John Beck: “Zach Wilson needs to reinvent himself”

[Jetsfan80]

58 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Mike White is made of glass .. had he started the season he would have been out by week 5.

Better to be injury prone than a healthy scratch.  

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Better to be injury prone than a healthy scratch.  

Doesn't matter why you can't play,  either is a liability. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

Hackett is competent in one way, Aaron Rodgers likes him as a coach ...Why ? Because Hackett probably let Rodgers do a lot of what Rodgers wanted to do hence why Rodgers actually liked him. That's a winning formula that you can probably only achieve with 2 -3 QB's in the NFL Rodgers, Brady and Mahome's . What Hackett will do with a guy like Carr or a Mike White will be more on him to design and build offenses week to week to deal with the various defenses he will be going up against. We will know what we have with Hackett if Carr is the QB probably by Mid season while the team adapts to his philosophy which is not too far off from what we were doing with LaFleur. If Rodgers is the QB this team should be off and running by week 3

If Rodgers….is a big if.

[Anthony Jet]

3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

The worst move the Jets made all year was not starting the season with Mike White at QB . They did not play White because if he did well, which he probably would have, the fans would have been relentless booing Zach when he came back . They figured they could win with Flacco and not dig too deep a hole and avoid any controversy and for the most part they were right until the horrible play by Zach in the Patriots games which cost us a playoff berth. When Zach came back he had guys like Breece Hall and Garrett Wilson and AVT playing out of their minds once they were gone Wilson was exposed in a big way then the Jets made the next mistake in sticking with him too long.

Mike white had a bad preseason

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, Anthony Jet said:

Mike white had a bad preseason

Then worked on fundamentals on the side for weeks because the morons on the Jets  were unable to do that during a season.  
 

Then Mike Whites fundamentals corroded every week until he was knocked out by a bad OLine.  

[Dunnie]

Then worked on fundamentals on the side for weeks because the morons on the Jets  were unable to do that during a season.  
 
Then Mike Whites fundamentals corroded every week until he was knocked out by a bad OLine.  

But I was told that it's unusual for poor OLine play to affect QB fundamentals. I was also told that a QB should never have to work on fundamentals .... Who knew?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Rangers9]

8 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

The worst move the Jets made all year was not starting the season with Mike White at QB . They did not play White because if he did well, which he probably would have, the fans would have been relentless booing Zach when he came back . They figured they could win with Flacco and not dig too deep a hole and avoid any controversy and for the most part they were right until the horrible play by Zach in the Patriots games which cost us a playoff berth. When Zach came back he had guys like Breece Hall and Garrett Wilson and AVT playing out of their minds once they were gone Wilson was exposed in a big way then the Jets made the next mistake in sticking with him too long.

Great skill position players are essential to a QBs success. Rodgers did a lot better with Davonte Adams than without him. So if Zach played better with Breece etc what’s wrong with that the running game esp went south when they got injured. It’s hard for any QB to run an offense when your running game goes from 100 plus to 20 something. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, Dunnie said:

But I was told that it's unusual for poor OLine play to affect QB fundamentals. I was also told that a QB should never have to work on fundamentals .... Who knew?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

Who told you this 

[Patriot Killa]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:09 AM, ChewyandtheJets said:

We put an unprepared rookie on the field behind a weak offensive line in week 1 and he was absolutely demolished by a tough carolina panther defense.  It was brutal.  Not sure if the kid ever got over that

Then he simply was never going to make it

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Who told you this 

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Great skill position players are essential to a QBs success. Rodgers did a lot better with Davonte Adams than without him. So if Zach played better with Breece etc what’s wrong with that the running game esp went south when they got injured. It’s hard for any QB to run an offense when your running game goes from 100 plus to 20 something. 

Zach did not play better my point was those players carried him ..... Zach Wilson never played good I can count on one hand how many good quarters he had since being a Jet 

[jgb]

28 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Zach did not play better my point was those players carried him ..... Zach Wilson never played good I can count on one hand how many good quarters he had since being a Jet 

He had a much better cast Year 2 than Year 1 and an additional year of experience and he was still bottom of the league so… what exactly are they arguing here? That hypothetically maybe he’d be a little “less bad” with some even better players around him. Whoop-dee-friggin-do.

