Weigh In On D'Brick D'Bate

[Beerfish]

Jason is also into cutting D'Brick? Get it done! It makes an insane amount of sense for the Jets if they want to be able to do anything in FA this winter.

Does he also have not viable replacement lined up for traditionally the most important position on a team?

Cutting D'Brick strictly from a financial angle makes perfect sense.  In the end will the net savings in resources this year equal the net long term resources used to fill the spot?  That is my question.  As I've said before I think we as fans are a bit spoiled with the LT position, virtually no problem for 10 years.  Play beginning to decline?  Yes but we have had zero injuries, zero character issues, competent play even the last few years.  I look at other teams, beset by injuries using high picks on busts paying for free agents that don;t work out.  Just becasue D'Brick worked out as a 10 year starter doesn't mean the next guy we draft will do so. 

We cut him and all other problems are knocked down a full notch and LT becomes #1 priority.

 

 

[Larz]

so the accountant weighs in and it influences people ?   did you learn nothing from idzik ?

did you see the broncos/pats* game ?   brady knew the defense they were in, and still couldn't move the ball

 

because his LT was getting eaten alive

lol

[CanadaSteve]

Does he also have not viable replacement lined up for traditionally the most important position on a team?

Cutting D'Brick strictly from a financial angle makes perfect sense.  In the end will the net savings in resources this year equal the net long term resources used to fill the spot?  That is my question.  As I've said before I think we as fans are a bit spoiled with the LT position, virtually no problem for 10 years.  Play beginning to decline?  Yes but we have had zero injuries, zero character issues, competent play even the last few years.  I look at other teams, beset by injuries using high picks on busts paying for free agents that don;t work out.  Just becasue D'Brick worked out as a 10 year starter doesn't mean the next guy we draft will do so. a

We cut him and all other problems are knocked down a full notch and LT becomes #1 priority.

 

 

Couldn't agree more.....He is probably going to the HOF, and Jet fans want him gone.  Has his play slipped?  You bet, but unless you have bona fide replacement lined up pre-draft, or you draft a day one starter, you can't cut him until AT LEAST after June 1, when it makes sense financially.  I think Bitonti is mistaken; he does not have the leverage, and the contract is set up to show it.  If he is not willing to renegotiate, he will be let go.  They will find someone to play the position for a year, and then draft high next year an LT.  B

But if he renegotiates, which I think he will, he should be playing the position for 1-2 more years, giving the Jets enough time to draft his replacement and let him learn from one of the best LT's the past 10 years in the league.

[bitonti]

   They will find someone to play the position for a year, and then draft high next year an LT. 

Or in other words they will cut Brick and tank the season. How else will they get up to the rare air where LT usually are drafted? 

The "finding someone to play the position for a year" is not a well thought out plan. There's not even a backup on the roster 

[BroadwayJets]

Or in other words they will cut Brick and tank the season. How else will they get up to the rare air where LT usually are drafted? 

The "finding someone to play the position for a year" is not a well thought out plan. There's not even a backup on the roster 

Why is it automatically "tanking the season" if we cut brick? He's not good anymore. You're just going to have to accept that. I know you want names, but as you just said in the other thread, Oher is underrated. He is now, because he had a tremendous year. He sucked last season, and the Panthers signed him like halfway through training camp. My point is, have some confidence in your GM. There is turnover in the NFL without using a top ten pick, let's hope Mac will pick the right guys to come in to replace the positions we need to replace. Not every starting left tackle is a top ten pick. 

Maccagnan will address his contract this offseason. To quote sperm, he's just not worth that money anymore for the level of play he gives us, and I'd be worried if Mac doesn't see that. 

[chirorob]

Couldn't agree more.....He is probably going to the HOF, and Jet fans want him gone.  Has his play slipped?  You bet, but unless you have bona fide replacement lined up pre-draft, or you draft a day one starter, you can't cut him until AT LEAST after June 1, when it makes sense financially.  I think Bitonti is mistaken; he does not have the leverage, and the contract is set up to show it.  If he is not willing to renegotiate, he will be let go.  They will find someone to play the position for a year, and then draft high next year an LT.  B

But if he renegotiates, which I think he will, he should be playing the position for 1-2 more years, giving the Jets enough time to draft his replacement and let him learn from one of the best LT's the past 10 years in the league.

I don't think he's going to the HOF.  But he's a good player and incredibly durable. 

