The real reason Denzel Mims is buried on the New York Jets’ depth chart

[Paradis]

13 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Canadian therapists have to bring the tough love.  

 

maybe i'm being a dick. (probably am) but seriously -- warfish? The man logs on to hear himself talk. I mean, how on earth does his style of arbitrator discourse invite others to participate? When was the last time he said - "hey that's a good point...." or "I never thought of it like that--"  It's like hanging out with the evening manager of a telemarketing company.

[Integrity28]

6 minutes ago, Paradis said:

maybe i'm being a dick. (probably am) but seriously -- warfish? The man logs on to hear himself talk. I mean, how on earth does his style of arbitrator discourse invite others to participate? When was the last time he said - "hey that's a good point...." or "I never thought of it like that--"  It's like hanging out with the evening manager of a telemarketing company.

He says that sort of stuff to me... I had to break him first. It took like 20 years.

[Integrity28]

38 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He didn't tell the media he had playbook memorization issues for the prior 2 months. At some point, it's fair game so people don't think Mims is being benched for spite or disciplinary reasons (as some had already guessed), or that there was some other petty reason. Saleh seems a pretty personal guy, not some cold, Coughlin-esque douche. 

He's had how long to get this playbook memorized? How many months? It's not like there are 2000 plays, for 3 different positions, and 3 different route trees for each. He's not a new acquisition from last month or anything, so he'll have had received his new playbook plenty of time ago. 

At some point, the player loses the benefit of the doubt. As best we can tell he's literally the only one, so the benefit of the doubt is right now heavily with the coaches not the player here. There's no evidence at all that Mims is any type of victim here. It's time for him to grow up. Past time, honestly. 

I hope he does; we don't have a baker's dozen of 24 year olds with his size & speed & skills. 

Co-signed.

Plus farts.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

I can say one thing: They are not totally giving up on him just yet.  Take this for what you will, but from everything I’ve heard, they just want to challenge him to be great because he did leave a lot to be desired this summer.  There have been questionable moments, from both parties, on the back end, yes…but I think they’ll square this away barring something drastic.  Ultimately, how Mims responds is up to him.  He’s been frustrated for sure.  I liken this situation to Devante Parker’s second year in Miami.  Guy has the all the tools, but needs to be told he hasn’t “made it” yet.

 

 

 

 

luv u 2 :*.

I get it, and as leader/coach - i have to do similar things; short term pain, to tease out longer term greatness. I'm with you.... my post in this thread reflects more so the push back to contemporary "it's either or A or B"...  what an asinine position to take. Yea the guy suddenly forgot how to play football *eye roll*...

The accountability falls on the staff at some point to harness his talent. This thread loaded with a lack insight the angles here. If you play "I'll push him to be great" card and don't do it right - you wind up with low confidence, disenfranchised player who's lost interest in jumping through hoops. 

Imagine that. 

[#27TheDominator]

17 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I get it, and as leader/coach - i have to do similar things; short term pain, to tease out longer term greatness. I'm with you.... my post in this thread reflects more so the push back to contemporary "it's either or A or B"...  what an asinine position to take. Yea the guy suddenly forgot how to play football *eye roll*...

The accountability falls on the staff at some point to harness his talent. This thread loaded with a lack insight the angles here. If you play "I'll push him to be great" card and don't do it right - you wind up with low confidence, disenfranchised player who's lost interest in jumping through hoops. 

Imagine that. 

This fine, but the if the player responds to the coach by losing interest in jumping through hoops instead of achieving greatness, you have a bad fit.  Some guys just don't respond to certain coaches.  Sometimes it is a bad fit.  Sometimes the player is just dumb/lazy.  If it happens too much, then you have a bad/unsuccessful coach.  IMO at this point I think we should give Saleh the benefit of the doubt.

[Paradis]

26 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

This fine, but the if the player responds to the coach by losing interest in jumping through hoops instead of achieving greatness, you have a bad fit.  Some guys just don't respond to certain coaches.  Sometimes it is a bad fit.  Sometimes the player is just dumb/lazy.  If it happens too much, then you have a bad/unsuccessful coach.  IMO at this point I think we should give Saleh the benefit of the doubt.

yea but he hasn't been dumb and lazy pre-LaFleur. So lets not give that "concern" the benefit of the doubt either, Dominator.

