Matt39 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm not sure who you are even talking about. I'm talking about Revis, dumbass. No need to be an a$$hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Huh? In what world was DeVito a standout when he was barely seeing the field under Mangini? lol I guess backing up the great Kenyon Coleman and CJ Mosley makes you a stand out these days. Hell, he barely played Rex's first year here. lol What? DeVito was the first guy off the bench for Mangini and was getting starts in both 07 and 08 (stepped in for injuries). DeVito stood out here from Day 1 of being brought in...pretty damn sure he was the third starter in 09 as well. The Jets were extremely high on DeVito the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I love it when a thread gets hijacked by people pwning JiF for pages and pages. Orgiastic, I tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I love it when a thread gets hijacked by people pwning JiF for pages and pages. Orgiastic, I tell you. Chicken or egg arguments are nice narratives, but then the DeVito post went up and I just thought to myself, "oh no, no that's not good at all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Like I said, great players make good coaches great and great coaches make good players great. Maybin is an example along with Dixon, DeVito, Pouha, Cro. I think Revis is too. There were no talks of him being the "goat" until Rex came to town. I remember when QBs called their own plays. I would say coaches play a much larger role these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm not arguing that he wasnt a good player before Rex. He was. He was very good and definitely in the conversation. I'm saying, there is no conversation now with Rex. Again, its total conjecture, but Revis wasnt an Island till Rex got here. Fact. Clearly, its not all Rex, but to deny that he didnt have an impact is silly IMO. he was a second year player dude.. I'd agree with you if he was in his seventh season and took a leap, but 2nd to third year players are supposed to get better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Revis was well on his way... I know fatties are your thing, but come on this is from after 2008 season, revis was only in his second year http://www.nfl.com/n...ide-in-afc-west 4. Darrelle Revis, Jets After just two years in the NFL, Revis has quickly developed into one of the league's top cover men with his aggressive approach. The 2008 Pro Bowler possesses a diverse skill set that allows him to excel in press or off coverage, and his ball skills are extraordinary for a young player. With Revis' best football still ahead of him, he might occupy a spot on this list for years to come. I actually agree with you on the topic of Revis and his ability, but yet I think he's still actually the perfect example of the importance of coaching in the NFL. Revis was already great, and going to continue to be great, with or without Rex. The difference is, properly utilizing those abilities. Even with Revis playing as well as he did in 2008, the Jets had one of the worst pass defenses in the league. One season later, they were the #1 passing D with Revis and a whole lot of garbage at CB. Now granted Revis played even better in 2009, but not enough to alone account for the drastic difference. It was also a matter of Rex designing a defense that took maximum advantage of Revis' ability, by constantly using him to shut down the opponents' best receiver while also trying to force QBs into actually going after Revis. The point isn't that the Rex could make a great defense with a bunch of nobodies, but that even great players need to be put in the right position to maximize their benefit to the overall team. Revis would still be great without Rex and Rex's defense wouldn't be nearly as good without Revis, but at the same time, this overall defense is much better off with the both of them combined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I actually agree with you on the topic of Revis and his ability, but yet I think he's still actually the perfect example of the importance of coaching in the NFL. Revis was already great, and going to continue to be great, with or without Rex. The difference is, properly utilizing those abilities. Even with Revis playing as well as he did in 2008, the Jets had one of the worst pass defenses in the league. One season later, they were the #1 passing D with Revis and a whole lot of garbage at CB. Now granted Revis played even better in 2009, but not enough to alone account for the drastic difference. It was also a matter of Rex designing a defense that took maximum advantage of Revis' ability, by constantly using him to shut down the opponents' best receiver while also trying to force QBs into actually going after Revis. The point isn't that the Rex could make a great defense with a bunch of nobodies, but that even great players need to be put in the right position to maximize their benefit to the overall team. Revis would still be great without Rex and Rex's defense wouldn't be nearly as good without Revis, but at the same time, this overall defense is much better off with the both of them combined That's a fair