Braylon Edwards will be the best WR in the division...

[Aten]

and on the contrary its amazing how much people overrate Brandon Marshall.

Neither is all that amazing. People think all sorts of dumb stuff. What's amazing is the people who overrate one and underrate the other when they're basically the same player.

[Matt39]

Neither is all that amazing. People think all sorts of dumb stuff. What's amazing is the people who overrate one and underrate the other when they're basically the same player.

Like having Welker as the second best WR in the division?

[RutgersJetFan]

Why on earth would you think Johnson has a high drops/A? In 2008 he was targeted on 171 throws and wasn't even in the top 20 in raw drops. Last year (using PFF charting numbers, which I've generally found not to be quite as good as FO's) he dropped nine on 152 throws. It's just amazingly wrong.

Very well. Which statistics are you using on both sites? I went by catch rate on FO and drops to attempts on PFF. I hadn't even double-checked them before I posted but it looks like Holmes is the only one that beats out Johnson on FO.

[villain_the_foe]

Come on dude, you know damn well that there's a 50/50 shot Moss goes Vince Carter on his teammates this year.

lol

[villain_the_foe]

They are and they aren't. A guy like Becht (he just sticks out in my head) had pathetic hands.

With Edwards it's either concentration or he needs contact lenses. But a guy with "pathetic" hands could never make the impossible circus catches he hauls in.

A player like Becht could never become a great receiver (even as a TE). Someone like Edwards could be great.

You've always been quite informative to me sperm, however I dont entirely agree with the Anthony Becht statement. Becht wasnt the best receiving TE by any stretch of the imagination but I wouldnt go as far as saying that his hands were pathetic, atleast as a jet. He had alligator arms more than anything.

[SMC]

Neither is all that amazing. People think all sorts of dumb stuff. What's amazing is the people who overrate one and underrate the other when they're basically the same player.

Except that Edwards is much faster.

[Aten]

Very well. Which statistics are you using on both sites? I went by catch rate on FO and drops to attempts on PFF. I hadn't even double-checked them before I posted but it looks like Holmes is the only one that beats out Johnson on FO.

FO doesn't produce full drops numbers that I know of. The top 20 are from last year's almanac and the attempts are from the website. The downside on Johnson is that for whatever reason a lot of passes thrown his way get picked. Anecdotally you'd figure that would have been lack of other options making it predictable that it's coming his way but it doesn't actually vary much with, e.g., Daniels being in or out of the lineup. I think it's more that he's not the greatest route runner.

[Aten]

Except that Edwards is much faster.

Marshall ran 4.52 at the combine. Edwards ran 4.45 at pro day. I'm not sure that even qualifies as faster let alone much.

[Sperm Edwards]

Know what else they have in common? They're all better than he is. Counting stats make you feel better but they'll never change the fact that Braylon's production, like Marshall's, comes at the cost of a ton of bad outcomes.

That was the whole point and I think everyone else got it. What would the point be in listing names of WR's worse than Edwards? It would hardly cause less panic over BE's drops if I said, "Well Ted Ginn dropped more passes."

The entire point, if you need it spelled out for you, is that WR's better (or more productive or whatever your criterion) than Braylon Edwards still drop a lot of passes. Many drop more than he does.

Even during his supposedly great but actually not even good 2007 season, Edwards failed to catch 73 of the balls thrown his way. That's zero yards and loss of down at best four or five times a game. I don't understand how the impact of that is so persistently ignored.

Is this a joke? Somehow equating his not catching a pass thrown in his direction with a drop is something new. If he drops it that's on him. If he fails to catch a pass thrown his way it may be on him and it may not be. The way you put it, you might as well absolve Kellen Clemens for every incomplete pass he's ever thrown because in each instance the receiver "failed to catch" it.

As I mentioned, Edwards needs to work on whatever it is that causes his drops. It clearly isn't from a lack of ability to catch a football. It's maddening and I'm sure it's pretty demoralizing for the team.

