How the QB affects the running game...

[Sperm Edwards]

OK now most of the "great" football minds here think that starting Chad will cause the running game to suffer for many reasons... (8 in the box) (no deep ball) ect ect

Lets actually look at the #'s... (just a gauge to go by based on a great JET RB... Martin averaged 4.0 ypc)

Over 10 games started by Chad Pennington, Thomas Jones averaged 3.8ypc.

Over 6 games started by Kellen Clemens, Thomas Jones averaged 3.6ypc.

I think this whole blaming the JETS running game struggles being based on Chad starting is BS... its a scheme and personnel issue... Chad was QB when the JETS had the NFL's leading rusher...

I dont think the running game will change much regardless of the QB... and with that in mind the smart choice for Mangini to go with Chad...

He will have big money FA's that want to WIN week one... not week 5 and put up with a learning curve... there is a good chance the JETS get 10-12 wins with Chad as QB this year...

:rl:

This is a prime example of debunking the "stats don't lie" garbage. When people use certain stats to insinuate things that aren't true. First off, I'll preface this with the following statement: Clemens was awful last year. Awful.

I also notice that ecurb has, with great subtlety, re-written who was the starting (or primary) QB in at least two games, though we don't know which. Each QB started 8 games in 2007. Clemens got knocked out of the NE game after 1 (awful) pass, so even though he got the start, Pennington was the QB essentially for the entire game.

It gets better:

Compared to how other RB's fared against common opponents, Thomas Jones averaged 0.23ypc more playing with Clemens than with Pennington.

Huh? Jones averaged 3.6 with Clemens and 3.8 with Pennington. What the hell am I talking about?

They played against different opponents.

Let's take a look at how Jones fared compared to how the NFL as a whole fared against those opponents. Pennington was the primary QB in 9 games; Clemens in 7:

Opponent - Team D ypc - (Jones ypc) - net diff

---------------------------------------------------

With Pennington as the primary QB:

• Patriots 4.4 (3.0) = -1.4
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Bills 4.4 (2.9) = -1.5
  
• Giants 3.8 (2.8) = -1.0
  
• Eagles 3.8 (5.4) = +1.6
  
• Bengals 4.2 (3.5) = -0.7
  
• Bills 4.4 (4.4) = 0.0
  
• Patriots 4.4 (2.1) = -2.3
  
• Titans 4.0 (2.8) = -1.2

AVG = -0.73 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

With Clemens as the primary QB:

• Ravens 2.8 (2.8) = 0.0
  
• Redskins 3.7 (3.8) = +0.1
  
• Steelers 4.0 (3.9) = -0.1
  
• Cowboys 4.0 (2.4) = -1.6
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (3.1) = -1.4
  
• Browns 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Chiefs 4.3 (3.9) = -0.4

AVG = -0.50 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

So they both (with tons of help from their sucky OL) contributed to Jones averaging lower than the league did. But compared to others, Jones' margin of "worse-ness" was greater when Pennington was the QB compared to Clemens by almost a quarter of a yard per carry.

Oh - and with Clemens' sucky QB rating (that stat that Penningtologists love to cling to), and with Jones' gross average allegedly ypc being 0.2 lower, the offense scored about 5 ppg more with Clemens (16) than with Pennington (11) when you take out D/ST touchdowns and meaningless garbage like that last-second TD against the Bengals when we were down by 15 pts with 3 seconds left thanks to one of Pennington's pick-6's that ended the Jets' prior drive.

Now if you wanted to be really fair, throw out one-game anomalies by taking away the best & worst performance. I mean, sometimes the OL just has a good day & sometimes Jones just has a good day; sometimes one (or both) have bad days. That only magnifies the difference: under Pennington, Jones drops to -0.83 ypc compared to the rest of those teams' opponents; under Clemens, Jones inches up to within -0.40 ypc compared to the same. So relatively, Jones averaged 0.43 ypc MORE (compared to how everyone else fared) when Clemens was his QB compared to when Pennington was back there.

Penningtologists just search for any stats that make their golden boy look better than he is. With the logic used in a simple 3.8 vs 3.6 ypc (which isn't even true because he's reversed who was actually the QB in 2 of those games), that assumes all NFL teams have the same quality rush defense. Everyone knows that such a statement is ridiculous to say the least.

This is hardly an endorsement of Clemens, but it is downright damning when you look at Pennington as our option for QB'ing this team. Pennington is terrible. He brings down the passing game, he brings down the rushing game, and he brings the entire opposing defense in to the 10-12 yard deep field the Jets always seem to play on when he's back there.

Pray that Clemens has improved dramatically. Pray hard.

[gangreenman]

Guys, teams stacking eight in the box has much more to do with the fact that our OLine was terrible then the play of the QB or anything else.

Both the running and passing game should be much improved this season with the additions of Faneca and Woody to the OL. The improved defense will help as well since the offense isnt going to be put in lousy positions constantly throughout the course of games like they were last year.

