Looking at Macc's 2 drafts.

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Sorry, I disagree.  He wasn't the Revis of old but he wasn't bad.  Huge difference.

Yep

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2016/best-cornerback-stats-2015

 

[Mecca]

32 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, leaving an offer out there - one that was a ridiculous offer in the first place - for 5 months made him look weak. And not signing him early was the right move because it led to a 1 yr deal? What kind of logic is that -- the 1 yr deal is what Fitz wanted, not Maccagnan. In either case it was an idiotic move to base his offseason on Fitzpatrick returning at any price (including the foolish amounts he offered)..

But keep using exaggerations that would be used to rationalize even the worst GM in NFL history, like nobody gets them all right. 

You are getting impressed by his bad contracts because, for some reason, you don't realize the contract length/guarantee terms of 2 years is standard for most players. Therefore one looks back to the players and deals themselves, which are decidedly poor on balance. 

That you don't know of anyone who'd do a better job in his stead is irrelevant, since you'd never heard of Mike Maccagnan either until he Jets hired him. Same for virtually any GM in the league; past, present, or future. 

To lose an elite, young player at his position like Snacks, instead of locking him up in 2015 when he had endless cap room, is inexcusable. It speaks to his being a man that doesn't know what he has. He felt the Jets were better off with Antonio Cromartie for a year at double his deserved rate guaranteed, among other expensive players clearly past their prime. The really stupid thing about it is it is doubtful Snacks would have been more than $2-3m more than McLendon. 

 

We chose Forte+Harrison+McClendon over Snacks. That was such an idiotic decision considering that Harrison didn't even stay on the team for half the year and Forte isn't even the best RB on the team. 

I was begging us to take the 2nd that teams were offering for Wilkerson and keep Snacks. But Mac screwed up. He's without a doubt on the hot seat this off-season. 

[Mecca]

What I don't understand is the fact that there are 30 people that work in a FO that get paid to study & analyze these moves 9 hours a day, and still make such awful decisions that leave fans that spend 20 minutes a day talking about it perplexed. It's crazy how right some of us are too. 

The Milliner pick still blows my mind man. He has a history of soft tissue injuries. Those are repeatable and shows your body's weaknesses. Anyone who plays fantasy football or took basic anatomy knows this. 

Amaro was a receiving tight end who was drafted because of his size.. except he didn't use his size at all... and couldn't block. He was simply a product of TT system. 

F*ck you idzik

[DMan77]

23 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, leaving an offer out there - one that was a ridiculous offer in the first place - for 5 months made him look weak. And not signing him early was the right move because it led to a 1 yr deal? What kind of logic is that -- the 1 yr deal is what Fitz wanted, not Maccagnan. In either case it was an idiotic move to base his offseason on Fitzpatrick returning at any price (including the foolish amounts he offered)..

But keep using exaggerations that would be used to rationalize even the worst GM in NFL history, like nobody gets them all right. 

You are getting impressed by his bad contracts because, for some reason, you don't realize the contract length/guarantee terms of 2 years is standard for most players. Therefore one looks back to the players and deals themselves, which are decidedly poor on balance. 

That you don't know of anyone who'd do a better job in his stead is irrelevant, since you'd never heard of Mike Maccagnan either until he Jets hired him. Same for virtually any GM in the league; past, present, or future. 

To lose an elite, young player at his position like Snacks, instead of locking him up in 2015 when he had endless cap room, is inexcusable. It speaks to his being a man that doesn't know what he has. He felt the Jets were better off with Antonio Cromartie for a year at double his deserved rate guaranteed, among other expensive players clearly past their prime. The really stupid thing about it is it is doubtful Snacks would have been more than $2-3m more than McLendon. 

 

Well I'm certainly not looking to get into a heated discussion about this since a lot of it is opinion based. Neither of us are going to change our minds

With Fitz, he turned down a three year, 24 million dollar deal. The Jets reportedly offered a few other deals too, which were somewhat team friendly but also in pretty solid dollar amounts (http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/07/27/ryan-fitzpatrick-signs-new-york-jets-contract-free-agency). Are we saying he turned that down because he wanted a 1 year deal and not because he wanted more moola or guaranteed years?

