Mr.T's hands tied re: signing Revis?- PFT

[Dude Love]

Haha! So you cheer the loudest when they show Woody in his suite on TV?

Why do you insist on mischaracterizing everyone who disagrees with you? This isn't about picking sides ie management vs the players.

It's about principles. Something you obviously don't have.

[jgb]

I understand the frustration, but it's business.

That frustration could also be taken out on a management team that came to Revis offering to tear up his existing deal for something more in line with his market value, then refused to give him anything in the form of guarantees. Instead the fans are collectively taking it all out on the player.

and "it's business" to maximize your profits and pay your employees as little as you can get away with. but you don't excuse that behavior as "just business," do you?

[Jbro22]

Haha! So you cheer the loudest when they show Woody in his suite on TV?

I'm trying to relate that to what I said. But I can't, so I have no response for you.

Everyone knows the right answer to this situation except Revis. Revis deserves more and should get it. Jets are trying to give it to him, but its not enough. Revis wants money that doesn't exist.

[Bleedin Green]

Is it any less credible than what comes straight from Tannenbaum's mouth?

This is just getting sad. You're better than this, but your arguments are just becoming laughable.

I think the rules are skewed sharply against the players in all negotiations. I think the owners get richer off of talented athletes who shorten their lives to play a game. They become crippled, or their brains don't work the way their supposed to. The next round of CBA talks will be a complete joke, with the owners getting 95% of what they want. Any time a player has enough juice on his own to fight that system, I applaud him.

And with so many fans applying one set of morality rules to the owner, and another set to the player, I find myself digging in more. It really boggles my mind that it's absolutely perfectly fine with everyone that the Jets break contracts with Thomas Jones or Alan Faneca, but if Darrelle Revis wants to break his deal he's some kind of greedy bitch diva.

The difference is it's the owner's money, not the players, so they get to decide what they do with it. That's how the world works. When the team gives out a signing bonus to a player, that bonus money is designed to be part of the player's compensation for the entirety of that contract. So even if a team decides to cut a player before the end of their contract, they still get to keep that entire amount and end up receiving partial compensation for years they didn't even perform. That's the give and take of the whole process. The team ends up having paid money for services they didn't receive, but they are not forced to continue to pay additional money to a player who is not earning that money. For the player, they get money they didn't earn and now have the opportunity to go earn money elsewhere, at whatever reasonable rate their current value to an NFL team is.

In Revis' case, he thinks despite the Jets wanting him to honor the contract he signed, he should be able to keep the money he hasn't earned, and not even bother to try earning it, plus get paid significantly more money on top of that. It's really simple economics and as I've said before, I'm fine with him getting a new deal, he certainly deserves it, but that doesn't justify the way he's acted in this process.

[Dude Love]

When the team gives out a signing bonus to a player, that bonus money is designed to be part of the player's compensation for the entirety of that contract.

In Revis' case, he thinks despite the Jets wanting him to honor the contract he signed, he should be able to keep the money he hasn't earned, and not even bother to try earning it, plus get paid significantly more money on top of that. It's really simple economics and as I've said before, I'm fine with him getting a new deal, he certainly deserves it, but that doesn't justify the way he's acted in this process.

Awesome summation!

In essence Revis has taken the team hostage and delivered a list of demands.

[jeti_knight]

What's mind-boggling to me is that you can't understand how the long-suffering fans of a franchise would be angered by their best player threatening to jeopardize arguably the most anticipated season in team history, because he's unhappy with the terms of a contract of which half the term has yet to be satisfied.

If you look at revis's POV thiis is his life not a fan "suffering" over their teams misfortune in a game. Football players have about a 10 year span to cash in on their god given abilities that is to say they don't get injured. I don't blame this guy for asking for more money he's earned it. I just don't agree with trying to top aso cus its kind of childish I'm sure if they offered him like 13mil per with some gaarunteed he'd take it but they din offer garunteed

[Dude Love]

I think the rules are skewed sharply against the players in all negotiations. I think the owners get richer off of talented athletes who shorten their lives to play a game.

