Interesting Philosophy from Maligned GM

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I shall ask you then. Why did this website give him a B grade?

Because people like you **** up the curve?  

Because more than half the board was excited about having a super sh*tty team to get the #1 overall pick?

How am I doing?

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Hahahahahaha!  

First off, you said that nobody is second guessing passing on Watson because "that would be hypocrisy" since they were all so happy with the Adams pick.  I showed they were saying we should have picked Watson before the ******* draft.  Who gives a flying **** when "those mocks were made?"  I'm sure it was well after Adams completed his scintillating mid-pack performance in all the workouts.  PS: They weren't mocks, they were articles. You can read the date on each.

As for Cimini, I am not right or wrong.  Those are his words, not mine. What hasn't Watson done?  Won a championship?  How did I know that you would point that out?  He has not lost a championship either.  He doesn't even have to get better, just play like this and Jets fans will be banging their heads against the wall for another decade.  As for not being trusted with the ball to close a game, I honestly do not understand what kind of mushrooms you ate.

Glad you realize we are correct.  Next time we will try to wait until the proper time to be correct. It is so annoying being right ahead of time.

Then why are all of you jumping the gun and proclaiming Watson the next great one when his coach doesn’t even trust him in the 4th quarter to ice the game?

If you want to say that Macc should have picked Watson, in the interest of fairness and logic, you have to wait a couple of years until Watson either wins a title or plays consistently.

As for the mocks, if they were made in January, his was before he fell in the draft so I don’t know what info these mocks ha

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Jetster said:

There were a LOT of Jets fans on these boards not in lock step with resigning Revis & many more didn't want to resign Wilkerson to a huge contract.

Not in public. Not in the media. Not from the experts

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Because people like you **** up the curve?  

Because more than half the board was excited about having a super sh*tty team to get the #1 overall pick?

How am I doing?

I didn’t give him a B in that thread. Go look below fat the thread for mid season grades. Mike Maccagnan got a B. How did this site give him a b

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I shall ask you then. Why did this website give him a B grade?

This is a fan website. Most fans like to think the best of teams they root for (not unlike family/friends). That doesn't make them good judges of NFL general managers.

All most fans know are emotional things like the way we all hated seeing Revis winning a SB with the Pats; they don't consider the risk in outbidding the rest of planet earth for his services after he accomplished everything he ever wanted to accomplish on the field.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This is a fan website. Most fans like to think the best of teams they root for (not unlike family/friends). That doesn't make them good judges of NFL general managers.

All most fans know are emotional things like the way we all hated seeing Revis winning a SB with the Pats; they don't consider the risk in outbidding the rest of planet earth for his services after he accomplished everything he ever wanted to accomplish on the field.

Fair enough. So why should I trust everybody here saying Maccagnan sucks when fans dont make good judges?

[Jetster]

2 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Not in public. Not in the media. Not from the experts

Poppycock. I had posts about Mo being nothing but average and padding his stats vs sh*tty teams. Go back & find some of them.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Fair enough. So why should I trust everybody here saying Maccagnan sucks when fans dont make good judges?

You shouldn't. You should keep doing what you're doing, since you've been right about everything so far.

I mean, are we now superbowl contenders or are we now superbowl contenders?

[Augustiniak]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Clearly, if Bowles won't play the creme de la creme in Christian Hackenberg or Bryce Petty, then that means he wouldn't play a ready, young QB drafted with the 6th overall pick.

nope.  not until the owner tells him to.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

You shouldn't. You should keep doing what you're doing, since you've been right about everything so far.

I mean, are we now superbowl contenders or are we now superbowl contenders?

OK. And I believe that Mike Maccagnan has been an solid, average GM. Not great, but not horrible. That's my opinion

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Then why are all of you jumping the gun and proclaiming Watson the next great one when his coach doesn’t even trust him in the 4th quarter to ice the game?

If you want to say that Macc should have picked Watson, in the interest of fairness and logic, you have to wait a couple of years until Watson either wins a title or plays consistently.

As for the mocks, if they were made in January, his was before he fell in the draft so I don’t know what info these mocks ha

What the **** are you talking about?  They had 4 drives in the 4th quarter.  The kid scored TDs on 2 and the last started with 14 seconds left.  Considering your utter lack of understanding of the game, I assume you are talking about the drive that started at their own 6?  Most coaches would have their QB throwing in that situation with the lead and 2 minutes left?  Elway, Marino, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre would have been handing off under the circumstances. Why don't you click the ******* link and tell me when they were posted?  As I said, they weren't mocks.  They were articles.  Read them.  You might learn something. 