 I guess that's possible but in my mind he passed the Jet's deals up because he thought he was worth way more and he wanted to capitalize on his career year, and MM waited him out... Was it a brilliant play? No, not at alll, but I haven't been arguing for MM as being a genius. I think he's been average. I actually agree with you that we would have been better off not signing him. I was ready to roll with Geno or someone else, but for what they ended up giving him, it was ok. Again not great. Just Ok. 

And it's not an exaggeration to say that GMs don't get them all right... . It's not an exaggeration to think that we should look at what a great GM is before we decide what the baseline is for success in the league... You can disagree with that but it's not an out of left field thought... I honestly don't know what that is, but there has to be some metric for measuring a GM. If you say we can't do that, and every GM must be looked at within the vacuum of their own team or just by the 'eyeball' test, then fine, that's your rightful opinion, but I disagree. I think if we're going to judge or grade someone you need a historical standard within that field and while MM has his some mistakes, like Snacks, I see enough average work that I can't call for his head. As I've said, he's a 'C' GM in my mind. That's good enough to get him another year for me.

As far as me being impressed by some of his signings and not realizing that most deals across the NFL are 2 year standard deals... I think that kind of adds a tick to my "he's average" argument. He's doing what other GMs do for the most part... He's signing competently and slinging out deals that match the market. That seems like a thumbs up to me. 

I don't know why that's a knock against him and not something to be OK with... I'm definitely not a contract expert and I won't pretend to be one, but I am happy with the state of most of these contracts. I see teams like the 49ers (although that GM is gone) giving their TE 5 years and 35 million or earlier when the Rams gave Tavon Austin 4 years 40 million, and I cringe for those fans. 

The big risky contract that MM has hanging over his head is the Mo one but that looked like a smart move at the time. At the time of the deal, Mo looked like a better option that the Jags LB Malik Jackson, and MM was able to pay Mo 5 million LESS then him. Obviously this deal doesn't look super as we sit here today, but at the time I think it was seen as a pretty solid deal. Or how about Ryan Cladly deal for 2 years/16mill... That was also applauded from what I remember. The dude had an injury history but MM and his team worked it to basically make it a 1 year contract with an out this season.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that he's the greatest contract designer and negotiator of all time. I think he's done a decent job. Average.

As far as not knowing if someone would do a better job or not, nope, of course I don't so I have to base it on the bigger picture of the NFL and what I know about other teams and their deals and inner-workings... Do I know the complete transnational history and decisions made by every team? Of course not. I'm sure I don't even know 5% of them. What I think though is that nearly every GM out there is making good moves, bad ones, and average ones. I think they're all doing the best they can with the info they have and I think in the grand scheme of things MM is doing pretty average for a 2 1/2 year GM. 

Anyway, I'm sure we could go back and fourth for days but that really wouldn't get us anywhere. I'm happy to agree to disagree. You might be 100% correct in your evaluation of him. I can't prove otherwise at all. I just know what I see and after just a quick 2 years I'm ok with it. Would I have liked someone who did way better and hot a homerun on every move? Sure! But I can also picture having someone here that could do way, way worse. So I'll take average for now. 

Hope you're having a good day! 

[DMan77]

27 minutes ago, Mecca said:

We chose Forte+Harrison+McClendon over Snacks. That was such an idiotic decision considering that Harrison didn't even stay on the team for half the year and Forte isn't even the best RB on the team. 

I was begging us to take the 2nd that teams were offering for Wilkerson and keep Snacks. But Mac screwed up. He's without a doubt on the hot seat this off-season. 

I can't argue that it looks not so great now... But at the time it definitely felt like the Giants overpaid for Snacks... And they still may have depending on how Snacks holds up. 

It's a tick against him for now, but I think he made the move with pretty sound logic. He didn't want to pay him 46 million for 5 years when at the time he was basically being used as a 2 down LB... I don't think his decision to let him go came out of no where. They looked at what they had. It didn't work, but I don't disagree with the process they went through to come to the conclusion they did. I don't think he fit into his plan for this team. Not sure where that plan stands now, but I think it was too much money to allocate, and too many years for what he wants to do with this team. 

