Mafia Game Thread--The Thing

[Pac]

how is typing c-o-p instead of d-o-c a typo?

lol... you must be in your glory.

F you all.

really.

[JustInFudge]

cute.. but the thing not to like is your reemergence out of whatever big wig's ass you had been firmly implanted in occured about 5 minutes after being called out on your abscence.

Certainly a talented scum hunter such as yourself can connect the dots on what this could imply

you're BFF's with klecko and hang out irl. never jealous of you, could i be. Pity is better word

Yeah, I had no idea wtf any of you were really talking about early on.

I figured a vote on Crusher, following yours, would let us know how you really felt. What I didn't know was the part it being your style to make "humorous bogus cases."

Thanks for that.

This.

It basically makes it obvious that he has time to lurk within a 5 minute margin of when his name is brought up... but we are expected to believe that he is pre-occupied with work.

and his read through and comment was focused solely on self defense and playing a little grab ass with the guys.. the fruity little prick..

a lot more then that has transpired since he last graced us with his under rated presence..

Sorry fellas...work sucks. I was actually typing up a post on my thoughts on those that are being voted, but someone walked in my office. I saved my thoughts and I will post them later...probably around 8ish, since I'm playing hoops after work.

I wasnt lurking, just coincidence. It happens.

[CTM]

lol... you must be in your glory.

F you all.

really.

Actually no. I'm not voting you and don't plan to unless you are on a competing train with someone who seems less scummy

[Bleedin Green]

lol... you must be in your glory.

F you all.

really.

You're the one who felt compelled to bring it up. We can sit here and argue about it all day, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing I regret from last game is voting AVM instead of CTM. But none of that matters in this game.

I don't find you overly scummy (at least no more than usual) and feel like its mostly taking the easy way out on day one going after the guy who is typically very reactionary to questions. On the flip side, I still find it very intriguing that a guy like JVoR reacted so harshly to the slightest questioning going his way, especially when he was so quick to try to dismiss it and move on (but not without throwing another barb my way, clearly showing it was clearly bothering him a little too much). I'm much happier voting him than either you or I28.

[SMC]

how is typing c-o-p instead of d-o-c a typo?

Duh, both have a "c" and an "o"

[Bleedin Green]

Duh, both have a "c" and an "o"

Not to mention the p is just an upside-down d.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

You're the one who felt compelled to bring it up. We can sit here and argue about it all day, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing I regret from last game is voting AVM instead of CTM. But none of that matters in this game.

I don't find you overly scummy (at least no more than usual) and feel like its mostly taking the easy way out on day one going after the guy who is typically very reactionary to questions. On the flip side, I still find it very intriguing that a guy like JVoR reacted so harshly to the slightest questioning going his way, especially when he was so quick to try to dismiss it and move on (but not without throwing another barb my way, clearly showing it was clearly bothering him a little too much). I'm much happier voting him than either you or I28.

I think that's a bit of an extreme characterization. I'm still on him mostly because to me he came up with a feeble argument against me after I applied some pressure on him. I asked him to elaborate on his reasoning because to me "blathering" doesn't tell me much.

and lol at you thinking it has anything to do with it bothering me. Did I say anything that was untrue? You make it to end game as scum primarily because you pick your spots to pick and pop at the end of wagons. And to be honest, you're flying under the radar like you always tend to do. There's more than one way to apply pressure and get a response, it doesn't always have to be a vote.

[Pac]

You're the one who felt compelled to bring it up. We can sit here and argue about it all day, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing I regret from last game is voting AVM instead of CTM. But none of that matters in this game..

Not sure why you're continuing with this. Your vote was on me long before I argued for 5 hours then commited the sin of a typo. cop and doc share common letters and have the same number of syllables... it's not as dramatic an error as you make it seem.

I don't find you overly scummy (at least no more than usual) and feel like its mostly taking the easy way out on day one going after the guy who is typically very reactionary to questions. On the flip side, I still find it very intriguing that a guy like JVoR reacted so harshly to the slightest questioning going his way, especially when he was so quick to try to dismiss it and move on (but not without throwing another barb my way, clearly showing it was clearly bothering him a little too much). I'm much happier voting him than either you or I28.