In any event, Im hoping that Clemens can beat out Chad in TC and preseason simply because he is younger and that would mean the franchise is heading in a positive direction. However, with all the moves we made this offseason, we can only afford to start the better player. If thats Chad its Chad and Ill live with it, if its Clemens its Clemens and ecurb will convert to a Pats fan.

[villain_the_foe]

OK now most of the "great" football minds here think that starting Chad will cause the running game to suffer for many reasons... (8 in the box) (no deep ball) ect ect

Lets actually look at the #'s... (just a gauge to go by based on a great JET RB... Martin averaged 4.0 ypc)

Over 10 games started by Chad Pennington, Thomas Jones averaged 3.8ypc.

Over 6 games started by Kellen Clemens, Thomas Jones averaged 3.6ypc.

I think this whole blaming the JETS running game struggles being based on Chad starting is BS... its a scheme and personnel issue... Chad was QB when the JETS had the NFL's leading rusher...

I dont think the running game will change much regardless of the QB... and with that in mind the smart choice for Mangini to go with Chad...

He will have big money FA's that want to WIN week one... not week 5 and put up with a learning curve... there is a good chance the JETS get 10-12 wins with Chad as QB this year...

It's not B.S. at all. Its just not solely Chad's fault, he just contributes to it alot given his limited skills.

You see, Chad Pennington is an accurate QB, but he's not versatile. He cant extend a football field. Even if Kellen is only half as good as Pennington from the 10-30 Yard catagory, he's 100% better than Chad in the 31+ Yard catagory.

You see, no matter how anyone puts it, when you have a O-line like what we had last year then any QB be it Chad or Kellen would have the problems that they had last year. To make a long story short, the problem is this...

Chad was the leader of the team. No matter what, he is supposed to be the glue to hold that offense together. He wasnt able to make a play to save that offense or his own starting position. Because of this everything suffered INCLUDING THE RUNNING GAME.

His lack of passing and leadership made defenses do what they wanted at will. This is why he lost his starting position, outside of him being a big cause of why the running game didnt work.

People would then say "Hey, but what about MR. 4 Yards Per Carry Curtis Martin"? What I would tell them is that, Because Curtis being the stud running back BUT Pennington being the limited QB Curtis made 4 yards yet took about a 20 yard beating everytime he received the ball from Pennington. Curtis was great at getting his yards no matter how many poeple were in the box. Granted, we had a better line, but we didnt have a better quarterback. Question, would Thomas Jones have been able to do what Curtis did in the same position? Probably, probably not. What I could tell you though is that given the fact that Pennington isnt a threat to getting the ball down field and eating up yards ANY RB that the Jets have will have a hard time finding holes in the defense. The best thing to do is hope that they can run pass the linebackers and defensive end over commiting on the blitz/rush and run pass them.

I will say this to Penningtons credit. Though he's not the type of QB that can make plays under constent pressure. If the offensive line can protect him he will not make stupid decisions with the ball. The only downside of Pennington (and this is why I beg for kellen..NOT because im a pennington hater) is that he has two....count'em, TWO rotator cuff injuries. And for a QB that didnt have a rocket arm in the first place, this simply isnt a good sign. We have alot of CB's in the NFL with great recovery speed, and we have linebackers who call defenses, and recognize offensive schemes. In otherwords, if Penningtons arm was what it was in 2002 I would trust him, Given the injuries to an already "not so" strong arm, the best Pennington can do is manage. He cant throw a deep ball and he cant zip a mid range throw with consistancy.

Having Pennington as our QB will Translate in not having a running game and having 200 Million dollars in free agency and drafts go to absolute waste in 08. They HAVE to give the third year young rocket arm in Kellen Clemens a chance. Even if they're wrong with Kellen, they can always draft or pick up a QB in free agency or maybe even trade. But to put pennington in and have yet another losing season and no running game...from a guy who lost his job last year because of the same thing will make the Jets the laughing stock of the NFL.

"All that talent, and dont know how to use it".

So, to answer you. Yes, Pennington was a big cause of the lack of running from the team. I'd say he was about 30% the reason, the O-line was about 60% and Thomas was 10%.

I only give Thomas 10% because honestly, how the hell can you run the ball if there's minimum run blocking and your QB cant alleviate the pressure by completing or atleast throwing very deep passes to atleast give the defense something to think about.

P.S. Oh, as for the "Stats" of Thomas averaging less YPC with Kellen under Center, I doubt that any team would let up pressure on a QB that has 1 year under his belt playing the bench and with no real experience of how fast the pro level is.

This is the perfect year to see what Kellen is made of for YEARS to come! You give him a line that can protect him to allow him to get into a grove. Get a true feel of the game, a true feel of HIMSELF on the pro level. Grow some confidence. If we get Kellen in there, and they protect him and the run game picks up yards, and he's able to throw the ball then im telling you...we have our QB AND our RB. We CAN go to the superbowl with this team I believe between now and 3 years.

