2016 WS Champions/Cubs Thread

[NJ]

The airwaves here (Chicago) are full of those be-moaning the rotten Cubs for signing a wife beating scum like Chapman.

As far as I'm concerned, Chapman served his sentence and there was a reasonable lack of clarity surrounding the circumstances of the case to begin with.

I'm also not someone who takes abuse and domestic violence lightly as I've volunteered a FEW hundred hours of my time every year for the last 25 years to raise money to fight those issues.

I'm not saying that being in the clubhouse on Clark & Addison with Joe M as your manager and a cast of pretty solid citizens surrounding you is going to eradicate every ounce of jerkedoffedness that may be inside of Chapman - but it could show him a different way of looking at things and could effect how he handles himself long term. 

Bottom line - let him get found guilty of tuning up another lady or child or dog and I'll lead the charge to have run him out of town. 

For today - I'm incredibly delighted to have the guy with the best out generating numbers in NL history throwing the ball for my team.

As far as what we gave up - in my book we gave up nothing.

Warren gave us 1 relatively good month in May and since then has been on the bullet train toward a double digit ERA. I'm sure he has promise and as many of my Yank buddies here told me when we got him for Castro - "He's solid" "You'll be happy".  Maybe - seems like a nice guy  - you can have him back. To me he was starting to look like every other middle to long reliever the Cubs had except Cahill and Wood. And that's not a good look.

And the 3 minor league kids we sent might be crackerjack prospects -  but they would have never seen the inside of Wrigley till August in any year unless Russell, Baez, Soler, or Schwarber regress horribly at the plate.

I wish we could have got him with an extension - but lets go for it this year.

Without him or another formidable reliever or 2  - I didn't see us winning the series anyway. 

  

    

[Scott Dierking]

26 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

A regular Keats, this troll

The irony in the bold THO, particularly since this guy is supposedly a baseball fan in 2016 who thinks baseball stats and prospects are a mix of magic and voodoo. I'm just saying it is a fact that roughly 1/3 of this thread, all of it in 2016, are Mets fans out for a troll. At least Pwhatever is straight up and honest about it, that's tolerable, these other guys are the equivalent of paper pusher trolls that know the system well enough to get away with trolling. It is what it is at this point, people support their Alex Smithness as posters and allow them to thrive, I'm not changing that, but I'm not not going to call a troll a troll.

I will give credit to Ray Davies here- "Paranoia will destroy ya".

[SenorGato]

26 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I will give credit to Ray Davies here- "Paranoia will destroy ya".

Just calling a spade a spade

---------

Eloy Jimenez is likely now both the Cubs' nominal and real #1 prospect, and looks like he is taking it well:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cubsminorswrap/status/757675125718196224

I am legit happy the Yankees made the prospect choice they made in Gleyber over Eloy.

He's 2-2 with a walk in that game, and 4-4 with 2 BBs, a 2B, and a HR today. 

[GimmeShelter]

1 hour ago, NJ said:

And the 3 minor league kids we sent might be crackerjack prospects -  but they would have never seen the inside of Wrigley till August in any year unless Russell, Baez, Soler, or Schwarber regress horribly at the plate.

Agree and the same goes for Castro who is basically part of the deal since the Cubs no longer have any return on that deal. This was a painless deal.  The extension would have been nice but I like FO's that go for it  when it appears they have a chance to win it all. Chapman turned down the Yanks attempt to extend him in June as well.  Some Cubs fans (or at least one) is trying to downplay just how high or legit a prospect Torres really is all of a sudden which is sad. Both teams made the right move IMO. Theo did what a GM is supposed to do after a run of bad seasons and a surplus of highly touted prospects. Just like the Mets did when they gave up Fullmer last year for Cespedes. 

Hopefully we see Mets-Cubs again in October.

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, GimmeShelter said:

Some Cubs fans (or at least one) is trying to downplay just how high or legit a prospect Torres really is all of a sudden which is sad.

Hopefully we see Mets-Cubs again in October.