 

[#27TheDominator]

^Too polite.  What happened to this place?  Not directed at Kris Jenkins above, but FWIW, I hate seeing MM (cause I think of Marty Morhinweg) and TB is Tom Brady, not Todd Bowles.

[#27TheDominator]

I think the problems Sperm is talking about are what GMs are paid for, to see the problem and solve it before it is a problem.  I was calling to sign Fitzpatrick to a 2-3 year deal at $8M per during the season.  If they had worked out an extension for Snacks the offseason before he hit free agency they probably would have gotten a discount.  They certainly would not have been expected to pay what the Giants did.  Would those players have accepted those deals?  Who knows, but once Fitzpatrick didn't sign, you move on. 

As for the good GM, bad GM debate, I want to note that Vlad Ducasse started half the season for the Ravens this year.  That was not the horrible pick we deemed it, we just banked too much on it. Sometimes, that is more important.  

[DMan77]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think the problems Sperm is talking about are what GMs are paid for, to see the problem and solve it before it is a problem.  I was calling to sign Fitzpatrick to a 2-3 year deal at $8M per during the season.  If they had worked out an extension for Snacks the offseason before he hit free agency they probably would have gotten a discount.  They certainly would not have been expected to pay what the Giants did.  Would those players have accepted those deals?  Who knows, but once Fitzpatrick didn't sign, you move on. 

As for the good GM, bad GM debate, I want to note that Vlad Ducasse started half the season for the Ravens this year.  That was not the horrible pick we deemed it, we just banked too much on it. Sometimes, that is more important.  

Yes there are definitely knocks against him. And you guys are right, that is what GMs are paid for... I guess I'm just looking at ALL the GMs, maybe even outside the NFL and into other sports and I just see Mike Mac (hope that's better, hah) as coming to the same conclusions as a lot of other front offices do. Again I don't have an extensive memory of every deal and negoiation out there, but I don't see him signing the wrong guys or letting the wrong guys walk at a rate that's much higher than most of the league. I don't see the rest of the NFL rolling their eyes at the job MM has done. I think there was mostly a consenus early on that his deals were Ok... That he didn't jump the shark with his moves, again, for the most part.

For me this isn't even a good GM, bad GM debate... It's an average GM, bad GM debate... And I just fall on the average side of things. 

[UnitedWhofans]

12 hours ago, gEYno said:

On the one hand, you say sports writers know more than us, they are professionals at this, so Macc truly was the best GM in the league last year.  They know better.

On the other hand, Macc is a professional GM and former professional scout, so he is not expected to know better than us, and just because we, message board fans, thought something was a good idea at the time, the professional shouldn't have been expected to know better than the fans.

Also, the guy who called Jets fans - which encompasses all of us here - "scum of the NFL" does not get to lecture on nastiness.

Including myself. I am insulting myself too. I have gotten nasty and have been warned because of it. Nastiness can provoke nastiness

[UnitedWhofans]

12 hours ago, gEYno said:

On the one hand, you say sports writers know more than us, they are professionals at this, so Macc truly was the best GM in the league last year.  They know better.

On the other hand, Macc is a professional GM and former professional scout, so he is not expected to know better than us, and just because we, message board fans, thought something was a good idea at the time, the professional shouldn't have been expected to know better than the fans..

No that's not what I mean. What I mean is that the people who said "This was a bad idea" from the beginning are the only ones who should have the right to say "I told you so" at the end. That goes for everybody. Media and fans.

[Mecca]

17 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

I can't argue that it looks not so great now... But at the time it definitely felt like the Giants overpaid for Snacks... And they still may have depending on how Snacks holds up. 