And what about everybody else? If the government confiscates 46% of my income, and I get hurt and can't work any more, do I get my money back?

[JoeWillie]

I think the rules are skewed sharply against the players in all negotiations. I think the owners get richer off of talented athletes who shorten their lives to play a game. They become crippled, or their brains don't work the way their supposed to. The next round of CBA talks will be a complete joke, with the owners getting 95% of what they want. Any time a player has enough juice on his own to fight that system, I applaud him.

And with so many fans applying one set of morality rules to the owner, and another set to the player, I find myself digging in more. It really boggles my mind that it's absolutely perfectly fine with everyone that the Jets break contracts with Thomas Jones or Alan Faneca, but if Darrelle Revis wants to break his deal he's some kind of greedy bitch diva.

They NFL Players Association accepted the deal at the bargaining table.

Blame them.

If history has shown anything, it has proven time and time again that the NFL Players Association is the weakest union in all of sports.

Do you think this would ever happen in Major League Baseball?

Not a chance, because that union sticks together when their backs are to the wall.

Listen, greed permiates the entire system ... owners and players, and God knows I'm not a fan of Woody Johnson or the owners in general. But the system was negotiated and agreed to by all parties and players can't bitch and moan that they're being treated unfairly when they bargained for this deal.

The CBA is expired.

Now that it has, let's see how much the NFL Players really care about the guys before them who are not collecting benefits, because up until now, whenever they've had a chance to do something about it, they've sold that faction of the "brotherhood" to the wolves.

[slats]

and "it's business" to maximize your profits and pay your employees as little as you can get away with. but you don't excuse that behavior as "just business," do you?

I completely understand that. It's a business from both sides. Most of the arguments against Revis recognize the owner's business stance without acknowledging the player's POV.

The difference is it's the owner's money, not the players, so they get to decide what they do with it. That's how the world works. When the team gives out a signing bonus to a player, that bonus money is designed to be part of the player's compensation for the entirety of that contract. So even if a team decides to cut a player before the end of their contract, they still get to keep that entire amount and end up receiving partial compensation for years they didn't even perform. That's the give and take of the whole process. The team ends up having paid money for services they didn't receive, but they are not forced to continue to pay additional money to a player who is not earning that money. For the player, they get money they didn't earn and now have the opportunity to go earn money elsewhere, at whatever reasonable rate their current value to an NFL team is.

In Revis' case, he thinks despite the Jets wanting him to honor the contract he signed, he should be able to keep the money he hasn't earned, and not even bother to try earning it, plus get paid significantly more money on top of that. It's really simple economics and as I've said before, I'm fine with him getting a new deal, he certainly deserves it, but that doesn't justify the way he's acted in this process.

I don't disagree with any of this. Doesn't make Revis wrong.

Revis is significantly underpaid right now. Including this year and next, he'd average less than $5M a year over five years. That's less than half of what he's worth. Depending on who you want to listen to, it's less than a third of what he's worth. Rumor has it that the Jets have offered him $100M! But this year, he's under contract for just $550K. If he steps on the field and suffers an injury that he'll never recover fully from, he'll never see that kind of money. If he suffers a career ending injury, he'll make that $550K and a modest injury settlement. That's a huge risk for him. This is his only way to make that kind of money. He's smart not to risk it. Not all training camps are even open yet, and yet players are already being carted off fields around the country. As I've said before, if I was the guy's father I would be advising him to do exactly what he's doing now.

[bitonti]

bit,on the flipside to that argument,if the jets give revis huge guaranteed dough,and revis pulls a leon,the jets are assed out and dont get anything,either

If the Jets give Revis guaranteed dough that's their concern.

If they don't he won't even be there, and that's another concern.

[jgb]

I completely understand that. It's a business from both sides. Most of the arguments against Revis recognize the owner's business stance without acknowledging the player's POV.

I don't disagree with any of this. Doesn't make Revis wrong.

