Global Warming My Ass

[slats]

so save the oil until it's obsolete and worthless while we continue to pay OPEC's artificially-high prices until then? i prefer to sell it while it has value, which will generate the wealth necessary to really put the US in the lead of alt energy production that will provide wealth and jobs to our country for generations as we become the new energy source for the world.

You generally pretend to be smarter than this. Oil will never be worthless. There will always be that last piece of machinery that works best on gasoline, or that last country that hasn't converted over to green resources. Those last couple barrels of oil will sell for a gazillion dollars apiece. Whatever that oil is worth today, it will be worth 10-100x (or a lot more) as much 50 years from now.

[johnny green balls]

The founding fathers wrote the constitution at a time when this country's economy was driven almost entirely on slave labor. Not just African slaves, but white indentured servants, too. Laws were in place from day one to make money for the powerful on the sweat of the impoverished. If you didn't own property, you weren't allowed to vote - and most Americans did not own property. The founding fathers set up a system to help themselves and their friends, despite the flowery language of equality and the pursuit of happiness. There was no equality then, and no equality now. Working people have had to fight since day one in this country for any morsel of rights that they've managed to get.

Organized labor got children out of factories, shrank 15 hour workdays into 8 hour workdays. Raised pay and benefits. Damn communists. As you say, unions still have the best health care. The only way workers really get any sort of rights is by organizing. One on one against their corporate bosses, they haven't got a chance.

you realize you can't have this both ways. on the one hand, you rail against "corporate bosses" and "corporate greed" but then you laud higher pay for workers.

if the "corporate bosses" are indeed so greedy all they're gonna do is tack the increased cost of higher salaries onto the price of goods and services that their companies produce which means... the raised salaries to the unionized workers don't go as far as the cost of everything has a built in component to offset the higher wages because you know the fat cats won't take a pay cut, right? or worse yet, these titans of greed will simply move operations to the country with the least controls possible resulting in no more jobs.

i will agree that unions did have a purpose at one point when working conditions were dangerous, unsanitary and hazardous. but now with OSHA and similar regulations, that is no longer the case. the union's primary motive now--to raise compensation in either pay or benefits--only fuels inflation which means, at best, the workers are where they started since their hard-fought raises now buys less stuff. wages must be allowed to be controlled by the market.

there is no free lunch.

[slats]

you realize you can't have this both ways. on the one hand, you rail against "corporate bosses" and "corporate greed" but then you laud higher pay for workers.

if the "corporate bosses" are indeed so greedy all they're gonna do is pass on the increased cost of goods and services that their companies produce which means... the raised salaries to the unionized workers don't go as far as the cost of everything has a built in component to offset the higher wages because you know the fat cats won't take a pay cut, right?

Executive pay has increased at record rates at the same time that unions have lost a lot of their influence. This fact would seem to fly in the face of your hypothesis.

[johnny green balls]

Executive pay has increased at record rates at the same time that unions have lost a lot of their influence. This fact would seem to fly in the face of your hypothesis.

again, if one employee of microsoft's assembly line had never been born bill gates would still be a billionaire. if bill gates had never been born, the employees would be homeless.

let me ask you this: is Steve Jobs overpaid?

[joebabyny]

These companies have made some concessions to workers to keep them from organizing. It's worth it to them to keep them from collectively bargaining. No one gives away anything for nothing. No way those workers would be getting what they do get if not for the work of the auto unions. Not a chance in hell.

The founding fathers wrote the constitution at a time when this country's economy was driven almost entirely on slave labor. Not just African slaves, but white indentured servants, too. Laws were in place from day one to make money for the powerful on the sweat of the impoverished. If you didn't own property, you weren't allowed to vote - and most Americans did not own property. The founding fathers set up a system to help themselves and their friends, despite the flowery language of equality and the pursuit of happiness. There was no equality then, and no equality now. Working people have had to fight since day one in this country for any morsel of rights that they've managed to get.

Organized labor got children out of factories, shrank 15 hour workdays into 8 hour workdays. Raised pay and benefits. Damn communists. As you say, unions still have the best health care. The only way workers really get any sort of rights is by organizing. One on one against their corporate bosses, they haven't got a chance.