Sporting News April 27, Connor Hughes April 20, JetPress April 15, CBS March 30, Cimini April 28.  Not a ******* January in sight. 

[Sperm Edwards]

8 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

nope.  not until the owner tells him to.

The owner is lacking in many areas, but he doesn't step in to do such things, as much as everyone believes he's been micromanaging every move and non-move all along.

Bowles plays his first round picks. Always has. 

38 year-old Josh McCown's presence isn't keeping any players on the bench unless those kids are viewed as lost causes. Maccagnan's QB selections have simply been just that bad.

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This is a fan website. Most fans like to think the best of teams they root for (not unlike family/friends). That doesn't make them good judges of NFL general managers.

All most fans know are emotional things like the way we all hated seeing Revis winning a SB with the Pats; they don't consider the risk in outbidding the rest of planet earth for his services after he accomplished everything he ever wanted to accomplish on the field.

We must not be friends. 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

What the **** are you talking about?  They had 4 drives in the 4th quarter.  The kid scored TDs on 2 and the last started with 14 seconds left.  Considering your utter lack of understanding of the game, I assume you are talking about the drive that started at their own 6?  Most coaches would have their QB throwing in that situation with the lead and 2 minutes left?  Elway, Marino, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre would have been handing off under the circumstances. Why don't you click the ******* link and tell me when they were posted?  As I said, they weren't mocks.  They were articles.  Read them.  You might learn something. 

Sporting News April 27, Connor Hughes April 20, JetPress April 15, CBS March 30, Cimini April 28.  Not a ******* January in sight. 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171030/theories-2017-nfl-season-unsolved-mysteries-surprises-questions-week-8-why-bill-obrien-houston-texans-trust-deshaun-watson

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171030/theories-2017-nfl-season-unsolved-mysteries-surprises-questions-week-8-why-bill-obrien-houston-texans-trust-deshaun-watson

Bill Barnwell says that Bill O'Brien is a conservative coach and that is a knock on Watson?  Read the article.  That is what it says.  It calls his decision making "curious"  That is how polite people say stupid, but he seemed pretty trusted to me yesterday.  Inside of 2 minutes you kill the clock.  Most coaches take that chance, up 4. 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The owner is lacking in many areas, but he doesn't step in to do such things, as much as everyone believes he's been micromanaging every move and non-move all along.

Bowles plays his first round picks. Always has. 

38 year-old Josh McCown's presence isn't keeping any players on the bench unless those kids are viewed as lost causes. 

he plays his first round picks which just happen to be on defense.  

he played maye, a defensive 2nd round pick, from the get go.  hack hasn't played yet.  devin smith was just starting to get reps but he is injury prone.

he played mauldin right away, a 3rd round pick.  ditto jordan jenkins.  stewart, another 3rd round pick, who just happens to play offense, was inactive this past week.

petty is the backup qb, a 4th round pick, who only plays when all other qbs are injured.  burris, a defensive 4th rounder, saw 22 snaps yesterday.  hansen, another 4th round pick who just happens to play offense, saw all of 6 snaps yesterday.

do we see the pattern yet?

 

[Bleedin Green]

6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

he plays his first round picks which just happen to be on defense.  

he played maye, a defensive 2nd round pick, from the get go.  hack hasn't played yet.  devin smith was just starting to get reps but he is injury prone.

he played mauldin right away, a 3rd round pick.  ditto jordan jenkins.  stewart, another 3rd round pick, who just happens to play offense, was inactive this past week.

petty is the backup qb, a 4th round pick, who only plays when all other qbs are injured.  burris, a defensive 4th rounder, saw 22 snaps yesterday.  hansen, another 4th round pick who just happens to play offense, saw all of 6 snaps yesterday.

do we see the pattern yet?

 

The pattern I see is people fabricate this idea that he Bowles refuses to play young players, when the evidence suggests otherwise, particularly on the side of the ball that is always said to have far more of his own involvement.  Take a look at the first two draft classes under Macc/Bowles and where exactly was there some grave injustice for offensive players?

Devin Smith - Has been healthy for about 15 minutes, has been on IR or PUP every year
Bryce Petty - Got an opportunity in year 2, did not play well
Jarvis Harrison - Out of the league
Christian Hackenberg - Team said he wouldn't be ready to play rookie year, was immeasurably awful this year in preseason despite being given every chance to prove otherwise
Brandon Shell - Starter
Charone Peake - Limited playing time in rookie year, currently on IR

That's it, and doesn't even cover the opportunities given to the likes of Robby Anderson and Jalin Marshall.

