Was Geno the Jets Plan All Along?

[slats]

33 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Normally I would not waste my time talking to such a Smith partisan as you, and the part of your post I did not quote is too much based on Smith Homerism and rank speculation to bother with.

But on this the answer could be simple - the Jets simply are maybe just being cheap and inflexible in their offer to Fitzpatrick.

And of course they may simply be hoping RF will cave before it is too late.

In any event I fail to see how Smith Fans can believe the offer to RF is fair, and acknowledge it is still on the table, and deduce from that mix of opinion and fact that they really want Smith to be the starter.

The bold is nothing short of hilarious. The Jets are offering much more than any other team, and that's assuming anyone else has offered him anything. Their inflexibility on the length of the deal stems from the fact that Fitzpatrick's real value to them is as an example/mentor to Hackenberg and Petty, not his actual, limited, skills on the football field. 

As for your other point, that being that he's taking a pay cut in the final two years of the deal, you don't know that. You don't know how the contract is structured. In all likelihood, due to cap restraints, it probably has a large signing bonus and a lower first year salary. Probably something along the lines of 6/6/6 with a $6M signing bonus, or maybe even a lower first year salary and larger bonus. And yes, if my employer wanted to offer me a bonus equivalent to one generous year's salary to sign on for three, I'd happily do it. Three years, $24M (before incentives that can allegedly bring it up fo $36M) is an extremely generous offer. 

Geno has always been the plan; Plan B. Plan A is for Fitz to sign the deal on the table and help school the youngsters, but they're not nearly as afraid to go to Plan B as some fans are should Fitz' ego keep him from signing. 

[YankeeJet22]

15 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

You may not know what Geno is capable of, but I do.  It's not much

Can you share with us tonight's lottery numbers too?

 

[AFJF]

10 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Ryan Fitzpatricks career sucked before he came to the Jets he walked into a perfect situation here in 2015 surrounded by a good team with good coaches on a team with a very weak schedule he did what many others would have done with the exception of making the playoffs. Lets not make plans to attend his induction ceremony in Canton,Ohio.

Somebody FINALLY said it!!!

[LIJetsFan]

31 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Why don't you tell me where you disagree with me, if you do, before I answer.

You said: "I think the discussion here suffers when posters post opinions as if they are facts."    

This is the internet and much/most/almost all of what is posted here is opinion.  You seem to understand this but you don't seem to be giving others credit for understanding this.

Even if someone provides a link to a source, the chances are that that source is stating opinion.  Even stats and direct audio quotes are open to interpretation.  Anyone who thinks that fact abound is naive.           

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

The element of continuity that is here that has not been changed moving from Tanny to Idzik to Macc is Woody.  So there's that.  How much is Woody behind the team's current approach to unresolved problems?  No one here knows, but Woody has a history of getting involved in things and screwing them up. 

I disagree that a contract that requires a player to accept a huge reduction in salary for two years after performing at what one hopes will be a high level in year one IS NOT a fair salary offer.  Anyone here who would do that kind of deal with their employer would be an idiot.

You're assume 24 million isn't life changing money?  And your biggest mistake is that Fitz has any options.  I just don't get what is idiotic about accepting a contract that in year 1 pays you 4xs what you made the year before and in years 2 & 3 pays you twice what you made a year ago to be the backup QB.  No one has offered better, the market has spoken.  The kick would be he walks and never sees anything close to 24 mil again.  

That would be definition of an idiot

[Paradis]

21 hours ago, bitonti said:

drafting Petty and Hack and signing Fitz before last season all point to a front office that has zero faith in Geno Smith. So far, they've basically done everything they can to avoid this outcome. 

 

You could just easily spin that yarn in a different direction.

People forget (willingly) a year ago, the Jets were 100% behind Geno as the starter with Fitz as nothing more than Gailey's mentor/insurance. Maybe Geno's in a different place than he was 12 or 24 months ago, maybe not... but why people like you work so hard to paint a bleak outlook is pathetic. 

Is this a forum for fandom, or a referendum for diatribes and personal agendas? 