I'm at least happy that we didn't give up a 1st round pick or a 2nd and a 4th or other such foolishness as was suggested here this time last year. A 3rd and a 5th in the following season's draft was hardly a ripoff as we get to try him out for 2 seasons before a contract extension becomes necessary to retain him.

Whatever issues we had in the passing game last year were not going to be cured by retaining Chauncey Stuckey -- who by the way, despite only ending up with 19 receptions for Cleveland, also dropped more passes (7) than Edwards last year.

If Edwards was on Andre Johnson's level he wouldn't have been available to us, let alone for a pair of mid-round picks.

[Aten]

Is this a joke? Somehow equating his not catching a pass thrown in his direction with a drop is something new. If he drops it that's on him. If he fails to catch a pass thrown his way it may be on him and it may not be.

And if he consistently fails to catch a large percentage of the passes thrown his way, yes, a good portion of it is on him. Maybe it's a drop, maybe it's a crap route, but his catch rate is always lousy, and the extent to which it's partially a function of playing with bad quarterbacks doesn't especially matter because one of said bad quarterbacks is the guy who's going to be throwing to him this year and god forbid thereafter.

[Aten]

The way you put it, you might as well absolve Kellen Clemens for every incomplete pass he's ever thrown because in each instance the receiver "failed to catch" it.

Also lol @ straw farmer. Braylon's not worth it, dude.

[Sperm Edwards]

You've always been quite informative to me sperm, however I dont entirely agree with the Anthony Becht statement. Becht wasnt the best receiving TE by any stretch of the imagination but I wouldnt go as far as saying that his hands were pathetic, atleast as a jet. He had alligator arms more than anything.

You and I remember different Anthony Bechts then. I remember a guy who had passes bounce of his hands like they were pavement.

Also lol @ straw farmer. Braylon's not worth it, dude.

You're the one who went there first by insinuating that incomplete passes are due to the receiver when you know who his QB's have been. I'm merely trying to be as open-minded with him now that he's here. I couldn't with guys like Pennington because of his physical limitations. Edwards at least CAN catch as we've seen. For whatever reason on the easy ones he just coughs them up too often. That can get corrected. A weak throwing arm isn't going to become a strong one.

Most players don't do full 180's after 5 years in the league. He'll probably always have this problem but not because it's a physical limitation.

[Aten]

You're the one who went there first by insinuating that incomplete passes are due to the receiver when you know who his QB's have been.

It's a metric. There's noise with the signal. Guess you win. Unless of course there were some way of comparing how other receivers did with the same quarterbacks. Hey. I could give you that. Oh. But then you'd point out that the comparison receivers didn't have the same responsibilities as he did so that doesn't matter either. How about as two people who know better we don't turn this into dumb people getting mad at numbers v686598564.1?

[Fatty_VM]

Its amazing how much people underrate Edwards.

http://www.nfl.com/players/braylonedwards/profile?id=EDW127548

He had a very LARGE anomaly in 2007. But besides that .. he's pretty mediocre man.

[LWC611]

You and I remember different Anthony Bechts then. I remember a guy who had passes bounce of his hands like they were pavement.

I agree with you S.E. Becht's hands were not were horrible. The only reason why Becht could catch a cold is because he did not need his hands to do it....

[KSJets]

It's a metric. There's noise with the signal. Guess you win. Unless of course there were some way of comparing how other receivers did with the same quarterbacks. Hey. I could give you that. Oh. But then you'd point out that the comparison receivers didn't have the same responsibilities as he did so that doesn't matter either. How about as two people who know better we don't turn this into dumb people getting mad at numbers v686598564.1?

Are you the guy that BE punched in Cleveland or did he kick your dog? Seriously an awful lot of hate for the guy

[SenorGato]

Marshall will be the best WR in the division.

Holmes will be the best Jet WR.

Both are highly overrated players. Marshall's not even healthy, and Holmes won't even be playing a full season.

They are, of course, nice names and the easiest choices not named Moss to make. I mean one of them was even a SUPER BOWL MVP 2 years ago! WHOA!