It's a tick against him for now, but I think he made the move with pretty sound logic. He didn't want to pay him 46 million for 5 years when at the time he was basically being used as a 2 down LB... I don't think his decision to let him go came out of no where. They looked at what they had. It didn't work, but I don't disagree with the process they went through to come to the conclusion they did. I don't think he fit into his plan for this team. Not sure where that plan stands now, but I think it was too much money to allocate, and too many years for what he wants to do with this team. 

 

Snacks was instrumental in the locker room and stuffing the run. Without him, our defense and locker room suffered. 

 

Giants have a top 8 run D with journey man linebackers because of Snacks.

[UnitedWhofans]

44 minutes ago, Mecca said:

The Milliner pick still blows my mind man. He has a history of soft tissue injuries. Those are repeatable and shows your body's weaknesses. Anyone who plays fantasy football or took basic anatomy knows this. 

Amaro was a receiving tight end who was drafted because of his size.. except he didn't use his size at all... and couldn't block. He was simply a product of TT system. 

F*ck you idzik

Exactly my point. His injuries were predictable so Idzik should be penalized for it. Devin Smith's injuries were not predictable so Mac shouldn't be penalized for that

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Mecca said:

Snacks was instrumental in the locker room and stuffing the run. Without him, our defense and locker room suffered. 

 

Giants have a top 8 run D with journey man linebackers because of Snacks.

That I can't argue with. However, if we had to do it again, I still think he made the right move, in terms of value. Our run defense was pretty stout until McClendon got hurt. And of course Deion Simon has risen up into that spot for nothing. But the leadership element is missing,

I will also say that the secret of the Giants defense is their secondary. DRC is finally healthy (bullet dodged on that contract) and Jenkins had been great

[DMan77]

1 minute ago, Mecca said:

Snacks was instrumental in the locker room and stuffing the run. Without him, our defense and locker room suffered. 

 

Giants have a top 8 run D with journey man linebackers because of Snacks.

For sure.

I just think Mac had a plan that revolved around trying to compete for a couple years without locking up a lot of guys long term for expensive deals. I think he wanted to try and fill holes for a season or two as he rebuilt here, but also be in a position over those coupld of years to cut guys and keep things flexible... And I think 5 years for Snacks just didn't fit his plan.

Again, not a good call. I'm not really defending him per-se... just saying that I get where his logic was and maybe what he was looking for... Doesn't look good now, but I don't think it was an easy call for him. I don't think he completely dismissed Snacks. I think he just reluctantly didn't fit in. 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, DMan77 said:

For sure.

I just think Mac had a plan that revolved around trying to compete for a couple years without locking up a lot of guys long term for expensive deals. I think he wanted to try and fill holes for a season or two as he rebuilt here, but also be in a position over those coupld of years to cut guys and keep things flexible... And I think 5 years for Snacks just didn't fit his plan.

Again, not a good call. I'm not really defending him per-se... just saying that I get where his logic was and maybe what he was looking for... Doesn't look good now, but I don't think it was an easy call for him. I don't think he completely dismissed Snacks. I think he just reluctantly didn't fit in. 

I dont think, football wise, it was the correct move, but like you, I understand why he did it. He just saw the previous GM get blasted after 2 years. 

[Beerfish]

The jets done what they and other teams have done in the past, they actually believed when they went 10-6 that they were close to being really good and making a run, and that is how a guy like Lee got drafted.  Teams just are not honest enough with themselves as far as how close they are all too often.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Beerfish said:

The jets done what they and other teams have done in the past, they actually believed when they went 10-6 that they were close to being really good and making a run, and that is how a guy like Lee got drafted.  Teams just are not honest enough with themselves as far as how close they are all too often.

"You are what your record says you are". Phrase that is used a lot. I do agree with you

[varjet]

Macc was asked by his boss to work with the HC and rebuild the team while remaining competitive.  That is a very touch job for any GM, particularly one who was starting with a weak team.

That meant that some players could not be cut because of their cap hits (thanks Tanny), so they were retained past their primes so that cap room was available to sign new players.