[Smashmouth]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Great skill players cannot elevate literally the worst QB in the NFL into a franchise guy. Yeah, maybe he’d be a little “less bad” with some better players around him. Whoop-dee-friggin-do.

Isn’t it funny that those who defend him the most do so with an argument that QB is essentially fungible?

Those who defend Wilson have no idea what the QB position is all about. They base their argument on what they think he might be rather than what he is

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Those who defend Wilson have no idea what the QB position is all about. They base their argument on what they think he might be rather than what he is

Throws hard. Must be good.

Honestly I think that’s the analysis.

[Dunnie]

Those who defend Wilson have no idea what the QB position is all about. They base their argument on what they think he might be rather than what he is

Those that are willing to not only cast aside undeniable raw talent, but bash him into oblivion, are clueless. The kid should have red shirted for at least a season. Saleh's mantra of game experience is the best teacher is lazy.

No one said Zach was ready or didn't objectively suck.... But the attacks in him because of his youth, upbringing, mom etc etc ... Those have to be called out.

No one I can see is saying Zach should start in August.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Rangers9]

5 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Zach did not play better my point was those players carried him ..... Zach Wilson never played good I can count on one hand how many good quarters he had since being a Jet 

OK with me if you don't want to give a starting QB any credit for a W. It's like not giving a starting pitcher credit for a win. Look we see it all the time with impact players. A great receiver jumps way up to make a catch, one average players usually won't make. Sometimes it's part of the game plan. Any QB will take that and if players don't make plays like that hard to win. Zach managed the team OK and took advantage of his better players like all QBs do. He had two terrible games we actually saw even franchise Qbs last season playing poorly throwing picks and pick 6s. 

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:48 AM, Integrity28 said:

I’d be happy to launch this little turd to the moon.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

7 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Those who defend Wilson have no idea what the QB position is all about. They base their argument on what they think he might be rather than what he is

Joe Douglas basically ignored the COVID level of competition and the pre-COVID tape.

ZW’s ‘19 game vs UW was a microcosm of how he’d look in the NFL.

Completely erased by a middling PAC-12 team that could actually rush the passer somewhat and make some plays on the ball with their secondary.

It’s all there.  The running backwards in the pocket (before getting sacked) trying to imitate Russ and the awful, panicked decision making when pressured.

[Hal N of Provo]

8 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Zach did not play better my point was those players carried him ..... Zach Wilson never played good I can count on one hand how many good quarters he had since being a Jet 

 

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, Dunnie said:

The kid should have red shirted for at least a season.

Did you say that at the time?  Did anyone who liked Zach say that?

I don't think so, quite the contrary, you all demanded he start day 1, and demanded no competition be brought in to compete with him.

3 hours ago, Dunnie said:

No one said Zach was ready or didn't objectively suck....

No, now they just say it was all MLF's fault, or Saleh's fault for starting him day 1, etc, etc, etc, i.e blame deflection, lol.

 

[Dunnie]

38 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Did you say that at the time?  Did anyone who liked Zach say that?

I don't think so, quite the contrary, you all demanded he start day 1, and demanded no competition be brought in to compete with him.

No, now they just say it was all MLF's fault, or Saleh's fault for starting him day 1, etc, etc, etc, i.e blame deflection, lol.

 

Its not blaming ... its just a fact.   It doesn't matter if we knew it at that time ... it wasn't our job to know. you know whos job it was ??? MLF and Saleh's.  Its not deflecting anything ... its just stating a fact .. he was not ready to start, and i do not remember anyone saying anything about competition at all that year.   

The fact that this has become as decisive as Washington politics is pretty laughable.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Dunnie

[Flashlite80]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:14 AM, Patriot Killa said:

what kind of sissy bullsh*t is this? the Jets have more offense firepower than I’ve seen in 25+ years.

this has all gotten very silly. the kid can’t play QB.