[Keyshawn 19]

 The Jets staff is treading into dangerous waters. Geno couldn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did in 3 years. GM Mac could kill all the good vibrations he got after last year. Drafting Williams, washing the Idzik off this team and getting Executive of the Year. All that could be gone quickly messing around with Geno. Geno will never be any good under any system. Tanking the season just to cut some fund at the most critical position will piss off a bunch of fans. The Jets were close last year and going backward is not an option. 

[Big Blocker]

1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

Ryan Fitzpatricks career sucked before he came to the Jets he walked into a perfect situation here in 2015 surrounded by a good team with good coaches on a team with a very weak schedule he did what many others would have done with the exception of making the playoffs. Lets not make plans to attend his induction ceremony in Canton,Ohio.

He had a good year in Houston in 14.

 

Next!

[PepPep]

5 minutes ago, Keyshawn 19 said:

 The Jets staff is treading into dangerous waters. Geno couldn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did in 3 years. GM Mac could kill all the good vibrations he got after last year. Drafting Williams, washing the Idzik off this team and getting Executive of the Year. All that could be gone quickly messing around with Geno. Geno will never be any good under any system. Tanking the season just to cut some fund at the most critical position will piss off a bunch of fans. The Jets were close last year and going backward is not an option. 

You are wrong about Geno. 

[Big Blocker]

2 hours ago, slats said:

The bold is nothing short of hilarious. The Jets are offering much more than any other team, and that's assuming anyone else has offered him anything. Their inflexibility on the length of the deal stems from the fact that Fitzpatrick's real value to them is as an example/mentor to Hackenberg and Petty, not his actual, limited, skills on the football field. 

As for your other point, that being that he's taking a pay cut in the final two years of the deal, you don't know that. You don't know how the contract is structured. In all likelihood, due to cap restraints, it probably has a large signing bonus and a lower first year salary. Probably something along the lines of 6/6/6 with a $6M signing bonus, or maybe even a lower first year salary and larger bonus. And yes, if my employer wanted to offer me a bonus equivalent to one generous year's salary to sign on for three, I'd happily do it. Three years, $24M (before incentives that can allegedly bring it up fo $36M) is an extremely generous offer. 

Geno has always been the plan; Plan B. Plan A is for Fitz to sign the deal on the table and help school the youngsters, but they're not nearly as afraid to go to Plan B as some fans are should Fitz' ego keep him from signing. 

Since your post is nothing but speculation, and I said it MAY be explained due to their cheapness, what is so F'n funny about what I said?

I sense you are just another FO homer who assumes the FO is always right in this kind of situation.

[Big Blocker]

1 hour ago, LIJetsFan said:

You said: "I think the discussion here suffers when posters post opinions as if they are facts."    

This is the internet and much/most/almost all of what is posted here is opinion.  You seem to understand this but you don't seem to be giving others credit for understanding this.

Even if someone provides a link to a source, the chances are that that source is stating opinion.  Even stats and direct audio quotes are open to interpretation.  Anyone who thinks that fact abound is naive.           

Where did I say I think facts abound or anything like that?  My issue was solely with someone stating an opinion as if it were fact.  Why does that bother you?

[Big Blocker]

36 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You're assume 24 million isn't life changing money?  And your biggest mistake is that Fitz has any options.  I just don't get what is idiotic about accepting a contract that in year 1 pays you 4xs what you made the year before and in years 2 & 3 pays you twice what you made a year ago to be the backup QB.  No one has offered better, the market has spoken.  The kick would be he walks and never sees anything close to 24 mil again.  

That would be definition of an idiot

One option is he takes the position he has, the FO realizes their alternative is to start the walking disaster that is Geno Smith, and then they offer a more flexible contract. 

If one assumes the year one rate is a fair one, then it makes no sense for Fitzpatrick to agree to a built in cut of that magnitude for years two and three, REGARDLESS of how well he does in year one, and whether he remains the starter in years two and three.

Unlike too many here I am not a Jet FO homer.  They can make a more flexible offer.  And if they don't Smith may end up the starter.  That would be a tragedy.

