Brick

[Il Mostro]

Just how good has the run game been over that period for the Jets? The Jets have many other problems that need scrutiny other than Brick. Is he aging? Yes. Still very capable till we get better production from another player there.

 

 

As Spermy astutely pointed out. $12MM for mediocre production is a huge hit and ass backwards.  Maybe not a 911 situation, but t is a position that warrants scrutiny.   Chess, not checkers.

[PatsFanTX]

He should only be here for as long as he's the best one on the roster. As soon as someone else is better, including someone acquired this upcoming FA period or draft, he should be gone. He's not playing like a $12M left tackle. Perhaps not even at half that amount. It's not that he's always terrible so much as that he's very inconsistent and that can make it tough to design or run a play (such as it would be anyway with the QB play we've gotten for almost the entirety of his tenure here).

This is something I can never figure out about Jets fans.

For years, you have a LT (which don't grow on trees, BTW) who has been the model of consistency and the ultimate professional. Hell, has Brick ever missed a game?

His $12mm salary was a steal when his was playing at the top of his game when he signed his extension. He deserved to be paid.

Sure his play has slipped a bit over the last few years, but he is still a better LT than 70% of the guys playing today.

[CTM]

This is something I can never figure out about Jets fans.

For years, you have a LT (which don't grow on trees, BTW) who has been the model of consistency and the ultimate professional. Hell, has Brick ever missed a game?

His $12mm salary was a steal when his was playing at the top of his game when he signed his extension. He deserved to be paid.

Sure his play has slipped a bit over the last few years, but he is still a better LT than 70% of the guys playing today.

 

 

link?

[PatsFanTX]

link?

You are missing my point Chan.

Is Brick considered a liability on the OLine? Does he whiff on blocks where the QB is constantly blind-sided? Is is continually jumping off-sides?

The answers to the above is no.

Trust me, Brick is the least of the Jets problems.

[Jetdawgg]

Can't ignore the lack of depth along the OL.  Recipe for disaster.

Depth does not mean replace Brick. We don't even have an adequate back up for him

[Jetdawgg]

As Spermy astutely pointed out. $12MM for mediocre production is a huge hit and ass backwards.  Maybe not a 911 situation, but t is a position that warrants scrutiny.   Chess, not checkers.

Who can we get that is better? Name names...

[Il Mostro]

Who can we get that is better? Name names...

 

 

If you actually read the thread you would know that we were talking about drafting a replacement for the future, hence the "warrants scrutiny" and  "not a 911 situation" references.  

[j4jets]

Depth does not mean replace Brick. We don't even have an adequate back up for him

 

Im sure Wayne Effing Hunter is available. 

[PatsFanTX]

If you actually read the thread you would know that we were talking about drafting a replacement for the future, hence the "warrants scrutiny" and "not a 911 situation" references.

Yep, grab a LT in rounds 3-5 and groom him for the future.

Brick has at least 2 more solid years left in his tank.

[Larz]

wait

 

are we discussing one of the good ones ?

 

wtf ?

[SenorGato]

This is something I can never figure out about Jets fans.

For years, you have a LT (which don't grow on trees, BTW) who has been the model of consistency and the ultimate professional. Hell, has Brick ever missed a game?

His $12mm salary was a steal when his was playing at the top of his game when he signed his extension. He deserved to be paid.

Sure his play has slipped a bit over the last few years, but he is still a better LT than 70% of the guys playing today.

 

Just remember that all players are just stealing money from our friends and allies, the owners.

[Sperm Edwards]

This is something I can never figure out about Jets fans.

For years, you have a LT (which don't grow on trees, BTW) who has been the model of consistency and the ultimate professional. Hell, has Brick ever missed a game?

His $12mm salary was a steal when his was playing at the top of his game when he signed his extension. He deserved to be paid.

Sure his play has slipped a bit over the last few years, but he is still a better LT than 70% of the guys playing today.

Actually, the point is that he hasn't been the model of consistency for years (other than staying consistently healthy, which isn't nothing). His play has slipped quite a bit more than "a bit" the last few years. He went from (depending on who's grading) top 5 in pass protection to fluctuating between average and below average.