I agree.  There was plenty of talent on this team.  What is the wish list for the offseason?  Outside of QB, we need to strengthen the offensive line and it would be nice to get a better #2 receiver. The skill positions were not the problem.

As far as Zach reinventing himself, that's crap too.  He was overwhelmed by the speed of the game.  His reads were slow.  Under pressure, he developed bad footwork and lost focus and didn't see open options downfield.

The stats show Zach was decent when given time.  He was a colossal disaster against pressure.  That is why every team brought constant pressure.  He was not ready.  Yes he missed tons of easy passes.  That was a result of horrible footwork.  These were not issues in his scouting when drafted.

It will do him well to spend a season on ice.  Watch film.  Nail down his mechanics.  Learn how to recognize and burn pressure.  There is always an open zone when pressure is brought.  Good QB's find that guy consistently.  Let the game slow down.  Learn how to get through your second and third reads faster.

I watched him at every home game.  His footwork was terrible.  When he had good footwork and kept his eyes downfield he was a much better QB.  When he got solid protection, he was a much better QB.  Surviving in this league when everyone knows you are helpless against pressure is really tough.  A solid offensive line and a coordinator who plays to your strengths would be nice too.

Zach wasn't ready.  The coaches knew it.  Reports are he was the worst QB in practice.  Mike White and even an aging Flacco proved that over and over.  Will he ever get there?  These are easy fixes for most.  If not, you cut him next off-season.

[Dunnie]

1 minute ago, Flashlite80 said:

I agree.  There was plenty of talent on this team.  What is the wish list for the offseason?  Outside of QB, we need to strengthen the offensive line and it would be nice to get a better #2 receiver. The skill positions were not the problem.

As far as Zach reinventing himself, that's crap too.  He was overwhelmed by the speed of the game.  His reads were slow.  Under pressure, he developed bad footwork and lost focus and didn't see open options downfield.

The stats show Zach was decent when given time.  He was a colossal disaster against pressure.  That is why every team brought constant pressure.  He was not ready.  Yes he missed tons of easy passes.  That was a result of horrible footwork.  These were not issues in his scouting when drafted.

It will do him well to spend a season on ice.  Watch film.  Nail down his mechanics.  Learn how to recognize and burn pressure.  There is always an open zone when pressure is brought.  Good QB's find that guy consistently.  Let the game slow down.  Learn how to get through your second and third reads faster.

I watched him at every home game.  His footwork was terrible.  When he had good footwork and kept his eyes downfield he was a much better QB.  When he got solid protection, he was a much better QB.  Surviving in this league when everyone knows you are helpless against pressure is really tough.  A solid offensive line and a coordinator who plays to your strengths would be nice too.

Zach wasn't ready.  The coaches knew it.  Reports are he was the worst QB in practice.  Mike White and even an aging Flacco proved that over and over.  Will he ever get there?  These are easy fixes for most.  If not, you cut him next off-season.

Stats also show the OL line was a complete joke .. almost got Glass Mike killed, and gave none of the QBs any sort of time to let plays develop and make accurate reads.

I agree with basically your entire post.

[Hal N of Provo]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Did you say that at the time?  Did anyone who liked Zach say that?

I don't think so, quite the contrary, you all demanded he start day 1, and demanded no competition be brought in to compete with him.

No, now they just say it was all MLF's fault, or Saleh's fault for starting him day 1, etc, etc, etc, i.e blame deflection, lol.

 

Better coaching and he would have done much better. The mistake wasn’t starting him.  It was hiring a bunch of inexperienced people who lacked the trait great coaches have - attention to detail.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Better coaching and he would have done much better. The mistake wasn’t starting him.  It was hiring a bunch of inexperienced people who lacked the trait great coaches have - attention to detail.  

"Hey Zach, maybe don't throw into triple coverage next time.  Also it would be nice if you could complete a screen pass".  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Better coaching and he would have done much better. The mistake wasn’t starting him.  It was hiring a bunch of inexperienced people who lacked the trait great coaches have - attention to detail.  

