Anyone else think the Mariota/Titans situation is bizarre?

[JetBlue]

So does this mean he has missed all the OTAs, rookie and mini camps?  If so he will be even further behind when finally does sign.  Looks like Metzenberger will have a real shot at winning the starting job....   #ShouldhavetakenWilliams...

[AFJF]

So does this mean he has missed all the OTAs, rookie and mini camps?  If so he will be even further behind when finally does sign.  Looks like Metzenberger will have a real shot at winning the starting job....   #ShouldhavetakenWilliams...

 

I remember reading that he went to camps even w/o a deal in place.  Not sure he'll do that when TC starts.

[slats]

This topic was discussed several weeks ago. Can someone remind me again why Mariota needs offset language in his contract?

 

His situation is very different than others because he was so closely linked to another HC in a way few prospects have been, and he is (theoretically, anyway) uniquely suited for just Chip Kelly's offense. So I get why Tennessee doesn't want Mariota to have this leverage.

 

If Mariota isn't planning on screwing them over by shooting his way off the team, what's his downside of not having the offset language? He doesn't lose any guaranteed money; it just means he can't double dip No offset language is an incentive, of sorts, for him to purposely work his way off the team early (particularly if Kelly is still coaching then and is still looking for a QB upgrade).

Mariota's biggest asset heading into the draft was his high character. He's not a kid who's going to purposely play poorly in an effort to play his way off one team and onto another, not that I think any player would do such a thing. Who knows if Chip Kelly is even still gonna have a job in the NFL two, three years from now?

And if the Titans were really concerned about such an unbelievable scenario, they shouldn't've drafted him in the first place.

Offset language is dumb in rookie contracts, period. How many high first round picks have tanked for the team that drafted them, resulting in them getting cut, the finding them signing a big money deal for another team? It makes sense for coach deals, where one team's trash is often another team's treasure, and maybe even a veteran player's contract, who's already proven himself in the league but may not be a fit on your team. But a rookie deal? It's pointless.

[drdetroit]

Lol

[Sperm Edwards]

Mariota's biggest asset heading into the draft was his high character. He's not a kid who's going to purposely play poorly in an effort to play his way off one team and onto another, not that I think any player would do such a thing. Who knows if Chip Kelly is even still gonna have a job in the NFL two, three years from now?

And if the Titans were really concerned about such an unbelievable scenario, they shouldn't've drafted him in the first place.

Offset language is dumb in rookie contracts, period. How many high first round picks have tanked for the team that drafted them, resulting in them getting cut, the finding them signing a big money deal for another team? It makes sense for coach deals, where one team's trash is often another team's treasure, and maybe even a veteran player's contract, who's already proven himself in the league but may not be a fit on your team. But a rookie deal? It's pointless.

My question was how is this bad for Mariota to have offset language in there? He doesn't lose anything if he "caves" to the team's demands, other than an ability to get paid from 2 teams at the same time for the same job.

 

While his character was allegedly a big asset, a detriment is he was considered a project. Playing Devil's T0mShane's Advocate, what if - high character notwithstanding - he wants off the team a year or two early because Kelly has a spot all warm and ready for him. He shouldn't profit by shooting his way out of town. Or if he does it in a "high character" way by just playing badly on purpose.

 

If Kelly wasn't coaching in the NFL and wasn't so hell-bent on trading up for him (until he realized it just wasn't realistic) it wouldn't be a factor. But Kelly is coaching now at the time Mariota's contract is being ironed out, and as much as Kelly wants Mariota, Mariota wants to play for Kelly. There is an incentive for Mariota to get cut/released early if the opportunity to do so presents itself. That's one thing on its face (whether one feels he's justified or not to try); it's another thing to suggest he should be able to double-dip on 2 salaries because the Tennessee contract is fully guaranteed.

 

We discussed it before, like I said. I could look it up but I'm feeling too lazy. I'm just not remembering how offset language hurts Mariota.