point. But again, I think you are talking about the upgrade from incompetence to good.. Also, our defense hasn't approached again what it was in 2009, so perhaps there was some learning curve there by the rest of the league. Remember week 1, Houston looked completely unprepared for Rex's blitz's.. these days, we rarely get free blitzers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 That's a fair point. But again, I think you are talking about the upgrade from incompetence to good.. Also, our defense hasn't approached again what it was in 2009, so perhaps there was some learning curve there by the rest of the league. Remember week 1, Houston looked completely unprepared for Rex's blitz's.. these days, we rarely get free blitzers I wouldn't disagree with that assessment, and while the defense hasn't matched it's 2009 performance, it also hasn't been anywhere near as bad as it was in 2008 either. The truth is you need good players no matter how good the coaching is, but horrible coaching can severly reduce the impact of a great player on a unit, despite that player continuing to play great. Revis playing zone on the same side of the field all day is only going to accomplish so much for a D, no matter how good he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I wouldn't disagree with that assessment, and while the defense hasn't matched it's 2009 performance, it also hasn't been anywhere near as bad as it was in 2008 either. The truth is you need good players no matter how good the coaching is, but horrible coaching can severly reduce the impact of a great player on a unit, despite that player continuing to play great. Revis playing zone on the same side of the field all day is only going to accomplish so much for a D, no matter how good he is. we're not talking about rex and the defense anymore, are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 we're not talking about rex and the defense anymore, are we? Sure we are, and for the love of God let's please keep it that way. In this case, the bad coaching I was referring to would be that of the great Mangenius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 he was a second year player dude.. I'd agree with you if he was in his seventh season and took a leap, but 2nd to third year players are supposed to get better EXACTLY! Just like Sanchez has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason423 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 That's a fair point. But again, I think you are talking about the upgrade from incompetence to good.. Also, our defense hasn't approached again what it was in 2009, so perhaps there was some learning curve there by the rest of the league. Remember week 1, Houston looked completely unprepared for Rex's blitz's.. these days, we rarely get free blitzers I think what happens with defenses is pretty much what you are talking about here where the league catches up with the scheme and the defense doesnt rebound to the high levels until the talent level changes. The Jets have actually held up much better than almost every team that at one point had an elite defense. Normally that fall dramatically from elite year to the following seasons, many are actually below average. The 2000 Ravens held teams to about 40% below their scoring norms. In 2001 they dropped to about 17 or 18% and in 2002 actually allowed teams to score more than their average. It took them until 2004 to put together another great defense which was probably as much about Suggs becoming a complete player than Nolan doing some spectacular job in the film room. You need some roster turnover to give teams a different look. Revis exploded in 2009 and when you couple that with the new coaching teams were just lost. By 2010 we retreated and 2011 it went further. Just not enough new impact type players while the other faces just get older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm talking about Revis, dumbass. No need to be an a$$hole. Wow, hey now. Take a chill pill. Dont know how asking a question is being an a$$hole. We've been talking about 3 different players in this thread and was asking for clarification. Someone's a little sensitive. What? DeVito was the first guy off the bench for Mangini and was getting starts in both 07 and 08 (stepped in for injuries). DeVito stood out here from Day 1 of being brought in...pretty damn sure he was the third starter in 09 as well. The Jets were extremely high on DeVito the whole time. I dont know how you can say this. He didnt get his first start per Pro Football Reference till 09. He appeared in 7 games in 07 and recorded 3 tackles. He did appear in all 16 games in 08 and had .5 sacks and 15 tackles. I wouldnt call that "standing out"...if he was, we wouldnt have made moves for Trevor Pryce and Marques Douglas, etc etc etc. DeVito broke out last year while showing signs in 09 and is a fanstastic player - under Rex Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I actually agree with you on the topic of Revis and his ability, but yet I think he's still actually the perfect example of the importance of coaching in the NFL. Revis was already great, and going to continue to be great, with or without Rex. The difference