Well JVOR is my 1 and I28 is my 1A. With so much unwarranted heat on me I have to go with the guy more likely to get lynched. Same as you did last game with Kleck... I'd personally prefer JVOR but unless there's a movement towards him I'm comfortable with my 2nd choice.

[AVM]

You're the one who felt compelled to bring it up. We can sit here and argue about it all day, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing I regret from last game is voting AVM instead of CTM. But none of that matters in this game.

I don't find you overly scummy (at least no more than usual) and feel like its mostly taking the easy way out on day one going after the guy who is typically very reactionary to questions. On the flip side, I still find it very intriguing that a guy like JVoR reacted so harshly to the slightest questioning going his way, especially when he was so quick to try to dismiss it and move on (but not without throwing another barb my way, clearly showing it was clearly bothering him a little too much). I'm much happier voting him than either you or I28.

Oh yeah....you suck

[Pac]

I think that's a bit of an extreme characterization. I'm still on him mostly because to me he came up with a feeble argument against me.

Your vote and subsequent crusade against me is because I wasn't active for the first 9 hours yesterday slappy.

Why aren't you talking about your Pilates partner Dan X who hasn't been around since she voted me because I went after you last night?

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Your vote and subsequent crusade against me is because I wasn't active for the first 9 hours yesterday slappy.

Why aren't you talking about your Pilates partner Dan X who hasn't been around since she voted me because I went after you last night?

Because I happen to know Dan X is legitimately busy with real life stuff. You could've been making sweet love to a baboon or making **** up as scum for all i know.

I already explained why I kept my vote on you, but keep acting like all i've said that rubbed me wrong about you was you not being around at the start of the game.

[The Crusher]

Im really struggling here. I keep reading this thread and though caustic as usual Pac is really just being Pac. So hard with him because he's an absolute a tool as a townie and so easy to want to kill.

Bleeding Green's post about Pac being easy to go after because he is such an overeactvie toolbag is kinda hitting me like Danx's defense of Slats. Kinda makes sense.

Yet neither JVOR or Integrity is pinging me. So rather than take the easy way out and lynch old nasty caustic smelly Pac Im going to back off and re-read. But if I find out at the end of the game Bleedin and Pac are scummates and I was duped I will beat you both over the head with a stick of pepperoni. then eat it cause it's yummy.

Also Pac did do a good job last game locating the scum just is such a dink nobody wanted to listen to him. Besides it's kinda funner to verbally abuse him than lynch him. At least for now.

unvote

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I also don't view it as coincidence that your top 2 happen to be the first few people voting you, Pac.

[The Crusher]

Because I happen to know Dan X is legitimately busy with real life stuff. You could've been making sweet love to a baboon or making **** up as scum for all i know.

I already explained why I kept my vote on you, but keep acting like all i've said that rubbed me wrong about you was you not being around at the start of the game.

Hmmmmm. Not sure I like this. Dan X mysteriously gone and Sweet Boopsie mysteriously busy at work. I feel a Hagendaz moment coming.

[slats]

I think the Pac train is scumdiddlyiscious. That's definitely my take right now. He's an easy mark, and he's being targeted.

This Crusher post reeks:

I love pork chops.

Got a chance to read thru since leaving the game last night and though I need to go back thru again this is what I think so far about the vote getters.

Integrity- Interesting train. Seems to be based on his on and off vote of me. Strange indeed but not sure too scummy. First off people jump on and off scum hunting alot. CTM did it earlier but didn;t get noticed, cause thats what he does. Integrity defended himself pretty well and we need to keep in mind he is only in his second game. I'm leaning towards noob finding his way on this one and doing pretty well at it.

JVOR- Toiugh one for me because he pwned my jumbo azz in the crazy cop game and now I sorta have mafia induced mild disdain for him. His reaction seemed a little heatd towards Pac but Pac is Pac. My challenge with him being scum is he has made some pretty town friendly post. Now I know scum does that at times, but Im not feeling that. Besides I think alot of his game meachanics discussion was early enough in the game to not be a mafia distraction and seemed genuine.