 

They're outright below average in running his way (left tackle runs = 19th, left end runs = 30th). Granted, he's not the only blocker the team uses on these runs, but compare them to runs from LG to RG (where we're top 10) and right end runs (where we're top 5). Brick is a noticeably below average run blocker by any measure and by the eyeball test. He was probably merely average in this regard when he was playing at his highest level.

 

His slipping is not remotely just "a bit" as you're putting it. It's an enormous drop-off from what he once was. 

 

If he's the best left tackle on the roster, and it's very obvious that's the case through August, then keep him around for another year and hope he bounces back. Otherwise, bounce him to the free agency pool and see if anyone else is interested in having a below-average represent nearly 10% of their cap because he was a top 10 tackle years ago.

[Villain The Foe]

This is something I can never figure out about Jets fans.

For years, you have a LT (which don't grow on trees, BTW) who has been the model of consistency and the ultimate professional. Hell, has Brick ever missed a game?

His $12mm salary was a steal when his was playing at the top of his game when he signed his extension. He deserved to be paid.

Sure his play has slipped a bit over the last few years, but he is still a better LT than 70% of the guys playing today.

You dont watch Jet football games my friend. 

[PatsFanTX]

Actually, the point is that he hasn't been the model of consistency for years (other than staying consistently healthy, which isn't nothing). His play has slipped quite a bit more than "a bit" the last few years. He went from (depending on who's grading) top 5 in pass protection to fluctuating between average and below average.

They're outright below average in running his way (left tackle runs = 19th, left end runs = 30th). Granted, he's not the only blocker the team uses on these runs, but compare them to runs from LG to RG (where we're top 10) and right end runs (where we're top 5). Brick is a noticeably below average run blocker by any measure and by the eyeball test. He was probably merely average in this regard when he was playing at his highest level.

His slipping is not remotely just "a bit" as you're putting it. It's an enormous drop-off from what he once was.

If he's the best left tackle on the roster, and it's very obvious that's the case through August, then keep him around for another year and hope he bounces back. Otherwise, bounce him to the free agency pool and see if anyone else is interested in having a below-average represent nearly 10% of their cap because he was a top 10 tackle years ago.

You've been one of my favorite posters over the years Spermy, and we usually see eye to eye.

Let's say we agree to disagree on Brick.

BTW, who would you replace him with, especially if the Jets land a young QB?

[Sperm Edwards]

You've been one of my favorite posters over the years Spermy, and we usually see eye to eye.

Let's say we agree to disagree on Brick.

BTW, who would you replace him with, especially if the Jets land a young QB?

 

Re-read the last paragraph of mine you just quoted. I didn't say dump him to dump him. But I simply don't think you realize what a massive, noticeable drop there's been in his play. That being said, I certainly allow that he could bounce back, so you let them decide on the field. I do think he's gotten a free pass these past 2 years, relying on past performance plus the obvious reality that the team had no one else any better.

 

There is a draft coming up. There is a free agency period coming up. I would start looking there. Don't yet know who's going to reach free agency, though. If he makes it there I'd certainly inquire what Dunlap's demands are.

[patman]

Brick is a beast in pass protection. A rock solide 10-15 year blindside protector. He's no Jon Ogden or Walter Jones but who is. He only makes like half of what the best LT's in the game make and there really isn't much of a dropoff. So I like that under the radar thing. Same with RIchardson and Wilkerson. Plus the guy is reliable as hell and he has a bunch of great years left in him. Great pick that worked out for us.

He makes 1/2? do you understand that his cap hit averages 13 mill a year for the next 3 years, he is one of the highest paid olineman in the league. As a matter of fact I think he is the 2nd second highest.

[Sperm Edwards]

I didn't even realize this until just now. Take any one website's grading for what it's worth, which isn't 100% objective, but no elite players are going to get ranked as mediocre or crap in any reputable grading system.

I don't have a subscription to see their updated ranking, so this is only pre-November. (If anyone has their - or another site's - updated numbers, I'm sure we'd all be interested).