Considering you likely had no idea this player existed before last night/today, what's so terrible about what this one totally definitely unknown Cubs fan had to say on Torres?

Personally I'd be fine with not seeing the Mets in the playoffs at all. It'd be hilarious here for sure, well worth the likely dozen+ pages of trolling.

[SenorGato]

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2016/07/boston_red_sox_trade_rumors_ed.html

This would be one of my two guesses - the other being Marcus Stroman - for that mystery Pomeranz trade that never happened. I've liked Rodriguez for a long time, one of my favorite young, unestablished SP talents out there after being among my favorites in the minors, and would consider him a must-have and potential coup if he can be had. It would be nice....and I most definitely still want a long term SP pickup. 

[NJ]

2 hours ago, GimmeShelter said:

Agree and the same goes for Castro who is basically part of the deal since the Cubs no longer have any return on that deal. This was a painless deal.  The extension would have been nice but I like FO's that go for it  when it appears they have a chance to win it all. Chapman turned down the Yanks attempt to extend him in June as well.  Some Cubs fans (or at least one) is trying to downplay just how high or legit a prospect Torres really is all of a sudden which is sad. Both teams made the right move IMO. Theo did what a GM is supposed to do after a run of bad seasons and a surplus of highly touted prospects. Just like the Mets did when they gave up Fullmer last year for Cespedes. 

Hopefully we see Mets-Cubs again in October.

Torres would have to be superman to make Russell and/or Baez go away and that's probably not reality.

The Cubs will have 35% of a season to get to know Chapman and see how he fits into what is probably a contagiously fun and upbeat environment.

Good news is the Cubs have plenty of cabbage to give him if it's the fit it probably will turn out to be.

Just for the record - I still think the current young line-up hasn't seen enough of and positively adapted to high end, play-off caliber, pitching. 

So while I applaud the "rental" I'm looking at signing as "with the option to buy" 

 

[RutgersJetFan]

15 hours ago, NJ said:

Torres would have to be superman to make Russell and/or Baez go away and that's probably not reality.

The Cubs will have 35% of a season to get to know Chapman and see how he fits into what is probably a contagiously fun and upbeat environment.

Good news is the Cubs have plenty of cabbage to give him if it's the fit it probably will turn out to be.

Just for the record - I still think the current young line-up hasn't seen enough of and positively adapted to high end, play-off caliber, pitching. 

So while I applaud the "rental" I'm looking at signing as "with the option to buy" 

 

Likelihood of breaking the lineup or not, your #1 prospect is always a highly valuable chip. Trading that in exchange for a rental is a huge risk any way you look at it. But the Cubs have a legit shot at going all the way this year, you have to take that shot and they got the most physically dominant guy in the game at the position they needed the most. Royals did the same thing for Zobrist last year. High risk trade that you have to do. Like it was stated earlier in the thread, reminds me a lot of the Fulmer/Cespedes deal last year, A+ trade for both sides. Chicago gave up a lot, but baseball is a fickle game when it comes to year-to-year stuff, and if you're blessed with a season where you have a shot you 100% have to take it.

[vanDoug]

Great post John. Been absent so long, I'm not sure if your post is associated with this comment.

I'm not a "win at all costs" guy and I understand the range of emotions on this trade.

I'm struggling and still processing this. If he's legit and delivers as we all hope, it may remove some of the selling part of our soul sentiment. 

[SenorGato]

Torres was the Cubs' #1 prospect, but on paper both Ian Happ and Eloy Jimenez stack with him. All are ranked in the same range on multiple midseason updates and all have high pedigree (Happ as a top 10 pick college bat is a very good bet to be a MLer and more, Jimenez ranked higher in 2013 among IFAs and is the one dominating offensively). Basically the formula for ranking Torres #1 was ARL + position + secondary offensive skills. 