Pac- Oh Pac. Our lady friends second choice. He did seem to come into the game quiet and got to be Pac "the destroyer" rather quickly when called on it. Also his case against Integerity kinda border on bullying, which is 100% normal for Pac, but still makes me nervous. Pac is such a hard call because he is usually so brutal as town it's hard to get a feel for him as scum. Though Vic's talk about the timing of Pac's typical nonsense actually makes sense to me. It does seem l.ike Pac caught himself not being Pac enough and decided to go ito full Pac mode. Plus to put it bluntly, short of him possibly having a town role, he is really not of much value to the town. Some may say an actual detriment, alot like his palsy walsy CTM.

Nothing else on anyone seems to stick out to me. Slats was my early favorite but Dan X made some good points and even my second time through he seems a little off but fine.

So I'll vote: PAC

Partly because of his timing coming into the game and then deciding to get all Paccy on everyone and secodnly because if an innocent does die today it may as well be the second most dangerous one to the town. If he got somevotes I would also kill CTM for the same reason. Well that and for fun.

Of the three vote getters, I still like I28 the best. I'm not married to it, but Crusher's defense of him here isn't helping. I28 has hit every easy mark so far from me, to Crusher (really quick with the on & off), and now Pac. I'm staying there for now.

My first vote on Crusher was just an early prod, and a reaction to JiF - who I've also got a mild FOS for with the quick reappearance on cue. But Crusher's "case" against Pac here is exactly the kind of thing I like to do as scum. Target a guy I think I can get lynched, and plant the idea that if he's town we're better off without him, anyway.

[Vicious89x]

Ok, I'm done waiting around. There have been enough points made for me to find it compelling

Vote: I28

[slats]

Also Pac did do a good job last game locating the scum just is such a dink nobody wanted to listen to him. Besides it's kinda funner to verbally abuse him than lynch him. At least for now.

unvote

I need to learn to type faster.

[SMC]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 1

JVoR (1) -- Bleedin' Green

Integrity (4) -- CTM, slats, Pac, Vicious

Pac (3) -- Integrity, JVoR, DanX

Sharrow (1) -- AVM

With 12 Research Team Members, it takes 7 to torch.

[The Crusher]

I think the Pac train is scumdiddlyiscious. That's definitely my take right now. He's an easy mark, and he's being targeted.

This Crusher post reeks:

Of the three vote getters, I still like I28 the best. I'm not married to it, but Crusher's defense of him here isn't helping. I28 has hit every easy mark so far from me, to Crusher (really quick with the on & off), and now Pac. I'm staying there for now.

My first vote on Crusher was just an early prod, and a reaction to JiF - who I've also got a mild FOS for with the quick reappearance on cue. But Crusher's "case" against Pac here is exactly the kind of thing I like to do as scum. Target a guy I think I can get lynched, and plant the idea that if he's town we're better off without him, anyway.

Actually Slats it's exactly what I like to do when I scum hunt. I find someone who is an easy mark. Spit a case to get people looking at it. jump on and see who bites. The thing is Vic jumped off and that lowered Pac to L3. So I hung out a little and read what everyone typed and the reactions it got. Bleedin made a great point and I listened and decided I hung out enough. Truth be told I would still kill Slats but more interested on doing my best to find scum. Dan X defense of you is the only reason I came off you earlier.

[AVM]

Alright, I'm gaining nothing on the Sharrow front obv. I want to get competing trains going, as I mentioned earlier, so I will unvote, vote: Integrity. Like I said, the Crusher/slats conversation bothered me not so much for Crusher and slats, but just the immense amount of suspicion about absolutely nothing, along with voting/unvoting so quickly.

The biggest thing that stuck out to me for Integrity was his comment along the lines of his vote was to find out why others were on Crusher. Just seems a little odd to me, when everyone on the first real life day votes for joking reasons.

I know it kinda got mixed up there, so I just wanted to quote it for ya -- my votes switched to I28

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 1

JVoR (1) -- Bleedin' Green

Integrity (4) -- CTM, slats, Pac, Vicious

Pac (3) -- Integrity, JVoR, DanX

Sharrow (1) -- AVM

With 12 Research Team Members, it takes 7 to torch.

This puts (with Vics vote) I28 at L-2, FYI

[JustInFudge]

Alright, got a sec to post my thoughts. I'm still FOS'ing those I did yesterday for the same reasons...no one has changed their play or done anything to take my finger off...at this point.

So I'll address those being targeted...

