Religious Folk Query

[Bob]

Why are Koreans killing themselves in such great numbers?

The Recession.

Hmmmm. If they have 18-20 year old daughters they can't support, I'd be willing to take a a couple of them on.

As for your friend, screw religion. Get him some professional help.

[SouthernJet]

Hmmmm. If they have 18-20 year old daughters they can't support, I'd be willing to take a a couple of them on.

Bob, be a good boy

[Jet Moses]

As for your friend, screw religion. Get him some professional help.

Well you can do both.

Bob, you know I am a practicing Catholic, yet the whole faith healing religiousity of A.A. is a huge turnoff for me.

Professional help is definitely essential. I would begin here:

http://www.rebtinstitute.org/store/

A sample of Ellis:

7yFxIjhdSlE

[Ghost]

I'm pretty sure it's not worth committing suicide.

[Jet Moses]

I'm pretty sure it's not worth committing suicide.

It's the epitomy of an irrational act.

[Maxman]

Hmmmm. If they have 18-20 year old daughters they can't support, I'd be willing to take a a couple of them on.

As for your friend, screw religion. Get him some professional help.

I actually agree with that. If this person is thinking about doing this I would start at professional help. Plenty of time to work your way up from there so to speak.

[Jet Moses]

What people did in Aushwitz in the 40's and what my friend is going through are mutually exclusive situations. Comparing the two is pointless.

Well the point I was making was that people have survived hopeless situations, where suicide would actually be an understandable option.

Have you asked your friend why he is suicidal?

I think that should be ground zero for administering help.

[jetophile]

Well you can do both.

Bob, you know I am a practicing Catholic, yet the whole faith healing religiousity of A.A. is a huge turnoff for me.

Professional help is definitely essential. I would begin here:

http://www.rebtinstitute.org/store/

A sample of Ellis:

7yFxIjhdSlE

Albert Ellis was awesome, and it's funny how so many proponents of AA think he's a quack and a freak. Well, maybe it isn't so funny. That whole idea of calling yourself a powerless worm and then being just as dependent - only on something more benign - yeah, that's a plan. That is if you consider it benign. What you never hear about is people who break bad habits alone with great success. Too threatening, I guess.

Did you ever read The Small Book by Jack Trimpey for shiggles? LMAO, people from AA would probably have a book burning. And I wasn't getting on my high horse, what I said was that people get on their high horse about suicide. It's an awful thing, but it beats the s hit out of me how having an opinion is somehow considered a bad thing. Not everything is always black and white, but that wasn't quite obvious enough, I guess.

[Jet Moses]

If there is a God -and I'm on the fence about it- I suspect that God is in here rather than out there.

I can respect that. But Alice Cooper captures my point of view perfectly in his song, Brutal Planet:

WyaT9IjnwKo

[slats]

Albert Ellis was awesome, and it's funny how so many proponents of AA think he's a quack and a freak. Well, maybe it isn't so funny. That whole idea of calling yourself a powerless worm and then being just as dependent - only on something more benign - yeah, that's a plan. That is if you consider it benign. What you never hear about is people who break bad habits alone with great success. Too threatening, I guess.

Did you ever read The Small Book by Jack Trimpey for shiggles? LMAO, people from AA would probably have a book burning. And I wasn't getting on my high horse, what I said was that people get on their high horse about suicide. It's an awful thing, but it beats the s hit out of me how having an opinion is somehow considered a bad thing. Not everything is always black and white, but that wasn't quite obvious enough, I guess.

Addictions are different for different people, so there should be different ways about getting free from them. I don't think AA people really give a crap about what might work for someone else. The ones I know -and I know a lot- are generally just good people who're happy about anyone getting clean anyway they can. I know some are dogmatists, but it's the dogmatists following any philosophy/religion/etc. that are the real problem, not the belief system itself - in most cases.

Mr. Trimpey needs to make a major case against AA because he's trying to make money doing what AA does for free. Good to keep the fact that the man has a real agenda in mind.

And anyone who thinks that members of AA aren't getting clean on their own has no idea what the program or fellowship is really about.