Revis is significantly underpaid right now. Including this year and next, he'd average less than $5M a year over five years. That's less than half of what he's worth. Depending on who you want to listen to, it's less than a third of what he's worth. Rumor has it that the Jets have offered him $100M! But this year, he's under contract for just $550K. If he steps on the field and suffers an injury that he'll never recover fully from, he'll never see that kind of money. If he suffers a career ending injury, he'll make that $550K and a modest injury settlement. That's a huge risk for him. This is his only way to make that kind of money. He's smart not to risk it. Not all training camps are even open yet, and yet players are already being carted off fields around the country. As I've said before, if I was the guy's father I would be advising him to do exactly what he's doing now.

I see where you are coming from - if Revis didn't hold out for the first deal it would be easier to take his side. I know the whole 5/6 year thing but 2 holdouts in 3 years does make him appear pretty selfish. that being said, grossly underpaid, absolutely.

[slats]

They NFL Players Association accepted the deal at the bargaining table.

Blame them.

If history has shown anything, it has proven time and time again that the NFL Players Association is the weakest union in all of sports.

Do you think this would ever happen in Major League Baseball?

Not a chance, because that union sticks together when their backs are to the wall.

Listen, greed permiates the entire system ... owners and players, and God knows I'm not a fan of Woody Johnson or the owners in general. But the system was negotiated and agreed to by all parties and players can't bitch and moan that they're being treated unfairly when they bargained for this deal.

The CBA is expired.

Now that it has, let's see how much the NFL Players really care about the guys before them who are not collecting benefits, because up until now, whenever they've had a chance to do something about it, they've sold that faction of the "brotherhood" to the wolves.

This is all true, too.

Still doesn't make Revis wrong to do what's best for himself and his family's future.

[bitonti]

I see where you are coming from - if Revis didn't hold out for the first deal it would be easier to take his side. I know the whole 5/6 year thing but 2 holdouts in 3 years does make him appear pretty selfish. that being said, grossly underpaid, absolutely.

Revis believes in his value. His play on the field has more than justified this position.

Yes it might be unreasonable to have a player hold out 2x in his career.

Not as unreasonable as telling a cornerback to cover the other team's best WR all game with no safety help.

[slats]

I see where you are coming from - if Revis didn't hold out for the first deal it would be easier to take his side. I know the whole 5/6 year thing but 2 holdouts in 3 years does make him appear pretty selfish. that being said, grossly underpaid, absolutely.

I completely understand the distaste, I really do. But Revis' first holdout still did not get him what he's worth. And to risk his livelihood -which even the Jets are rumored to have placed a $100M value on- for just $550K would be extremely foolish on his part.

[Larz]

for the posters in revis' camp

who doesn't get signed to make revis feel good ?

mangold or harris ?

pick one

[JohnnyHector]

Yes it might be unreasonable to have a player hold out 2x in his career.

Not as unreasonable as telling a cornerback to cover the other team's best WR all game with no safety help.

So now it's not only a matter of his compensation, but his job function is unreasonable as well?

Maybe he can get a clause written into his new contract that he has to be guaranteed help over the top on 20% of his snaps.

[bitonti]

So now it's not only a matter of his compensation, but his job function is unreasonable as well?

Maybe he can get a clause written into his new contract that he has to be guaranteed help over the top on 20% of his snaps.

he doesn't need safety help. He needs to be paid fairly.

My point is he fills a rare function and you get what you pay for in this world.

[slats]

for the posters in revis' camp

who doesn't get signed to make revis feel good ?

mangold or harris ?

pick one

Tanny's a bright guy. This is an uncapped year. He could find a way to maximize every sort of bonus he could pay to Revis this year in a way that won't effect the cap in future years. It's really not an either/or proposition.

[JohnnyHector]

he doesn't need safety help. He needs to be paid fairly.

My point is he fills a rare function and you get what you pay for in this world.

Your point was worded horribly then, as you plainly stated that his designed role in the Jets defense was "unreasonable" - even more so than the notion of staging a holdout (with minimal leverage) twice in the span of three years.

Yippee for hyperbole.

[JohnnyHector]

Tanny's a bright guy. This is an uncapped year. He could find a way to maximize every sort of bonus he could pay to Revis this year in a way that won't effect the cap in future years. It's really not an either/or proposition.