I think Edwards is better than both. He's a better run blocker, he's not an *******, he's not an idiot, and he's not injured...there's some big advantages for him there. I'm buying low....he's also bigger than Holmes, faster than Holmes, and has worked with the QB longer than Holmes. I have no idea why I should buy Holmes will be our best WR at all really...he did have a nice year last year, but playing for a top 5 QB in an offense that likes to go deep will inflate stats...not to mention that he comes from an organization where players rarely live up to the hype they received while they were there.

Holmes will be the teams 4th best pass catcher pretty easily imo...I expect Edwards, Cotchery, AND Keller to outplay him. I really don't get what he's done to have him so overrated...

[SenorGato]

There's too much hate for Edwards by Jet fans.

Most of the information known about him seems to center around the fact that he's dropped some passes. Big f'n deal. Find me a WR who doesn't drop passes.

He had a very LARGE anomaly in 2007. But besides that .. he's pretty mediocre man.

Uuuuuuuuum....he beasted in his 3rd year in the league after being an elite college WR and prospect...It's not exactly like '07 came out of left field....and it's definitely isn't like his rookie and sophomore seasons were terrible by any means (given context...mainly that they were Year 1 and Year 2 of a career). It's well within his limits, and seeing as he's entering the typical prime years while staying out of trouble...Edwards is going to be a real life (and fantasy league) steal. If there's one thing I'm confident about in this upcoming season, it's this.

[dbatesman]

Most of the information known about him seems to center around the fact that he's dropped some passes. Big f'n deal. Find me a WR who doesn't drop passes.

It's more that he doesn't catch a lot of passes thrown his way. Subtle but significant difference.

[SenorGato]

Know what else they have in common? They're all better than he is. Counting stats make you feel better but they'll never change the fact that Braylon's production, like Marshall's, comes at the cost of a ton of bad outcomes. Even during his supposedly great but actually not even good 2007 season, Edwards failed to catch 73 of the balls thrown his way. That's zero yards and loss of down at best four or five times a game. I don't understand how the impact of that is so persistently ignored.

Possibly because you're the only one who knew of this. A link or some proof would be nice...It's not the common knowledge you're painting it as. That is pretty significant info if it does exist, though Derek Anderson is and was a really, really sh*tty, inaccurate QB. Edwards and Winslow absolutely carried him...

[Aten]

Possibly because you're the only one who knew of this. A link or some proof would be nice...It's not the common knowledge you're painting it as.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2007

[Aten]

Derek Anderson is and was a really, really sh*tty, inaccurate QB.

Hey, we've got one of those! Here's hoping we can duplicate Cleveland's success in the subsequent year, amiright?

[Aten]

Hey, we've got one of those! Here's hoping we can duplicate Cleveland's success in the subsequent year, amiright?

P.S.

Anderson 2007

797 DYAR

12.3% DVOA

82.5 rating

29 TD/19 INT

Sanchez 2009

-266 DYAR

-21.9% DVOA

63 rating

12 TD/20 INT

[Matt39]

Catch rate? Is this the equivalent to vorp in football?

[SenorGato]

I realize that those stats pretty much eliminates any chance I have of making a successful argument. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sanchez is a better QB than Derek Anderson from a non-numbers POV. He's got better footwork, throws a better ball, he's younger, he's been coached better, he's more mobile...

Anderson's kind of a p*ssy in the pocket (something I've been saying on boards since '07), he throws a harsh ball (usually with more velocity than necessary unless he goes with less), his pocket presence and awareness were and are mediocre, and generally speaking he just didn't have the polish of a franchise QB...It was obvious in 2007 and has only been made more so by his failures since then.

Catch rate? Is this the equivalent to vorp in football?

Sounds like it's closer to batting average, no?

[Matt39]

I realize that those stats pretty much eliminates any chance I have of making a successful argument. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sanchez is a better QB than Derek Anderson from a non-numbers POV. He's got better footwork, throws a better ball, he's younger, he's been coached better, he's more mobile...