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2014/10/is_jets_left_tackle_dbrickashaw_ferguson_declining_not_if_you_ask_rex_ryan.html

This season, PFF rates Ferguson 43rd of 72 tackles in the NFL. He is 21st in pass blocking and 61st in run blocking. Ferguson was seventh overall in the tackle ratings in 2012, and 42nd last year. From 2009-11, he was fifth, fourth and 25th.

Holy crap I knew he'd dropped off a lot, but I had no idea he was THIS bad compared to the rest of the league.

 

2011 = 25th

2012 = 7th

2013 = 42nd

2014 = 43rd

 

For a left tackle, eating up some 10% of the team's cap, to not even rank in the top 32 NFL tackles is freaking horrible. That's it's been this way for 2 years in a row makes it even worse. Hopefully he can bounce back, and maybe a new coaching staff will bring that out of him. But that is a disgusting ranking and he's earned competition in '15. Whether he sees this competition is another thing, but he doesn't deserve another free pass.

[HessStation]

Some of you guys are dicks.

[Jetdawgg]

If you actually read the thread you would know that we were talking about drafting a replacement for the future, hence the "warrants scrutiny" and  "not a 911 situation" references.

I have read the entire thread, thank you. I actually can have the thought that the so called replacement may not be as good as what we have now. This is the NFL and not Madden. No such place as draftalefttackle.com

[Jetdawgg]

Im sure Wayne Effing Hunter is available.

Lol

[Jetdawgg]

I didn't even realize this until just now. Take any one website's grading for what it's worth, which isn't 100% objective, but no elite players are going to get ranked as mediocre or crap in any reputable grading system.I don't have a subscription to see their updated ranking, so this is only pre-November. (If anyone has their - or another site's - updated numbers, I'm sure we'd all be interested).

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2014/10/is_jets_left_tackle_dbrickashaw_ferguson_declining_not_if_you_ask_rex_ryan.htmlThis season, PFF rates Ferguson 43rd of 72 tackles in the NFL. He is 21st in pass blocking and 61st in run blocking. Ferguson was seventh overall in the tackle ratings in 2012, and 42nd last year. From 2009-11, he was fifth, fourth and 25th.

Holy crap I knew he'd dropped off a lot, but I had no idea he was THIS bad compared to the rest of the league. 2011 = 25th2012 = 7th2013 = 42nd2014 = 43rd For a left tackle, eating up some 10% of the team's cap, to not even rank in the top 32 NFL tackles is freaking horrible. That's it's been this way for 2 years in a row makes it even worse. Hopefully he can bounce back, and maybe a new coaching staff will bring that out of him. But that is a disgusting ranking and he's earned competition in '15. Whether he sees this competition is another thing, but he doesn't deserve another free pass.

Hmmmm...I wonder who has been QB of the NY Jets during that time period?

[Sperm Edwards]

Hmmmm...I wonder who has been QB of the NY Jets during that time period?

What of it? Geno Smith putting forth a bad season doesn't excuse terrible blocking for him and the backs. 61st in run blocking is an embarrassment, considering in any single week there are only 64 tackles, including bad rookies and backups forced into starting roles. Lastly, Mangold is arguably the best center in the game again with that same QB play behind him. It's an excuse but not that much of an excuse.

We need much better play than he's been giving us. The team has several weaknesses and sadly LT has been one of them. There's no way to rationalize him not even being a top 32 tackle (it would still be bad if he barely made that cut, which he didn't even do). I genuinely always liked Brick, but his performance suggests he's been coasting.

[jason423]

I didn't even realize this until just now. Take any one website's grading for what it's worth, which isn't 100% objective, but no elite players are going to get ranked as mediocre or crap in any reputable grading system.

I don't have a subscription to see their updated ranking, so this is only pre-November. (If anyone has their - or another site's - updated numbers, I'm sure we'd all be interested).

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2014/10/is_jets_left_tackle_dbrickashaw_ferguson_declining_not_if_you_ask_rex_ryan.html

This season, PFF rates Ferguson 43rd of 72 tackles in the NFL. He is 21st in pass blocking and 61st in run blocking. Ferguson was seventh overall in the tackle ratings in 2012, and 42nd last year. From 2009-11, he was fifth, fourth and 25th.