[slats]

My question was how is this bad for Mariota to have offset language in there? He doesn't lose anything if he "caves" to the team's demands, other than an ability to get paid from 2 teams at the same time for the same job.

 

While his character was allegedly a big asset, a detriment is he was considered a project. Playing Devil's T0mShane's Advocate, what if - high character notwithstanding - he wants off the team a year or two early because Kelly has a spot all warm and ready for him. He shouldn't profit by shooting his way out of town. Or if he does it in a "high character" way by just playing badly on purpose.

 

If Kelly wasn't coaching in the NFL and wasn't so hell-bent on trading up for him (until he realized it just wasn't realistic) it wouldn't be a factor. But Kelly is coaching now at the time Mariota's contract is being ironed out, and as much as Kelly wants Mariota, Mariota wants to play for Kelly. There is an incentive for Mariota to get cut/released early if the opportunity to do so presents itself. That's one thing on its face (whether one feels he's justified or not to try); it's another thing to suggest he should be able to double-dip on 2 salaries because the Tennessee contract is fully guaranteed.

 

We discussed it before, like I said. I could look it up but I'm feeling too lazy. I'm just not remembering how offset language hurts Mariota.

I just think it's completely implausible that Mariota -or virtually any other high draft pick- would go out of their way to play so terribly that they get cut because they expect to sign a big money deal somewhere else. To the best of my knowledge, that scenario has never played out in this league.

Removing such language from Mariota's contract protects him. It makes it harder for Tennessee to cut him prematurely, knowing that they'll eat the remainder of his deal (ironically making it harder for him to purposely play his way off the team). And it also protects him in case the Titans just suck, blame Mariota, and cut him, leaving him forced to do a "show me" deal somewhere else. Sure, he'd be double-dipping for a year or two, but that would offset the damage to his earning potential stemming from being saddled with a terrible and dysfunctional franchise.

And the Titans lose next to nothing by dropping their hard line stance. As I said before, it's incredible unlikely that he'd sign a contract for much more than the vet minimum after being dispensed with before his rookie deal was up. All the team is doing is making it harder for Mariota to succeed as their QB.

[T0mShane]

Maybe they're not sure if Mariota is going to be any good.

[Villain The Foe]

Yes, they're telling him that if they cut him and he signs elsewhere, they want to be "off the hook" for any money remaining on his deal, meaning a new contract would void the old.  Titans owner has said publicly that this is not a negotiable aspect of the deal.  Just odd to do it to a guy you took #2 overall and was expected to be a project.  It's not like these contracts are worth the tens of millions of guaranteed money that they used to be.  If they were to sign him to a rookie deal and cut him after 2-3 years I'd think the cap hit would be manageable.

I guess the owner forgot that he's at the "negotiation table". lol. 

[Villain The Foe]

It gives off the wrong impression.  Because Mariota is "supposedly" your franchise QB, if that's

the case rubber stamp his contract and move on.  This dispute leads me to believe not everyone

in their organization is sold on him.  This sure didn't happen when IND selected Luck

Not until he plays football and proves it. He's a rookie. 

[Ghost]

I think majority of the staff did not want Marcus Mariota. If they are all in on this guy and believe in him, then there shouldn't be any off-set languages in case the Titans "cut him."

The Colts didn't draft Luck and planned on him being on another club 2-4 years. He's the #2 pick in the draft and they need to treat him like it.

[Villain The Foe]

My question was how is this bad for Mariota to have offset language in there? He doesn't lose anything if he "caves" to the team's demands, other than an ability to get paid from 2 teams at the same time for the same job.

 

While his character was allegedly a big asset, a detriment is he was considered a project. Playing Devil's T0mShane's Advocate, what if - high character notwithstanding - he wants off the team a year or two early because Kelly has a spot all warm and ready for him. He shouldn't profit by shooting his way out of town. Or if he does it in a "high character" way by just playing badly on purpose.