is, properly utilizing those abilities. Even with Revis playing as well as he did in 2008, the Jets had one of the worst pass defenses in the league. One season later, they were the #1 passing D with Revis and a whole lot of garbage at CB. Now granted Revis played even better in 2009, but not enough to alone account for the drastic difference. It was also a matter of Rex designing a defense that took maximum advantage of Revis' ability, by constantly using him to shut down the opponents' best receiver while also trying to force QBs into actually going after Revis. The point isn't that the Rex could make a great defense with a bunch of nobodies, but that even great players need to be put in the right position to maximize their benefit to the overall team. Revis would still be great without Rex and Rex's defense wouldn't be nearly as good without Revis, but at the same time, this overall defense is much better off with the both of them combined This is all I was saying. Its not trivial. It happens often. A player good player goes to a scheme/coach that miximizes their ability and they become great. Revis may have even been "great" prior to Rex but the "goat" talk didnt happen until Rex got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 EXACTLY! Just like Sanchez has. Ha! I was going to post something similar but figured why bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I dont know how you can say this. He didnt get his first start per Pro Football Reference till 09. He appeared in 7 games in 07 and recorded 3 tackles. He did appear in all 16 games in 08 and had .5 sacks and 15 tackles. I wouldnt call that "standing out"...if he was, we wouldnt have made moves for Trevor Pryce and Marques Douglas, etc etc etc. DeVito broke out last year while showing signs in 09 and is a fanstastic player - under Rex Ryan. Yeah I just saw his nfl.com and prfbref page...I could have sworn he made a couple late season starts in '07 and '08...Either way, the Jets have been in love with DeVito from Day 1 of bringing him in, and he's stood out as a talent on the DL the whole time he's been here. Rex didn't come in and do anything special with him...He just saw way more playing time as a 3rd/4th year player than he did as a rookie UDFA and 2nd year player...most likely due to natural progression for a young player who put in the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Yeah I just saw his nfl.com and prfbref page...I could have sworn he made a couple late season starts in '07 and '08...Either way, the Jets have been in love with DeVito from Day 1 of bringing him in, and he's stood out as a talent on the DL the whole time he's been here. Rex didn't come in and do anything special with him...He just saw way more playing time as a 3rd/4th year player than he did as a rookie UDFA and 2nd year player...most likely due to natural progression for a young player who put in the work. Impossible for you or I to know what Rex did or didnt do with Mike DeVito. What we do know is, Mike DeVito was on the roster and Rex chose to play guys like Tervor Pryce, Howard Green, Margues Douglas, Margues Murrell on to play over or along with DeVito - so he wasnt this "standout" you are claiming him to be. It took a year under Rex for him to develop in the player he is today. Whether it was Rex or not, who knows...I tend to think he had something to do with it given his ability to get the most out of his DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm talking about Revis, dumbass. No need to be an a$$hole. Jif's a punk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Impossible for you or I to know what Rex did or didnt do with Mike DeVito. What we do know is, Mike DeVito was on the roster and Rex chose to play guys like Tervor Pryce, Howard Green, Margues Douglas, Margues Murrell on to play over or along with DeVito - so he wasnt this "standout" you are claiming him to be. It took a year under Rex for him to develop in the player he is today. Whether it was Rex or not, who knows...I tend to think he had something to do with it given his ability to get the most out of his DL. guif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Impossible for you or I to know what Rex did or didnt do with Mike DeVito. What we do know is, Mike DeVito was on the roster and Rex chose to play guys like Tervor Pryce, Howard Green, Margues Douglas, Margues Murrell on to play over or along with DeVito - so he wasnt this "standout" you are claiming him to be. It took a year under Rex for him to develop in the player he is today. Whether it was Rex or not, who knows...I tend to think he had something to do with it given his ability to get the most out of his DL. Marques Murrell and Trevor Pryce were suppoesed to be pass rushers. Green a NT to backup Jenkins. Devito is a player they had talked up for years, but those big guys take some time to develop, particularly when they come out of Maine. Marques Douglas is the guy that they signed to start over Devito, but that was them bringing in a Rex guy and moving Kenyon Coleman in the Sanchez deal was an indication that they were ready to go to war with Devito before Rex ever coached him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Jif's