[Jet Moses]

Albert Ellis was awesome, and it's funny how so many proponents of AA think he's a quack and a freak. Well, maybe it isn't so funny. That whole idea of calling yourself a powerless worm and then being just as dependent - only on something more benign - yeah, that's a plan. That is if you consider it benign. What you never hear about is people who break bad habits alone with great success. Too threatening, I guess.

First of all, I'm not an alcoholic. Indeed, alcoholism is a folk term--- it is not a medical term. A doctor can diagnose you as alcohol dependent, or alcohol abuser, but never an alcoholic. A doctor who diagnosed you as an alcoholic would lose his license.

When I was 25, my daughter was born and I knew my drinking behavior was not compatible with being a father. So I went to A.A. off and on from 1990-1997, with my longest period of sobriety 4 years.

I know that without A.A. I would not have been able to accomplish that. There was a numbe of reasons why I started drinking again--- I went to Brazil (party central), loved ones died, etc.

But the thing is, all that crap they told me in A.A. about being out of control and all that, it was just balderdash. I matured during that decade of abstinence. They made up all these fairytales about "your disease is doing pushups" like if I drank again, it would be at the point I would have been at if I had never stopped.

First of all, I couldn't drink the way I drank when I was in my twenties. No f'n way. So that turned out to be a big lie.

In the beginning, I had "sponsors" telling me not eat rum cake because I'll have an "allergic reaction".

Say what? LIsten, I don't have a disease, and I don't have an allergy. I drank in excess because I wanted to. It was always a choice. Always.

Powerless? God would restore me to "sanity"? I'm insane, now? It was just one can of worms after another. My life is unmanageable? So I should turn it over to my sponsor? The guy who came to A.A. after hitting a child drunk driving? Now he's sober, and he's got all the answers?

Like I said, I got what I wanted from it, but from what I could see, I think it does more damage than it helps people. For the 4% who make a career out of it, it's not worth the irreperable damage it does to the 96% others who alot of the times were forced into A.A. and of course there are alot of young people who are not alcohol dependenat or abusers but they have been brainwashed to believe that they are.

[Jet Moses]

Did you ever read The Small Book by Jack Trimpey for shiggles? LMAO, people from AA would probably have a book burning. And I wasn't getting on my high horse, what I said was that people get on their high horse about suicide. It's an awful thing, but it beats the s hit out of me how having an opinion is somehow considered a bad thing. Not everything is always black and white, but that wasn't quite obvious enough, I guess.

AA is the epitomy of group think. It attracts predators and predatory behavior. Here you have a room full of vulnerable people, some of whom are baring there souls bare, and you can just see the vultures circling. It's sad.

I own The Small Book.

Another great book is The Diseasing of America by Stanton Peele. You should read it.

[war ensemble]

What people did in Aushwitz in the 40's and what my friend is going through are mutually exclusive situations. Comparing the two is pointless. it's apples and oranges. You act like people dont off themselves everyday in America. Check the stats about the rising suicide rates among KOrean Americans in New York City.

Convince him that he's not Korean?

[jetophile]

Addictions are different for different people, so there should be different ways about getting free from them. I don't think AA people really give a crap about what might work for someone else. The ones I know -and I know a lot- are generally just good people who're happy about anyone getting clean anyway they can. I know some are dogmatists, but it's the dogmatists following any philosophy/religion/etc. that are the real problem, not the belief system itself - in most cases.

Mr. Trimpey needs to make a major case against AA because he's trying to make money doing what AA does for free. Good to keep the fact that the man has a real agenda in mind.

And anyone who thinks that members of AA aren't getting clean on their own has no idea what the program or fellowship is really about.

I can go with that, but everyone has an agenda. You conveniently left out that the 'Addiction Industry' - which is precisely what it is - charges thousands of dollars for what people can also get for free. 12-Step Rehabs, it's a sham; and for all of the addiction as disease garbage the world is force-fed, apparently "traditional" 12-Step Rehabs have no shame collecting insurance dollars over 'character flaws' or 'moral defects' or whatever the f they call them. It's so pervasive, it's sickening. Then again, blood-letting was also pervasive, and we know which way that went.