The beauty of the constitution is that it was written in a way that it is still relevant today. You may not think so, but a lot of people do.

As for organizing, lol, I am going to assume you are not a business owner who has been forced to have to use union labor, lol, if you were you would change your tune. Try getting anything done in javits or any other convention center. If not for the bribes in addition to the outrageous fees (250 bucks to drag an extension cord 10 feet across the back of your both, nor being allowed to hang your own in booth light fixtures, not being able to do anything that requires a tool) you can't get anything done. For a simple 10 second job that i am more than capable of doing I have to wait 5 hours for a union guy to come buy and charge me a few hundred bucks, and I have to pay my own employee to sit there and wait as well. And then those lovely breaks every 15 minutes, nothing ever gets done. So you know what the outcome is? I can no longer justify the expense of exhibiting at these shows, and a lot of other people are in the same boat so a lot of these trade shows disappear. And guess what, my business still does ok, but I am sure there are union laborers who are hurt by javits being a ghost town while all the big shows go elsewhere.

The labor unions that were responsible for getting children out of sweatshops are nothing like the unions of today. Ho someone that talks about waste and corruption in the privst healthcare sector can champion labor organization is ironic.

And as far as the union vs the boss, the worker needs the boss way more than the boss needs the worker. You can generally get labor anywhere these days, thanks to unions making manufacturing jobs disappear like cake off Oprah's plate, available jobs are not as easy to come by. And the most important thing in capitalism is not the worker, it is the entrepreneur, the risk taker with the ideas. Everyone is expendable except the guy who writes the check, as it should be.

[ZachEY]

simple as this. global warmists insist only massive sacrifices will help prevent climate disaster thus the burden is on them to provide it beyond a reasonable doubt.

the sheer amount of skeptics proves this burden has not yet been carried.

Problem is, as I see it, we're barking up the wrong tree.

A vegan in a Hummer has a smaller carbon footprint than an Omnivore on a bicycle.

But getting people to to sacrifice their SUVs is more likely than their T-Bones.

[joebabyny]

Executive pay has increased at record rates at the same time that unions have lost a lot of their influence. This fact would seem to fly in the face of your hypothesis.

Nope, unions sucked the life out of american manufacturing. Business realized there were alternatives to organized labor both here and abroad and workers realized they didn't need unions to get fair equitable jobs. It all goes back to what is most important, the risk taker. Quality labor is available in lots of places here and abroad. If this country is going to make it cost prohibitive to do business and in effect bite the hand that feeds them, well then business has the right to go wherever they can to do business efficiently.

The removal of the secret ballot, what at one time was the key to organization, is a last ditch scare tactic that unions feel they need to re exert their influence. Why exactly do organizers need to know how each employee is voting?

[johnny green balls]

Problem is, as I see it, we're barking up the wrong tree.

A vegan in a Hummer has a smaller carbon footprint than an Omnivore on a bicycle.

But getting people to to sacrifice their SUVs is more likely than their T-Bones.

i do my part - i eat meat and drive a big car to help prevent the next ice age.

[The Crusher]

Problem is, as I see it, we're barking up the wrong tree.

A vegan in a Hummer has a smaller carbon footprint than an Omnivore on a bicycle.

But getting people to to sacrifice their SUVs is more likely than their T-Bones.

Brilliant and 100% correct.

[slats]

Everyone is expendable except the guy who writes the check, as it should be.

Yes it's true, we disagree.

I think I may've just had enough.

I hope so.

[SouthernJet]

the removal of the secret ballot, what at one time was the key to organization, is a last ditch scare tactic that unions feel they need to re exert their influence. Why exactly do organizers need to know how each employee is voting?

Yup, Union non-secret ballot bill is anti-american and also smells of

[ZachEY]

i do my part - i eat meat and drive a big car to help prevent the next ice age.