a punk.. Truth, but I wasnt being one to him at that particular time and he went mental. Might be that time of the month. guif And you, of all people... h8u - lfp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Marques Murrell and Trevor Pryce were suppoesed to be pass rushers. Green a NT to backup Jenkins. Devito is a player they had talked up for years, but those big guys take some time to develop, particularly when they come out of Maine. Marques Douglas is the guy that they signed to start over Devito, but that was them bringing in a Rex guy and moving Kenyon Coleman in the Sanchez deal was an indication that they were ready to go to war with Devito before Rex ever coached him. Cool but they didnt. Either way, I guess this is all pointless. We dont know how much of impact Rex has had because we're not there. I'd like to say there is correlation. Just like there is a correlation with Revis, Rex and goat talk. But whatever, he sucks and so do the Jets. Fire Rex!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Truth, but I wasnt being one to him at that particular time and he went mental. Might be that time of the month. And you, of all people... h8u - lfp It came off as the "I dont even know who you are" routine...I apologize for overreacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 It came off as the "I dont even know who you are" routine...I apologize for overreacting. I have 19k in posts, you have 12k...I'm pretty sure I know who you are. No worries. Water under the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Cool but they didnt. Actually, they did. Devito played in 15 games. The Jets rotate DL constantly. They let Ellis walk this year and that has to do with their willingness to rely on Dixon and Pitoitua besides just Wilkerson. They stories all said that they signed Douglas to help teach the D. They signed a player at each level of the defense Douglas-Scott-Leonhard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Actually, they did. Devito played in 15 games. The Jets rotate DL constantly. They let Ellis walk this year and that has to do with their willingness to rely on Dixon and Pitoitua besides just Wilkerson. They stories all said that they signed Douglas to help teach the D. They signed a player at each level of the defense Douglas-Scott-Leonhard. Ugh - whatever, they were ready to go with him as a back up. You win. Jesus. All I'm saying is he's flurished under Rex Ryan. Whether it was the natural progression of a player or Rex Ryan tapped into his talent - who knows. I'm sure its a combo of both. This all started by me simply saying, great players make good coaches great and great coaches make good players great. IMO, its the later with DeVito. I guess we'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Impossible for you or I to know what Rex did or didnt do with Mike DeVito. What we do know is, Mike DeVito was on the roster and Rex chose to play guys like Tervor Pryce, Howard Green, Margues Douglas, Margues Murrell on to play over or along with DeVito - so he wasnt this "standout" you are claiming him to be. It took a year under Rex for him to develop in the player he is today. Whether it was Rex or not, who knows...I tend to think he had something to do with it given his ability to get the most out of his DL. We also know that the Jets liked DeVito a whole lot before that. DeVito was common knowledge to jet fans before 2009, and it's because the organization made it well known that they liked him alot. Also your point about the DL having guys supposedly over him...it was a bonafied 3-4 DL without one stud...lots of guys got tons of snaps, including DeVito....PFFs secret superstar article about him pointed out that he was one of 6 guys who saw 200+ snaps in 09 on the DL...simply put its the nature of the job that requires sick DL depth You legit don't remember Devitos first couple of years? The Jets have basically been calling this guy a stud since they signed him....Rex just happened to get him at a point where he hit his physical prime aNd had some experience. Can you really even buy that some UDFA coaxed a long term deal out of the Jets because of one strong 09? They knew exactly who the guy was and had a feeling in the years before that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 We also know that the Jets liked DeVito a whole lot before that. DeVito was common knowledge to jet fans before 2009, and it's because the organization made it well known that they liked him alot. Also your point about the DL having guys supposedly over him...it was a bonafied 3-4 DL without one stud...lots of guys got tons of snaps, including DeVito....PFFs secret superstar article about him pointed out that he was one of 6 guys who saw 200+ snaps in 09 on the DL...simply put its the nature of the job that requires sick DL depth You legit don't remember Devitos first couple of years? The Jets have basically been calling this guy a stud since they signed him....Rex just happened to get him at a point where he hit his physical prime aNd had some experience. Can you really even buy that some UDFA coaxed a long term deal out of the Jets because of one strong 09? They knew exactly who the guy was and had a