Considering this guy is the 3rd best SS in the org, tops, behind two former elite prospects in their early 20s already in the MLs....Or that the Cubs and Royals are gigantic market vs smaller market....Basically, all the percieved risk is heavily mitigated by the Cubs' overall depth and context, he was a goner this deadline anyway and the price of SP is higher than High A prospects. The farm will miss him for offseason ranking purposes, but if there's an org in baseball set up for this it is the Cubs. Hell, similar to Torres at the same age they have a 17 YO SS currently outplaying all his older peers in the AZL after being the top ranked player in his country at 16. 

I can see similairties to Fulmer/Cespedes with one big difference being Fulmer was on the cusp of the big leagues while Torres still has AA and AAA to navigate. He IS a very very good prospect, some of our less intelligent/nuanced/knowledgeable posters here will take what I've said as a knock on Torres, but by the time this even might bite the Cubs in the ass the farm has likely recovered on the backs of the ~$40 million they spent on IFAs last year. 

[SenorGato]

Oh **** yeah....

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/clayton-richard-dfa-cubs.html

His run last year is definitely appreciated, but those kind of pickups only hold up so long.

Next up is a SP, please! There's plenty left to trade for a cost controlled youngster. I am personally a fan of Soler for Mike Clevinger or Jose de Leon type deal, but who knows wtf is going to happen 5+ days before the deadline.

[NJ]

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

Oh **** yeah....

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/clayton-richard-dfa-cubs.html

His run last year is definitely appreciated, but those kind of pickups only hold up so long.

 

Thank you Creator ... this pus armed dung chewer was guaranteed runs for the opposition. I could not believe they brought him back from the DL let alone brought him in without a 10 run differential. Hopefully he's successful in insurance or whatever he pursues next.

[GimmeShelter]

1 hour ago, NJ said:

Thank you Creator ... this pus armed dung chewer was guaranteed runs for the opposition. I could not believe they brought him back from the DL let alone brought him in without a 10 run differential. Hopefully he's successful in insurance or whatever he pursues next.

Another example of how the majority of "non elite" bullpen arms can have such drastic swings from season to season.  We saw Clippard who was a pretty solid if not very good reliever fall off the face of the earth down the stretch last season. I think the Chicago pen is set up pretty nicely now. Wood, Nathan, Montgomery and Edwards should be sound at handing off any games in which the SP's don't go deep to the big back end of the pen.  Madden also has the arms to play match-ups with his pen.

 Hopefully you see Chapman's debut at home tomorrow night.

[NJ]

1 hour ago, GimmeShelter said:

Another example of how the majority of "non elite" bullpen arms can have such drastic swings from season to season.  We saw Clippard who was a pretty solid if not very good reliever fall off the face of the earth down the stretch last season. I think the Chicago pen is set up pretty nicely now. Wood, Nathan, Montgomery and Edwards should be sound at handing off any games in which the SP's don't go deep to the big back end of the pen.  Madden also has the arms to play match-ups with his pen.

 Hopefully you see Chapman's debut at home tomorrow night.

It's amazing GS - we went from a very poor middle to long relief position to a relatively strong one with Nathan, Edwards, Montgomery (yet unproven as a Cub) and Chapman's arrival allowing us to kick Strop and Rondon down an inning or 2.

It allows for borderline guys like Grimm to be put on a very short leash. When Cahill comes off the DL Grimm is likely gone which is fine by me.

[NJ]

4 hours ago, vanDoug said:

Great post John. Been absent so long, I'm not sure if your post is associated with this comment.

I'm not a "win at all costs" guy and I understand the range of emotions on this trade.

I'm struggling and still processing this. If he's legit and delivers as we all hope, it may remove some of the selling part of our soul sentiment. 

Good to see you Doug - we've got a chance on the ball field this year anyway. Gridiron is another story ... there's always hope eh? 

On Chapman - reading through the following link which closes with the D.A.'s statements on the matter tell me there is at least some confusion on what actually happened.

https://www.scribd.com/document/296195124/Aroldis-Chapman-Closeout-Memo

I'm not saying he's Lilly white in any part of it - but he's served the sentence imposed.