[sourceworx]

I don't think Geno was the plan all along.  There's too much evidence to the contrary.

That said, I think this contract standoff has worked in their favor if they decide to let Fitz walk and go with Geno as the starter. I think most fans (myself included) feel that Fitz's contract demands are unrealistic considering his age and career history. I like Fitz a lot. But he isn't worth what he and his agent think he's worth. And the market has pretty much backed that up. 

If we have to go with Geno, so be it. We just have to hope that the camp reports from last year and this year (so far) are true, and the guy has greatly improved.

[Keyshawn 19]

22 hours ago, drdetroit said:

The Coaching staff knows the difference between Geno and Fitz is notwhere near as big as most fans and the media swear it is.

I don't think I'm wrong about Geno. He can only beat Miami in Miami. Sorry but we need more production that that. The guy looks clumsy in mechanics and the only person I've seen worst than him is our 2016 2nd round QB pick. If Bowles and Mac truly want to tank the season I would go with Petty before Geno. Let's see what we got with him as we have already seen what we have with Geno. People expecting Geno to turn into an all star are just not realistic. This is the Jets we don't get lucky with backup QB becoming stars. Well not since Matt Robinson in the late 70's.

[Jet Nut]

Just now, Big Blocker said:

One option is he takes the position he has, the FO realizes their alternative is to start the walking disaster that is Geno Smith, and then they offer a more flexible contract. 

If one assumes the year one rate is a fair one, then it makes no sense for Fitzpatrick to agree to a built in cut of that magnitude for years two and three, REGARDLESS of how well he does in year one, and whether he remains the starter in years two and three.

Unlike too many here I am not a Jet FO homer.  They can make a more flexible offer.  And if they don't Smith may end up the starter.  That would be a tragedy.

And still I don't agree.  The FO thinks this is what he's worth.  For the 100tu time, he has every right to leave for one of the many better offers out there.  Problem is no one thinks he's worth what the Jets are offering, good luck looking for more. Just find It curious in what world people live in where what the employee wants is what he should earn.  There has to be a market for a player and there is none.  The long term success is to keep contracts and the cap under control.  No to pay players whatever they want.  They obviously don't think they'll get their money's worth by paying Fitz more than they're offering, that he's not worth more than 12 mil over Geno.  Not that they think he's a walking disaster.  He was set to be the starter last year, getting injured didn't change what they initially thought about him.  

Funny that you call out people for being FO homers for agreeing with a single issue.  Just because you're anti Geno.  Now that's funny

[Villain The Foe]

19 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

I don't think Geno was the plan all along.  There's too much evidence to the contrary.

That said, I think this contract standoff has worked in their favor if they decide to let Fitz walk and go with Geno as the starter. I think most fans (myself included) feel that Fitz's contract demands are unrealistic considering his age and career history. I like Fitz a lot. But he isn't worth what he and his agent think he's worth. And the market has pretty much backed that up. 

If we have to go with Geno, so be it. We just have to hope that the camp reports from last year and this year (so far) are true, and the guy has greatly improved.

I wouldnt see any reason to think that they're not true. How many Jets fans sit here hanging on report that "Fitzpatrick will be the starter if resigned"? No one is questioning that given that this is what was said right? 

 

So, if the reports were that Geno had a good camp last year and a good mini camp this year and is "light years" ahead of where he was last year (having a good camp last year) then what causes us not to believe it? 

Im not saying that anyone should or shouldnt, im just saying that if people are going to believe one report (If Fitz is resigned he'll be the starter) then we can believe reports when talking about the current QB on the team. 

I think there's too much evidence to support that given that the Jets havent felt the need to cave into Fitz demands....probably because Geno has shown exactly what they've willingly reported. 

[kelticwizard]

41 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

He had a good year in Houston in 14.

Next!

Yeah, 207 yards a game for 12 games, with Andre Johnson.  A real career year.

 

PS:  Benched for a couple of games for Ryan Mallett.  Just tore the league up, he did.