[villain_the_foe]

I would love Clemens to beat out Chad in camp but does anyone seriously see that happening???

Mangini clearly loves Pennington and IMO seems to have a problem with KC, otherwise he definetly would have turned to Clemens much earlier last season.

If he "Loves" pennington he must love the Jets more because he sat him down last season because he was under acheiving. my question to you is....what makes you think Mangini is in love with Pennington?

[villain_the_foe]

The point is Clemens isnt any better at this point and the JETS have a playoff caliber team....

How do you figure this? Chad's been doing this for years and lost his Job. Kellen came in to a team not built for him, a line that was trashed, a WR that dropped numerous passes from him....TOUCHDOWN PASSES I MIGHT ADD, BOBBLED BALLS IN THE ENDZONE ETC., as well as other things that I wont bother mentioning because you, like me know this information.

Kellen has a chance at a fresh season, a situation where he can know that this is HIS TEAM from preseason. to build a chemistry etc.

If you or anyone else can deeply criticize Kellen after a half season then yall should be ready to kill Chad then. If not then all I can say is that it seems like hate for Kellen because of a love for Chad.

Dont you agree?

[NJ]

:rl:

This is a prime example of debunking the "stats don't lie" garbage. When people use certain stats to insinuate things that aren't true. First off, I'll preface this with the following statement: Clemens was awful last year. Awful.

I also notice that ecurb has, with great subtlety, re-written who was the starting (or primary) QB in at least two games, though we don't know which. Each QB started 8 games in 2007. Clemens got knocked out of the NE game after 1 (awful) pass, so even though he got the start, Pennington was the QB essentially for the entire game.

It gets better:

Compared to how other RB's fared against common opponents, Thomas Jones averaged 0.23ypc more playing with Clemens than with Pennington.

Huh? Jones averaged 3.6 with Clemens and 3.8 with Pennington. What the hell am I talking about?

They played against different opponents.

Let's take a look at how Jones fared compared to how the NFL as a whole fared against those opponents. Pennington was the primary QB in 9 games; Clemens in 7:

Opponent - Team D ypc - (Jones ypc) - net diff

---------------------------------------------------

With Pennington as the primary QB:

• Patriots 4.4 (3.0) = -1.4
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Bills 4.4 (2.9) = -1.5
  
• Giants 3.8 (2.8) = -1.0
  
• Eagles 3.8 (5.4) = +1.6
  
• Bengals 4.2 (3.5) = -0.7
  
• Bills 4.4 (4.4) = 0.0
  
• Patriots 4.4 (2.1) = -2.3
  
• Titans 4.0 (2.8) = -1.2

AVG = -0.73 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

With Clemens as the primary QB:

• Ravens 2.8 (2.8) = 0.0
  
• Redskins 3.7 (3.8) = +0.1
  
• Steelers 4.0 (3.9) = -0.1
  
• Cowboys 4.0 (2.4) = -1.6
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (3.1) = -1.4
  
• Browns 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Chiefs 4.3 (3.9) = -0.4

AVG = -0.50 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

So they both (with tons of help from their sucky OL) contributed to Jones averaging lower than the league did. But compared to others, Jones' margin of "worse-ness" was greater when Pennington was the QB compared to Clemens by almost a quarter of a yard per carry.

Oh - and with Clemens' sucky QB rating (that stat that Penningtologists love to cling to), and with Jones' gross average allegedly ypc being 0.2 lower, the offense scored about 5 ppg more with Clemens (16) than with Pennington (11) when you take out D/ST touchdowns and meaningless garbage like that last-second TD against the Bengals when we were down by 15 pts with 3 seconds left thanks to one of Pennington's pick-6's that ended the Jets' prior drive.

Now if you wanted to be really fair, throw out one-game anomalies by taking away the best & worst performance. I mean, sometimes the OL just has a good day & sometimes Jones just has a good day; sometimes one (or both) have bad days. That only magnifies the difference: under Pennington, Jones drops to -0.83 ypc compared to the rest of those teams' opponents; under Clemens, Jones inches up to within -0.40 ypc compared to the same. So relatively, Jones averaged 0.43 ypc MORE (compared to how everyone else fared) when Clemens was his QB compared to when Pennington was back there.

Penningtologists just search for any stats that make their golden boy look better than he is. With the logic used in a simple 3.8 vs 3.6 ypc (which isn't even true because he's reversed who was actually the QB in 2 of those games), that assumes all NFL teams have the same quality rush defense. Everyone knows that such a statement is ridiculous to say the least.

This is hardly an endorsement of Clemens, but it is downright damning when you look at Pennington as our option for QB'ing this team. Pennington is terrible. He brings down the passing game, he brings down the rushing game, and he brings the entire opposing defense in to the 10-12 yard deep field the Jets always seem to play on when he's back there.

Pray that Clemens has improved dramatically. Pray hard.