JVOR - seems town to me. People got on him for basically agreeing with me that discussing game set ups in depth on the first day is great and all, but doenst really help hunt scum. IMHO it plays to the hands of the mafia, especially if they are the ones posting these wild therios. Makes a lot more sense to start discussing possible game set ups once we've gained some intel on day 2...especially since SMC dropped some hints.

Pac - we all run into the same problem every game with Pac. He's a dip**** and makes him easy to lynch. In one of the alt games, I got locked on his dip**** attitude once he out'ed the entire town of their power roles, yet he was town. However, in the long run, if he wasnt lynched...I think the mafia would have been able to keep setting me up and lighting the fuel to the fire. In the end, I was able to change my decision and vote the remaining scum and help the town win once Pac was out of the way. Though it took a last minute unvote and change of heart.

I28 - dont like his play at all. He's going the deflection route big time and is playing quite defensive. If we had to choose from these 3, he'd be my choice since I already FOS'd him yesterday once he followed me on my "shark tooth necklace" case against Muffin Top. Then the quick unvote was unsettling.

All that said, I still cant get over DanX (my squeeze) defense of Slats. It was too overt and I dont understand it at all. At this point, I'd say DanX would be my choice because of what we would learn. Or at least what I'd think we would learn.

I'm holding off votes until I get back from hoops tonight.

[SMC]

Thanks, AVM.

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT--DAY 1

JVoR (1) -- Bleedin' Green

Integrity (5) -- CTM, slats, Pac, Vicious, AVM

Pac (3) -- Integrity, JVoR, DanX

With 12 Research Team Members, it takes 7 to torch.

[slats]

Actually Slats it's exactly what I like to do when I scum hunt. I find someone who is an easy mark. Spit a case to get people looking at it. jump on and see who bites. The thing is Vic jumped off and that lowered Pac to L3. So I hung out a little and read what everyone typed and the reactions it got. Bleedin made a great point and I listened and decided I hung out enough. Truth be told I would still kill Slats but more interested on doing my best to find scum. Dan X defense of you is the only reason I came off you earlier.

That's cool. I didn't like that post. You jumped off before I could even tell you I didn't like it. I'll have to play that out in my head a little bit. You could be doing exactly what you say. I haven't switched my vote yet.

Dan X understands me. This is why I need a woman therapist.

Really not thrilled with the I28 train all of a sudden...

[Dan.]

Hi, everyone! I'm home for the evening and going to catch up.

Unvote: Pac while I read.

[CTM]

Really not thrilled with the I28 train all of a sudden...

I like it.. but not with him at a BB game..

Going to unvote until he gets back on tonight and defends.

Make no mistake, he is still my favorite for scum, and i have a willingness to vote anyone from Crusher, Pac, Jvor, Jif also..

[SMC]

MOD NOTE: I will be commuting and be back on the computer in a few hours.

Intergity is now at L-2. Considering his well-publicized reason for his absence this evening (ball game starts at 7 so he's probably off the computer now), I am preemptively dissalowing any hammer vote in my absence and until he checks back into the game.

That is the only fair thing to do.

Be advised that I will make the same accomodation for every other player in this game in similar situations. Just let me know.

[CTM]

I like it.. but not with him at a BB game..

Going to unvote until he gets back on tonight and defends.

Make no mistake, he is still my favorite for scum, and i have a willingness to vote anyone from Crusher, Pac, Jvor, Jif also..

wooops Unvote I28

[CTM]

MOD NOTE: I will be commuting and be back on the computer in a few hours.

Intergity is now at L-2. Considering his well-publicized reason for his absence this evening (ball game starts at 7 so he's probably off the computer now), I am preemptively dissalowing any hammer vote in my absence and until he checks back into the game.

That is the only fair thing to do.

Be advised that I will make the same accomodation for every other player in this game in similar situations. Just let me know.

ok then vote I28

[slats]

I28 - dont like his play at all. He's going the deflection route big time and is playing quite defensive. If we had to choose from these 3, he'd be my choice since I already FOS'd him yesterday once he followed me on my "shark tooth necklace" case against Muffin Top. Then the quick unvote was unsettling.

Hmmm...

I voted Crusher around the same time, and while I quoted your post about your sharktooth necklace when I did, it was really the post you made right before it that caught my interest.