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, Keyshawn 19 said:

 The Jets staff is treading into dangerous waters. Geno couldn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did in 3 years. GM Mac could kill all the good vibrations he got after last year. Drafting Williams, washing the Idzik off this team and getting Executive of the Year. All that could be gone quickly messing around with Geno. Geno will never be any good under any system. Tanking the season just to cut some fund at the most critical position will piss off a bunch of fans. The Jets were close last year and going backward is not an option. 

Well, Geno will have the same situation with the same targets as Fitz had. So we'll see how many he can throw this year. No one cares about how many TD's Geno threw in his first two seasons under a sh*tty regime and poor targets as a rookie and 2nd year player. 

If you compare Geno's first 30 games to Fitz first 30 games the stats are mightily similar. The difference is that one has 2 seasons of play time vs another with 10. 

 

Inaccurately comparing the two will only fool a person who cant dissect the deceit within the comparison or are either just Fitz supporters or Geno haters. Its kinda like when I see people say "Fitz ran this offense much better than Geno did" yet those same people can never show me a season in which Geno ran this offense with these targets....because it never happened. 

 

Welcome to Jetnation! 

[drdetroit]

21 minutes ago, Keyshawn 19 said:

I don't think I'm wrong about Geno. He can only beat Miami in Miami. Sorry but we need more production that that. The guy looks clumsy in mechanics and the only person I've seen worst than him is our 2016 2nd round QB pick. If Bowles and Mac truly want to tank the season I would go with Petty before Geno. Let's see what we got with him as we have already seen what we have with Geno. People expecting Geno to turn into an all star are just not realistic. This is the Jets we don't get lucky with backup QB becoming stars. Well not since Matt Robinson in the late 70's.

No one expects Geno to be a star I just don't think the difference between he and Fitz is as egregious as you make it out to be

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

No one expects Geno to be a star I just don't think the difference between he and Fitz is as egregious as you make it out to be

As if you need to be a HOF, all star type to match Fitz

[Jet Nut]

26 minutes ago, Keyshawn 19 said:

I don't think I'm wrong about Geno. He can only beat Miami in Miami. Sorry but we need more production that that. The guy looks clumsy in mechanics and the only person I've seen worst than him is our 2016 2nd round QB pick. If Bowles and Mac truly want to tank the season I would go with Petty before Geno. Let's see what we got with him as we have already seen what we have with Geno. People expecting Geno to turn into an all star are just not realistic. This is the Jets we don't get lucky with backup QB becoming stars. Well not since Matt Robinson in the late 70's.

Why not compare Geno to Fitz in his 1st & 2nd seasons, not his 1st 2 seasons to a guy in his 11th season? 

Matt Robinson excited the fans mostly for not being Richard Todd.  He was traded in a lopsided trade and went on to a totally shltty career in Denver.

[kelticwizard]

Was Geno the plan all along?

 

I think Geno was Plan B, in case Plan A got stupid in his contract demands.  Fitzpatrick got stupid.

[drdetroit]

Just now, kelticwizard said:

Was Geno the plan all along?

 

I think Geno was a Plan B, in case Plan A got stupid.  Fitzpatrick got stupid.

Bradford, Osweuler and RG3 getting way too much money made him stupid.

[LIJetsFan]

45 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Where did I say I think facts abound or anything like that?  My issue was solely with someone stating an opinion as if it were fact.  Why does that bother you?

Ok so let's drop it then. All I was trying to say was that you weren't giving others credit to distinguish fact from opinion.

[ylekram]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Why not compare Geno to Fitz in his 1st & 2nd seasons, not his 1st 2 seasons to a guy in his 11th season? 

Matt Robinson excited the fans mostly for not being Richard Todd.  He was traded in a lopsided trade and went on to a totally shltty career in Denver.

geeze, do you really need an answer to this one? I don't think anyone is stating that geno absolutely cannot become a better qb than fitz. but that's not what mac is contemplating. macs choice is 4th year geno vs 11 year fitz not 4th year geno vs 4th year fitz. the lengths that some will go to

[slats]

36 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

One option is he takes the position he has, the FO realizes their alternative is to start the walking disaster that is Geno Smith, and then they offer a more flexible contract. 