I am not going to accuse Woody or anyone else of causing Macc's or anyone else's failures here.  The Jets are starting over today.  The Jets need a pretty complete rebuild.  In the Not For Long NFL, that is never as long as people want or think.  But if it were me, I would more this year on getting good coaches and building the team from the bottom up before buying a stopgap QB and expect to win with them.  If they fixed the line and secondary, maybe next year buy a veteran QB.

To swing to hard to win in 2017 will only cause long-term problems, just like 2015's efforts have effected today.

[CrazyCarl40]

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Sorry, I disagree.  He wasn't the Revis of old but he wasn't bad.  Huge difference.

The numbers disagree with you. Sorry. I trust stats and not your opinion. Huge difference. Not worth 18 million. 

[Augustiniak]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

The jets done what they and other teams have done in the past, they actually believed when they went 10-6 that they were close to being really good and making a run, and that is how a guy like Lee got drafted.  Teams just are not honest enough with themselves as far as how close they are all too often.

mccags thought he could skip a full-blown rebuild where they stink for years and groom a qb to take over for fitz when he left town.  

the bigger problem is that he's got two very different cultures in the lockerroom and now has to clear most of the vets out.

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

The numbers disagree with you. Sorry. I trust stats and not your opinion. Huge difference. Not worth 18 million. 

Sorry sports are more than numbers.  I know what the QRs were when throwing at him too.  The rest mean nothing to me.  You have your opinion, I have mine.  We needed a cb and went out and got the best one that was available, who fit their style.  You couldn't put anyone just off numbers into that spot

[Mecca]

I'll be the broken record

 

Idzik's two years of abysmal drafting handicapped this franchise for the next 5 years. He drafted so many players that aren't even in the NFL anymore

Milliner, McDougle, Saunders, Shaq Evans

these are 1-4 round picks guys.. Amaro round 2 barely in the NFL

 

 

[dbatesman]

8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Sorry sports are more than numbers.  

Link?

[kmnj]

34 minutes ago, Mecca said:

I'll be the broken record

 

Idzik's two years of abysmal drafting handicapped this franchise for the next 5 years. He drafted so many players that aren't even in the NFL anymore

Milliner, McDougle, Saunders, Shaq Evans

these are 1-4 round picks guys.. Amaro round 2 barely in the NFL

 

 

and mac is drafting just as bad-all of his picks he has one good player to show for it and ANYBODY would have made that pick-he is TERRIBLE

the last guy that knew what he was doing was parcells-he drafted and brought in some real quality players

 

 

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

No that's not what I mean. What I mean is that the people who said "This was a bad idea" from the beginning are the only ones who should have the right to say "I told you so" at the end. That goes for everybody. Media and fans.

I know what you mean, but what you mean has a huge logical flaw which you yourself have succumbed to.

We are fans, we are not experts.  We have opinions and are not held to the same standards as the man getting paid to lead the team.  The professional is supposed to make the best and most accurate decisions, as you've pointed out.  If Macc isn't expected to perform better than I am, why does he have the job and not me, and what qualifications does one need to be a GM?

Here's a real life example: I work in healthcare.  Patients often tell me what they think their treatment plan ought to be.  Often times, those patients are way off-base and said plan would have significant consequences.  However, in your model, I should have no liability whatsoever to the patient, if I make the same decision as a patient, even if it's wrong, because it's what the patient wanted.  They cannot be upset, despite the fact that I'm the one with the education, the fancy degree, and the experience to know better than what they may have read on the internet.  This would certainly make my life easier, as I wouldn't need to think, and just go along with what people say based on what they read on WebMD.  

[Jetster]

45 minutes ago, kmnj said:

and mac is drafting just as bad-all of his picks he has one good player to show for it and ANYBODY would have made that pick-he is TERRIBLE

the last guy that knew what he was doing was parcells-he drafted and brought in some real quality players

 

 

Parcells was a good drafter? I'd love to see that list while he was here.