So other than personal desires to rather see Petty get a second chance after last season's flop, what supports this idea that Bowles would refuse to make this move?  I'm not even a Bowles fan, and I can understand the preference to see Petty over McCown, but this storyline is nothing more than something repeated by annoyed fans, with little to support it.  I can also understand this displeasure out of the lack of play from the rookie WRs this year, as I'm there too, but it brings serious questions if that was all on Bowles, considering Macc was the one who felt compelled to run out and get the team two more WRs last minute, after seeing what they had in camp.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

he plays his first round picks which just happen to be on defense.  

he played maye, a defensive 2nd round pick, from the get go.  hack hasn't played yet.  devin smith was just starting to get reps but he is injury prone.

he played mauldin right away, a 3rd round pick.  ditto jordan jenkins.  stewart, another 3rd round pick, who just happens to play offense, was inactive this past week.

petty is the backup qb, a 4th round pick, who only plays when all other qbs are injured.  burris, a defensive 4th rounder, saw 22 snaps yesterday.  hansen, another 4th round pick who just happens to play offense, saw all of 6 snaps yesterday.

do we see the pattern yet?

 

Yeah, better players are typically taken higher, and/or where there's an opening from the prior season's starter. So he plays them. If another opening presents itself, then younger players get a chance. Devin Smith kept getting reps after he showed he was unreliable. Bowles still kept putting him out there. Just as he did with one of his other rookie favorites in Jalin Marshall. But neither was going to open the season ahead of Marshall or Decker, and you'd be hard-pressed to produce a HC who would do that after those 2 made Ryan Fitzpatrick look like a starting QB (to some).

McCown keeps a Petty and a Hackenberg on the bench. Not a Watson.

Not to mention, those players all play at positions where you can ease a player onto and off the field. QB and OL you don't do that. You go with the guy all-in, or not-at-all-in. So at QB/OL you have a real decision to make; DB, WR, LB, etc. you can give a little more or a little less playing time based on practices, opponents, etc. and there's no rush-rush-rush to get him starters' reps.

Also throwing out there other names of players the Jets have drafted don't therefore make them equivalent to a QB selected 6th in the country simply because they were all once drafted by NFL teams.

[Augustiniak]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

Not to mention, those players all play at positions where you can ease a player onto and off the field. QB and OL you don't do that. You go with the guy all-in, or not-at-all-in. So at QB/OL you have a real decision to make; DB, WR, LB, etc. you can give a little more or a little less playing time based on practices, opponents, etc.

 

a perfect criticism of the gm.  he takes non-premium positions in the first round, which makes it easier for the coach to use the defense players immediately.  

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

a perfect criticism of the gm.  he takes non-premium positions in the first round, which makes it easier for the coach to use the defense players immediately.  

He takes non-premium positions because he doesn't place a premium on certain positions. He has a scout's mentality, which is never draft a bust in round 1, even if it means the 1st round pick doesn't appreciably move the needle.

None of that means the HC is going to subject himself to the ire of the media, the players, the fans, and everyone, by benching a QB his GM just selected 6th in the country in favor of 38 year-old Josh McCown. 

[NoBowles]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The owner is lacking in many areas, but he doesn't step in to do such things, as much as everyone believes he's been micromanaging every move and non-move all along.

Bowles plays his first round picks. Always has. 

38 year-old Josh McCown's presence isn't keeping any players on the bench unless those kids are viewed as lost causes. Maccagnan's QB selections have simply been just that bad.

SPermEdwards, aka, FlyOnWall

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

He takes non-premium positions because he doesn't place a premium on certain positions. He has a scout's mentality, which is never draft a bust in round 1, even if it means the 1st round pick doesn't appreciably move the needle.