[bitonti]

Why is it automatically "tanking the season" if we cut brick? He's not good anymore. You're just going to have to accept that. I know you want names, but as you just said in the other thread, Oher is underrated. He is now, because he had a tremendous year. He sucked last season, and the Panthers signed him like halfway through training camp. My point is, have some confidence in your GM. There is turnover in the NFL without using a top ten pick, let's hope Mac will pick the right guys to come in to replace the positions we need to replace. Not every starting left tackle is a top ten pick. 

Maccagnan will address his contract this offseason. To quote sperm, he's just not worth that money anymore for the level of play he gives us, and I'd be worried if Mac doesn't see that. 

The post Canada Steve made was cut Brick, find someone and draft high. My question is how are the jets drafting high? It's almost like he knows cutting the LT and replacing him with a nobody means they will end up top 10. And follow up if the JEts do end up drafting high, wouldn't they need a QB more? 

 

You are right not every tackle is a top 10 pick but 2/3 of all starting NFL left tackles were first rounders. 

Side note there was an article today that Cam Newton approached Oher (another first rounder) personally during free agency and pitched him hard for the Panthers. His exact words were "I need you." He might have been underrated by media but not by the players who would have him protect his blind side. 

[#27TheDominator]

We did draft his replacement.  He just sucks. Bender, Garner, Ducasse, Winters, Aboushi, Dozier.  All those guys were college tackles, drafted by the Jets to develop.  They all pretty much suck.  Strangely, the one that go the least opportunity here (Garner) may have been the best pro.

[BroadwayJets]

The post Canada Steve made was cut Brick, find someone and draft high. My question is how are the jets drafting high? It's almost like he knows cutting the LT and replacing him with a nobody means they will end up top 10. And follow up if the JEts do end up drafting high, wouldn't they need a QB more? 

 

You are right not every tackle is a top 10 pick but 2/3 of all starting NFL left tackles were first rounders. 

Side note there was an article today that Cam Newton approached Oher (another first rounder) personally during free agency and pitched him hard for the Panthers. His exact words were "I need you." He might have been underrated by media but not by the players who would have him protect his blind side. 

Tennessee Titans

 

 

Oher with the Tennessee Titans, 2014

On March 14, 2014, Oher signed a four-year, $20 million contract with the Tennessee Titans.^[24] Oher started 11 games for the Titans, and was placed on injured reserve on December 13 after missing the previous two games due to a toe injury. Pro Football Focus graded Oher as the 74th best tackle out of 78 for the 2014 season.^[25] The Titans released Oher on February 5, 2015.^[26]

 

^{^From wikipedia.}

 

So, I was wrong, i thought nobody wanted him and wasn't signed until July or something. But even still, didn't make it past a year of a 4 year contract with the Titans and was one of the worst tackles in the league. Panthers have one of the best OLs in the league, and the Titans' line sucks. So maybe we should take his highs and lows with a grain of salt but the point remains; Brick has clearly digressed, and will either have to take a pay cut or be cut. He's not irreplaceable, and we shouldn't allow our past view of him skew his potential now, because they're two different people. We play some solid defenses this upcoming season with good pass rushers, Brick will likely be manhandled, and unless we get lucky, the replacement will too. Only difference is the replacement won't count for $14 million off the cap. 

[Beerfish]

1-1 Eric Fisher

1-2 Luke Joeckel

1-2 Greg Robinson

1-3 Joe Thomas

1-4 Ryan Kalil

1-4 D’Brick Ferguson

1-4 Trent Williams

1-6 Russell Okung

1-6 Jake Matthews

1-8 Eugene Monroe

1-9 Tryon Smith

1-9 Erick Flowers

1-11 Taylor Lewan

1-15 Braden Albert

1-17 Nate Solder

1-22 Anthony Costanzo

1-23 Michael Oher

1-23 Riley Reiff

1-26 Duane Brown

1-28 Joe Staley

2-34 Donovan Smith

2-41 Cordy Glenn

2-55 Andrew Whitworth

3-69 Jared Veldaher

3-70 Ryan Harris

3-76 Terron Armstead

4-109 David Baktihari

7^th round Kelvin Beachum

7^th round King Dunlap

7^th round Jared Leno

UDFA Donald Penn

UDFA Jason Peters

I guess we could hope we get Brady like luck and get a Jason Peters udfa or a Terron Armstead 3rd rounder but as you can see teams invest HEAVILY at LT.  some of the real high picks are no great shakes.  Other than Peters all the other 'make do' players suck and those teams are looking for replacements.  And this list is just current LT's from depth charts it is not including 1st round players like Carimi, Sherrod, Bulaga, Jason Smith, Jake Long, Chris Williams, Sam Baker all of who could not play LT were always hurt or were busts.