Anderson's kind of a p*ssy in the pocket (something I've been saying on boards since '07), he throws a harsh ball (usually with more velocity than necessary unless he goes with less), his pocket presence and awareness were and are mediocre, and generally speaking he just didn't have the polish of a franchise QB...It was obvious in 2007 and has only been made more so by his failures since then.

Sounds like it's closer to batting average, no?

Was just joking. These football outsiders guys are trying to incorporate a saber like way of evaluating football players....its cute, but it really doesnt tell that much. If you watched Braylon in 07- you know he was a beast. 16 tds, 16 ypc with a shtty QB.

[Jbro22]

Was just joking. These football outsiders guys are trying to incorporate a saber like way of evaluating football players....its cute, but it really doesnt tell that much. If you watched Braylon in 07- you know he was a beast. 16 tds, 16 ypc with a shtty QB.

I was just gonna say, when did football become such a numbers game...

[Matt39]

I was just gonna say, when did football become such a numbers game...

Baseball is an individual sport, so it works. In a 16 game season, with so many variables...its impossible to draw too many conclusions based on a player.

[CTM]

Possibly because you're the only one who knew of this. A link or some proof would be nice...It's not the common knowledge you're painting it as. That is pretty significant info if it does exist, though Derek Anderson is and was a really, really sh*tty, inaccurate QB. Edwards and Winslow absolutely carried him...

It's predicted on him not catching a high % of balls thrown his way, which I believe undermines difficult to quantify value that a legit home run hitter provides..

[SenorGato]

It's predicted on him not catching a high % of balls thrown his way, which I believe undermines difficult to quantify value that a legit home run hitter provides..

I need this translated.

[Jbro22]

Baseball is an individual sport, so it works. In a 16 game season, with so many variables...its impossible to draw too many conclusions based on a player.

You don't have to tell me.

[ToonTime]

I agree, I was saying on another site the same thing. This is going to be a HUGE year for Edwards...He has the skill set and the years he was a superstar, his drops didnt seem to matter. Since we didnt thrown the ball much last year (rookie Qb #1 running game) his drops were magnified.

Nothing against Marshall and Moss, well maybe somehting against Moss, F him, this is going to be a HUGE year for my main man Edwards. People have to defend too much on our team now, too many weapons...LT catching the ball out the backfeild, WOW...

[RutgersJetFan]

I need this translated.

You're focusing on drops, when in reality you should be focusing on balls not caught thrown his way. As already explained by my cycloptic colleague, it's a subtle but very significant difference. It's crucial for any WR in the context of a 'he'll be the best' argument.

[dbatesman]

You're focusing on drops, when in reality you should be focusing on balls not caught thrown his way. As already explained by my cycloptic colleague, it's a subtle but very significant difference. It's crucial for any WR in the context of a 'he'll be the best' argument.

Cycloptic?

[Bruce Banner]

I think Edwards is better than both. He's a better run blocker, he's not an *******, he's not an idiot, and he's not injured...there's some big advantages for him there.

Good run blocker is like saying a blind date has a good personality.

I'm buying low....he's also bigger than Holmes, faster than Holmes, and has worked with the QB longer than Holmes. I have no idea why I should buy Holmes will be our best WR at all really...he did have a nice year last year, but playing for a top 5 QB in an offense that likes to go deep will inflate stats...not to mention that he comes from an organization where players rarely live up to the hype they received while they were there.

Edwards is slower than Holmes. Edwards played worse as the year went by so I don't think extra time with the QB will help. Part of the reason Big Ben was a top 5 QB was having Holmes. Big Ben has a weird style that won't work with every WR. PIT didn't let him go because he was old, they let him go because he smokes weed.

Holmes will be the teams 4th best pass catcher pretty easily imo...I expect Edwards, Cotchery, AND Keller to outplay him. I really don't get what he's done to have him so overrated...

I don't know what to expect from Keller. The talent is there but last year he looked unimpressive. Cotchery is the best slow WR in the game, but there is a ceiling on his production due to lack of speed. Just watch him try to return punts. Edwards drops the ball and mentally checks out at the wrong time. But he might be the most gifted WR in the league right now.