Muffin top, this is lame, geeky and unacceptable behavior assuming that everyone knows about the game set up's over at McCreepy Mafia Zone.

FOS all over you, scrumptious.

Also, there's really solid conversation about possible game set ups right now. I read this as posturing and scummy, looks like some folks are dangling strings for some to grasp only to be controlled the rest of the way. I'm watching you ET type mofo's.

Now both of you are talking about the sharktooth case, and the joke it was. Building cases from there. It's curious.

[Pac]

Pac - we all run into the same problem every game with Pac. He's a dip**** and makes him easy to lynch. In one of the alt games, I got locked on his dip**** attitude once he out'ed the entire town of their power roles, yet he was town. However, in the long run, if he wasnt lynched...I think the mafia would have been able to keep setting me up and lighting the fuel to the fire.

aww I knew you liked me.

In the end, I was able to change my decision and vote the remaining scum and help the town win once Pac was out of the way. Though it took a last minute unvote and change of heart.

You really are an underrated poster.

[Pac]

JVOR - seems town to me. People got on him for basically agreeing with me that discussing game set ups in depth on the first day is great and all, but doenst really help hunt scum. IMHO it plays to the hands of the mafia, especially if they are the ones posting these wild therios. Makes a lot more sense to start discussing possible game set ups once we've gained some intel on day 2...especially since SMC dropped some hints.

If I can be serious for a minute this is fishy. Can you point out the exchange you and JVOR had where he said it wasn't productive to be overly analytical on day 1? In fact that's what I've been trying to say all along (see below) and a big reason he's on my radar.

And again I welcome talk about the couple possibilities that exist but this isn't calculus. The opening scene is pretty cut and dry in terms of what looks to be going on. I think spending time overanalyzing every detail tends to get people paying more attention to possible roles than looking for the Xena's. At this point I think we should concentrate on the latter and re-visit the game mechanics once we've had a night phase and are more equipped to theorize.

[Dan.]

Sorry for my absence. I'm finishing up my Master's degree, so my schedule these days is a bit erratic between work and classes. Some days I have time to sit down at a computer, and other days the best I can hope for is a moment on my iPhone in the bathroom, haha. But I will at least be around most evenings.

To clarify for you, Pac, I voted for you not because you weren't posting in the beginning. I voted because once it was brought up, you appeared and went into overdrive with your confrontational style of play. I didn't see the logic of your attacks against Integrity or your suspicions of CTM's "lobbying" (which he often does). So I wasn't, and still am not, sure if it was a response to the questions asked about you, or if it was you simply being yourself.

I'm suspicious of Integrity for the obvious reason, but since it's only his second game, it's not too far-fetched that he just didn't know what he was doing. I don't feel comfortable lynching him for it right now.

Crusher's case on Pac (to put him a L-2) really caught my eye. And then his explanation ...

Actually Slats it's exactly what I like to do when I scum hunt. I find someone who is an easy mark. Spit a case to get people looking at it. jump on and see who bites. The thing is Vic jumped off and that lowered Pac to L3. So I hung out a little and read what everyone typed and the reactions it got. Bleedin made a great point and I listened and decided I hung out enough. Truth be told I would still kill Slats but more interested on doing my best to find scum. Dan X defense of you is the only reason I came off you earlier.

What strikes me as weird about this is that he made his big case pretty late, at L-2. At that point, are you really stating a case to see who bites? There were already four people biting. More likely, you're making a case for a lynch. A really easy lynch.

Vote: Crusher

[Pac]

To clarify for you, Pac, I voted for you not because you weren't posting in the beginning. I voted because once it was brought up, you appeared and went into overdrive with your confrontational style of play. I didn't see the logic of your attacks against Integrity or your suspicions of CTM's "lobbying" (which he often does). So I wasn't, and still am not, sure if it was a response to the questions asked about you, or if it was you simply being yourself.

I understand but if I come in here polite and cordial then people start interpreting that as me playing differently so something must be wrong. It's too late for this game but next one I want to make it clear early that I'm toning it down a bit. In actuality I'm really a nice guy and would feel bad if I thought I really hurt someones feelings.. even e-feelings... so uhh maybe we can talk about me further over dinner or something? CTM can probably get us a coupon to Popeyes or something.