I'm simply not educated enough on this topic to debate anything substantially, but my take on all of this:

I think it's obvious that there is some climate change going on. I think it's absurd to think that we can continue to use the resources of a finite planet without consequences. I also think that driving a hybrid useless. The UN says the factory farm industry is the top producer of green house gases, and even if we ignore them, more carbon is released into the environment we mine the metals and then manufacture the car than is released in the life of that vehicle. So really, what you drive is kind of irrelevant. You want to make a difference in transportation, take public only. Get a bike made of bamboo. Beyond that, we've already over populated the planet to a degree that makes a lot of our lifestyle unsustainable. I don't know how we go back from that.

On the American Dream debate of earlier, obviously entrepreneurship should be encouraged. However, we'd be foolish to think that today's America is the same as our parents and grandparents. Cost of living has gone up disproportionately with wages. It's significantly harder to make a living now than it was years ago. My grandfather was small business retailer (my dad took over) and they both made a nice living, but that business can't last any longer. The big chains are all taking a chunk. On my mother's side, her father made a nice living as the owner of a Pharmacy. Try creating a Pharmacy today.

Point being, you didn't need to be brilliant to bring in enough wealth to live a very nice life, you just needed to be hard working and willing to take a risk. Today, hard work is a necessity just to get by, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it's foolish to ignore the differences between the past and present. The middle class is dying, and that's a bad thing for the American family. What to do about it, I don't really know.

You've got a great job, but you're in a position that many people can't be in, first, there are only so many big firm jobs out there, there are only so many top law school slots out there, it's just not viable to think that our ever growing population can all be lawyers... Same goes for Bankers and Doctors. Years ago, people of average intelligence and skill could still do big things, now, not so much.

None of this is to say that you can't dream big, or you shouldn't, hell our whole generation was raised to believe we could all be astronauts. We can't. The problem is that it seems the success rate is only falling and I think there's a fundamental issue when a blue-collar job either doesn't exist, or can't support a family anymore.

I don't know, just my thoughts... I'm not that well read here.

[HessStation]

I'm simply not educated enough on this topic to debate anything substantially, but my take on all of this:

I think it's obvious that there is some climate change going on. I think it's absurd to think that we can continue to use the resources of a finite planet without consequences. I also think that driving a hybrid useless. The UN says the factory farm industry is the top producer of green house gases, and even if we ignore them, more carbon is released into the environment we mine the metals and then manufacture the car than is released in the life of that vehicle. So really, what you drive is kind of irrelevant. You want to make a difference in transportation, take public only. Get a bike made of bamboo. Beyond that, we've already over populated the planet to a degree that makes a lot of our lifestyle unsustainable. I don't know how we go back from that.

On the American Dream debate of earlier, obviously entrepreneurship should be encouraged. However, we'd be foolish to think that today's America is the same as our parents and grandparents. Cost of living has gone up disproportionately with wages. It's significantly harder to make a living now than it was years ago. My grandfather was small business retailer (my dad took over) and they both made a nice living, but that business can't last any longer. The big chains are all taking a chunk. On my mother's side, her father made a nice living as the owner of a Pharmacy. Try creating a Pharmacy today.

Point being, you didn't need to be brilliant to bring in enough wealth to live a very nice life, you just needed to be hard working and willing to take a risk. Today, hard work is a necessity just to get by, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it's foolish to ignore the differences between the past and present. The middle class is dying, and that's a bad thing for the American family. What to do about it, I don't really know.

You've got a great job, but you're in a position that many people can't be in, first, there are only so many big firm jobs out there, there are only so many top law school slots out there, it's just not viable to think that our ever growing population can all be lawyers... Same goes for Bankers and Doctors. Years ago, people of average intelligence and skill could still do big things, now, not so much.

None of this is to say that you can't dream big, or you shouldn't, hell our whole generation was raised to believe we could all be astronauts. We can't. The problem is that it seems the success rate is only falling and I think there's a fundamental issue when a blue-collar job either doesn't exist, or can't support a family anymore.

I don't know, just my thoughts... I'm not that well read here.

I think that when I drive 25 miles North of San Fransico all the way to the Canadian border...f that, to the North Pole...or I drive anywhere through the Mid West/Central section of the United States....Anywhere 100 miles off the East Coast....I laugh at the idea of overpopulation or the overutilization of resources.

