point, nor is truly defining.

I will run away now.

[Gibbon]

Maybe someone who knows the subtleties of the 3-4 a little better than I do can answer this for me. It seems to me that on the opponent's OL, generally the bigger/mauler OT/OG goes on their right side & their more athletic OT/OG on the left. Since Ellis is the lighter/more athletic DE and Coleman is the bigger/slower DE, what is the logic behind putting Ellis on RT's/RG's and Coleman on LT's/LG's? It seems we're going weakness against strength on both fronts. Look at how other successful 3-4 teams (NE particularly with Jarvis Green in, Pittsburgh, etc) have their bigger/smaller DE's lined up.

It would balance a little if, with our current setup, teams were having difficulty running to their left & protecting the QB from the right. Then we'd be lining up our strength against their weakness. But since that's (clearly) not happening, why are we lining these two up this way?

I'm not even convinced that swapping Coleman & DRob would be any worse. I don't observe from inside the practice bubble, but wouldn't any of these formations seem to make a little more sense in terms of talent?

Ellis - Coleman - DRob

DRob - Coleman - Ellis

Coleman - DRob - Ellis

What am I missing (other than Ellis has lined up on the right side his whole career)?

Thoughts?

Could it be because B. Thomas when he lines up on the line, lines up on the left side of the O Line thus providing the pass rush (in theory) with Coleman occupying two linemen on that side?

If it was switched wouldnt we (in theory) have our two best pass rushers on the same side of the line?

Not sure just an idea.

[Stonehands]

Sperm makes a good point because LE's are usually your run stoppers while RE's are usually your pass rushers. I think Ellis is playing there because he has always been a LE opposite Abraham in the past.

[bitonti]

What am I missing?

didn't miss it but you mentioned in the first post that maybe Ellis just feels comfortable engaging blockers from the right side. he's been doing it his whole career - also not sure if switching these players makes that much of a difference.

[bobbyjet69]

Sperm makes a good point because LE's are usually your run stoppers while RE's are usually your pass rushers. I think Ellis is playing there because he has always been a LE opposite Abraham in the past.

Usually the RE is the speedy one and seams to get more sacks than the LE due to the fact that most QB's are right handed and drop back with their backs to them, not seeing the rush from that side of the ball!

[Sperm Edwards]

Usually the RE is the speedy one and seams to get more sacks than the LE due to the fact that most QB's are right handed and drop back with their backs to them, not seeing the rush from that side of the ball!

exactly what I'm saying

[drago]

Could it be because B. Thomas when he lines up on the line, lines up on the left side of the O Line thus providing the pass rush (in theory) with Coleman occupying two linemen on that side?

If it was switched wouldnt we (in theory) have our two best pass rushers on the same side of the line?

Not sure just an idea.

that makes the most sense. Everyone is clamering for the 43, but we are basically playing the 43...we just suck at it. Our two DT's are D-rob and coleman...this is a really ****ty line.

[KSJets]

exactly what I'm saying

The problem is none of the guys on the DL are fast. Bryan Thomas is fast, but he isn't explosive. He can run down plays from behind that are down the field because he has straight away speed, but he doesn't have that burst to get around the corner when rushing the passer. We really don't have any "speed-rusher" which is a huge problem. Maybe Bowens, but he hardly plays.

[Sperm Edwards]

The problem is none of the guys on the DL are fast. Bryan Thomas is fast, but he isn't explosive. He can run down plays from behind that are down the field because he has straight away speed, but he doesn't have that burst to get around the corner when rushing the passer. We really don't have any "speed-rusher" which is a huge problem. Maybe Bowens, but he hardly plays.

I was just thinking of trying to keep opponents to under 150 rushing yards first.

[Irish Jet]

Strahan's on a 4-man line; apples & oranges. Though when Thomas lines up as the RDE with his hand in the dirt, Ellis doesn't really seem to get in there any better.

Players don't just suddenly lose talent at Ellis' age. Is the consensus that he just became lazy after his giant contract was awarded? Used to happen with Fergie.

And I'm probably going too literally along the lines of player weight (and clearly that's not everything), but on paper, I see:

Jets:

LDE = Ellis = 285 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

Steelers:

LDE = Smith = 298 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Keisel = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Pats (w/o Seymour):

LDE = Warren = 300 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Green = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Chargers:

LDE = Olshansky = 309 lbs (a good 14 lbs bigger than Coleman)

RDE = Castillo = 290 lbs (almost identical to Ellis)

Cowboys:

LDE = Spears = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Canty = 299 lbs

I don't ascribe a great deal of significance to a 5-lb difference when you're this size, but it seems we are the only 3-4 team that puts the bigger of the two opposite the LT/LG and the smaller of the two opposite the RT/RG.

Now consider if we put:

LDE = DRob = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

and even that stiff Pouha at NT (or if we had lifted a finger to make an effort for Grady Jackson & stuck him in between DRob & Coleman). We'd instantly have gone from what is (currently) easily the smallest 3-4 front to one of the biggest.