 

Holy crap I knew he'd dropped off a lot, but I had no idea he was THIS bad compared to the rest of the league.

 

2011 = 25th

2012 = 7th

2013 = 42nd

2014 = 43rd

 

For a left tackle, eating up some 10% of the team's cap, to not even rank in the top 32 NFL tackles is freaking horrible. That's it's been this way for 2 years in a row makes it even worse. Hopefully he can bounce back, and maybe a new coaching staff will bring that out of him. But that is a disgusting ranking and he's earned competition in '15. Whether he sees this competition is another thing, but he doesn't deserve another free pass.

 

 

I didn't even realize this until just now. Take any one website's grading for what it's worth, which isn't 100% objective, but no elite players are going to get ranked as mediocre or crap in any reputable grading system.

I don't have a subscription to see their updated ranking, so this is only pre-November. (If anyone has their - or another site's - updated numbers, I'm sure we'd all be interested).

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2014/10/is_jets_left_tackle_dbrickashaw_ferguson_declining_not_if_you_ask_rex_ryan.html

This season, PFF rates Ferguson 43rd of 72 tackles in the NFL. He is 21st in pass blocking and 61st in run blocking. Ferguson was seventh overall in the tackle ratings in 2012, and 42nd last year. From 2009-11, he was fifth, fourth and 25th.

 

Holy crap I knew he'd dropped off a lot, but I had no idea he was THIS bad compared to the rest of the league.

 

2011 = 25th

2012 = 7th

2013 = 42nd

2014 = 43rd

 

For a left tackle, eating up some 10% of the team's cap, to not even rank in the top 32 NFL tackles is freaking horrible. That's it's been this way for 2 years in a row makes it even worse. Hopefully he can bounce back, and maybe a new coaching staff will bring that out of him. But that is a disgusting ranking and he's earned competition in '15. Whether he sees this competition is another thing, but he doesn't deserve another free pass.

 

 

He currently ranks 32nd in the PFF metrics. Ferguson's career pretty much peaked in the 2009 and 2010 seasons, which was when he was at his most consistent level of play. I think he still gets praise because he is a name talent and can still have stretches where he is very good, but he still gets beat at times as if he isnt even there. He was never a great run blocker but its now kind of back to early career levels. He just loses guys at times and doesnt get down the field the way he used to. 

 

Overall the biggest issue fans always had with him is that he was selected in a spot where you expected dominance and he was never that level of player. He was very good but he was never close to best in the NFL. He came around when expections were players like Pace, Ogden, Boselli, etc..and he was never close.  He was never as good as Joe Thomas and did not have a peak like Jake Long, though hes going to have a far better career. I would think if you look at tackles drafted as highly as Brick hes middle of the road, kind of like Trent Williams. Very good but not incredible players.

 

But I do think that the Jets will likely be planning his replacement soon.  The question is do they take a very proactive approach and draft high as soon as they see someone they really like or wait things out and potentially have to go for a year with journeyman level play and wait to draft/sign a new guy. 

[DaBallhawk]

PFF is a bunch of horse sh*t. I remember them having Antoine Winfield as their best corner over Revis (in his prime, when he was with us). Their grades/ranks rarely make sense. They have a lot of sh*tty O-Linemen up there in their rankings and a lot of established guys at the bottom, because they have no clue what they're talking about. Brick rarely gets beat, he is one of the better tackles in the game and I watch him every week. I dare anybody to point out the many times he's gotten beat (clean) and struggled bigtime. It just doesn't happen.

[Jetdawgg]

What of it? Geno Smith putting forth a bad season doesn't excuse terrible blocking for him and the backs. 61st in run blocking is an embarrassment, considering in any single week there are only 64 tackles, including bad rookies and backups forced into starting roles. Lastly, Mangold is arguably the best center in the game again with that same QB play behind him. It's an excuse but not that much of an excuse.

We need much better play than he's been giving us. The team has several weaknesses and sadly LT has been one of them. There's no way to rationalize him not even being a top 32 tackle (it would still be bad if he barely made that cut, which he didn't even do). I genuinely always liked Brick, but his performance suggests he's been coasting.