Plus we have disease and war to control this. We're all set dudes.

Now crashing meteors from outer space is whole different story.

[ZachEY]

Plus we have disease and war to control this. We're all set dudes.

Apparently not enough.

We need to stop vaccinating, and let nature take it's course. Or, do we need to start vaccinating more?

See what I did there? That's called synergy.

[johnny green balls]

Apparently not enough.

We need to stop vaccinating, and let nature take it's course. Or, do we need to start vaccinating more?

See what I did there? That's called synergy.

we could also replace all the tin foil in blue state stores with lead foil

[CTM]

I'm simply not educated enough on this topic to debate anything substantially, but my take on all of this:

I think it's obvious that there is some climate change going on. I think it's absurd to think that we can continue to use the resources of a finite planet without consequences. I also think that driving a hybrid useless. The UN says the factory farm industry is the top producer of green house gases, and even if we ignore them, more carbon is released into the environment we mine the metals and then manufacture the car than is released in the life of that vehicle. So really, what you drive is kind of irrelevant. You want to make a difference in transportation, take public only. Get a bike made of bamboo. Beyond that, we've already over populated the planet to a degree that makes a lot of our lifestyle unsustainable. I don't know how we go back from that.

On the American Dream debate of earlier, obviously entrepreneurship should be encouraged. However, we'd be foolish to think that today's America is the same as our parents and grandparents. Cost of living has gone up disproportionately with wages. It's significantly harder to make a living now than it was years ago. My grandfather was small business retailer (my dad took over) and they both made a nice living, but that business can't last any longer. The big chains are all taking a chunk. On my mother's side, her father made a nice living as the owner of a Pharmacy. Try creating a Pharmacy today.

Point being, you didn't need to be brilliant to bring in enough wealth to live a very nice life, you just needed to be hard working and willing to take a risk. Today, hard work is a necessity just to get by, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it's foolish to ignore the differences between the past and present. The middle class is dying, and that's a bad thing for the American family. What to do about it, I don't really know.

You've got a great job, but you're in a position that many people can't be in, first, there are only so many big firm jobs out there, there are only so many top law school slots out there, it's just not viable to think that our ever growing population can all be lawyers... Same goes for Bankers and Doctors. Years ago, people of average intelligence and skill could still do big things, now, not so much.

None of this is to say that you can't dream big, or you shouldn't, hell our whole generation was raised to believe we could all be astronauts. We can't. The problem is that it seems the success rate is only falling and I think there's a fundamental issue when a blue-collar job either doesn't exist, or can't support a family anymore.

I don't know, just my thoughts... I'm not that well read here.

Actually why i don't eat meat.. If China and India start to consume at the rates we do there will be war and a lot of suffering over scarce natural resources..

American's act like it's their birthright to be the top dog.. and it's not.. as we will soon find out (goes way beyond the scope of this thread obviousy)

[HessStation]

Apparently not enough.

We need to stop vaccinating, and let nature take it's course. Or, do we need to start vaccinating more?

See what I did there? That's called synergy.

That's called rightousness. You get it. Doomed. We're all doomed I tell you.

[HessStation]

we could also replace all the tin foil in blue state stores with lead foil

Now that. I didn't get. Vroooom. Right over this ignorant americans head.

[johnny green balls]

Actually why i don't eat meat.. If China and India start to consume at the rates we do there will be war and a lot of suffering over scarce natural resources..

American's act like it's their birthright to be the top dog.. and it's not.. as we will soon find out (goes way beyond the scope of this thread obviousy)

there is a finite source of meet. china and india cannot consume as much as we do because i doubt the world can produce that much. thus prices will increase until consumption stays relatively flat or approaches the earth's production capacity (until we install those lunar stockyards).

[joebabyny]

.......