feeling in the years before that... Great. You win. Mike DeVito was destined to be a start in this league and Rex Ryan had nothing do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Great. You win. Mike DeVito was destined to be a start in this league and Rex Ryan had nothing do with it. Don't sound so bitter it's not that cut and dry...obviously what Rex does and what he and his coaches coach has an overall positive effect on defensive players...I'm just saying that this organization really, really, really liked DeVito from day 1 in 2007, and I'd say a good amount of people knew he was good by mid-'08 at least. He was one of the guys (by that I mean the LT, the C, and Revis), who didn't fall apart at the end of '08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Don't sound so bitter it's not that cut and dry...obviously what Rex does and what he and his coaches coach has an overall positive effect on defensive players...I'm just saying that this organization really, really, really liked DeVito from day 1 in 2007, and I'd say a good amount of people knew he was good by mid-'08 at least. He was one of the guys (by that I mean the LT, the C, and Revis), who didn't fall apart at the end of '08. jif has a fat fetish, rex is fat.. do the math.. imo, the fact is that the league has generally caught up to rex, and this notion that he's some genius X and O guy should be gone.. he's certainly a good defensive coach, and his players like playing for him.. so I'm not knocking him, i just don't think he took a bad defense and made them great without a talent infusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 jif has a fat fetish, rex is fat.. do the math.. imo, the fact is that the league has generally caught up to rex, and this notion that he's some genius X and O guy should be gone.. he's certainly a good defensive coach, and his players like playing for him.. so I'm not knocking him, i just don't think he took a bad defense and made them great without a talent infusion Defense was pretty damn loaded when he came in...Harris...Pace...Revis obviously...DeVito...I guess you can throw a returning Jenkins...Pouha, who they stuck with forever through many injuries because they really liked him....Thomas...Ellis...young bit guys like Westerman, Pito, Coleman, and Lowery...I still wonder (no I don't) what could have been with the '08 D if either or both of the top two NTs held up. I agree with you about that other thing too...that other teams basically get the X's and O's more than they did. I think this franchise has bent over backwards to force the issue on Rex Ryan working the sideline on Sundays. They've eased him in and hope he'll grow on the job. He's not an idiot at all (body language test) so I think he will. It's just that as HC he's second in my chain of blame (QB - HC - Non-QBs - Coordinators - Other races), and will often feel my wrath over not winning well enough or outright losing. I get pretty gd pissed after a loss too, as you and all in the boardland know. I often watch games with my my Blame Uzi (rather than the glock) locked and loaded or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I still think Rex is a GREAT x's and o's defensive mind. I look at this year as kind of a reload year and I expect them to be beastly next year. I think they adjust well to what other teams are doing, the D just isn't always strong enough to stop the pass AND the run, but they can keep a team from doing what that team wants to do. Look at the Denver game. Denver walked down the field the first drive and they were stoned the rest of the game. The last drive they started using Tebow to run and the Jets didn't adjust quickly enough. I think as Wilkerson rounds in and they hopefully add some speed at LB and S they will be right back on top. They haven't done too well and are about 8th, aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Don't sound so bitter it's not that cut and dry...obviously what Rex does and what he and his coaches coach has an overall positive effect on defensive players...I'm just saying that this organization really, really, really liked DeVito from day 1 in 2007, and I'd say a good amount of people knew he was good by mid-'08 at least. He was one of the guys (by that I mean the LT, the C, and Revis), who didn't fall apart at the end of '08. I'm not bitter. I just dont feel like arguing about this. You think DeVito was a bundle of talent that just took 5 years to bloom. I think Rex helped him flurish. Neither can be proven either or...so I dont care to argue about it anymore with you. jif has a fat fetish, rex is fat.. do the math.. imo, the fact is that the league has generally caught up to rex, and this notion that he's some genius X and O guy should be gone.. he's certainly a good defensive coach, and his players like playing for him.. so I'm not knocking him, i just don't think he took a bad defense and made them great without a talent infusion What infusion? All he added was Scott and Leonhard and took a mediocre D to the best in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 The 2008 defense was horrendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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