If one assumes the year one rate is a fair one, then it makes no sense for Fitzpatrick to agree to a built in cut of that magnitude for years two and three, REGARDLESS of how well he does in year one, and whether he remains the starter in years two and three.

Unlike too many here I am not a Jet FO homer.  They can make a more flexible offer.  And if they don't Smith may end up the starter.  That would be a tragedy.

The reason, I imagine, that they are able to remain inflexible in their contract offer is twofold. First, they don't view Geno the same way that you do, and are not nearly as frightened by the prospect of him starting for one season. Second, Fitz' only other options are hypothetical. He has no other offers. His contingency plan is some imaginary playoff caliber team who loses their starter to injury and believes that Fitzpatrick is a better option than their current #2 QB. Which is basically the equivalent of having winning the lottery as the primary component of your retirement plan. 

Not being a FO homer either, I would have to say that they're being overly generous by not reducing their offer given the market for Fitzpatrick. 

[Big Blocker]

43 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

I don't think Geno was the plan all along.  There's too much evidence to the contrary.

That said, I think this contract standoff has worked in their favor if they decide to let Fitz walk and go with Geno as the starter. I think most fans (myself included) feel that Fitz's contract demands are unrealistic considering his age and career history. I like Fitz a lot. But he isn't worth what he and his agent think he's worth. And the market has pretty much backed that up. 

If we have to go with Geno, so be it. We just have to hope that the camp reports from last year and this year (so far) are true, and the guy has greatly improved.

What someone asks for and what someone else offers as a negotiating position are not the same thing as what someone thinks he's worth.  It's not even what he might accept. 

All we know now is that the Jets have offered Fitzpatrick a deal that apparently involves a significant cut in years two and three, and that RF has not accepted that offer.

And as far as what most fans think, what most fans WILL think may change if Smith starts and the Jets begin losing games.

[Rangers9]

I have to say during this entire debate I've learned something. I don't think there are that many true Geno fans but I'm shocked that he has fans who are so loyal. Some of them I think care more about him getting another chance to start than the team winning. There is no way a team is afraid to cut or release a player and worry that he can end up being good (if they gave him a good chance). You don't make a choice on who is your starting Qb based on that.  This happens to every team and you have to make decisions. Geno's fans will jump on any stat to "prove" he didn't get a fair shake and attempt to discredit the other Qb (Fitz). They will search out any bad stat on Fitz to make their case.  And there are in reality no good stats on Geno. Then there are the Fitz haters. I was shocked by them too because I assumed Jets fans liked what they saw in 2015 (a plus six) and thought the Qb did a very good job.  But most of them blame him alone for week 17. They were expecting to make the playoffs and we lost a game. Even though we'd won five in a row. They are unmerciful in their hatred and criticism.They don't want him back and if he does return they want him to suffer. As in get the worst contract possible. They are openly rooting for him to make less money and this is their idea of payback. And then there are the trolls who really don't give an s one way or the other. They just say outrageous things to keep the fire stoked. And suckers like me take the bait. And then there is the silent majority who doesn't pay any attention to this nonsense. I think that most of them like what they saw last season and hope the team starts the BAP. Salary is between the player and the FO but it should be able to be worked out with compromise on both sides. 

[Big Blocker]

28 minutes ago, kelticwizard said:

Yeah, 207 yards a game for 12 games, with Andre Johnson.  A real career year.

 

PS:  Benched for a couple of games for Ryan Mallett.  Just tore the league up, he did.

You may think you are good at cherry picking, but you're not really.  By any objective measure Fitz performed well in 14.  And the background to the Ryan Mallett story helps explain that part. RF had a qb rating over 95 that year.  Geno Smith can only imagine a season rating near that.

[Big Blocker]

14 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Ok so let's drop it then. All I was trying to say was that you weren't giving others credit to distinguish fact from opinion.

That is not what I was doing.  But consider it dropped.