On the American Dream debate of earlier, obviously entrepreneurship should be encouraged. However, we'd be foolish to think that today's America is the same as our parents and grandparents. Cost of living has gone up disproportionately with wages. It's significantly harder to make a living now than it was years ago. My grandfather was small business retailer (my dad took over) and they both made a nice living, but that business can't last any longer. The big chains are all taking a chunk. On my mother's side, her father made a nice living as the owner of a Pharmacy. Try creating a Pharmacy today.

Point being, you didn't need to be brilliant to bring in enough wealth to live a very nice life, you just needed to be hard working and willing to take a risk. Today, hard work is a necessity just to get by, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it's foolish to ignore the differences between the past and present. The middle class is dying, and that's a bad thing for the American family. What to do about it, I don't really know.

You've got a great job, but you're in a position that many people can't be in, first, there are only so many big firm jobs out there, there are only so many top law school slots out there, it's just not viable to think that our ever growing population can all be lawyers... Same goes for Bankers and Doctors. Years ago, people of average intelligence and skill could still do big things, now, not so much.

None of this is to say that you can't dream big, or you shouldn't, hell our whole generation was raised to believe we could all be astronauts. We can't. The problem is that it seems the success rate is only falling and I think there's a fundamental issue when a blue-collar job either doesn't exist, or can't support a family anymore.

I don't know, just my thoughts... I'm not that well read here.

In regard to the big chains, technology is changing that and we may see small light manufacturing coming back around full circle. There was a really interesting story in Wired "The Next Industrial Revolution" that talks about people opening up businesses out of their homes doing light manufacturing. They feature a machine called the makerbot that is a 3d printer that a few guys in brooklyn are building and selling for like 750 a pop that allows you to either download a design or create in a 3d program and print as an actual item. On one hand this opens up the market for people to manufacture small run and one off products right from home without dealing with china, customs, minimums and all the other hassle. The other benefit is near instantanious distribution of goods. Say you are an RC car enthusiast in Ireland, you want a new set of abs plastic gears. The big online retailer is tower hobbies in the us, and the gears are made in china. You have to buy the product that was shipped from china to the us and had that fee tacked on, and you have to pay the shipping and duty from the us to ireland and you have to wait a few days-weeks. If you had a makerbot, you could buy the plans to create it and download it instantly and then print your own. Now you have near instant delivery anywhere in the world with an internet connection. There is a guy who is quite successful from taking these kinds of machines and making weapons for lego figures, http://www.brickarms.com/, and he even quit his regular job and supports his family with this.

I have a background in dealing with manufacturing in asia and all the headaches that involves. I have to say, this kind of technology at affordable prices really excites me. There are awhole host of tools and equipment coming out for the home manufacturer/fabricator, and my head is spinning trying to come up with ideas to utilize it.

So yeah the economy changes, but there is always a way if you can figure it all out.

[johnny green balls]

In regard to the big chains, technology is changing that and we may see small light manufacturing coming back around full circle. There was a really interesting story in Wired "The Next Industrial Revolution" that talks about people opening up businesses out of their homes doing light manufacturing. They feature a machine called the makerbot that is a 3d printer that a few guys in brooklyn are building and selling for like 750 a pop that allows you to either download a design or create in a 3d program and print as an actual item. On one hand this opens up the market for people to manufacture small run and one off products right from home without dealing with china, customs, minimums and all the other hassle. The other benefit is near instantanious distribution of goods. Say you are an RC car enthusiast in Ireland, you want a new set of abs plastic gears. The big online retailer is tower hobbies in the us, and the gears are made in china. You have to buy the product that was shipped from china to the us and had that fee tacked on, and you have to pay the shipping and duty from the us to ireland and you have to wait a few days-weeks. If you had a makerbot, you could buy the plans to create it and download it instantly and then print your own. Now you have near instant delivery anywhere in the world with an internet connection. There is a guy who is quite successful from taking these kinds of machines and making weapons for lego figures, http://www.brickarms.com/, and he even quit his regular job and supports his family with this.

I have a background in dealing with manufacturing in asia and all the headaches that involves. I have to say, this kind of technology at affordable prices really excites me. There are awhole host of tools and equipment coming out for the home manufacturer/fabricator, and my head is spinning trying to come up with ideas to utilize it.