Well one thing is better so far this year - when you throw enough facts at the Chad skippy whippers - they go away or at least get quiet. Last year it didnt matter how many facts somebody put up exposing this fraud - it just seemed to fire up their fantasy even more. Continuous improvement - good stuff;)

[124]

:rl:

This is a prime example of debunking the "stats don't lie" garbage. When people use certain stats to insinuate things that aren't true. First off, I'll preface this with the following statement: Clemens was awful last year. Awful.

I also notice that ecurb has, with great subtlety, re-written who was the starting (or primary) QB in at least two games, though we don't know which. Each QB started 8 games in 2007. Clemens got knocked out of the NE game after 1 (awful) pass, so even though he got the start, Pennington was the QB essentially for the entire game.

It gets better:

Compared to how other RB's fared against common opponents, Thomas Jones averaged 0.23ypc more playing with Clemens than with Pennington.

Huh? Jones averaged 3.6 with Clemens and 3.8 with Pennington. What the hell am I talking about?

They played against different opponents.

Let's take a look at how Jones fared compared to how the NFL as a whole fared against those opponents. Pennington was the primary QB in 9 games; Clemens in 7:

Opponent - Team D ypc - (Jones ypc) - net diff

---------------------------------------------------

With Pennington as the primary QB:

• Patriots 4.4 (3.0) = -1.4
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Bills 4.4 (2.9) = -1.5
  
• Giants 3.8 (2.8) = -1.0
  
• Eagles 3.8 (5.4) = +1.6
  
• Bengals 4.2 (3.5) = -0.7
  
• Bills 4.4 (4.4) = 0.0
  
• Patriots 4.4 (2.1) = -2.3
  
• Titans 4.0 (2.8) = -1.2

AVG = -0.73 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

With Clemens as the primary QB:

• Ravens 2.8 (2.8) = 0.0
  
• Redskins 3.7 (3.8) = +0.1
  
• Steelers 4.0 (3.9) = -0.1
  
• Cowboys 4.0 (2.4) = -1.6
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (3.1) = -1.4
  
• Browns 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Chiefs 4.3 (3.9) = -0.4

AVG = -0.50 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

So they both (with tons of help from their sucky OL) contributed to Jones averaging lower than the league did. But compared to others, Jones' margin of "worse-ness" was greater when Pennington was the QB compared to Clemens by almost a quarter of a yard per carry.

Oh - and with Clemens' sucky QB rating (that stat that Penningtologists love to cling to), and with Jones' gross average allegedly ypc being 0.2 lower, the offense scored about 5 ppg more with Clemens (16) than with Pennington (11) when you take out D/ST touchdowns and meaningless garbage like that last-second TD against the Bengals when we were down by 15 pts with 3 seconds left thanks to one of Pennington's pick-6's that ended the Jets' prior drive.

Now if you wanted to be really fair, throw out one-game anomalies by taking away the best & worst performance. I mean, sometimes the OL just has a good day & sometimes Jones just has a good day; sometimes one (or both) have bad days. That only magnifies the difference: under Pennington, Jones drops to -0.83 ypc compared to the rest of those teams' opponents; under Clemens, Jones inches up to within -0.40 ypc compared to the same. So relatively, Jones averaged 0.43 ypc MORE (compared to how everyone else fared) when Clemens was his QB compared to when Pennington was back there.

Penningtologists just search for any stats that make their golden boy look better than he is. With the logic used in a simple 3.8 vs 3.6 ypc (which isn't even true because he's reversed who was actually the QB in 2 of those games), that assumes all NFL teams have the same quality rush defense. Everyone knows that such a statement is ridiculous to say the least.

This is hardly an endorsement of Clemens, but it is downright damning when you look at Pennington as our option for QB'ing this team. Pennington is terrible. He brings down the passing game, he brings down the rushing game, and he brings the entire opposing defense in to the 10-12 yard deep field the Jets always seem to play on when he's back there.

Pray that Clemens has improved dramatically. Pray hard.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone so owned before on this website.

Bravo Sperm, bravo!

POTY (Post of the YEAR!) Nomination.

[PeterNorth09]

Chad Pennington didn't seem to hurt the running game all those years when Curtis Martin was getting 1,000 yards including 2004 when he led the AFC in rushing.

Anyone who blames Chad for the lack of a running game last couple years is neglecting the fact that the offensive line has has absolutely stunk and the RB's in the backfield, aside from Leon, have stunk too.

[ECURB]

How does he KNOW this based on Chad horrible play of last year?

I said with a good team... they didnt have that last year...

[ECURB]

The simple fact here is... all of those people who thought the running game sucked becuase of QB play are wrong... it sucked becuase of the Oline and lack of RB talent...

I didnt want to turn this into a kellen vs chad thread... more of a blaming the bad running game on the RB and Oline...

[Boozer76]

The simple fact here is... all of those people who thought the running game sucked becuase of QB play are wrong... it sucked becuase of the Oline and lack of RB talent...

I didnt want to turn this into a kellen vs chad thread... more of a blaming the bad running game on the RB and Oline...

Fall back men, fall back!!! Retreat, retreat!!!!