You are correct though, in the sense that we/Jets should always give the CS the benefit of the doubt initially. We hired them because we believe in their ability to coach - so give them some space to do it. Just really sucks when it's the guy who was supposed to be Corey Davis... we were hoping to not "buy" our WR1 for once... but i've been cool with it... but "they wanted him to be Deebo..." dah fuk

Really need to see Zach Wilson not fending off murder this sunday.

[sec101row23]

8 minutes ago, Paradis said:

yea but he hasn't been dumb and lazy pre-LaFleur. So lets not give that "concern" the benefit of the doubt either, Dominator.

You are correct though, in the sense that we/Jets should always give the CS the benefit of the doubt initially. We hired them because we believe in their ability to coach - so give them some space to do it. Just really sucks when it's the guy who was supposed to be Corey Davis... we were hoping to not "buy" our WR1 for once... but i've been cool with it... but "they wanted him to be Deebo..." dah fuk

Really need to see Zach Wilson not fending off murder this sunday.

I get that the staff may want the receivers to know all the routes for a particular play, it makes sense from a strategic standpoint.  But, that seems shortsighted from a developmental perspective.  So because Mims may not know what the slot responsibility is on a play, he can’t see the field at X?   How are you going to develop any young receivers that way?  Are they really telling us that Braxton Berrios needs to know the X role?  Lol…come on, he’ll never see the field in that role.   I can’t recall seeing him or Jeff Smith ever lined up at X.   

[doitny]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He didn't tell the media he had playbook memorization issues for the prior 2 months. At some point, it's fair game so people don't think Mims is being benched for spite or disciplinary reasons (as some had already guessed), or that there was some other petty reason. Saleh seems a pretty personal guy, not some cold, Coughlin-esque douche. 

He's had how long to get this playbook memorized? How many months? It's not like there are 2000 plays, for 3 different positions, and 3 different route trees for each. He's not a new acquisition from last month or anything, so he'll have had received his new playbook plenty of time ago. 

At some point, the player loses the benefit of the doubt. As best we can tell he's literally the only one, so the benefit of the doubt is right now heavily with the coaches not the player here. There's no evidence at all that Mims is any type of victim here. It's time for him to grow up. Past time, honestly. 

I hope he does; we don't have a baker's dozen of 24 year olds with his size & speed & skills. 

and Berrios is in the same spot as him having to know all 3 route trees and he was ahead of him on Sunday.

[Integrity28]

Watch Terry McLauren tonight. His route running is fantastic.

Then watch Mims run routes this past weekend. 

Then stop acting like you can’t figure this out.

[Integrity28]

21 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

that seems shortsighted from a developmental perspective

Unless the development of Zach is their priority, in which case trying to get him on the field with guys that know their assignments is preferred. 

Let’s face it. If the OL had given Zach time, would there be this outcry for the emancipation of Denzel Mims?

No.

Fans are glomming into this because they think they’ve unlocked the key to the loss. This ain’t it. The OL lost the game.

Mims deserves room to learn his role. This debate is absurd.

Our RBs couldn’t advance more that 8 inches n average before they were hit in the backfield.

Zach’s footwork was slop because he had almost instant shell shock. He compensated for bad timing with his arm, but the OL gave us nothing.

Blame them.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

yea but he hasn't been dumb and lazy pre-LaFleur. So lets not give that "concern" the benefit of the doubt either, Dominator.

You are correct though, in the sense that we/Jets should always give the CS the benefit of the doubt initially. We hired them because we believe in their ability to coach - so give them some space to do it. Just really sucks when it's the guy who was supposed to be Corey Davis... we were hoping to not "buy" our WR1 for once... but i've been cool with it... but "they wanted him to be Deebo..." dah fuk

Really need to see Zach Wilson not fending off murder this sunday.