So yeah the economy changes, but there is always a way if you can figure it all out.

i have seen these 3d printers in action and let me say they are impressive. you can even make items with complex moving parts kind of like how you can carve interlocking rings out of one piece of wood.

[joebabyny]

i have seen these 3d printers in action and let me say they are impressive. you can even make items with complex moving parts kind of like how you can carve interlocking rings out of once piece of wood.

Yeah, some of them can do some crazy stuff. They have been prohibitively expensive until these guys started building kits out of a warehouse in brooklyn. For 750 bucks you can have your own. It has some limitations, mostly in the size of the items they can make, but this really is just the beginning. There are also cheap cnc machines and other fabricating tools coming to market that will shatter the barrier of entry. That article i linked above also talks about using an open source model to build a pretty sophisticated off road vehicle. There is a whole wave of innovation that nobody is talking about that is about to wash in.

WOW this thread goes all over the place, lol

[CTM]

there is a finite source of meet. china and india cannot consume as much as we do because i doubt the world can produce that much. thus prices will increase until consumption stays relatively flat or approaches the earth's production capacity (until we install those lunar stockyards).

Oil finite too.. as is grains.. China's been buying up fertilzier lately..

The point is that the more like us they become the more we began to compete for the thigns that fuel our gluttony..

[johnny green balls]

Oil finite too.. as is grains.. China's been buying up fertilzier lately..

The point is that the more like us they become the more we began to compete for the thigns that fuel our gluttony..

true and all the more reason to break out the roughnecks and hardhats.

[El Gringo Loco]

In regard to the big chains, technology is changing that and we may see small light manufacturing coming back around full circle. There was a really interesting story in Wired "The Next Industrial Revolution" that talks about people opening up businesses out of their homes doing light manufacturing. They feature a machine called the makerbot that is a 3d printer that a few guys in brooklyn are building and selling for like 750 a pop that allows you to either download a design or create in a 3d program and print as an actual item. On one hand this opens up the market for people to manufacture small run and one off products right from home without dealing with china, customs, minimums and all the other hassle. The other benefit is near instantanious distribution of goods. Say you are an RC car enthusiast in Ireland, you want a new set of abs plastic gears. The big online retailer is tower hobbies in the us, and the gears are made in china. You have to buy the product that was shipped from china to the us and had that fee tacked on, and you have to pay the shipping and duty from the us to ireland and you have to wait a few days-weeks. If you had a makerbot, you could buy the plans to create it and download it instantly and then print your own. Now you have near instant delivery anywhere in the world with an internet connection. There is a guy who is quite successful from taking these kinds of machines and making weapons for lego figures, http://www.brickarms.com/, and he even quit his regular job and supports his family with this.

I have a background in dealing with manufacturing in asia and all the headaches that involves. I have to say, this kind of technology at affordable prices really excites me. There are awhole host of tools and equipment coming out for the home manufacturer/fabricator, and my head is spinning trying to come up with ideas to utilize it.

So yeah the economy changes, but there is always a way if you can figure it all out.

I just read an article in Popular Mechanics Magazine, Jay Leno has one, Amazing!!!! Being a car guy I want one Bad!

Here is a link to the video, middle of the page on the left.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4320759.html

[CTM]

It's no longer called Global Warming. It's now referred to as Climate Change. You know, to suit the agenda. Call it "re-branding." Similar to Gatorade calling itself "G."

Personally, I'm slightly insulted by it. The liberal loonies work under the assumption that the American Public are retarded sheep, generally speaking. I can't wait 'till the next election to prove them wrong. Massachusetts already did - never been prouder to be a m@ssh*ole.

Ever think why the rebranding was neccesary?

Cause Rush and the rest of the true sheep dittoheads couldn't digger deeper then the word "warming" in " Global warming".. leading to dumbfounded comments everytime it snows or is cold out "so much for global warming"

The truth is that much deeper then most on yoru side of the aisle is willing to look, hence the need for rebranding. Rush is about as dumb as they come in terms of this and his follower lop it up and regurgitate ad nauseum..