Go sell a car numnuts.

[Vudu]

LOL!!!

[jetfuel]

OK now most of the "great" football minds here think that starting Chad will cause the running game to suffer for many reasons... (8 in the box) (no deep ball) ect ect

Lets actually look at the #'s... (just a gauge to go by based on a great JET RB... Martin averaged 4.0 ypc)

Over 10 games started by Chad Pennington, Thomas Jones averaged 3.8ypc.

Over 6 games started by Kellen Clemens, Thomas Jones averaged 3.6ypc.

I think this whole blaming the JETS running game struggles being based on Chad starting is BS... its a scheme and personnel issue... Chad was QB when the JETS had the NFL's leading rusher...

I dont think the running game will change much regardless of the QB... and with that in mind the smart choice for Mangini to go with Chad...

He will have big money FA's that want to WIN week one... not week 5 and put up with a learning curve... there is a good chance the JETS get 10-12 wins with Chad as QB this year...

Chad will win the job and we won't have to talk about all this nonsense anymore. I laugh at the notion that they would just hand the team over to Kellen "deer in the headlights" Clemens after what he showed last year. If he can win the job I'm fine with that but I fully expect Chad to be the starter this year with the moves they have made.

[Gainzo]

OK now most of the "great" football minds here think that starting Chad will cause the running game to suffer for many reasons... (8 in the box) (no deep ball) ect ect

Lets actually look at the #'s... (just a gauge to go by based on a great JET RB... Martin averaged 4.0 ypc)

Over 10 games started by Chad Pennington, Thomas Jones averaged 3.8ypc.

Over 6 games started by Kellen Clemens, Thomas Jones averaged 3.6ypc.

I think this whole blaming the JETS running game struggles being based on Chad starting is BS... its a scheme and personnel issue... Chad was QB when the JETS had the NFL's leading rusher...

I dont think the running game will change much regardless of the QB... and with that in mind the smart choice for Mangini to go with Chad...

He will have big money FA's that want to WIN week one... not week 5 and put up with a learning curve... there is a good chance the JETS get 10-12 wins with Chad as QB this year...

You simply could have said, "Nothing is Chad's fault" and then place the blame on the o-line, running backs, receivers, defense, coaching staff, water boy, etc. Did I forget anyone?

This is getting old, real old.

[ECURB]

You simply could have said, "Nothing is Chad's fault" and then place the blame on the o-line, running backs, receivers, defense, coaching staff, water boy, etc. Did I forget anyone?

This is getting old, real old.

You support cheaters who have won NOTHING without cheating... just sayin...

[124]

Chad will win the job and we won't have to talk about all this nonsense anymore. I laugh at the notion that they would just hand the team over to Kellen "deer in the headlights" Clemens after what he showed last year. If he can win the job I'm fine with that but I fully expect Chad to be the starter this year with the moves they have made.

Kellen "deer in the headlights" Clemens - 3 wins.

Chad Noodle Arm Game Manager And Nothing More Pennington - 1 win.

I'm just sayin.

The reason and the only reason this regime will hand the job to Pennington is because they spent over $200 million in free agency and in the draft and they know that Chad can take the team to the playoffs IF he doesn't play as poorly as he did in 2007. They know he can lead a team to 10 wins, with Clemens its unknown. He could fall on his face on his way to a 6-10 season or he could shine and take the team farther than Pennington. They'll go with the mostly known with Pennington and his weak, 10 wins maximum right arm.

[Gainzo]

You support cheaters who have won NOTHING without cheating... just sayin...

You put a player over the team you supposedly support.

I don't want to piss off the people I like here so I'm not even going to answer your pathetic post.

[madmike1]

Kellen "deer in the headlights" Clemens - 3 wins.

Chad Noodle Arm Game Manager And Nothing More Pennington - 1 win.

I'm just sayin.

The reason and the only reason this regime will hand the job to Pennington is because they spent over $200 million in free agency and in the draft and they know that Chad can take the team to the playoffs IF he doesn't play as poorly as he did in 2007. They know he can lead a team to 10 wins, with Clemens its unknown. He could fall on his face on his way to a 6-10 season or he could shine and take the team farther than Pennington. They'll go with the mostly known with Pennington and his weak, 10 wins maximum right arm.

I believe that they will give Clemens the job if he beats Pennington out in TC. If he doesn't the jets are a deep trouble because they will have an old team for the most part with no QB.

[124]

I believe that they will give Clemens the job if he beats Pennington out in TC. If he doesn't the jets are a deep trouble because they will have an old team for the most part with no QB.

I'd like to believe in Mangini's cute little "everyone will have to win their job in an open competition" thing, but I don't. At least not a Quarterback, especially after the team when all the draft picks are done being signed will have spent over $200 million to win now. I think for at least 2008 they give the weak armed game manager one last shot, unfortunately.