Geno Smith has had two terrible seasons. The only game I saw well QB'd by the Jets this season was the Steelers game. Vick was the QB that Sunday.

I just do not have the time to teach you here about how the QB is to call out signals so that the OL and RB will know who to pick up on a blitz, or even where the pressure looks to be coming from. With Winters also an albatross at LG don't you think Brick may struggle even a bit?

Winters was a turnstile at LG. Just how many times did Green Bay abuse him that game? What about Detroit? Chicago? Can't you even see how Brick may have to shade a bit more inside to save the QB from constant pressure? This is the NFL. A copy cat league. All of the teams attempt to do the same things. Some teams are better than others. The bad teams cannot fix the problems.

The Jets are a very bad team. Rex left Winters in there till he was injured before changing. Have you ever heard Brick complain about what he has been doing to keep Geno on his feet when Winters was playing? Look at the film. A lot of truth is there.

As for Mangold, he may be a borderline HOF'er. Clearly Brick is not. However, Brick is a very stable to very good LT. He and Mangold deserved better from the NY Jets FO during their careers here.

Finally, if you are using PFF as your standard of NFL intelligence, please be assured that they are not even the tin standard.

[Jetdawgg]

PFF is a bunch of horse sh*t. I remember them having Antoine Winfield as their best corner over Revis (in his prime, when he was with us). Their grades/ranks rarely make sense. They have a lot of sh*tty O-Linemen up there in their rankings and a lot of established guys at the bottom, because they have no clue what they're talking about. Brick rarely gets beat, he is one of the better tackles in the game and I watch him every week. I dare anybody to point out the many times he's gotten beat (clean) and struggled bigtime. It just doesn't happen.

They can't name players who beat Brick constantly. I have seen him recently have a bit of trouble with Jones in NE. Jones is a real speed rusher however, he can't stay healthy. RT and RG is more of an issue than LT on the Jets. The Jets can run the football very well though. This just shows me just how bad our Big mouth QB is.

[Barton]

With a better QB to protect (a good QB makes his Oline look better, as he knows how to shift in the pocket) and a strong head coach, Brick will bounce back. He's had an off year, but he's still a good player IMO.

[DaBallhawk]

They can't name players who beat Brick constantly. I have seen him recently have a bit of trouble with Jones in NE. Jones is a real speed rusher however, he can't stay healthy. RT and RG is more of an issue than LT on the Jets. The Jets can run the football very well though. This just shows me just how bad our Big mouth QB is.

 

Jones is a handful, I don't think there's any tackle in the league that could shut him down the entire game if they had to block him 1 on 1. He's just a very good pass rusher and he beat Brick that one time. There's no shame in that.

[Jetdawgg]

I just wonder how many times Geno has messed up his drop backs? Just how many times his pocket awareness did not sense the pressure? The Jets have no QB and it makes the rest of the problems minor.

Jones is a real handful for any LT, I agree with you. From what I see here though, they could not even name him. Just stating something without fact can be a waste of time.

[Sperm Edwards]

Geno Smith has had two terrible seasons. The only game I saw well QB'd by the Jets this season was the Steelers game. Vick was the QB that Sunday.

I just do not have the time to teach you here about how the QB is to call out signals so that the OL and RB will know who to pick up on a blitz, or even where the pressure looks to be coming from. With Winters also an albatross at LG don't you think Brick may struggle even a bit?

Winters was a turnstile at LG. Just how many times did Green Bay abuse him that game? What about Detroit? Chicago? Can't you even see how Brick may have to shade a bit more inside to save the QB from constant pressure? This is the NFL. A copy cat league. All of the teams attempt to do the same things. Some teams are better than others. The bad teams cannot fix the problems.

The Jets are a very bad team. Rex left Winters in there till he was injured before changing. Have you ever heard Brick complain about what he has been doing to keep Geno on his feet when Winters was playing? Look at the film. A lot of truth is there.

As for Mangold, he may be a borderline HOF'er. Clearly Brick is not. However, Brick is a very stable to very good LT. He and Mangold deserved better from the NY Jets FO during their careers here.