When I said dumb/lazy, I was not specifically discussing Mims.  I was just generically referring to potential causes of these circumstances.   Think of Parcells dumping Hugh Douglas.  Douglas certainly had earned more of our good will than Mims has.  Mims may be a viable WR in the NFL, but sometimes you've got to crack a few eggs...

FWIW, I shared your desire for Mims last year.  I still hope he turns out, but we will see.  Maybe he is like a couple of my other favorites, Robert Meachem and Chris Conley.  They are both physical freaks and I haven't heard complaints about their work ethic or brains, but they ended up as 300-750 yard a year receivers.  Maybe Mims will end up similar.  Not a bust, but not Terry McLaurin either. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

I get that the staff may want the receivers to know all the routes for a particular play, it makes sense from a strategic standpoint.  But, that seems shortsighted from a developmental perspective.  So because Mims may not know what the slot responsibility is on a play, he can’t see the field at X?   How are you going to develop any young receivers that way?  Are they really telling us that Braxton Berrios needs to know the X role?  Lol…come on, he’ll never see the field in that role.   I can’t recall seeing him or Jeff Smith ever lined up at X.   

First of all, I think they are probably referring more to the route options than the different positions.  Also, I think people are too worried about the distinctions.  First, I think they prefer to be able to move these guys into the different positions, but more importantly, if you play him at X are you pulling Davis?  That seems shortsighted and wrong.  Davis missed 7 snaps.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

 

Fans are glomming into this because they think they’ve unlocked the key to the loss. This ain’t it. The OL lost the game.

Mims deserves room to learn his role. This debate is absurd.

 

Mims had little to nothing to do with the score at the end of the day. I wish more posters would stop putting this discussion through a correct/incorrect lens. There's a lot happening, it's not one thing.... But, I am suggesting the current approach to Mims lacks some sensibilities (show me Berrios needing to learn X) and he's not responding in the way they had maybe hoped. At least not yet. 

Nothing wrong with changing their approach. Sticking with it and expecting different results is... questionable. 

[Albaniajet]

56 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Watch Terry McLauren tonight. His route running is fantastic.

Then watch Mims run routes this past weekend. 

Then stop acting like you can’t figure this out.

I guess we could watch all 3 plays but I recall one of them he got a 40 yard reception 

[Integrity28]

8 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Nothing wrong with changing their approach. Sticking with it and expect different results is... questionable. 

I agree with you in principle. Just not timing. I guess I am more patient.

End of the day, I don’t care - which is probably why.

[Integrity28]

9 minutes ago, Albaniajet said:

I guess we could watch all 3 plays but I recall one of them he got a 40 yard reception 

That wasn’t a good route either.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

Watch Terry McLauren tonight. His route running is fantastic.

Then watch Mims run routes this past weekend. 

Then stop acting like you can’t figure this out.

i leave it at this because i think we've circled the wagons enough (i'm sure we'll pick it up next monday)....

If (as your boss) i sh*t on your desk for 2 weeks and chastised your reports - then sent you into the sales meeting to pitch printers to Acme office supplies, i'd love to see the film on your body language in there. ...Psych 101, time to change it up. You're losing the player.

[Guilhermezmc]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

Watch Terry McLauren tonight. His route running is fantastic.

Then watch Mims run routes this past weekend. 

Then stop acting like you can’t figure this out.

he played 2 snaps

[Integrity28]

4 minutes ago, Paradis said:

i leave it at this because i think we've circled the wagons enough (i'm sure we'll pick it up next monday)....

If (as your boss) i sh*t on your desk for 2 weeks and chastised your reports - then sent you into the sales meeting to pitch printers to Acme office supplies, i'd love to see the film on your body language in there. ...Psych 101, time to change it up. You're losing the player.

You butchered the metaphor, but recovered well with the oint of your last sentence. ?

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, Guilhermezmc said:

he played 2 snaps

Recognize a troll comment and prosper.

[Albaniajet]

3 minutes ago, Guilhermezmc said:

he played 2 snaps

Yes but the 2 routes weren’t pretty enough

 

i love his comment about Mims not being as good as McLaurin.  And Moore is?

[Paradis]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

You butchered the metaphor, but recovered well with the oint of your last sentence. ?

lol it's true. even as i typed it i thought to myself - circle the wagons...?