None of that means the HC is going to subject himself to the ire of the media, the players, the fans, and everyone, by benching a QB his GM just selected 6th in the country in favor of 38 year-old Josh McCown. 

exactly.  and i can easily see a scenario next draft where he takes a LT in round 1, citing BAP, low bust potential.  then takes a cb with the jets 2nd round pick, again citing BAP but also a need, then taking a lower tier, lower ceiling qb late 2nd or early 3rd round, someone who wouldn't beat out a 39 year old mccown, and someone who bowles can easily bury on the inactive list while petty remains the backup.  and then we'll be watching mccown again, like we watched fitz again, and the losing will continue, the remaining veterans like forte/kerley will start bitching, and the cycle will start all over again.  and we'll all be sitting here, typing, complaining, lamenting, hoping that next year, in the 2019 draft, we'll get a qb in the first round and the head coach will actually play him.  that's what we are facing unless mccags deviates from his scout mentality of taking the highest rated player on the board.  ask the rams and eagles how it's working out.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

exactly.  and i can easily see a scenario next draft where he takes a LT in round 1, citing BAP, low bust potential.  then takes a cb with the jets 2nd round pick, again citing BAP but also a need, then taking a lower tier, lower ceiling qb late 2nd or early 3rd round, someone who wouldn't beat out a 39 year old mccown, and someone who bowles can easily bury on the inactive list while petty remains the backup.  and then we'll be watching mccown again, like we watched fitz again, and the losing will continue, the remaining veterans like forte/kerley will start bitching, and the cycle will start all over again.  and we'll all be sitting here, typing, complaining, lamenting, hoping that next year, in the 2019 draft, we'll get a qb in the first round and the head coach will actually play him.  that's what we are facing unless mccags deviates from his scout mentality of taking the highest rated player on the board.  ask the rams and eagles how it's working out.

I don't know. The 3-3 start aside, if the team finishes with 5-6 wins (or less) then McCown's not returning no matter who the HC is and no matter what his total, on-paper stats; stats that treat all parts of all games equally.

There was all this pressure on Maccagnan to re-sign Fitzpatrick - from his HC, from the media, from fans - after his reccordz season in 2015. Team went 5-11 a year later (3-8 in Fitz's starts) and they let him go. Unlike with Fitz, there was no groundswell of pressure to bring in Josh McCown.

They might very well bring him back as a backup, but he's not starting unless there's no one else left. 

A mentor QB who starts for 2 seasons isn't a mentor. He's a starter.

[jeremy2020]

2 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Don't be silly, you don't have to pay them if you just keep drafting them.  Never thought of that, did you?  Clearly the Jets have a brilliance that's just too far beyond the scope of understanding for the simple minded.

No, you still have to pay them. You just get the extra privilege of paying for a position that can be staffed with JAGs in addition to spending the draft capital.

The Bills, for example, are using JAGs at safety which are being roughly paid the same as the two rookies over their contracts. One of their safeties is leading the league in interceptions. The other one was recently injured and now *his* JAG backup (who they actually cut earlier in the year and signed back) has more interceptions than either of the vaunted rookie duo.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't know. The 3-3 start aside, if the team finishes with 5-6 wins (or less) then McCown's not returning no matter who the HC is and no matter what his total, on-paper stats; stats that treat all parts of all games equally.

There was all this pressure on Maccagnan to re-sign Fitzpatrick - from his HC, from the media, from fans - after his reccordz season in 2015. Team went 5-11 a year later (3-8 in Fitz's starts) and they let him go. Unlike with Fitz, there was no groundswell of pressure to bring in Josh McCown.

They might very well bring him back as a backup, but he's not starting unless there's no one else left. 

A mentor QB who starts for 2 seasons isn't a mentor. He's a starter.

I wouldnt count on the Jets definitively going QB in round 1 next year. And if they dont, Mccown's most likely the starter again.

[JustInFudge]

I assume when you said “interesting” in the title you meant, duh?

 

[Bleedin Green]

8 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

No, you still have to pay them. You just get the extra privilege of paying for a position that can be staffed with JAGs in addition to spending the draft capital.

The Bills, for example, are using JAGs at safety which are being roughly the same as the two rookies over their contracts. One of their safeties is leading the league in interceptions. The other one was recently injured and now *his* JAG backup (who they actually cut earlier in the year and signed back) has more interceptions than either of the vaunted rookie duo.

You don't have to pay them if you just draft another two in 3 years.  Didn't think of that brilliant plan, did you?  I mean and come on, who wants JAGs?  They are for losers.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

I assume when you said “interesting” in the title you meant, duh?

 

As I said, I didn't mean it was an interesting philosophy.  I thought it was interesting who said it and that he mentioned the positions - none of which we have covered. 

[#27TheDominator]

12 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I wouldnt count on the Jets definitively going QB in round 1 next year. And if they dont, Mccown's most likely the starter again.

He keeps up the 70% and nearly 2:1 TD:INT and how much does he get next year?  We know it's more than $12M, amirite?

[Sperm Edwards]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I wouldnt count on the Jets definitively going QB in round 1 next year. And if they dont, Mccown's most likely the starter again.