What am I missing?

Sperm in fairness New England have Seymour at RE normally and he's pretty damn big. The Steelers have Keisel now but for ages had Kimo there.

None of it matters anyway, with D-Rob there our end's cant do much anyways.

[124]

Its not only DRob's size, its the style of play he brings onto the field. He is not a run stuffer and you really would prefer your 34 NT to be a run stuffer, not someone who shoots the game, much like Robertson is accustomed to doing.

[PeterNorth09]

Shaun Ellis sucks in the 3-4. If you want Shaun Ellis to be succesful like he was in 2003 and 2004 put him in the 4-3 with a good pass rushing DE opposite him. Let's sign Jared Allen this off-season and go back to a *****ing 4-3.

[flgreen]

The Jets have been playing th 4-3 about 40% of the time.

It hasn't made a difference

[Irish Jet]

Shaun Ellis sucks in the 3-4. If you want Shaun Ellis to be succesful like he was in 2003 and 2004 put him in the 4-3 with a good pass rushing DE opposite him. Let's sign Jared Allen this off-season and go back to a *****ing 4-3.

On pretty much every 3rd down (Passing down) we have both Ellis and Thomas coming off of the edge and neither can do anything. Ellis isn't the player some make him out to be. IMO he is terribly overated.

[Sperm Edwards]

The Jets have been playing th 4-3 about 40% of the time.

It hasn't made a difference

I noticed this a lot as well. We play a LOT of 4-man fronts & Ellis doesn't get anywhere near the QB.

We played FULLY with a 4-man line in 2005, PLUS he had John Abraham drawing plenty of attention on the other side. And he still got to the QB what - two times in 13 games & also got run over just like he's been this year.

He's just a lousy football player at this point. He got his money & he's been below-average ever since. It happens.

[Irish Jet]

I noticed this a lot as well. We play a LOT of 4-man fronts & Ellis doesn't get anywhere near the QB.

We played FULLY with a 4-man line in 2005, PLUS he had John Abraham drawing plenty of attention on the other side. And he still got to the QB what - two times in 13 games & also got run over just like he's been this year.

He's just a lousy football player at this point. He got his money & he's been below-average ever since. It happens.

Shaun Ellis is pretty much the reason i'm sceptical about taking Long. They're almost identical in terms of physical stature and talent, I just wont be able to bear watching our D-line get dominated for another 5 years. We need to get some size up fron so our LB'ers have a chance to make things happen.

[bitonti]

hey SE

maybe you were on to something

maybe mangini reads the board

from Lange blog on NYJ.com

And they're doing it with some nifty new looks on defense against Roethlisberger. One near-sack had Kenyon Coleman at LE, not RE, Sione Pouha at NT, Mike DeVito at RE, not LE, and Shaun Ellis in the normal 3-4 OLB position normally manned by Bryan Thomas

Devito listed 6'3" 298

[drago]

hey SE

maybe you were on to something

maybe mangini reads the board

from Lange blog on NYJ.com

Devito listed 6'3" 298

when i saw ellis at OLBer i was thinking (sarcastically...maybe?) that sperm is Mike T, or westhoff....hmmm?

sperm, what is your real name sir?

[Green DNA]

sperm, what is your real name sir?

It's Sperman, Sperm is just an abbreviaton.

[Sperm Edwards]

when i saw ellis at OLBer i was thinking (sarcastically...maybe?) that sperm is Mike T, or westhoff....hmmm?

sperm, what is your real name sir?

tictac

[Sperm Edwards]

hey SE

maybe you were on to something

maybe mangini reads the board

from Lange blog on NYJ.com

Devito listed 6'3" 298

Occasionally, everyone is blessed with luck.

[bitonti]

And I'm probably going too literally along the lines of player weight (and clearly that's not everything), but on paper, I see:

Jets:

LDE = Ellis = 285 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

Steelers:

LDE = Smith = 298 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Keisel = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Pats (w/o Seymour):

LDE = Warren = 300 lbs (almost identical to Coleman)

RDE = Green = 285 lbs (identical to Ellis)

Chargers:

LDE = Olshansky = 309 lbs (a good 14 lbs bigger than Coleman)

RDE = Castillo = 290 lbs (almost identical to Ellis)

Cowboys:

LDE = Spears = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Canty = 299 lbs

I don't ascribe a great deal of significance to a 5-lb difference when you're this size, but it seems we are the only 3-4 team that puts the bigger of the two opposite the LT/LG and the smaller of the two opposite the RT/RG.

Now consider if we put:

LDE = DRob = 305-310 lbs

RDE = Coleman = 295 lbs

and even that stiff Pouha at NT (or if we had lifted a finger to make an effort for Grady Jackson & stuck him in between DRob & Coleman). We'd instantly have gone from what is (currently) easily the smallest 3-4 front to one of the biggest.

POTWN

except for slotting in Devito for Coleman - SE pretty much analyzed the s--t out of the Jets DL problem and it happened on the field this week. nice work dude.