[madmike1]

I'd like to believe in Mangini's cute little "everyone will have to win their job in an open competition" thing, but I don't. At least not a Quarterback, especially after the team when all the draft picks are done being signed will have spent over $200 million to win now. I think for at least 2008 they give the weak armed game manager one last shot, unfortunately.

The Jets GM and Coach aren't under any pressure to win now. Woody is gonna give them AT LEAST 2 more years. If they start Pennington it's because they think he's better and if thats the case, Clemens is a bust.

[LWC611]

The Jets GM and Coach aren't under any pressure to win now. Woody is gonna give them AT LEAST 2 more years. If they start Pennington it's because they think he's better and if thats the case, Clemens is a bust.

I Agree

[Thai Jet]

You simply could have said, "Nothing is Chad's fault" and then place the blame on the o-line, running backs, receivers, defense, coaching staff, water boy, etc. Did I forget anyone?

This is getting old, real old.

What's getting old is YOU stalking every Chad or ecurb thread. You trolls amaze me.

[Thai Jet]

I believe that they will give Clemens the job if he beats Pennington out in TC. If he doesn't the jets are a deep trouble because they will have an old team for the most part with no QB.

They will. The CS WILL start the QB who gives them the best chance to win.

[BroadwayJoe12]

You support cheaters who have won NOTHING without cheating... just sayin...

I just finished reading this entire thread and i find it extremely humorous how you've completely ignored sperms post that called you out on how poor your statistical argument for chad was...just sayin.

I also am wondering why when you see an intelligent post, most recently by gainzo, that you refuse to answer it in a civil manner, but instead tell him that he roots for cheaters..it's pretty childish....just sayin

i'm going to assume that i'll get a smartass comment or maybe one belittling me, instead of an explanation...just sayin

these chad threads make me smile when i see a kobe24 thread, atleast his stuff is new..just sayin

[Arsis]

I just finished reading this entire thread and i find it extremely humorous how you've completely ignored sperms post that called you out on how poor your statistical argument for chad was...just sayin.

I also am wondering why when you see an intelligent post, most recently by gainzo, that you refuse to answer it in a civil manner, but instead tell him that he roots for cheaters..it's pretty childish....just sayin

i'm going to assume that i'll get a smartass comment or maybe one belittling me, instead of an explanation...just sayin

these chad threads make me smile when i see a kobe24 thread, atleast his stuff is new..just sayin

but... but... chad is really accurate from 3-5 yards beyond the los... and he is just so darned cute.

[124]

I believe that they will give Clemens the job if he beats Pennington out in TC. If he doesn't the jets are a deep trouble because they will have an old team for the most part with no QB.

I don't buy that one bit and I'm sure they want to put a winning product on the field immediately because they know if they do not the fans are going to start to make some serious noise.

[lancemehl]

Not the starting RB... you must be adding in a long Leon run or something I guess...

Forget it, bro. If KC was any good, he would have been handed the team by now, the fact that Chad Pennington WILL be the opening day starter tells me all I need to now about Clemens.

Now that we have a REAL defense and a O-line, I expect Chad to add a couple more playoffs wins to his resume this year.

Maybe Clemens can't handle this complex offense, I don't know, but CERTAINLY last year was the time to get his feet wet.

This is a "We'll see" argument that will go on forever.

P.S.

Whoever gets the nod I'll root for 100%. period. I just have a STRONG feeling it will be #10.

[ECURB]

What's getting old is YOU stalking every Chad or ecurb thread. You trolls amaze me.

Crazy isnt it? He hates my love for Chad more than I love Chad... lol

[124]

lancemehl, your argument is ridiculous. Kellen started 8 games last season behind one of the worst Offensive Lines in the league. You cannot say that after 8 games you have a definite knowing of whether he is going to be a good player or a career back-up. The Jets are going to give Chad the job fo one reason and one reason only:

They KNOW he can take them to a 9 or 10 win season if he plays like his old self, but nothing more.

Clemens is unknown. Could be a 6-10 season but could be 12-4. They are going to want to get to 9-7, 10-6 before they make a change to the unknown. They'll want to be coming off a winning season before they give an unknown the job. People need to start recognizing this.

[Sperm Edwards]

I believe that they will give Clemens the job if he beats Pennington out in TC. If he doesn't the jets are a deep trouble because they will have an old team for the most part with no QB.

This is spot on.

What people also gloss over is that at this point in his career, Chad hadn't "proven" that he was worthy of starting a single football game.

Despite the public "open competition" stuff, which I'm sure Mangini would also recite as it relates to such entrenced veterans as Coles, Mangold, etc., I think the job belongs to Clemens unless he gets totally schooled by Pennington in camp.

Whatever Pennington was once, he is no more. Right now, John Beck would beat out Dan Fouts for the starting job. Victor Hobson would beat out Lawrence Taylor. Over time, through age, injury, or both, players' skills deteriorate.

So pointing out Martin having success with Pennington, when the Jets' OL was better than I think a lot of people acknowledge, has no merit in Pennington's effect going into 2008.

He is slow.