I believe in God, but I also firmly believe that God gave people a brain and expects us to use it (I don't mean that personally, you know that). I don't see anything wrong with getting comfort from God, but there is also nothing the least bit humble about the idea that with all of the human cruelty in the world, God singles people out specifically and cares about their damn sobriety or whatever all while children get macheted to death in their beds. "Get some humility!" - why don't these people listen to what's coming out of their own mouths? It begs the question.

[slats]

I can go with that, but everyone has an agenda. You conveniently left out that the 'Addiction Industry' - which is precisely what it is - charges thousands of dollars for what people can also get for free.

I agree with that. I didn't leave anything out, I just didn't expand on RR vs. AA. The whole medical insurance industry is the biggest scam on the face of the earth, but it obviously has powerful defenders, too. People are going to do whatever they can to make money until someone outlaws it. That's just the way it is.

12-Step Rehabs, it's a sham; and for all of the addiction as disease garbage the world is force-fed, apparently "traditional" 12-Step Rehabs have no shame collecting insurance dollars over 'character flaws' or 'moral defects' or whatever the f they call them. It's so pervasive, it's sickening. Then again, blood-letting was also pervasive, and we know which way that went.

I believe in God, but I also firmly believe that God gave people a brain and expects us to use it (I don't mean that personally, you know that).

Some people are smarter than others, some people are stronger than others. People all across those spectrums face issues with addiction. Some of them cling to Bill W.'s book like it's their Bible. It gives them hope, and something to believe in. If they follow it completely they become clean, sober, useful members of society. Something they weren't before. Whether you, I, or anyone else wants to buy into addiction as a disease, or allergies to alcohol, or writing lists of people you've harmed and going out and making amends has little to do with those folks getting clean and getting their lives back. Doesn't hurt me in anyway that I can see. Seems to me that one less addict is probably helpful, in fact. One less thief. One less drunk driver. Why should you or I care how they got that way?

If other folks need to do it without AA, or anyone else, that's their choice, too. And both groups can bravely tell me how awesome they are as a result, I really don't care.

I don't see anything wrong with getting comfort from God, but there is also nothing the least bit humble about the idea that with all of the human cruelty in the world, God singles people out specifically and cares about their damn sobriety or whatever all while children get macheted to death in their beds. "Get some humility!" - why don't these people listen to what's coming out of their own mouths? It begs the question.

This is such a small minority of people in program that it simply doesn't matter to me - until they take their holier-than-thou attitude to places of power that they can do harm. But again, that's another issue. All zealots are nutty and dangerous. The AA'ers are a relatively small and mostly benign portion of that group.

[Vudu]

Well the point I was making was that people have survived hopeless situations, where suicide would actually be an understandable option.

Have you asked your friend why he is suicidal?

I think that should be ground zero for administering help.

He lost 8 million dollars in a deal gone awry at work, he got fired.

He has a mortgage that he can't pay and is having a hard time finding a new job. He also has a 9 month old with a heart defect in the hospital with mounting medical bills, who they're not sure will survive the next few months. Sh%t has hit the fan from all corners for him.

Different cultures deal with things differently. In Korean Culture its seen as "dishonorable" if you can't take care of your business. There is no pity parties, condolences or "you'll be ok just have faith", you are shunned. Koreans are a very materialistic people that put a lot of stock in what you have. I've tried talking to him about it but he seems set in his ways. I've even called his sister but she's got her own issues.

[Jet Moses]

He lost 8 million dollars in a deal gone awry at work, he got fired.

He has a mortgage that he can't pay and is having a hard time finding a new job. He also has a 9 month old with a heart defect in the hospital with mounting medical bills, who they're not sure will survive the next few months. Sh%t has hit the fan from all corners for him.

Different cultures deal with things differently. In Korean Culture its seen as "dishonorable" if you can't take care of your business. There is no pity parties, condolences or "you'll be ok just have faith", you are shunned. Koreans are a very materialistic people that put a lot of stock in what you have. I've tried talking to him about it but he seems set in his ways. I've even called his sister but she's got her own issues.

So he came into this world thinking that he would never fail? And now that he has, he's giving up? That's sad. I'm glad my parents instilled in me such low expectations.