This is an impossible argument. I find it impossible to separate identification and development of the QB. MLF clearly wanted ZW, but also clearly had zero ability and interest in developing him.

Its impossible to know if a good competent coach who knows how to develop a QB, would have wanted ZW. 

I do completely agree that MLF was a disaster at developing him and bringing him along, but that also makes me question his judgement in calling for ZW. I don't think JD is anything close to a QB guru, MLF was the only person we had outside of scouts who could observe ZW. The scouts aparently thought he was a multi year project, MLF was the guy who wanted him

 

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Joe Douglas basically ignored the COVID level of competition and the pre-COVID tape.

ZW’s ‘19 game vs UW was a microcosm of how he’d look in the NFL.

Completely erased by a middling PAC-12 team that could actually rush the passer somewhat and make some plays on the ball with their secondary.

It’s all there.  The running backwards in the pocket (before getting sacked) trying to imitate Russ and the awful, panicked decision making when pressured.

If you look at any NFL QB's tape from college , you'll find at least one game where they look like you've just described. The fact its being used as evidence that ZW shouldn't have been drafted is rather comical. 

[Warfish]

 

1 hour ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Better coaching and he would have done much better. The mistake wasn’t starting him.  It was hiring a bunch of inexperienced people who lacked the trait great coaches have - attention to detail.  

The fact here is that you all were 100% wrong about picking Zach, 100% wrong about starting Zach day 1, and you're so far 100% wrong on Zach being any good as an NFL QB.

Just like the Darnold fans before this.  Notice we don't see too many of them pretending they were right anymore.

Like I've said, at least now we know what the Zach-first-fan excuse-train contingent at JN will be spouting all of 2023.

[Rangers9]

1 hour ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Better coaching and he would have done much better. The mistake wasn’t starting him.  It was hiring a bunch of inexperienced people who lacked the trait great coaches have - attention to detail.  

Nobody ruined Zach or any player. We heard the same when Mark Sanchez was here but his bad play was mostly on him. I’ve been actually supportive of Zach (in an unsupportive way) because he’s not as terrible as some posters contend. He won 5 of his first 7 starts and some fans won’t give him credit for anything. 

[Hal N of Provo]

Ok.  Nobody is ruining Jets QBs.  
 

The Jets are very unlucky.  It’s a coincidence.  

[T0mShane]

22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Better to be injury prone than a healthy scratch.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

"le dunk de la mort"

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Its not blaming ... its just a fact.   It doesn't matter if we knew it at that time ... it wasn't our job to know. you know whos job it was ??? MLF and Saleh's.  Its not deflecting anything ... its just stating a fact .. he was not ready to start, and i do not remember anyone saying anything about competition at all that year.   

The fact that this has become as decisive as Washington politics is pretty laughable.

 

[Jetsfan80]

20 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Ok.  Nobody is ruining Jets QBs.  
 

The Jets are very unlucky.  It’s a coincidence.  

The Jets have been historically poor at evaluating the QB position in the draft, yes.  Mike Maccagnan was the worst GM in NFL history.  Joe Douglas has been the best GM we've had in a long time but he, too, has some major flaws.  

If the Jets were ruining secretly good QBs, then we'd see former Jets QBs succeeding left and right. 

Mark Sanchez sucked at 4 different stops and his NFL career was done at the age of 28.   Christian Hackenberg failed miserably in the F-ing AAF.  Bryce Petty was a nobody.  Sam Darnold is getting replaced in Carolina as soon as the new regime is able to do so.  Captain Morgan has bounced around to several practice squads and will be out of the league soon.

The only "success stories" elsewhere at the QB position for the Jets in the last 20 years have been Kellen Clemens (lengthy career as a decent backup) and Geno Smith, who took 9 years to finally become a passable starter in the league after 2 other teams besides the Jets (Giants, Chargers) had him and moved on as well.

[Hex]

22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Better to be injury prone than a healthy scratch.  

Not necessarily. A healthy scratch still has potential for a future. An injury prone player, no matter how good, will never experience the success or consistency of somebody else.