 

We can get a temp guy but at the end of the years like all of the other temp guys above we will be screaming to get a real LT the next year and burning up big resources to get one.

[bitonti]

He's not irreplaceable

It's true he's not irreplaceable but the team doesn't have an option on the roster and it's not clear what will be available in free agency.  he's actually one of the hardest players on the team to replace.

[BroadwayJets]

It's true he's not irreplaceable but the team doesn't have an option on the roster and it's not clear what will be available in free agency.  he's actually one of the hardest players on the team to replace.

I agree that LT is one of the more important positions, but he's only the hardest player to replace because he plays LT, not because he's great at it anymore. 

[Beerfish]

I agree that LT is one of the more important positions, but he's only the hardest player to replace because he plays LT, not because he's great at it anymore. 

Agreed, except he is great in one key area, durability.

[BroadwayJets]

Agreed, except he is great in one key area, durability.

Agreed.

[SenorGato]

Most valuable position on the field....have to tank to draft a LT....These dont sound believable. I'm out of the loop but D'Brick sounds like a replacement level LT these days, where it won't take much to be an upgrade. Sounds like he's better off with a team like NO or AZ.

Like last year with Bulaga, I'm hoping they pursue a well rounded and young FA OT. Andre Smith, maybe Bobby Massie, Sebastian Vollmer, Schwartz...Think all of these guys have at least some potential to move to LT here. Seems like the game is heading towards more versatile and interchangeable OL, especially at the T position. Turns out teams found out they could throw a pass rusher at the traditionally slower and more run oriented RT and win, so the RT position has had to evolve a little. Now you have guys like Smith, Bulaga, Lane Johnson - highly thought of and drafted LT prospects - playing the RT position with occasional talks of moving to LT eventually or in the right situation.

[LIJetsFan]

Considering the 5 m is dead regardless whether Brick is cut or not, the question becomes can we find a jag or better for 9 m?  Someone who can run block and not be a total disaster at pass blocking.  Is that reasonable for 9 m or just a pipe dream?   No FA expert here, just posing the question.

Can we count on Gailey giving the jag the chip help that he might need along with Carpenter's taking up some of the slack?  I don't see why not as both coach and player are in their 2nd season and have learned a thing or two about the abilities of their team/teammates.

Seems like a reasonable gamble to me.     

[SenorGato]

Considering the 5 m is dead regardless whether Brick is cut or not, the question becomes can we find a jag or better for 9 m?  Someone who can run block and not be a total disaster at pass blocking.  Is that reasonable for 9 m or just a pipe dream?   No FA expert here, just posing the question.

Can we count on Gailey giving the jag the chip help that he might need along with Carpenter's taking up some of the slack?  I don't see why not as both coach and player are in their 2nd season and have learned a thing or two about the abilities of their team/teammates.

Seems like a reasonable gamble to me.     

$9m seems to be on the higher end. Whitworth, the it LT this year, extended for that much so probably the top FA LT gets a little more than that. Definitely think the Jets can get someone interesting for $9m or less considering most of the younger, interesting OTs have most of their game experience at RT.

[Beerfish]

The LT group is nothing to write home about this year.

Massie, didn't look good for zona in the playoffs and was a RT

Jake Long......lol

Cordy Glen probably the top guy but Buff will probably resign him.

Andre Smith, more of a RT

Schwartz RT and the Browns oline did not put up good numbers last year.

Ryan Harris, currently playing LT for Denver not by their choice.

Russell Okung Injury concerns need shoulder surgery (has missed 24 games in his 6 seasons, never started all16)

 

[bitonti]

 considering most of the younger, interesting OTs have most of their game experience at RT.

there's a reason why those players are getting game experience at RT. 

if they could play LT their agents would be aware of that fact and get them more money 

as Beerfish said, why not move Breno to LT? 

 

By the way Dbrick isn't as good as he was but better than "replacement level." He's a starter and LT starters cost money. 

[SenorGato]

there's a reason why those players are getting game experience at RT. 

if they could play LT their agents would be aware of that fact and get them more money 

as Beerfish said, why not move Breno to LT? 

 

By the way Dbrick isn't as good as he was but better than "replacement level." He's a starter and LT starters cost money. 

Yep, multiple for some...Their agents would be halted in their tracks because they haven't played LT - that little distinction is the house's leverage.

Giacomini has nearly nothing in common with Smith/Vollmer/Schwartz - he's an average starting RT heading into his age 30 season while those guys are all among the best RTs in the league heading into their late 20s. That said, sure - he'd be around to compete, sounds like he has been the best OT on the team the past two seasons.