He has (easily) the weakest arm in the NFL, and probably one of the weaker ones in NCAA.

He panics in the pocket, even as a veteran.

He doesn't get over mistakes he's made; he has too much "memory" of bad plays.

He will get injured anyway, as he has every year except one.

He make sit easy to gameplan against the passing game AND the running game.

If Clemens loses the competition, this team's wildest-dream upside (other than the defense scoring a touchdown or two in the same game when needed) is 10-6 with the possibility of a playoff win if we're matched up against a weak playoff team in round 1.

There is no upside for a team that is serious about scoring points or reaching a superbowl. The Jets don't get to play a 1-win Dolphins team in consecutive rounds in the playoffs. You have to beat the Patriots; you have to beat the Colts; you have to beat the best of the best in the AFC.

Clemens probably isn't the answer. But Chad is definitely NOT the answer. I can't believe a head coach who was once both a defensive coordinator and defensive backs coach doesn't see how much easier a QB like Pennington makes it for the opposing defense, as compared to a QB who - through arm or underexposure to the league - brings some element of unpredictability in terms of throws and playcalling.

This is all way off the thread starter.

The thread is not only misleading, it is outright fiction. The whole premise of the "argument" began by stating Pennington started 10 games and Clemens 6. So who even knows which games were cherry-picked to make #'s under Pennington look better.

I heard all last summer how that was the first time Chad had all off-season to work with the team as the undisputed starter, and was also healthy. Lot of good it did. He was terrible.

The only thing that's left is that some people don't care if the Jets are winners as long as their favorite player is the QB. The entire team should pick up the slack to overcome the shortcomings of the player who should be doing the same for them.

[BP]

How does he KNOW this based on Chad horrible play of last year?

ecurb has all the inside knowledge on this coaching staff. don't you know Mangini was shopping for a used car in CT this year?

ecurb has some of the worst logic I have ever seen. I cant stop laughing at this clown.

Where's that pic of him in the dunce cap? Somebody send it to me in a PM.

I have it saved on my computer.

:rl:

This is a prime example of debunking the "stats don't lie" garbage. When people use certain stats to insinuate things that aren't true. First off, I'll preface this with the following statement: Clemens was awful last year. Awful.

I also notice that ecurb has, with great subtlety, re-written who was the starting (or primary) QB in at least two games, though we don't know which. Each QB started 8 games in 2007. Clemens got knocked out of the NE game after 1 (awful) pass, so even though he got the start, Pennington was the QB essentially for the entire game.

It gets better:

Compared to how other RB's fared against common opponents, Thomas Jones averaged 0.23ypc more playing with Clemens than with Pennington.

Huh? Jones averaged 3.6 with Clemens and 3.8 with Pennington. What the hell am I talking about?

They played against different opponents.

Let's take a look at how Jones fared compared to how the NFL as a whole fared against those opponents. Pennington was the primary QB in 9 games; Clemens in 7:

Opponent - Team D ypc - (Jones ypc) - net diff

---------------------------------------------------

With Pennington as the primary QB:

• Patriots 4.4 (3.0) = -1.4
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Bills 4.4 (2.9) = -1.5
  
• Giants 3.8 (2.8) = -1.0
  
• Eagles 3.8 (5.4) = +1.6
  
• Bengals 4.2 (3.5) = -0.7
  
• Bills 4.4 (4.4) = 0.0
  
• Patriots 4.4 (2.1) = -2.3
  
• Titans 4.0 (2.8) = -1.2

AVG = -0.73 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

With Clemens as the primary QB:

• Ravens 2.8 (2.8) = 0.0
  
• Redskins 3.7 (3.8) = +0.1
  
• Steelers 4.0 (3.9) = -0.1
  
• Cowboys 4.0 (2.4) = -1.6
  
• Dolphins 4.5 (3.1) = -1.4
  
• Browns 4.5 (4.4) = -0.1
  
• Chiefs 4.3 (3.9) = -0.4

AVG = -0.50 ypc compared to other RB's

---------------------------------------------------

So they both (with tons of help from their sucky OL) contributed to Jones averaging lower than the league did. But compared to others, Jones' margin of "worse-ness" was greater when Pennington was the QB compared to Clemens by almost a quarter of a yard per carry.

Oh - and with Clemens' sucky QB rating (that stat that Penningtologists love to cling to), and with Jones' gross average allegedly ypc being 0.2 lower, the offense scored about 5 ppg more with Clemens (16) than with Pennington (11) when you take out D/ST touchdowns and meaningless garbage like that last-second TD against the Bengals when we were down by 15 pts with 3 seconds left thanks to one of Pennington's pick-6's that ended the Jets' prior drive.

Now if you wanted to be really fair, throw out one-game anomalies by taking away the best & worst performance. I mean, sometimes the OL just has a good day & sometimes Jones just has a good day; sometimes one (or both) have bad days. That only magnifies the difference: under Pennington, Jones drops to -0.83 ypc compared to the rest of those teams' opponents; under Clemens, Jones inches up to within -0.40 ypc compared to the same. So relatively, Jones averaged 0.43 ypc MORE (compared to how everyone else fared) when Clemens was his QB compared to when Pennington was back there.