[Mecca]

47 minutes ago, kmnj said:

and mac is drafting just as bad-all of his picks he has one good player to show for it and ANYBODY would have made that pick-he is TERRIBLE

the last guy that knew what he was doing was parcells-he drafted and brought in some real quality players

 

 

Mangini-Tanny duo were on fire a few years 

Mangold, Brick, Harris, Leon, Revis, Cotchery in like a 2-3 year son

[ZachEY]

14 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

My point is that the team Mac inherited was not only bad, but the good pieces were old. Mac was filling holes, but as the team aged (got 2 years older) more holes were created. There was only so much that Mac could do in 2 years. The trajectory of the team was a hard downward spiral. Maybe that would have gotten us to 0-16 this year and the #1 pick, but is that QB worth it? Either way, Turning the team around required changing the trajectory. Now instead of spiraling down we have leveled off (+ or - a few degrees). If you are heading downhill at a rapid pace, you will accelerate towards the bottom as you go, it takes tremendous energy to just slow down let alone turn around and head up hill. It's like an analogy

I mean, it almost as if the Jets players are the only ones who get older each and every year... THANKS, IDZIK.

[UntouchableCrew]

If it weren't for his two horrendous 2nd round picks I'd be fine defending him. But To get nothing at all out of Smith and Hackenberg (and I'm confident we'll never get anything out of either of them) is awful.

[UntouchableCrew]

28 minutes ago, Mecca said:

Mangini-Tanny duo were on fire a few years 

Mangold, Brick, Harris, Leon, Revis, Cotchery in like a 2-3 year son

Cotch was on the roster with Herm and Bradway. Mangini just gave him a chance to play.

[UnitedWhofans]

33 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I know what you mean, but what you mean has a huge logical flaw which you yourself have succumbed to.

We are fans, we are not experts.  We have opinions and are not held to the same standards as the man getting paid to lead the team.  The professional is supposed to make the best and most accurate decisions, as you've pointed out.  If Macc isn't expected to perform better than I am, why does he have the job and not me, and what qualifications does one need to be a GM?

Here's a real life example: I work in healthcare.  Patients often tell me what they think their treatment plan ought to be.  Often times, those patients are way off-base and said plan would have significant consequences.  However, in your model, I should have no liability whatsoever to the patient, if I make the same decision as a patient, even if it's wrong, because it's what the patient wanted.  They cannot be upset, despite the fact that I'm the one with the education, the fancy degree, and the experience to know better than what they may have read on the internet.  This would certainly make my life easier, as I wouldn't need to think, and just go along with what people say based on what they read on WebMD.  

The difference in your example, which is a fair one, is that we are not directly recommending decisions to Maccagnan first, because we have no contact with him. Your example is a direct service 

This is simple a matter of he makes a decision, we judge the decision. We have no influence (hopefully) in the decision. Let's take Joe Beningo for example. He supported resigning Wilkerson. If he were to come back and say "Macc shouldn't have done that/he's done a bad job, at the very least, he has to acknowledge his error and say "I was wrong." And I don't think we get enough of that on here. From me, included.

[ZachEY]

20 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The difference in your example, which is a fair one, is that we are not directly recommending decisions to Maccagnan first, because we have no contact with him. Your example is a direct service 

This is simple a matter of he makes a decision, we judge the decision. We have no influence (hopefully) in the decision. Let's take Joe Beningo for example. He supported resigning Wilkerson. If he were to come back and say "Macc shouldn't have done that/he's done a bad job, at the very least, he has to acknowledge his error and say "I was wrong." And I don't think we get enough of that on here. From me, included.

Saying you can't criticize and saying there should be some accountability on a message board for one's opinions is a very different thing.  Both of which, though I don't disagree with the latter, are losing battles.

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, kmnj said:

and mac is drafting just as bad-all of his picks he has one good player to show for it and ANYBODY would have made that pick-he is TERRIBLE

the last guy that knew what he was doing was parcells-he drafted and brought in some real quality players

 

 

Dorian Boose, that's right. Guy was tremendous.

[kmnj]

55 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Parcells was a good drafter? I'd love to see that list while he was here.

he drafted what could be argued is the best draft our franchise has ever had for one season

Ellis

Abraham

Pennington

Bect

Coles

 

throw  in getting curtis martin for us too

[kmnj]

some may say the draft with klecko and powell was better but I disagree