Kidding aside---

I know Asians have alot of pressure put on them by family to succeed, I think in China or Japan the suicide rate at universities is off the charts.

Can't say anything to that but at this point all I can do is recommend he reads this book:

http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Happen-Good-People/dp/0380603926

[Jet Moses]

Mr. Trimpey needs to make a major case against AA because he's trying to make money doing what AA does for free.

Are you ****tin' me? AA is a corporate enterprise. They rake in billions, and there isn't an honest accounting of all the cash.

Also, statistically, more people get sober and stay abstinent from drugs and alcohol without 12 step, rehab and all the other psychobabble.

They simply quit, cold turkey, and never drink again.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

[SouthernJet]

Are you ****tin' me? AA is a corporate enterprise. They rake in billions.

Also, statistically, more people get sober and stay abstinent from drugs and alcohol without 12 step, rehab and all the other psychobabble.

They simply quit, cold turkey, and never drink again.

but they eat a lot of turkey

[Jet Moses]

but they eat a lot of turkey

That joke gets a trombone.

[serphnx]

So he came into this world thinking that he would never fail? And now that he has, he's giving up? That's sad. I'm glad my parents instilled in me such low expectations.

Kidding aside---

I know Asians have alot of pressure put on them by family to succeed, I think in China or Japan the suicide rate at universities is off the charts.

Can't say anything to that but at this point all I can do is recommend he reads this book:

http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Happen-Good-People/dp/0380603926

Lots of people are pressured by family to succeed. Lots of people are also having trouble finding a job now, and lots of people deal with health issues and health issues of loved ones.

No wonder this guy's sister doesn't want to deal with it. I'd still say get him the professional help and do what you can DLJ, but don't bother justifying anything he's going through. A lot of people have it a lot worse, this guy sounds like he's had a privileged life (and honestly anyone living in the US has more than likely gotten it to a certain degree at least).

The worst part of this all to me is he wants to kill himself while his daughter is fighting for survival. Give me a break. How can you type all that DLJ and actually sympathize or justify any of it, claiming people are materialistic? This guy needs a slap in the face.

Also what about his wife? I doubt this supposedly traditional Korean guy that's set in the culture would have a child while being unmarried, so what does she think about this?

[PatriotReign37]

He lost 8 million dollars in a deal gone awry at work, he got fired.

He has a mortgage that he can't pay and is having a hard time finding a new job. He also has a 9 month old with a heart defect in the hospital with mounting medical bills, who they're not sure will survive the next few months. Sh%t has hit the fan from all corners for him.

Different cultures deal with things differently. In Korean Culture its seen as "dishonorable" if you can't take care of your business. There is no pity parties, condolences or "you'll be ok just have faith", you are shunned. Koreans are a very materialistic people that put a lot of stock in what you have. I've tried talking to him about it but he seems set in his ways. I've even called his sister but she's got her own issues.

What about getting a Korean church involved?

[slats]

Are you ****tin' me? AA is a corporate enterprise. They rake in billions, and there isn't an honest accounting of all the cash.

Also, statistically, more people get sober and stay abstinent from drugs and alcohol without 12 step, rehab and all the other psychobabble.

They simply quit, cold turkey, and never drink again.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

That link is statistical babble.

The commonest treatment modality by far was the A.A. Twelve-Step "spiritual therapy." The treatments were a cross section of all of the standard treatments used in the USA, which means that at least 85%

[The Crusher]

That link is statistical babble.

I'd venture to guess that roughly 100% of the people who walk thru AA's doors for the first time tried to quit drinking on their own first. Probably a number of times. The fact that AA manages to help 85-93% (based on the studies Mr. A. Orange sites) of problem drinkers who were unable to quit on their own would seem to suggest some sort of success rate.

One of the girls in my office went to AA and it was ****ing annoying. She was leaving three times a day for meetings and wanted me to have a meeting with her and her sponsor. Her sponsor smelled of cigarettes and looked like he needed a drink. Bunch of ****ing quitters if you ask me.