Finally, if you are using PFF as your standard of NFL intelligence, please be assured that they are not even the tin standard.

No, I looked up PFF well afterward and was unaware of his lowly rank until then. I can see on my own he gets flat out beaten 1 on 1 to his left, which is not on Winters or Aboushi or Smith. Also, while Smith is severely lacking as a QB he's not a total statue. His predecessor was the one who used to just stand there. And every starting tackle who's played better than Brick, which it turns out is most of them, doesn't get great or good QB play. He was a top tackle in '09 and '10 with garbage QB play, and the team ran far more than it passed which not help him.

Brick is inconsistent, which is the opposite of your claim. He's merely okay. That's fine but it's senseless to use up 10% of the team's spend limit on merely ok unless it's a QB.

I'm surprised anyone could watch the Jets the past 2 years and conclude he's been a consistent bright spot on the team (other than not being injured). Jets should look to upgrade and should only bring him back if he looks like the Ferguson of 5 years ago, or unless they made no effort to find his replacement.

[Matt39]

Jones is a handful, I don't think there's any tackle in the league that could shut him down the entire game if they had to block him 1 on 1. He's just a very good pass rusher and he beat Brick that one time. There's no shame in that.

 

Wish we had drafted him...oh wellz

[patman]

PFF is a bunch of horse sh*t. I remember them having Antoine Winfield as their best corner over Revis (in his prime, when he was with us). Their grades/ranks rarely make sense. They have a lot of sh*tty O-Linemen up there in their rankings and a lot of established guys at the bottom, because they have no clue what they're talking about. Brick rarely gets beat, he is one of the better tackles in the game and I watch him every week. I dare anybody to point out the many times he's gotten beat (clean) and struggled bigtime. It just doesn't happen.

Amen, The worse thing that has happened to football forum discussions is Collingsworth investing in that group.  The 2nd of which was 3 or 4 teams hiring them for snap count info on opposition. They have no idea of when the corner turns the guy over to the safety, what the safety's read is in a certain alignment, What the blocking assignments were.

 

In one game, Mankins pulled and the d lineman shot the vacated gap and they assigned a sack allowed to Mankins.  One year, about 5 years ago both Brady and Manning were not listed in the top half of the qbs.

[Sperm Edwards]

With a better QB to protect (a good QB makes his Oline look better, as he knows how to shift in the pocket) and a strong head coach, Brick will bounce back. He's had an off year, but he's still a good player IMO.

Well, apparently he's had off-years in 3 of the past 4 seasons. The last 2 were just the worst 2 of them.

[Jetdawgg]

No, I looked up PFF well afterward and was unaware of his lowly rank until then. I can see on my own he gets flat out beaten 1 on 1 to his left, which is not on Winters or Aboushi or Smith. Also, while Smith is severely lacking as a QB he's not a total statue. His predecessor was the one who used to just stand there. And every starting tackle who's played better than Brick, which it turns out is most of them, doesn't get great or good QB play. He was a top tackle in '09 and '10 with garbage QB play, and the team ran far more than it passed which not help him.

Brick is inconsistent, which is the opposite of your claim. He's merely okay. That's fine but it's senseless to use up 10% of the team's spend limit on merely ok unless it's a QB.

I'm surprised anyone could watch the Jets the past 2 years and conclude he's been a consistent bright spot on the team (other than not being injured). Jets should look to upgrade and should only bring him back if he looks like the Ferguson of 5 years ago, or unless they made no effort to find his replacement.

Again, please name the players who are flat out beating Brick. I even posted a player whom I feel is very challenging to him.

Smith is not as good as Sanchez was here. Maybe he will be, but to date I don't see it. If Brick is ok, then what do you consider the Jets RT? Again, please name someone who the Jets can get that is better. Please don't just say the draft. You clearly see Brick as a real problem, have a real solution is what I am stating.

Most people watching the Jets the past two years know that Geno Smith is the major problem for this offense. Once that issue is resolved, then in a year or two we can upgrade LT.

[PatsFanTX]

Wish we had drafted him...oh wellz

Rex thought Coples was better.