 

If Kelly wasn't coaching in the NFL and wasn't so hell-bent on trading up for him (until he realized it just wasn't realistic) it wouldn't be a factor. But Kelly is coaching now at the time Mariota's contract is being ironed out, and as much as Kelly wants Mariota, Mariota wants to play for Kelly. There is an incentive for Mariota to get cut/released early if the opportunity to do so presents itself. That's one thing on its face (whether one feels he's justified or not to try); it's another thing to suggest he should be able to double-dip on 2 salaries because the Tennessee contract is fully guaranteed.

 

We discussed it before, like I said. I could look it up but I'm feeling too lazy. I'm just not remembering how offset language hurts Mariota.

Do you think that the Titans are concerned that Mariota may trying to eek his way to Philly? 

[Matt39]

He just signed per Albert Breer.

[Charlie Brown]

He signed so I guess the speculation can just end now.  

[artemusclyde]

My question was how is this bad for Mariota to have offset language in there? He doesn't lose anything if he "caves" to the team's demands, other than an ability to get paid from 2 teams at the same time for the same job.

 

While his character was allegedly a big asset, a detriment is he was considered a project. Playing Devil's T0mShane's Advocate, what if - high character notwithstanding - he wants off the team a year or two early because Kelly has a spot all warm and ready for him. He shouldn't profit by shooting his way out of town. Or if he does it in a "high character" way by just playing badly on purpose.

 

If Kelly wasn't coaching in the NFL and wasn't so hell-bent on trading up for him (until he realized it just wasn't realistic) it wouldn't be a factor. But Kelly is coaching now at the time Mariota's contract is being ironed out, and as much as Kelly wants Mariota, Mariota wants to play for Kelly. There is an incentive for Mariota to get cut/released early if the opportunity to do so presents itself. That's one thing on its face (whether one feels he's justified or not to try); it's another thing to suggest he should be able to double-dip on 2 salaries because the Tennessee contract is fully guaranteed.

 

We discussed it before, like I said. I could look it up but I'm feeling too lazy. I'm just not remembering how offset language hurts Mariota.

 

It's bad for him if he gets cut and wants to sign with a different team. If he plays terrible no team will want to pick up his contract so if he wants to play in the NFL he'll have to get rid of his Titans contract and take a significant pay cut. Basically another way for teams to get out of paying their players money. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Do you think that the Titans are concerned that Mariota may trying to eek his way to Philly?

I think that is their only concern, as pertaining to offset language specifically for Mariota.

[Sperm Edwards]

It's bad for him if he gets cut and wants to sign with a different team. If he plays terrible no team will want to pick up his contract so if he wants to play in the NFL he'll have to get rid of his Titans contract and take a significant pay cut. Basically another way for teams to get out of paying their players money.

If he doesn't get picked up the Titans still pay him no matter what the offset language says. It's a fully guaranteed contract.

Offset language merely says he wouldn't collect from 2 teams at the same time. He wouldn't have to take a pay cut and no other team has to pick up his existing contract unless he's claimed off waivers. Either way he's guaranteed to make no less.

Pretend year 4 he was due $4M but Tennessee cut him. Now he's a FA who (let's pretend) nobody wants for more than a $1M show-me deal. Chip Kelly (or whoever else) signs him for 1 year $1M. Tennessee still picks up the other $3M. Mariota's lost nothing.

The offset language merely means if he's cut then he can't collect $1M (or $15M) from a new team ON TOP OF the orig $4M from Tennessee.

[Sperm Edwards]

I just think it's completely implausible that Mariota -or virtually any other high draft pick- would go out of their way to play so terribly that they get cut because they expect to sign a big money deal somewhere else. To the best of my knowledge, that scenario has never played out in this league.

Removing such language from Mariota's contract protects him. It makes it harder for Tennessee to cut him prematurely, knowing that they'll eat the remainder of his deal (ironically making it harder for him to purposely play his way off the team). And it also protects him in case the Titans just suck, blame Mariota, and cut him, leaving him forced to do a "show me" deal somewhere else. Sure, he'd be double-dipping for a year or two, but that would offset the damage to his earning potential stemming from being saddled with a terrible and dysfunctional franchise.