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, Albaniajet said:

Yes but the 2 routes weren’t pretty enough

 

i love his comment about Mims not being as good as McLaurin.  And Moore is?

When the fish swim with their outta agape, it’s easier to hook them.

??

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Paradis said:

maybe i'm being a dick. (probably am) but seriously -- warfish? The man logs on to hear himself talk. I mean, how on earth does his style of arbitrator discourse invite others to participate? When was the last time he said - "hey that's a good point...." or "I never thought of it like that--"  It's like hanging out with the evening manager of a telemarketing company.

I don’t disagree with you here.  He’s not a guy that’s easy to converse with at all.  He refuses to budge on anything, ever, and he’s constantly trying to police how people should be as fans, as if he has the one right way people should behave.

I fully expect therapists to recognize that some people are simply d**ks and there’s no talking to them. 

[Integrity28]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don’t disagree with you here.  He’s not a guy that’s easy to converse with at all.  He refuses to budge on anything, ever, and he’s constantly trying to police how people should be as fans, as if he has the one right way people should behave.

I fully expect therapists to recognize that some people are simply d**ks and there’s no talking to them. 

OMG stop being a wuss. Warfish is a good dude, just thick in the thighs and noggin. Who cares?

[#27TheDominator]

10 hours ago, Paradis said:

i leave it at this because i think we've circled the wagons enough (i'm sure we'll pick it up next monday)....

If (as your boss) i sh*t on your desk for 2 weeks and chastised your reports - then sent you into the sales meeting to pitch printers to Acme office supplies, i'd love to see the film on your body language in there. ...Psych 101, time to change it up. You're losing the player.

Will my check still clear on Friday?  If so, I don't give a ****.  I've probably worked in that office.  

[Claymation]

The real reason Mims doesn't see the field as much is that he is not as good as some of the other Jets receivers. It's just that simple. There is no conspiracy theory, no grassy knoll, just a guy who looks ordinary. He lacks effort, and is a poor route runner.

[Warfish]

10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don’t disagree with you here.  He’s not a guy that’s easy to converse with at all.  He refuses to budge on anything, ever, and he’s constantly trying to police how people should be as fans, as if he has the one right way people should behave.

I fully expect therapists to recognize that some people are simply d**ks and there’s no talking to them. 

Sorry you feel that way 80, especially given that we've had plenty of exchanges over the years I thought went just fine.  Just because we may not agree at the end or one of us stands firm in our views doesn't make us "dicks" in my view.  I'm disappointed you hold me in such low regard, I certainly don't feel that way about you generally.

With that said, how many times have I changed your mind?  It's a bit silly IMO to be mad because I "refuse to budge", when I can't recall one time in our many exchanges where I changed your mind, lol.  Most folks don't change their minds here from my reading of the place.

And yes, obvious hypocrisy is definitely one of my pet peeves, for football fans and in life generally.  But I can't "control" any of you with a post or observation, so please lets not get hyperbolic about it.  I'm just posting my thoughts and opinions, just like everyone else.  I don't expect everyone to like or agree with everything I think.

Regardless, if you (or anyone) think your JN experience will be better with me on ignore, by all means, go for it mate.  We all gotta decide who we want to exchange with, no harm, no foul.  /shrug

[#27TheDominator]

Weak.  In the future please make sure to make me laugh during any feud.

s.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

OMG stop being a wuss. Warfish is a good dude, just thick in the thighs and noggin. Who cares?

One can be a good dude in real life and also be annoying to argue with on JN.  I am that way a lot of the time and so are you.  It is what it is.

[Jetsfan80]

33 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Sorry you feel that way 80, especially given that we've had plenty of exchanges over the years I thought went just fine.  Just because we may not agree at the end or one of us stands firm in our views doesn't make us "dicks" in my view.  I'm disappointed you hold me in such low regard, I certainly don't feel that way about you generally.

With that said, how many times have I changed your mind?  It's a bit silly IMO to be mad because I "refuse to budge", when I can't recall one time in our many exchanges where I changed your mind, lol.  Most folks don't change their minds here from my reading of the place.