Even if Tanny could somehow pay him $30m in guaranteed bonuses this year (provided Woody approves, per Florio), then how does this prevent the very same situation from happening again the next time Revis sees a non-guaranteed annual salary that's less than one or more of his contemporaries?

[JoeWillie]

This is all true, too.

Still doesn't make Revis wrong to do what's best for himself and his family's future.

No.

It's wrong for all the other reasons talked about in 16 threads on the topic.

[slats]

Even if Tanny could somehow pay him $30m in guaranteed bonuses this year (provided Woody approves, per Florio), then how does this prevent the very same situation from happening again the next time Revis sees a non-guaranteed annual salary that's less than one or more of his contemporaries?

I'd offer him about half that in bonuses, keep the next three years of his deal as is (with the guarantees he recently forfeited), and tack on a couple years at the end that feature large reporting bonuses rather than large salaries.

But if -God forbid!- Revis should continue to improve as a football player, you're always going to be open to the possibility of another hold out. Next time it comes up, the Jets can decide whether it's worth meeting his demands or not. At this time, I think it's very much in their interests to get a deal completed.

[slats]

No.

It's wrong for all the other reasons talked about in 16 threads on the topic.

Haven't seen a valid one yet.

Most of them revolve around the idea that the players should honor contracts that management isn't required to honor. That's BS, as far as I'm concerned.

[rillo]

for the posters in revis' camp

who doesn't get signed to make revis feel good ?

mangold or harris ?

pick one

Harris IMO.

[JoeWillie]

Haven't seen a valid one yet.

Most of them revolve around the idea that the players should honor contracts that management isn't required to honor. That's BS, as far as I'm concerned.

Your opinion.

Not the opinion of most, obviously.

[ThisYearsModel]

2 holdouts in 3 years. Not a good start to a career. The money and this year's salary was OK when he signed it. Did he blow all the bonus money? I find it difficult to feel sorry for millionaire players.

[slats]

Your opinion.

Not the opinion of most, obviously.

Should be just as obvious that I don't care what anyone else thinks.

[SMC]

Haven't seen a valid one yet.

Most of them revolve around the idea that the players should honor contracts that management isn't required to honor. That's BS, as far as I'm concerned.

That's only because you're paying attention to nonsense.

The "honor the contract" argument is bogus because Owners don't honor contracts when if suits their needs.

The Revis problem is that:

1. He wants $16 million average over a 6 yr deal which is actually DOUBLE Nnamdi money although Revis claims he is seeking Nnamdi money.

2. He wants full guarantees for both injury and skill

3. If he can't get No. 2 then he wants a mega signing bonus.

That's based on multiple reports. Revis is being completely unreasonable on all 3.

He can't claim Nnamdi money when he wants more than Nnamdi. The CBA doesn't allow full guarantee for injury and skill. And the Jets aren't fronting him a big signing bonus and then have him holdout in 2 years when his salary falls below the arbitrary "Revis don't like" level.

Finally, the "injury fear" put forth by you and the Revis camp is bogus just like the "honor the contract" argument.

Revis can sign a Willis deal now. Willis opted for the injury guarantee while DBrick opted for the skill guarantee. Revis doesn't want that. He either wants a full guarantee or huge signing bonus. The injury talk and invoking Leon is simple a ruse.

[Dude Love]

This is just getting sad. You're better than this, but your arguments are just becoming laughable.

The difference is it's the owner's money, not the players, so they get to decide what they do with it. That's how the world works. When the team gives out a signing bonus to a player, that bonus money is designed to be part of the player's compensation for the entirety of that contract. So even if a team decides to cut a player before the end of their contract, they still get to keep that entire amount and end up receiving partial compensation for years they didn't even perform. That's the give and take of the whole process. The team ends up having paid money for services they didn't receive, but they are not forced to continue to pay additional money to a player who is not earning that money. For the player, they get money they didn't earn and now have the opportunity to go earn money elsewhere, at whatever reasonable rate their current value to an NFL team is.