[JiFtheOracle]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I have to say  during this entire debate I've learned something. I don't think there are that many true Geno fans but I'm shocked that he has fans who are so loyal. Some of them I think care more about him getting another chance to start than the team winning. There is no way a team is afraid to cut or release a player and worry that he can end up being good (if they gave him a good chance). You don't make a choice on who is your starting Qb based on that.  This happens to every team and you have to make decisions. Geno's fans will jump on any stat to "prove" he didn't get a fair shake and attempt to discredit the other Qb (Fitz). They will search out any bad stat on Fitz to make their case.  And there are in reality no good stats on Geno. Then there are the Fitz haters. I was shocked by them too because I assumed Jets fans liked what they saw in 2015 (a plus six) and thought the Qb did a very good job.  But most of them blame him alone for week 17. They were expecting to make the playoffs and we lost a game. Even though we'd won five in a row. They are unmerciful in their hatred and criticism.They don't want him back and if he does return they want him to suffer. As in get the worst contract possible. They are openly rooting for him to make less money and this is their idea of payback. And then there are the trolls who really don't give an s one way or the other. They just say outrageous things to keep the fire stoked. And suckers like me take the bait. And then there is the silent majority who doesn't pay any attention to this nonsense. I think that most of them like what they saw last season and hope the team starts the BAP. Salary is between the player and the FO but it should be able to be worked on with compromise on both sides. 

My biggest takeaway from all this debating is that people have different opinions on things.  

Pretty mind blowing when you think about it. 

[Mike135]

1 hour ago, Keyshawn 19 said:

GM Mac could kill all the good vibrations he got after last year. 

Ha, don't think I've heard that phrase used since the mid 90s.

Now I can't help but imagine Macc filling in for Marky Mark in this classic video...

 

[Jet Nut]

21 minutes ago, ylekram said:

geeze, do you really need an answer to this one? I don't think anyone is stating that geno absolutely cannot become a better qb than fitz. but that's not what mac is contemplating. macs choice is 4th year geno vs 11 year fitz not 4th year geno vs 4th year fitz. the lengths that some will go to

If you believe people think Geno can develop you're not paying attention to what is weitten here. 

And if he can improve, how do you know he hasn't progressed to where we don't feel a drop off from Fitz?  No one knows but there's sure a a lot of people saying that's nonsense

[ylekram]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

If you believe people think Geno can develop you're not paying attention to what is weitten here. 

And if he can improve, how do you know he hasn't progressed to where we don't feel a drop off from Fitz?  No one knows but there's sure a a lot of people saying that's nonsense

there is also a bunch of people stating that geno's improvement is a foregone conclusion. there are extremes on both sides. has nothing to do with comparing 4th year geno and 4th year fitz

[NYs Stepchild]

3 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

Let's be honest about Macc.  When Woody canned Idzik last year, I was quite happy with that.  I thought he was a disaster pretty much from day one.  So cutting him after "only" two years was seen by me as cutting the team's losses, which would have almost certainly continued if Idzik had been retained.

So they do their search, and at the least it looked like they went about it in a reasonable and productive way.  They ended up hiring a guy with no previous experience as a GM, but given the alternatives, he looked like the best choice.  And he said the right things and behaved in a way that inspired confidence.  Then he went about the off season moves in a way that showed a real change of direction, and a change of direction was needed after Idzik.  The Marshall move in particular was brilliant, but the Carpenter move was nearly as good, too. 

But some others, maybe not so brilliant, and however one feels about last off season, the need to be honest about Macc must focus on the fact he has a very limited track record at this point.  Whatever good he's done to date can be overwhelmed in an overall assessment of him if some of the current unresolved issues go badly.

That's unfortunate, since the team needed a strong and capable GM. I am not sure we have that right now.

I like Mac. Think he's great for the team and will only get better. I just don't think he can manipulate the human condition like Moriarty. There are two things I really like about Mac. 

He's a scout, and a pretty damn good one from what I've seen.

He knows what he doesn't know. He seems to be able to weed through advice and do a good job of deciding which advice to follow, then stick with it for the proper amount of time. He is certainly learning as he goes, but he's not floundering in the meantime. The fact that he hasn't really been groomed in the business end of things allows him to see a different perspective than our previous business majors and he is able to school some GMs. Marshall, Carpenter, and now hopefully Clady.