I'm all for giving him a chance to redeem as a person while hopefully sharpening his existing prowess on the pitchers mound.

If you come down for any games - please be sure to let me know.

 

[NJ]

19 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Likelihood of breaking the lineup or not, your #1 prospect is always a highly valuable chip. Trading that in exchange for a rental is a huge risk any way you look at it. But the Cubs have a legit shot at going all the way this year, you have to take that shot and they got the most physically dominant guy in the game at the position they needed the most. Royals did the same thing for Zobrist last year. High risk trade that you have to do. Like it was stated earlier in the thread, reminds me a lot of the Fulmer/Cespedes deal last year, A+ trade for both sides. Chicago gave up a lot, but baseball is a fickle game when it comes to year-to-year stuff, and if you're blessed with a season where you have a shot you 100% have to take it.

I agree that it's a valuable chip. Torres is ranked #41 overall in MLB and better than half of those ahead of him on the list are already in the bigs currently or have been up.

McKinney has regressed from an 83rd overall position in 2015 to out of the top 100 - but he's not without value.

The Yanks win big time as they're realistically not looking at the post season, get 3 prospects, and could get into the Chapman sweepstakes this winter.

I honestly don't think the Cubs are ready yet at the plate for a 2016 WS but absolutely have a decent shot. They had a marginal shot at best with their pen as it existed a week ago. 

I'm hoping that having Chapman in the fold will give us an upper hand in the sweepstakes and he can become a longer term asset in a franchise that's finally poised to win championships.

Ricketts has the dough and has shown he'll spend it (which in itself is a miraculous circumstance for anyone who's followed this team for 50+ as I have) but I'd hope that playing on a winning team with a great manager and a future as bright as any team out there will mean something to him. 

Not expecting it to mean a 25% or better discount - but something.

 

[SenorGato]

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/40102/jason-heyward-on-his-struggles-what-can-i-do-but-keep-working-and-stay-the-course

Quote

According to Inside Edge, Heyward’s 22.9 percent line-drive percentage this season is the highest of his career. Baseball Reference has it even higher, at 27 percent.

According to ESPN Stats and Information, Heyward is hitting .563 when he hits a line drive, a career low, and 156th out of 159 qualified hitters. For comparison, last year he hit .686 on line drives, a previous career low.

Heyward’s batting average on balls in play is just .273. That ranks 135th in baseball. The league average is .311.

 

[SenorGato]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/a ... ocEY23B.97

BA on the Yankees presumed choice of Torres over Jimenez.

If you’re asking who has a better chance to become a star, the answer is Jimenez. Jimenez has the size, strength and power potential that could see him end up as a middle-of-the-lineup stalwart. His frame and present power make it easier to project him as a future 25-30 home run slugger.

But if you’re asking who is the safer bet to be a big league regular, the answer is Torres. Where Jimenez will bring little value defensively—he’s a left fielder who might be able to stretch to fill right field—Torres is a shortstop, one who most scouts believe will be able to stay at the position. So if Jimenez is going to be a useful regular, he has to hit for significant power.

Torres doesn’t have nearly as high a bar to clear to be a productive everyday player. If Torres comes close to reaching the average hit/average power he is projected to have, he’ll be a very productive regular.

So what gives Torres the edge is his increased defensive value, and a slightly better hit tool, but it was surely a difficult decision for the Yankees.

 

It's a damn wise decision on the Yankees' part that still fits where both orgs are with their farms and ML rosters. Jimenez is the kind of gamble the Cubs can handle right now, or still trade, while Torres offers a pretty safe bet as prospects go to reach and hit in the majors. 

[SenorGato]

Cubs tied to Reddick and, more exciting, Carlos Gonzalez via trade. Least exciting is Bruce, but if he came with Raciel Iglesias I can get excited pretty quickly. 

Fowler

Bryant

Rizzo

Contreras

Gonzalez

Russell

Zobrist

Heyward

That would be fun

[SenorGato]

Man, Addison Russell is really turning into a stud. Dude is still just 22, plays a GG caliber SS, and now has a .169 IsoSLG with a nearly 11% walk rate.