And the Titans lose next to nothing by dropping their hard line stance. As I said before, it's incredible unlikely that he'd sign a contract for much more than the vet minimum after being dispensed with before his rookie deal was up. All the team is doing is making it harder for Mariota to succeed as their QB.

 

If the Titans suck everyone isn't going to blame Mariota unless he's worthy of such blame. The Rams sucked and still there are multiple teams lining up to trade a 1st rounder for the privilege of picking up the 1 year $13M remaining on always-injured Bradford's contract.

What the Titans lose is setting a precedent. That part I'm sympathetic to Mariota's side because why is their company policy on his head? He didn't choose them; they chose him.

One could argue they gain by a holdout if he signs much later. Despite their lip service to the contrary, he should be holding a clipboard for everyone other than Chip Kelly unless Tennessee decides to run that offense as well. If he holds out for too long the decision on who to start this year will be made for them (like Rivers did with San Diego in 2004, holding out until right before final roster cutdowns, and Brees was handed the job again, which he made the most of).

The best argument, which I haven't heard, is that they'll go all out on Mariota even if they were so inclined not to after 2 years. Like if they could deal with the guaranteed $ loss for nothing by cutting him, but it would stick in their craw not if he's both playing and ALSO collecting a full salary from someone else (particularly if it's for Kelly who they would understandably be at least suspicious of shenanigans in that situation).

It only means if he signs with someone else that he won't collect from the Titans while playing for the Eagles. I think the risk of Mariota purposely trying to get cut (and succeeding) is very, very low. But I don't think it's nonexistent, and Mariota's unusual relationship with Kelly is the only thing that muddies the water to me. It's not just his prior coach. It's not just his prior coach who tried badly to maneuver to get Mariota for months. It's also that Mariota may feel he's singularly fit to play in Kelly's offense far better than any other, and that would have a huge impact on his numbers and therefore impact his long term $. Put simply, there is a motive.

And Mariota can still try to do all that. Truth be told, I could argue it makes it EASIER for him to do that (shoot his way out of town) with offset language, since Tennessee would be off the hook financially (or partially) if they are put in a good riddance situation where Mariota+Kelly are colluding but with no hard evidence.

In the end it's all moot (and I don't have a dog in this race no matter how it ends up). They're not cutting him inside of 4 years after drafting him 2nd, turning down all that was offered for the pick, and then certainly passing up on drafting any other high QB prospect for at least the next season or two minimum. It's just not going to happen. Not unless Mariota does something to make it happen.

[artemusclyde]

If he doesn't get picked up the Titans still pay him no matter what the offset language says. It's a fully guaranteed contract.

Offset language merely says he wouldn't collect from 2 teams at the same time. He wouldn't have to take a pay cut and no other team has to pick up his existing contract unless he's claimed off waivers. Either way he's guaranteed to make no less.

Pretend year 4 he was due $4M but Tennessee cut him. Now he's a FA who (let's pretend) nobody wants for more than a $1M show-me deal. Chip Kelly (or whoever else) signs him for 1 year $1M. Tennessee still picks up the other $3M. Mariota's lost nothing.

The offset language merely means if he's cut then he can't collect $1M (or $15M) from a new team ON TOP OF the orig $4M from Tennessee.

 

Yeah your right on that, but still bad for him because it doesn't let him double dip if he sucks. Prevents him from making more money on his existing contract. So instead of that 5 mill he'd be making in your example, he'd be making 4 instead. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Yeah your right on that, but still bad for him because it doesn't let him double dip if he sucks. Prevents him from making more money on his existing contract. So instead of that 5 mill he'd be making in your example, he'd be making 4 instead. 

 

I think that's the idea (from the team's standpoint). They want that scenario to be bad for him. The potential for double-dipping is - at least on paper - a motivation/incentive to get them to cut him for one reason or another.