In Revis' case, he thinks despite the Jets wanting him to honor the contract he signed, he should be able to keep the money he hasn't earned, and not even bother to try earning it, plus get paid significantly more money on top of that. It's really simple economics and as I've said before, I'm fine with him getting a new deal, he certainly deserves it, but that doesn't justify the way he's acted in this process.

slats, you conveniently didn't respond to this post.

LMAO

[serphnx]

Why do all these players want guarantees against injury? If you want that type of thing, obviously you're going to have to take significantly much less money.

People work in the military or for the government for the pensions. The pay is crumbs compared to private sector jobs for the same job. But people do it because of general job security and a pension that will vest for them (also because they are public service jobs). Except for the major corruption positions that pay themselves $890k or so, most people in these industries, especially military, get maybe a third or less of what they'd get with similar experience and accomplishments. For instance a 20 year physician could probably make $500k on the open market, but would make about $150k for the government.

Revis essentially wants the government job guarantee at above a market price, since Aso's contract was an abberation.

Ordinarily I side with players, except maybe in extreme circumstances, such as this one. I don't begrudge Revis for trying, but I root for the jersey and I see giving in as terrible precedent and it would tear the team and salary cap apart. Mangold has just the same claim as Revis does for it, if not more since his contract is closer to being finished and he was drafted lower. What will the Jets do if future draft picks pan out too? The solution isn't to have crappy players, but you can't overpay your top ones and not have room for anybody else. You have to at minimum field 22 guys, if you have one guy, and it's not even the QB here, take up what 10%+, that's a problem. Sanchez will want that money in a few years too, if you can't pay Sanchez if he becomes a top QB in this league, you've just screwed over your franchise, top QBs holding out will destroy your team.

[Dude Love]

Why do all these players want guarantees against injury?

Here's an idea---

Hey Revis, you want a guarantee against injury? Don't play football.

[Dude Love]

Should be just as obvious that I don't care what anyone else thinks.

Thats why you live inside of a stupid bubble.

[slats]

That's only because you're paying attention to nonsense.

The "honor the contract" argument is bogus because Owners don't honor contracts when if suits their needs.

The Revis problem is that:

1. He wants $16 million average over a 6 yr deal which is actually DOUBLE Nnamdi money although Revis claims he is seeking Nnamdi money.

2. He wants full guarantees for both injury and skill

3. If he can't get No. 2 then he wants a mega signing bonus.

That's based on multiple reports. Revis is being completely unreasonable on all 3.

He can't claim Nnamdi money when he wants more than Nnamdi. The CBA doesn't allow full guarantee for injury and skill. And the Jets aren't fronting him a big signing bonus and then have him holdout in 2 years when his salary falls below the arbitrary "Revis don't like" level.

Those multiple reports are also all speculation. I've also read that Revis is open to deals worth less than Aso's per year, and that the Jets haven't offered a signing bonus of any kind yet.

Finally, the "injury fear" put forth by you and the Revis camp is bogus just like the "honor the contract" argument.

Revis can sign a Willis deal now. Willis opted for the injury guarantee while DBrick opted for the skill guarantee. Revis doesn't want that. He either wants a full guarantee or huge signing bonus. The injury talk and invoking Leon is simple a ruse.

The injury fear is 100% legit for all the people who want Revis to report to camp while he negotiates a deal. He suffers a serious injury in camp while those negotiations are going on, and those negotiations will come to a screeching halt. He's smart to stay away while it gets done.

[slats]

slats, you conveniently didn't respond to this post.

LMAO

Right here: http://www.jetnation.com/forums/index.php?/topic/90557-mrts-hands-tied-re-signing-revis-pft/page__view__findpost__p__1631801

Idiot.

You're good at quoting other people, but bring absolutely nothing to the table at all outside of snide remarks. I have no problem discussing the matter with anyone capable of discussion, but this is my last post in response to you. Go **** yourself. Thanks.

[Maxman]

agree completely Slats. There's no rational argument that revis is wrong and the Jets are right. It's rooting for the laundry pure and simple.

only problem the laundry doesn't perform as well without good players wearing it.

Yes but I always root for the team and here is why. There is a salary cap, so the less money Player A gets, the more money Player B can get.