[SouthernJet]

One of the girls in my office went to AA and it was ****ing annoying. She was leaving three times a day for meetings and wanted me to have a meeting with her and her sponsor. Her sponsor smelled of cigarettes and looked like he needed a drink. Bunch of ****ing quitters if you ask me.

You should have told her you were going to Sex Addicts Anonymous and that maybe the two of you could work something out.

[Jet Moses]

That link is statistical babble.

Where are your statistics, then? Do you have any?

Treating the compulsions of modern life as "disease events" is actually a way of avoiding dealing with reality. But facing lifes challenges is too hard-- its easier to dismiss excessive drinking as a "disease", and become indoctrinated with the idea that we are not active agents in our addiction, but passive victims of a disease. What kind of psychology is that?

This ideology has led to our entire society decaying to the point where nobody is ever accountable for egregious behavior--- Tiger Woods didn't do anything wrong, he's simply addicted to sex. He has a disease.

I'd venture to guess that roughly 100% of the people who walk thru AA's doors for the first time tried to quit drinking on their own first. Probably a number of times. The fact that AA manages to help 85-93% (based on the studies Mr. A. Orange sites) of problem drinkers who were unable to quit on their own would seem to suggest some sort of success rate

I'd venture to guess that 25% of people in AA shouldn't even be there in the first place ie mental patients, teenagers, family members.

It's not enough for AA to pathologize non-alcohol related behavior, but family members of problem drinkers are "sick" too? Are you kidding me? And teenagers should not be any where near an AA meeting. There are too many predators and they are very vulnerable and the vast majority of them are not "alcoholics" they just did some experimenting and had a bad experience. Making them wear a scarlet letter in perpetuity is child abuse, pure and simple. I've been to numerous AA meetings with mental patients who didn't drink in excess or have any dependency whatsoever, they were just mentally ill and needed a free cup of coffee. How are people who admittedly need help going to get help in an environment like that?

Another 50% are court ordered, that's why they are there. Some are sincerely trying to stop drinking, but alot of them are just nuisances who don't want to be there and are filled with resentment. Again, how does this help the person that wants to be there to have to listen to somebody share and talk all sorts of jibberish when they are just laying some con down?

Another 20% are the hang arounds--

These are the people that keep "slipping" and then come back and tell all their "war stories". It makes them feel like celebrities for the first time in their life, and they get all sorts of negative attention.

The remaining 5% are the people who have actually "made it" they are the ones who put 5, 10, twenty years in AA "once day at a time" "through the grace of God" who tell the same stupid corny stories ad nauseum and lay their BS guilt trips on all the hang arounds "slippers". These people have joined the cult and have totally x'ed out there own ego and what keeps them coming back each and every night is they get to brow beat some vulnerable kid.

Alcoholism is a myth perpetuated by A.A. that lies to vulnerable people and brainwashes them to believe that that:

Alcoholism is waiting to prey on anyone who has a few drinks

Total BS because Alcoholism is BS. But even if we are talking about medical diagnosis like Alcohol dependence or Alcohol abuse, not everybody who drinks either acutely or chronically is susceptible to become dependent. Some people get bombed only at weddings. Does that make them an "alcoholic"? According to AA it does. Some people make the mistake of driving after having one too many ****tails. Does that automatically make them an alcoholic? According to AA it does, because they brow beat every DWI court ordered pleeb in the room. And on and on.

Alcoholism is an an inherited, incurable disease to which we are all equally susceptible

I'll go this far as to agree there is an alcohol gene (our medieval ancestors lived to breed because they drank alcohol, not water, which was full of bacteria), so imbibing can be a nature thing as well as a nurture thing. I totally reject the "disease" concept. It's total balderdash.

Once diagnosed as alcoholic, you remain alcoholic forever

More self defeating BS that is propogated in AA meetings. It's not enough to stigmatize people and call them an alcoholic (again, whatever that is) but now you have to tell them that there's a monster living inside of them and if they don't keep coming to AA, they will start drinking again, and die. God forbid somebody tells the problem drinker, "You know what? You drink too much, and when you do, you make bad choices. Why don't you just stop, or slow down?" Well what AA does it tells the problem drinker they can't stop or slow down because they are "powerless" and unless you attend meetings FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE and flagelate yourself before mother group, the monster will get you!