And yes, obvious hypocrisy is definitely one of my pet peeves, for football fans and in life generally.  But I can't "control" any of you with a post or observation, so please lets not get hyperbolic about it.  I'm just posting my thoughts and opinions, just like everyone else.  I don't expect everyone to like or agree with everything I think.

Regardless, if you (or anyone) think your JN experience will be better with me on ignore, by all means, go for it mate.  We all gotta decide who we want to exchange with, no harm, no foul.  /shrug

 

I have indeed changed my mind on topics based on arguments that have been made by others on JN, and am at least occasionally willing to concede when someone makes a good point, even if I still don't agree on their larger point.  It makes for better discussions when you're willing to be a little flexible.  You can post your thoughts and opinions like anyone else, and a lot of the time you do indeed have intelligent things to say, but its HOW you discuss things that annoy people at times. 

And yes, I'm fully aware I annoy people too.  Especially when the topic is Darnold or Mike Maccagnan.  

[Warfish]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I have indeed changed my mind on topics based on arguments that have been made by others on JN, and am at least occasionally willing to concede when someone makes a good point, even if I still don't agree on their larger point.  It makes for better discussions when you're willing to be a little flexible.  You can post your thoughts and opinions like anyone else, and a lot of the time you do indeed have intelligent things to say, but its HOW you discuss things that annoy people at times. 

And yes, I'm fully aware I annoy people too.  Especially when the topic is Darnold or Mike Maccagnan.  

I've changed my mind and/or been convinced by plenty of other folks points as well.  

I'll be honest, I feel alot of this is akin to the "Warfish is always a pessimist hater, boo!" feedback I often get.

I think many here only read and absorb what they want to read and absorb, and filter out the rest.  I've been very patient with JD overall and very "optimistic" so far in 2021, more than many here, and more than alot of folks who are literally exploding over the disappointing first game already.  But nobody seems to notice that positivity or remember the many times when I've been positive.

Same goes for this, I've said the equivalent of "good/great point" or expressed agreement many many times, but many folks seem to filter those exchanges out, and only focus on the firm or passionate disagreements.

It's the nature of this communication method I think, we read and respond to thousands and thousands of posts, and we recall what we can, but mostly what stands out (and passionate disagreement stands out more than "yup, great point, I agree!").

Just my observation/opinion.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I've changed my mind and/or been convinced by plenty of other folks points as well.  

I'll be honest, I feel alot of this is akin to the "Warfish is always a pessimist hater, boo!" feedback I often get.

I think many here only read and absorb what they want to read and absorb, and filter out the rest.  I've been very patient with JD overall and very "optimistic" so far in 2021, more than many here, and more than alot of folks who are literally exploding over the disappointing first game already.  But nobody seems to notice that positivity or remember the many times when I've been positive.

Same goes for this, I've said the equivalent of "good/great point" or expressed agreement many many times, but many folks seem to filter those exchanges out, and only focus on the firm or passionate disagreements.

It's the nature of this communication method I think, we read and respond to thousands and thousands of posts, and we recall what we can, but mostly what stands out (and passionate disagreement stands out more than "yup, great point, I agree!").

Just my observation/opinion.  

 

Being negative isn't what I was talking about though.  I tend to be negative too except Joe Douglas seemed to give a glimmer of hope when he arrived (that hope is definitely starting to fade, however).  When your team doesn't win a title in 50+ years of course negativity is to be expected.  

And you're right, I didn't notice the times when you did indeed change your opinion, concede points, and/or demonstrate flexibility.  I'll do better with paying attention there.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And you're right, I didn't notice the times when you did indeed change your opinion, concede points, and/or demonstrate flexibility.  I'll do better with paying attention there.

Just to be clear, it wasn't a criticism of you 80.  I think it's more a human nature thing.  I do it too, I remember people for the stuff that really stands out, not all the times we might have happily agreed.

[Integrity28]

46 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

One can be a good dude in real life and also be annoying to argue with on JN.  I am that way a lot of the time and so are you.  It is what it is.

You’re missing the point. Get over it.