Like I said, I'm mostly out of the loop, but all I've heard the past couple years is that D'Brick's play has fallen dramatically. That isn't isolated to this debate either, it's something many posters here have noted for a while. The way he's been described reads like a relatively easily replaced OT. Yes, LT super special position with unique this and that valuable yada yada....all the more reason to move on from someone who has clearly seen a massive drop in performance at the position in recent years. Really sounds like a team with a more pass heavy attack and a more proven veteran QB, say the Saints, could utilize him better than the Jets.

[Freemanm]

Here's the problem: good tackles are very tough to find, and when you do find them, they'll all expect the same money Brick is making. For example, Russ Okung, depending on the severity of his injury, will want at least what Trent Williams is making. There will be some other FA offensive tackles this year, but they are going to want a ton of money (not as much as Brick but close) and they're not half as good. Joe Barksdale is probably going to want in the $10m/season range, and Andre Smith who's old will want at least what Brick is making now. You could go with a younger dude and pay him less, but if you think Fitz got abused because of Brick this year, wait until the Jets do just that. 

It's definitely a bind, but in the end, I would keep Brick another season or two.

[CanadaSteve]

The post Canada Steve made was cut Brick, find someone and draft high. My question is how are the jets drafting high? It's almost like he knows cutting the LT and replacing him with a nobody means they will end up top 10. And follow up if the JEts do end up drafting high, wouldn't they need a QB more? 

 

You are right not every tackle is a top 10 pick but 2/3 of all starting NFL left tackles were first rounders. 

Side note there was an article today that Cam Newton approached Oher (another first rounder) personally during free agency and pitched him hard for the Panthers. His exact words were "I need you." He might have been underrated by media but not by the players who would have him protect his blind side. 

Sorry, I re-read my post, and I did NOT make a very clear point.

He is cuttable, but only after June 1.  Talk of cutting him sooner is foolish at over $5 million in dead money.

So that is what I meant that he is cuttable; it can be done from a financial point of view, and the contract is set up that way.  He is ONLY cuttable though if they bring someone in via free agency, or through the draft.  But from his standpoint, are you willing to renegotiate and take a slight pay cut that will be more cap friendly and agreeable to his talent level now, or do you gamble that the Jets will need him, then have them find a replacement?  If he gambles and gets replaced, he won't be released until after June 1, making it harder to find a team to play for at a fraction of what he could have made had he of renegotiated in the first place.

[CanadaSteve]

And as for him not being a HOF candidate, he has played for 10 years, was an NFL all-rookie team pick, has gone to three pro bowls, been named multiple times as a top 100 player in the league, and has NEVER missed a snap in his 10 year career.

I think those numbers might be good enough to make a HOF argument.

[Barton]

And as for him not being a HOF candidate, he has played for 10 years, was an NFL all-rookie team pick, has gone to three pro bowls, been named multiple times as a top 100 player in the league, and has NEVER missed a snap in his 10 year career.

I think those numbers might be good enough to make a HOF argument.

He wont sniff the HOF and I like D'Brick.

No reason why D'Brick cant be the LT next year. Jets need to upgrade RT and RG first.

[LIJetsFan]

Sorry, I re-read my post, and I did NOT make a very clear point.

He is cuttable, but only after June 1.  Talk of cutting him sooner is foolish at over $5 million in dead money.

So that is what I meant that he is cuttable; it can be done from a financial point of view, and the contract is set up that way.  He is ONLY cuttable though if they bring someone in via free agency, or through the draft.  But from his standpoint, are you willing to renegotiate and take a slight pay cut that will be more cap friendly and agreeable to his talent level now, or do you gamble that the Jets will need him, then have them find a replacement?  If he gambles and gets replaced, he won't be released until after June 1, making it harder to find a team to play for at a fraction of what he could have made had he of renegotiated in the first place.

1. dead money:  the money is dead whether we keep him or cut him.  Talking about dead the money just muddies the waters.  The - 5 m in cap space is already a fact of life for 2016.  (thank you Tanny).

2. restructure: currently for 2017 Brick's dead money is 1.2 m.  Again, no matter what, our cap is reduced by 1.2 m next year.  I do not want to increase that number by one red cent.  Not for a player on the decline.  The 1 or 2 m is cap relieve we might get in 2016 by a restructure just isn't worth further damage to 2017.  