You must abstain from alcohol - the only effective treatment - or lose everything.

More self defeating BS. The lifers in mother group will brow beat you "If you stop going to meetings YOU WILL START DRINKING AGAIN!" Which is just more self fulfilling prophecy. In essence they are telling you to start drinking again, just so you can inevitably come crawling back to mother group and grovel while they say "See, I told you!"

Do I think AA is good for a very select group of people? Yes, people who are physically dependent on alcohol or who have abused alcohol to the point that they can't hold a job, a family, etc. who wind up on skid row--- THEN AA IS IDEAL FOR THEM.

But putting a bunch of kids who got a DWI in an unhealthy environment like an AA meeting is not ideal.

I've seen people lie, just to fit in, about there drinking. You see, you have to qualify your alcoholism by always saying "I was bad, I was really out there" and then go on about having "blackouts" and other things WHEN NONE OF THAT EVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO YOU.

I think the statistics show alot of things--- once, the vast majority of people who attend AA meetings shouldn't be there in the first place, and another far more unfortuanate group, who went their looking sincerely for help with their drinking problem, wind up with a headful of self defeating BS that actually makes them prisoners of alcohol, makes them less self-sufficient, and far less likely to outgrow the problem, and more likely to relapse.

But I guess that is what AA lifers want-- A perpetual revolving door of "relapsers" to brow beat because in the end that is what keeps the lifer sober, at the expense of another human being.

I do not believe abstinence should be enforced, either at the end of a gun or through fairy tales and lies, I believe we are morally responsible for our own actions.

AA indoctrinates the new comer with the self defeating mantra that once you have a single drink you are unable to control your drinking, and you will go berserk. That is total nonsense. I don't care how drunk I am, that next drink, that very well may be the one to kill me--- whas a choice being made. Period.

[jetophile]

I also don't doubt doubt that AA's 'success rates' are completely padded. Where do they get their 'success rates', anyway? From people who are anonymous. Besides, I don't consider the legal system forcing people into a religious program - which is what AA is - as even remotely constitutional. It's anything but. It's Draconian.

[Jet Moses]

I also don't doubt doubt that AA's 'success rates' are completely padded. Where do they get their 'success rates', anyway? From people who are anonymous. Besides, I don't consider the legal system forcing people into a religious program - which is what AA is - as even remotely constitutional. It's anything but. It's Draconian.

I agree 100%. I'm a Roman Catholic, and I wouldn't want to show up for Mass on Sunday with a church full of people who were forced to be there because the court said so. Thats demented and deranged beyond description. Yet, thats what happens in AA. Worse, there is no authority.

[ZachEY]

Lots of people are pressured by family to succeed. Lots of people are also having trouble finding a job now, and lots of people deal with health issues and health issues of loved ones.

No wonder this guy's sister doesn't want to deal with it. I'd still say get him the professional help and do what you can DLJ, but don't bother justifying anything he's going through. A lot of people have it a lot worse, this guy sounds like he's had a privileged life (and honestly anyone living in the US has more than likely gotten it to a certain degree at least).

The worst part of this all to me is he wants to kill himself while his daughter is fighting for survival. Give me a break. How can you type all that DLJ and actually sympathize or justify any of it, claiming people are materialistic? This guy needs a slap in the face.

Also what about his wife? I doubt this supposedly traditional Korean guy that's set in the culture would have a child while being unmarried, so what does she think about this?

This is a dangerous route to take.

If you convince the guy, who's kid is terminally ill, not to kill himself for the kid's sake, what happens if/when the kid dies? If he's really serious about killing himself, there will be little stopping him then.

[Arsis]

About A.A.

http://reason.com/archives/2001/05/01/drunk-with-power/

[vanDoug]

Comment.

Pretty cool that a topic of this sensitive nature can stay relatively cool in discussion on this board.

Maybe the I'm not wearing any underwear thread could get a little heated though.

[slats]

Hey Jet Moses...

I agree with most of your points about AA, just not your conclussions. I don't buy into the allergy to alcohol, it being a disease, or that disease doing push-ups. I don't like the courts sending people into program. Not sure where that started, although I think it may've been some misguided AA recruiting.