[SenorGato]

Wow, there is a buzz with Chapman on the mound. Crowd on their feet to watch this inning, the people are entertained! Gd I hope they pay this guy and maybe even give him a shot to start in 2018 if they do pay him, he is a show all his own.

[SenorGato]

On July 27, 2016 at 3:08 PM, SenorGato said:

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/40102/jason-heyward-on-his-struggles-what-can-i-do-but-keep-working-and-stay-the-course

 

Not that I buy into this completely as there is still plenty of just crap contact. It's just extremely hard to actually buy Heyward is suddenly and permanently Darwin Barney the OFer at 26.

Quote

Despite their recent struggles, the Cubs remain the best and most balanced team in either league. Their offense might be a bit understated, but they walk way more than anyone else, and hit enough fly balls to fully tap into their power. On the mound, they combine a high K rate with a high grounder rate, the combination for which you strive. On top of it all is an elite team defense, the big separator between them, the Nats and Dodgers.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/team-ball-in-play-analysis-an-overview/

Blengino's the only writer I read regularly on FanGraphs so this was nice to see.

[SenorGato]

Fun with arbitrary endpoints:

Addison Russell since June 12 (41 games, 160 PAs

.275/.369/.522/ .377 wOBA/ 137 wRC+

11.3% BBs / 19.4% Ks

8 HRs, 8 2Bs, 1 3B, 17 RS

All without BABIP luck...He has a .300 BABIP in that span.

-------

High praise for Eloy:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBlogfines/status/758549929014939648?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

[Scott Dierking]

31 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Fun with arbitrary endpoints:

Addison Russell since June 12 (41 games, 160 PAs

.275/.369/.522/ .377 wOBA/ 137 wRC+

11.3% BBs / 19.4% Ks

8 HRs, 8 2Bs, 1 3B, 17 RS

All without BABIP luck...He has a .300 BABIP in that span.

-------

High praise for Eloy:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBlogfines/status/758549929014939648?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

Arbitrary start and end points are ridiculously stupid. They create subjectivity into your favorite subject of numbers and stats. 

You are what you are. Don't mince it with artificial timeframes, which you can do for every player. You have to take the hot and the cold streaks in order to measure the whole.

Or if you want to introduce subjective arbitrary points, the Cubs, since their 24-6 start are 37-34. Very pedestrian. I would not claim that to be their true reflection. Just shows how arbitrary points are relatively meaninglessin comparison to the bigger picture.

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Arbitrary start and end points are ridiculously stupid. They create subjectivity into your favorite subject of numbers and stats. 

You are what you are. Don't mince it with artificial timeframes, which you can do for every player. You have to take the hot and the cold streaks in order to measure the whole.

Or if you want to introduce subjective arbitrary points, the Cubs, since their 24-6 start are 37-34. Very pedestrian. I would not claim that to be their true reflection. Just shows how arbitrary points are relatively meaninglessin comparison to the bigger picture.

QUIT TROLLING SCOTT GAWWWSSSSH

Can't you understand Gato just wants to talk to himself in this thread?  It's his "Safe Space", sheesh.  Can't you respect a man's Safe Space?

[SenorGato]

16 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Arbitrary start and end points are ridiculously stupid. 

No sh*t Scotty, that's why it got a whole "fun with arbitrary endpoints" intro. You trolls just are not fun people, and you offer literally nothing insightful on a consistent basis. Stick to trying to break the news that scouting and player development matter.

Now, that said, the key here is that K rate as they tend to stabilize much more quickly than other stats and he's been making more contact as the year moves on. Either way, dude's getting better as a 22 YO with his high pedigree and level of performance as a prospect might.

[Scott Dierking]

8 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

No sh*t Scotty, that's why it got a whole "fun with arbitrary endpoints" intro. You trolls just are not fun people, and you offer literally nothing insightful on a consistent basis. Stick to trying to break the news that scouting and player development matter.