The only issue with Brick is the 9 m we may or may not pay him this year.  I think paying him and hoping for at least one more adequate performance in 2016 is ultimately they way we'll go.  Maybe we'll get lucky and Mac will come up with an adequate replacement for < 9 m.  But please, Mac, no restructure.           

[bitonti]

Giacomini has nearly nothing in common with Smith/Vollmer/Schwartz - he's an average starting RT heading into his age 30 season while those guys are all among the best RTs in the league heading into their late 20s.  

while they are better than Breno they are not good enough to play LT. If they could, they would already.

Right now at the senior bowl they are taking college left tackle and moving them to guard. they are taking college left tackles and moving them to right. They characterize these players early. These characterizations stick if a guy isn't fast enough to do it at 22 he won't be fast enough at 29. These players only get slower as the years go by. 

I understand why people aren't happy with Brick's number but I am not a buyer on signing a RT and hoping he can switch. 

[Beerfish]

And this seems to be a real shi**y draft for LT's this year as well.

[chirorob]

And this seems to be a real shi**y draft for LT's this year as well.

I haven't read of any good LT prospects that will be around when we draft.

[CanadaSteve]

 

1. dead money:  the money is dead whether we keep him or cut him.  Talking about dead the money just muddies the waters.  The - 5 m in cap space is already a fact of life for 2016.  (thank you Tanny).

2. restructure: currently for 2017 Brick's dead money is 1.2 m.  Again, no matter what, our cap is reduced by 1.2 m next year.  I do not want to increase that number by one red cent.  Not for a player on the decline.  The 1 or 2 m is cap relieve we might get in 2016 by a restructure just isn't worth further damage to 2017.  

The only issue with Brick is the 9 m we may or may not pay him this year.  I think paying him and hoping for at least one more adequate performance in 2016 is ultimately they way we'll go.  Maybe we'll get lucky and Mac will come up with an adequate replacement for < 9 m.  But please, Mac, no restructure.           

His dead money lowers if you cut him after June 1.  Sure the money is dead whether you keep or cut him, but if you cut him, you have $5 million you cannot spend AND have to still replace him and the price he probably is making now.  Matt has pointed this out; LT do not come cheap.

[CanadaSteve]

Again, as far as the restructure, if he takes a big pay cut but both years are fully guaranteed, it still might be worth it.  It all depends on the numbers. 

[Beerfish]

Again, as far as the restructure, if he takes a big pay cut but both years are fully guaranteed, it still might be worth it.  It all depends on the numbers. 

Yup, we all know that his play is declining and he is due to make too much so you follow the usual path that teams follow when they have a guy they still want that makes to much.  You look at a restructure that will not be a big problem as far as deferring into the future.  If that does not work you tell him you are going to cut him unless he takes a pay cut.

[faba]

Not looking to replace two tackles at once so restructure Brick and look for a replacement for Bruno

[flgreen]

Yup, we all know that his play is declining and he is due to make too much so you follow the usual path that teams follow when they have a guy they still want that makes to much.  You look at a restructure that will not be a big problem as far as deferring into the future.  If that does not work you tell him you are going to cut him unless he takes a pay cut.

That is the logical way to go here.

 The problem is they have already pushed money into the future on his contract.  The future is here.  Pushing any more down the road with his declining play would be stupid IMO.  Most players won't restructure unless there is some new money in it for them.

 

If they flat cut him, I really feel bad for Fitz.  There just doesn't seem to be anyone near ready to replace him, or play anywhere near his level from last year, even though it was a down year for Brick.

Last off season was a sleigh ride for Macc.  This year he earns his money.

I don't know the solution.  I'm hoping Brick, being a local kid, will decide to just finish out his career close to home, and take a pay cut. 

[bitonti]

 I'm hoping Brick, being a local kid, will decide to just finish out his career close to home, and take a pay cut. 

Brick would have many suitors on the open market. He has no incentive to take a pay cut. they can either restructure him with upfront bonus money, they can let his contract play out, or they can cut him. The pay cut route is optimistic. 

[Beerfish]

As far as threatening to cut goes, the player and agent initially get all pissey about it.  Then the agent looks at it and may see that what D'Brick gets on the open market may not be a whole lot more than what the Jets are proposing for a pay cut, no one is going to give him what we owe him now.  Then comes the relocation factor, does he have kids in school?  Does his wife like it here?  Brick would instantly become the #1 LT on the market but as I said is he going to get more than we are prepared to live with?  Sometimes this stuff comes down to pride.

 

(And I am not a fan of any restructure which defers liability more, if there is a way as one poster stated to convert remaining liabilities into a lower gaunatr5eed pay then perhaps.)