[CTM]

true and all the more reason to break out the roughnecks and hardhats.

Conservation or war is coming.. take your pick

[johnny green balls]

Conservation or war is coming.. take your pick

if there is war it will not be because we are producing too much oil; it will be because we are producing too little.

[HessStation]

I liked where EY was going. We're screwed either way. Right or Left pick your poison, which way you want to die.

I for one have kept my starry eyes up towards the sky all night. It's coming gentlemen. The big one is coming.

Too fast for the Republicans to nuke half the world and thus get America nuked in retaliation. Too fast for the whiny liberals who will be so concerned Suzy whose real name is Scott got picked last again for kick-ball that they didn't see the warheads coming from the S. Korea. Too fast for my wifes hairspray to give everyone and their children skin cancer. Too fast for my SUV to cause a tidal wave that knocks North and South America back into the Atlantic...or Pacific Ocean, b/c they won't really know what to call it. Too fast for the Angora Rabbit to infect us all with some deadly virus that causes blindness, flagellation, then death. Too fast for the Muslims, Russians, Germans, Moraccans, Bloods, Crips, Senators, Lawyers, Doctors, Teachers, Trees and/or Leprechauns to take us down.

It will come from the sky. My dead Myan nana told me so.

[ZachEY]

In regard to the big chains, technology is changing that and we may see small light manufacturing coming back around full circle. There was a really interesting story in Wired "The Next Industrial Revolution" that talks about people opening up businesses out of their homes doing light manufacturing. They feature a machine called the makerbot that is a 3d printer that a few guys in brooklyn are building and selling for like 750 a pop that allows you to either download a design or create in a 3d program and print as an actual item. On one hand this opens up the market for people to manufacture small run and one off products right from home without dealing with china, customs, minimums and all the other hassle. The other benefit is near instantanious distribution of goods. Say you are an RC car enthusiast in Ireland, you want a new set of abs plastic gears. The big online retailer is tower hobbies in the us, and the gears are made in china. You have to buy the product that was shipped from china to the us and had that fee tacked on, and you have to pay the shipping and duty from the us to ireland and you have to wait a few days-weeks. If you had a makerbot, you could buy the plans to create it and download it instantly and then print your own. Now you have near instant delivery anywhere in the world with an internet connection. There is a guy who is quite successful from taking these kinds of machines and making weapons for lego figures, http://www.brickarms.com/, and he even quit his regular job and supports his family with this.

I have a background in dealing with manufacturing in asia and all the headaches that involves. I have to say, this kind of technology at affordable prices really excites me. There are awhole host of tools and equipment coming out for the home manufacturer/fabricator, and my head is spinning trying to come up with ideas to utilize it.

So yeah the economy changes, but there is always a way if you can figure it all out.

Very cool tech.

But why do I feel like it will be used primarily to make dildos?

[JerryK]

I live in Michigan, and consult with manufacturing companies. Here's my spin on things. (For the record, I consider this an economic statement, and NOT a political one).

China:

Labor is cheaper. Products with high labor-per-unit ratios will come from the area of the world where labor is cheap. We could slow this a bit and benefit from it, but it won't happen due to the design of our political system.

There are manufacturers who do ok in the US.

-Pharmaceuticals: Laws preventing import of critical drugs help us, and create good manufacturing jobs. This isn't why drugs are expensive here; drug costs have risen sharply mostly from the rise in tv advertising they've been doing in the last 15 years or so.

-Food: Again, importing food full of Chinese lead won't be popular, so we're likely to keep the twinkie factories here at full production. My brother's automotive tool-die employer failed last year (just when he attained 20yrs experience and 2 kids in college). Today he's making a pittance per hour, but he's working overtime at a company making cake mix for Duncan Hines, etc.

-Things made 'quickly': Screws, nails, sugar packets, etc come out of their machines like water out of a firehose. As such, the labor-per-unit is a small enough fraction that moving overseas isn't much of an advantage.

-Long term: Chinese wages will come up. It'll probably take about 25 years. But by then, we'll have just moved on to another 3rd world country.