 

Again, I don't think Mariota is at all likely to do that, but his relationship with Kelly makes his situation a little different than the generic #2 overall draft pick QB.

 

But at the same time, it's their problem not ours. I just find it interesting.

[flgreen]

It's bad for him if he gets cut and wants to sign with a different team. If he plays terrible no team will want to pick up his contract so if he wants to play in the NFL he'll have to get rid of his Titans contract and take a significant pay cut. Basically another way for teams to get out of paying their players money. 

 

If the #2 player in the draft is bad enough to get cut before his guaranteed money is used up, can't blame them for that

[artemusclyde]

I think that's the idea (from the team's standpoint). They want that scenario to be bad for him. The potential for double-dipping is - at least on paper - a motivation/incentive to get them to cut him for one reason or another.

 

Again, I don't think Mariota is at all likely to do that, but his relationship with Kelly makes his situation a little different than the generic #2 overall draft pick QB.

 

But at the same time, it's their problem not ours. I just find it interesting.

 

I think it has more to do with the guaranteed money more than anything. Titans want to save some money just in case he sucks, and they also want to set a precedent for future draft picks. Basically, every player gets offset language.

[Sperm Edwards]

I think it has more to do with the guaranteed money more than anything. Titans want to save some money just in case he sucks, and they also want to set a precedent for future draft picks. Basically, every player gets offset language.

 

Not really. Mariota is guaranteed the same amount whether there's offset language or not. They just don't want to pay him a guarantee if someone else is already paying it to him.

 

I did mention I'm unsympathetic to setting a precedent in this way when it comes to rookies. For veterans on a non-rookie contract? Fine. They chose to sign or re-sign with the team. But Mariota didn't choose the Titans and everyone knows if he had his wish he'd have gone right to Philadelphia. If I'm Mariota's representation I'd tell them to take their "we don't want to set a precedent" position and tell them where they can stick it.

[#27TheDominator]

Not really. Mariota is guaranteed the same amount whether there's offset language or not. They just don't want to pay him a guarantee if someone else is already paying it to him.

 

I did mention I'm unsympathetic to setting a precedent in this way when it comes to rookies. For veterans on a non-rookie contract? Fine. They chose to sign or re-sign with the team. But Mariota didn't choose the Titans and everyone knows if he had his wish he'd have gone right to Philadelphia. If I'm Mariota's representation I'd tell them to take their "we don't want to set a precedent" position and tell them where they can stick it.

 

Presumably, that is exactly what happened.

[JetBlue]

Mariota's biggest asset heading into the draft was his high character. He's not a kid who's going to purposely play poorly in an effort to play his way off one team and onto another, not that I think any player would do such a thing. Who knows if Chip Kelly is even still gonna have a job in the NFL two, three years from now?

And if the Titans were really concerned about such an unbelievable scenario, they shouldn't've drafted him in the first place.

Offset language is dumb in rookie contracts, period. How many high first round picks have tanked for the team that drafted them, resulting in them getting cut, the finding them signing a big money deal for another team? It makes sense for coach deals, where one team's trash is often another team's treasure, and maybe even a veteran player's contract, who's already proven himself in the league but may not be a fit on your team. But a rookie deal? It's pointless.

I can't believe they are making that big a deal about this.  It is almost like a vote of NO confidence in your future franchise quarterback. 

[kelticwizard]

I think that the other top draft choices did NOT have offset language, Winston the # 1 did have it because of his previous off the field issues, so the Titans figured they could get away with saying, "See?  Top players now have to have the offset language in their contracts, the day of being so good you get no offset clause is over, from this year on everybody gets the offset".  It's not a case of Mariotta breaking a tradition, it's a case of the Titans pretending the tradition is already set by Winston.

[kelticwizard]

Well,they signed him a few days ago with "partial offset" in the contract.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13297727/marcus-mariota-tennessee-titans-sign-deal