Penningtologists just search for any stats that make their golden boy look better than he is. With the logic used in a simple 3.8 vs 3.6 ypc (which isn't even true because he's reversed who was actually the QB in 2 of those games), that assumes all NFL teams have the same quality rush defense. Everyone knows that such a statement is ridiculous to say the least.

This is hardly an endorsement of Clemens, but it is downright damning when you look at Pennington as our option for QB'ing this team. Pennington is terrible. He brings down the passing game, he brings down the rushing game, and he brings the entire opposing defense in to the 10-12 yard deep field the Jets always seem to play on when he's back there.

Pray that Clemens has improved dramatically. Pray hard.

Sperm---> <---ecurb---->

[bobbyjet69]

ecurb has all the inside knowledge on this coaching staff. don't you know Mangini was shopping for a used car in CT this year?

I have it saved on my computer.

Sperm---> <---ecurb---->

Owch!! Don't mess with the Sperm!!!

[Sperm Edwards]

It's absurd.

"Chad rules. Here are the numbers to prove it. Stats don't lie and all that...and...what?...the stats show the opposite?...uh...it doesn't matter. I'm still right. Go New York Penningtons -- I mean New York Jets. Chad rules."

[PeterNorth09]

I don't think the QB affects the running game as much as people says it does.

Take Peyton Manning for example. He's usually exhibit A when people are talking about how having a great QB who spreads the field makes the running game better. Ok but when people say that they neglect the facts that his offensive line (Diem, Scott, Saturday, Lilja) is actually quite good at run-blocking plus the RB's he's played with over the years (Edge, Addai) are excellent players. The Dominic Rhodes, James Mungros and Kenton Keiths come in and play well but only for a certain amount of time until it's time to give the ball back to a possible future HOF'er in James and an excellent young player in Addai.

The Jets running game next year will be what it is regardless of who plays QB. Tangini made some good moves revamping the O-line and hopefully Tony Richardson has something left b/c we have not had decent play at the FB position for over two years now.

Pennington has never hurt the Jets running game. He didn't stop Curtis Martin from having all those good years including a great year in '04. The reason why it has sucked last 3 years is personnell. We went from Martin, Kareem Mackenzie and Jerald Sowell/Richie Anderson to whatever scrub we're starting at RB, Anthony Clement and BJ Askew and Darian Barnes.

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't think the QB affects the running game as much as people says it does.

Take Peyton Manning for example. He's usually exhibit A when people are talking about how having a great QB who spreads the field makes the running game better. Ok but when people say that they neglect the facts that his offensive line (Diem, Scott, Saturday, Lilja) is actually quite good at run-blocking plus the RB's he's played with over the years (Edge, Addai) are excellent players. The Dominic Rhodes, James Mungros and Kenton Keiths come in and play well but only for a certain amount of time until it's time to give the ball back to a possible future HOF'er in James and an excellent young player in Addai.

The Jets running game next year will be what it is regardless of who plays QB. Tangini made some good moves revamping the O-line and hopefully Tony Richardson has something left b/c we have not had decent play at the FB position for over two years now.

Pennington has never hurt the Jets running game. He didn't stop Curtis Martin from having all those good years including a great year in '04. The reason why it has sucked last 3 years is personnell. We went from Martin, Kareem Mackenzie and Jerald Sowell/Richie Anderson to whatever scrub we're starting at RB, Anthony Clement and BJ Askew and Darian Barnes.

This isn't 2004, and the Jets' schedule that year was a joke. Martin had good games against the garbage defenses & folded like a cheap suit against when we needed it against the good ones.

Also in 2004, while Pennington never had a strong arm to begin with, it was at least adequate enough. That is not the case today. If you're going to point that out, then the Saints should likewise bring back Aaron Brooks because McAllister had his best years when he was the QB.

It isn't any one thing to me. It's a combination of factors, in no particular order:

- the OL

- the schedule. Not just who we played, but where & when we played them

- injuries

- the QB

- the playcalling

- RB personnel

- FB personnel

- WR/TE personnel

But to exclude the QB as a factor in creating room for the running game is a bit disingenuous. Of course it is a factor. A safety (or two) plays closer to the LOS against an average Chad Pennington play than an average Peyton Manning play. The field is just shorter with Chad - particularly the way he plays now.

He plays scared, he plays predictably, and CB's sit on his looper sideline screens.

I don't think Clemens is anything great, but he allows for a lot more creativity. Pretend you're a defensive coordinator. Are you really going to send your safties deep into coverage play after play after play when Pennington is the QB? Of course not. Over 80% of the time, it's going to be a running play or Chad is going to throw it within 5 yards (or less) of the line of scrimmage.

So he isn't the root cause of our running woes the last 2 years. But he is clearly one of a number of factors.