What I wish:

-That we could grow some stones as a nation and define several "value verticals" whose manufacture keeps the greatest number of people employed. (doesn't have to be automotive, that's not my agenda).

-Give those verticals, like we've already done for Pharm/Food, a status making it tough to import the finished goods. ( A few years back we tried limiting the import of steel. -- this was stupid, it failed, and is not applicable to what I'm suggesting here. The results of that action do not suggest what would happen with limits on FG imports..again, Pharm/Food are doing well)

-We need to be open to the possibility that our Government can occasionally be a tool we can leverage to our benefit. Placing a big 'socialism' sticker on any single idea that might protect our nation's wealth is allowing our international competitors to slowly defeat us without firing a shot. Economic anarchy is as dangerous to us as socialism. The former is receiving a lot of enthusiasm without a lot of empirical evidence of its long-term viability.

I spent the first 38 years of my life being a committed conservative. The last 3, well, not so much. I feel priviledged to have seen clearly both sides of the fence. In the '90s Pat Buchannan didn't like Nafta, and a Democrat signed it into law. Now, everybody's switched sides. I assess the policy based on its strengthening (or not) of the country. It hasn't, and Pat was right. And I'm not very right. Go figure.

(and since this is a global warming thread, I think Nuclear Power is a good idea. Thought I'd throw that in for anyone wanting to peg me as a "lefty")

[slats]

-Pharmaceuticals: Laws preventing import of critical drugs help us, and create good manufacturing jobs. This isn't why drugs are expensive here; drug costs have risen sharply mostly from the rise in tv advertising they've been doing in the last 15 years or so.

The US is one of only a couple countries in the world that allow prescription drug companies to advertise on TV. They prevent cigarette companies from advertising, they should prevent these pharmaceuticals from doing the same.

What I wish:

-That we could grow some stones as a nation and define several "value verticals" whose manufacture keeps the greatest number of people employed. (doesn't have to be automotive, that's not my agenda).

-Give those verticals, like we've already done for Pharm/Food, a status making it tough to import the finished goods. ( A few years back we tried limiting the import of steel. -- this was stupid, it failed, and is not applicable to what I'm suggesting here. The results of that action do not suggest what would happen with limits on FG imports..again, Pharm/Food are doing well)

-We need to be open to the possibility that our Government can occasionally be a tool we can leverage to our benefit. Placing a big 'socialism' sticker on any single idea that might protect our nation's wealth is allowing our international competitors to slowly defeat us without firing a shot. Economic anarchy is as dangerous to us as socialism. The former is receiving a lot of enthusiasm without a lot of empirical evidence of its long-term viability.

Your wish list ties into my hopes and dreams for green energy. The gov't should be subsidizing the small companies with the best green energy concepts rather than the oil companies, and be working with these clever entrepreneurs to get their products to market. Local stimulus like tax breaks for putting solar panels on our houses helps, too. As production of these products grows, cost per item decreases. The US, with their educated workforce, should be the world leader on these products. Solar panels, wind turbines, viable fuel cells, etc. The rest of the world caught up and surpassed us in cars and electronics, but we can get out in front with green energy.

These could be Silicon Valley jobs, and Flint, Michigan jobs. It's a massive win-win as it's good for the environment, and good for the economy. Good commerce doesn't have to destroy the planet. One of the major problems I have with Big Oil is that they do everything in their power to stand in the way of any kind of alternate power sources. Idiots would be smarter to invest in it.

[slats]

(and since this is a global warming thread, I think Nuclear Power is a good idea. Thought I'd throw that in for anyone wanting to peg me as a "lefty")

Won't help. I'm pro nukes, but I've already been pegged as left of Lenin. I just think they need to do it smarter. 1000MW plants are a bad idea, a set of 200MW plants is much better.

[joebabyny]

Very cool tech.

But why do I feel like it will be used primarily to make dildos?

Yup, if they could make objects that big I would already be in business, lol

[Bob]

Why are we worrying about any of this? Isn't some giant superguy in the sky going to scoop us all up and take us to a farm where we can chase squirrels for ever and ever?