As to your point about my early play.... I believe that on day 1 it's a good idea to spread around my "love" and see what develops. If me being jerky gets scum to flinch than it's worth it -- even if it gets me voted off in the process.

I'd be happy to clear up any questions anyone has about why I'm voting the way I do.

Ok off to the gym...... cause I'm buff.

[The Crusher]

Sorry for my absence. I'm finishing up my Master's degree, so my schedule these days is a bit erratic between work and classes. Some days I have time to sit down at a computer, and other days the best I can hope for is a moment on my iPhone in the bathroom, haha. But I will at least be around most evenings.

To clarify for you, Pac, I voted for you not because you weren't posting in the beginning. I voted because once it was brought up, you appeared and went into overdrive with your confrontational style of play. I didn't see the logic of your attacks against Integrity or your suspicions of CTM's "lobbying" (which he often does). So I wasn't, and still am not, sure if it was a response to the questions asked about you, or if it was you simply being yourself.

I'm suspicious of Integrity for the obvious reason, but since it's only his second game, it's not too far-fetched that he just didn't know what he was doing. I don't feel comfortable lynching him for it right now.

Crusher's case on Pac (to put him a L-2) really caught my eye. And then his explanation ...

What strikes me as weird about this is that he made his big case pretty late, at L-2. At that point, are you really stating a case to see who bites? There were already four people biting. More likely, you're making a case for a lynch. A really easy lynch.

Vote: Crusher

My case on Pac was supposed to catch your eye. Thats how Big Crush rolls girl. I already stated that the case on Integrity looks more like a noob caught in the headlights. The JVOR case was just as bad because I felt he was actually making some pro-town choices.

Now everyone knows Pac is a loud mouth and a target. By jumping on him at L2 I was hoping to see if someone actually made the vote to L1. This would be pretty damming in my experience. But moreso it's what I do to scumhunt and get people to start talking.

What I like to do when I scumhunt is put people together and make a list of who's covering up for who, defending who and what not. So later in the game when people start dying off and roles are revealed I use this to determine who may be scum teamates.

Like now. I feel strong that you and Slats are on the same team. Not sure of your alignment, but I think you defending him gives me that. Now I feel Pac and Vicare teamates, once again not knowing the alignemnt but knowing the connection. Also Bleeding dropped some knowledge so he has a casual relation as well.

So I got descent info on Vic and little bit on Bleedin.

Also if you read my case on him I basically base it on him being an unlikeable prick when he plays. A detriment to the town. Not exactly rock solid. But enough to get a lazy scumster to take a shot at getting him ready for the box.

[CTM]

Sorry for my absence. I'm finishing up my Master's degree, so my schedule these days is a bit erratic between work and classes. Some days I have time to sit down at a computer, and other days the best I can hope for is a moment on my iPhone in the bathroom, haha. But I will at least be around most evenings.

To clarify for you, Pac, I voted for you not because you weren't posting in the beginning. I voted because once it was brought up, you appeared and went into overdrive with your confrontational style of play. I didn't see the logic of your attacks against Integrity or your suspicions of CTM's "lobbying" (which he often does). So I wasn't, and still am not, sure if it was a response to the questions asked about you, or if it was you simply being yourself.

I'm suspicious of Integrity for the obvious reason, but since it's only his second game, it's not too far-fetched that he just didn't know what he was doing. I don't feel comfortable lynching him for it right now.

Crusher's case on Pac (to put him a L-2) really caught my eye. And then his explanation ...

What strikes me as weird about this is that he made his big case pretty late, at L-2. At that point, are you really stating a case to see who bites? There were already four people biting. More likely, you're making a case for a lynch. A really easy lynch.

Vote: Crusher

Crusher was my first suspicion of the game, and is still one of my favorites at this point for scum. To be honest however, I didn't want to push to lynch him day 1 if their were other candidates available since i just NK'd him day 1 last game.

That being said, this post has him nailed dead to rights in either a blatant lie or him being a complete bacon brain..

Further, he also unvoted once vic did and BG cast a FOS at the whole lot of them, which caught my eye as backtracking.

I know crusher as scum, and he's basicaly an 800lb butterball of anxiety.. probably not used to lieing at all and doesn't want to let his teammates down by getting nabbed early

Good catch dan..

I'm switching for now

unvote , vote crusher