My point was that I don't know that it's so likely they bring back McCown in the first place. The only popular part of the whole courting process was when we learned McCown initially left NJ without a contract.

This thread has some great ones in it, for those who'd forgotten:

Then there's the follow-up after he was signed, with all the predictions that of course he was brought in to be the backup. Duh-duh obvious. Because $6m is backup money now:

 

[CanadienJetsFan]

27 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

exactly.  and i can easily see a scenario next draft where he takes a LT in round 1, citing BAP, low bust potential.  then takes a cb with the jets 2nd round pick, again citing BAP but also a need, then taking a lower tier, lower ceiling qb late 2nd or early 3rd round, someone who wouldn't beat out a 39 year old mccown, and someone who bowles can easily bury on the inactive list while petty remains the backup.  and then we'll be watching mccown again, like we watched fitz again, and the losing will continue, the remaining veterans like forte/kerley will start bitching, and the cycle will start all over again.  and we'll all be sitting here, typing, complaining, lamenting, hoping that next year, in the 2019 draft, we'll get a qb in the first round and the head coach will actually play him.  that's what we are facing unless mccags deviates from his scout mentality of taking the highest rated player on the board.  ask the rams and eagles how it's working out.

You might be spot on with the draft picks, but watch him sign cousins at a kazillion dollars...

Bam! We're playoff contenders once again...lol.

I don't think Maccagnan's job is on the line. I think Woody and his bro are all in with his purge plan. As for bowles's future, I think it'll all come down to how the next 8 games go. If there's division, dissent and/or crisis in the clubhouse, he's gone.

If he's able to keep them  (especially the young leaders ) together. ...like him or not. He'll be back for 2018.

[varjet]

I think despite Watson's success this year the ghost of 1st Round QB busts remains.  That is a job killer.  For a GM conscious about keeping his job, picking a QB and paying him money to not be good is basically the end.

If you pick a good DE or S high, and they make plays, make all rookie lists, etc., you can argue that you are doing your job.

But in today's NFL, the only way to be sure to get a decent QB is to pick a sure thing very high, and to do that you either need to take a risk and trade up, or STINK for a year.   Stinking for a year also risks a GM's and Coaches job, so MaccBowles opted out of that too.

I think this is basically a the case of a GM and Coach who are dancing around with a Clueless Family of Owners.   There is no other way to describe this.

[Sperm Edwards]

Lol 21 TDs in his first 8 games. That includes the first 2, when he wasn't even the opening day starter, and was understandably relegated to dumpoffs and game-managing for his couple.

The 6 starts since, he's put up 20 TDs and 7 turnovers. In less than half of the first half of a first season; one in which some said he'd be unready to start all year long (as was said of Wentz and others). 

Just staggering production from a rookie. 

[#27TheDominator]

44 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He takes non-premium positions because he doesn't place a premium on certain positions. He has a scout's mentality, which is never draft a bust in round 1, even if it means the 1st round pick doesn't appreciably move the needle.

None of that means the HC is going to subject himself to the ire of the media, the players, the fans, and everyone, by benching a QB his GM just selected 6th in the country in favor of 38 year-old Josh McCown. 

What do scouts have against high ceiling/low floor guys?  That is my big problem with Maccagnan.  We need a homerun, but are deathly afraid to swing for the fences.  Choking up and going opposite field isn't going to do it.  Not every ******* year anyway.  Take a ******* risk on somebody that can be a stud at a value position.  Stop taking guys based solely on having the least likelihood of being a bust.  

[varjet]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

What do scouts have against high ceiling/low floor guys?  That is my big problem with Maccagnan.  We need a homerun, but are deathly afraid to swing for the fences.  Choking up and going opposite field isn't going to do it.  Not every ******* year anyway.  Take a ******* risk on somebody that can be a stud at a value position.  Stop taking guys based solely on having the least likelihood of being a bust.  

I think the right answer for Mac would have been to trade down and build with players and saved money.  

It probably required a bit of risk too, which he did not want to take.   Lattimore is looking good.  It could have been bad.

But you wonder what kind of analytics they do.  Landon Collins was a great pick at 33, mimicing the success of Chancellor.  Neal then goes in the 20s, and Adams goes 6.  Adams is not Earl Thomas or Eric Berry.    He was a great pick 10+ picks lower.  

Adams is going to make alot of tackles.  He will be a tweener S/LB.  He is not going to supercover TEs.  he is not going to make interceptions.