Now, that said, the key here is that K rate as they tend to stabilize much more quickly than other stats rate and he's been making more contact as the year moves on. Either way, kid's getting better as a 22 YO with his high pedigree as a prospect might.

Possibly, or it's a short term aberration. 

You get so upset when people point out your foibles.

[SenorGato]

6 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

.You get so upset when people point out your foibles.

While I'm annoyed you keep trolling this thread despite your words - not out of character from a slimeball troll - I pointed out that the end points were arbitrary and it was just fun. You are not fun, you are a troll, and as trolls do you decided to make it an opportunity to troll yet again.

I wouldn't complain if Russell's just a .755 OPS GG caliber SS, but likely we're looking at more than that offensively in the coming years from the still just 22 YO former top 5 overall prospect.

[SenorGato]

21 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

QUIT TROLLING SCOTT GAWWWSSSSH

It's a useless request. These trolls will say they are done trolling while hanging around looking to gather more trolls, welcome aboard, and come back with more weak points than ever.

 

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

It's useless, but I appreciate you trying to stop your fellow trolls. These trolls will say they are done trolling and will just gather more trolls, welcome aboard, and come back with more weak points than ever.

I will suggest to you that you are on the verge of getting your very own Cubs thread locked again.

This time it will not be because you reported posts ad infinitum that had no business being reported (shows your soft backbone).

This time it will be because you cannot civilly debate differing view points. 

[SenorGato]

19 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I will suggest to you that you are on the verge of getting your very own Cubs thread locked again.

No, it will be locked because roughly 1/3 of it is full of butthurt, slimey trolls like yourself trolling the thread and continuing to do so after multiple posts in which you said you would do otherwise. It is what it is, that you continue to find support says everything about the quality these days. If it happens, it happens, you'll meet your troll goal of making this a more dumb place where trolls get to thrive and I'll be done. This has nothing to do with me not being able to disagreed with, we don't disagree on arbitrary end points you slimebucket troll, and everything to do with a useless, uninsightful troll like yourself being allowed to be such a slimey, weasely little troll. You'll consider it a victory, a scumbag troll and just sh*tty, petty human like yourself no doubt will, and that will be the end of that. 

 

[Scott Dierking]

2 hours ago, SenorGato said:

No, it will be locked because roughly 1/3 of it is full of butthurt, slimey trolls like yourself trolling the thread and continuing to do so after multiple posts in which you said you would do otherwise. It is what it is, that you continue to find support says everything about the quality these days. If it happens, it happens, you'll meet your troll goal of making this a more dumb place where trolls get to thrive and I'll be done. This has nothing to do with me not being able to disagreed with, we don't disagree on arbitrary end points you slimebucket troll, and everything to do with a useless, uninsightful troll like yourself being allowed to be such a slimey, weasely little troll. You'll consider it a victory, a scumbag troll and just sh*tty, petty human like yourself no doubt will, and that will be the end of that. 

 

i will remind you that it was my efforts that had the thread re-opened, after YOU childishly decided to "report" every thread.

Talk about "butthurt" LOL

[NJ]

So ... I realize Madden is a genius and all things Zen and wonderful.

WTF is he doing when we're chasing 6, batting Hammel for the pitcher to lead off an inning with no intention of throwing him and Fowler up next?

Smarty threw a party and nobody came ....

[NJ]

9 hours ago, NJ said:

So ... I realize Madden is a genius and all things Zen and wonderful.

WTF is he doing when we're chasing 6, batting Hammel for the pitcher to lead off an inning with no intention of throwing him and Fowler up next?

Smarty threw a party and nobody came ....

- after the win -

ok Joe.  I'll shut up. Do whatever you want.

[GimmeShelter]

6 hours ago, NJ said:

- after the win -

ok Joe.  I'll shut up. Do whatever you want.

That was insane. Madden went nuts move wise and I guess with the results you have to tip your cap to him for now.