None of that demonstrates that it doesn't work for the people who are in there because they want to get sober, though. A lot of their slogans... "It works if you work it," "Take what you need and leave the rest," "Stick with the winners," "It's a selfish program," "Step over the bodies," etc., all are about taking care of your own business.

I don't think the rooms of AA can really help who gets thrown in there now. So there's people who don't want to be there, and others who are there because they think it makes them a local celebrity. So what? For people who just can't quit on their own, meetings can make the difference for them. They need to see thru the bullsh!t. Some of that BS might be the people there, and some of it might be the program itself, but certainly anyone who's almost clever enough to just quit cold turkey (which is what AA advocates) should be able to discern what does and doesn't work for them.

It's certainly imperfect. There's no doubt about that. But for a dollar donation, a drunk gets a cup of coffee, a cookie, and a place to be where they won't drink for an hour. That's pretty damn good, IMHO. They can go to as many or as few meetings as they want. They can come for a day, week, month, year, decade... whatever works for them. There's no contract to sign. I don't think too many people get indoctrinated. I'm sure lots of people who never pick up their 5, 10, or 25 year coins never picked up another drink, either. They got what they needed from AA and moved on.

I know I did.

[Jet Moses]

Hey Jet Moses...

I agree with most of your points about AA, just not your conclussions. I don't buy into the allergy to alcohol, it being a disease, or that disease doing push-ups. I don't like the courts sending people into program. Not sure where that started, although I think it may've been some misguided AA recruiting.

None of that demonstrates that it doesn't work for the people who are in there because they want to get sober, though. A lot of their slogans... "It works if you work it," "Take what you need and leave the rest," "Stick with the winners," "It's a selfish program," "Step over the bodies," etc., all are about taking care of your own business.

I don't think the rooms of AA can really help who gets thrown in there now. So there's people who don't want to be there, and others who are there because they think it makes them a local celebrity. So what? For people who just can't quit on their own, meetings can make the difference for them. They need to see thru the bullsh!t. Some of that BS might be the people there, and some of it might be the program itself, but certainly anyone who's almost clever enough to just quit cold turkey (which is what AA advocates) should be able to discern what does and doesn't work for them.

It's certainly imperfect. There's no doubt about that. But for a dollar donation, a drunk gets a cup of coffee, a cookie, and a place to be where they won't drink for an hour. That's pretty damn good, IMHO. They can go to as many or as few meetings as they want. They can come for a day, week, month, year, decade... whatever works for them. There's no contract to sign. I don't think too many people get indoctrinated. I'm sure lots of people who never pick up their 5, 10, or 25 year coins never picked up another drink, either. They got what they needed from AA and moved on.

I know I did.

Slats, I know the program works. I didn't drink for four years.

I just might go back---

No because I think I'm an alcoholic, but because I know that drinking alcohol in excess has no redeeming qualities and it will always keep me back from reaching my potential.

I just hate the whole faking it to make it stuff.

the water can get rough--- you have to be the captain and navigate it, and the crew sometimes understands--- sometimes they don't.

Peace.

GOB_ZoIxQZg&feature=PlayList&p=B770C031FA662717&index=0&playnext=1

[SouthernJet]

I agree 100%. I'm a Roman Catholic, and I wouldn't want to show up for Mass on Sunday with a church full of people who were forced to be there because the court said so. Thats demented and deranged beyond description. Yet, thats what happens in AA. Worse, there is no authority.

Uh dont the priests teach you will go to Hell if you dont go to church and get confession?

[slats]

Slats, I know the program works. I didn't drink for four years.

I just might go back---

No because I think I'm an alcoholic, but because I know that drinking alcohol in excess has no redeeming qualities and it will always keep me back from reaching my potential.

I just hate the whole faking it to make it stuff.

the water can get rough--- you have to be the captain and navigate it, and the crew sometimes understands--- sometimes they don't.

Peace.

GOB_ZoIxQZg&feature=PlayList&p=B770C031FA662717&index=0&playnext=1

Excuse the smiley...

But good luck!