#27TheDominator Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Where did I once mention ERA? Barton said the the best line-ups are in the AL East. I pointed out to him that the NL East had relatively the same amount of runs scored, to date this season. That being done without the DH. That makes it a hard argument to fathom that the most "intimidating" line-ups are AL East. That is all. Nothing about ERA. You can complain about everyone else, but you can't answer the question? Since you have an issue with ERA, use WHIP or whatever bull**** stat you want and tell me where you would expect more success if you were a pitcher? NL West or AL East? Answer that and you can go back to declaring all Yankee fans wrong all the time without any further obstruction from my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 You can complain about everyone else, but you can't answer the question? Since you have an issue with ERA, use WHIP or whatever bull**** stat you want and tell me where you would expect more success if you were a pitcher? NL West or AL East? Answer that and you can go back to declaring all Yankee fans wrong all the time without any further obstruction from my end. I really don't know what you are talking about. Please, show me where I have made any mention of ERA or WHIP or really pitching for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Not sure how the NL dominates the SS position...AL has Jeter, Young, Tejada, Guillen, Peralta and Cabrera. NL has Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Furcal, Hardy, Renteria. Pretty close, but an NL edge you can say to some degree. Ok. Agree to disagree. I gave the edge to the NL based on the top 5, which I think the NL has 3. Maybe dominates is not the best term, so we can agree with edge. Subjective all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I really don't know what you are talking about. Please, show me where I have made any mention of ERA or WHIP. According to you, Randy doesnt benefit leaving the AL East and moving to the NL west because both divisions are very close in runs scored. Now do you believe that or not? That is the question 27 is asking you. And obviously we're talking about whether Randy benefits in his stats (era etc etc), and not his home life, less media attention etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 According to you, Randy doesnt benefit leaving the AL East and moving to the NL west because both divisions are very close in runs scored. Now do you believe that or not? That is the question 27 is asking you. And obviously we're talking about whether Randy benefits in his stats (era etc etc), and not his home life, less media attention etc etc. You are putting words in my mouth. I made no mention of Randy Johnso. I picked up on YOUR comment on AL EAST having better LINE-UPS. We have discussed that ad nauseum. Does a pitcher stand a better statistical chance in the NL? of course. There is no DH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 You are putting words in my mouth. I made no mention of Randy Johnso. I picked up on YOUR comment on AL EAST having better LINE-UPS. We have discussed that ad nauseum. Does a pitcher stand a better statistical chance in the NL? of course. There is no DH doesnt everyone know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 You are putting words in my mouth. I made no mention of Randy Johnso. I picked up on YOUR comment on AL EAST having better LINE-UPS. We have discussed that ad nauseum. Does a pitcher stand a better statistical chance in the NL? of course. There is no DH Aooarently it doesnt matter though because both divisions are close in runs scored. Thats what you said, and what you tried to make me believe. "I'm not buying what you are selling" Apparently you dont remember this exchange earlier in the thread: imagine how good the Yankees pitching would be if we could shift over to the NL West Yes, because the American League East (with the notable exception of one team) is just sooooooo intimidating. You were wrong. The AL East is an extremely intimidating task for any pitcher to face. That is a fact. Then you went off course and said I dont care about a list of individual players, that doesnt scare me, you said, teams do. That was not the arguement however, you changed the subject. The arguement was not that the AL east had the best teams but it had the greatest amount of hitters and was a daunting task for any pitcher to face. THAT WAS THE ARGUEMENT, you strayed away from it however. Also, apparently you think the AL East is a sh#tty division because outside of the sox nobody has a winning record this year - but like I said earlier ( IT IS A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE), this is the same division with the same players that had 3 teams with more wins than the NL pennant winning Cardinals from last year. Its a great division, extremely tuff for any pitcher to face night in night out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Aooarently it doesnt matter though because both divisions are close in runs scored. Thats what you said, and what you tried to make me believe. "I'm not buying what you are selling" Apparently you dont remember this exchange earlier in the thread: You were wrong. The AL East is an extremely intimidating task for any pitcher to face. That is a fact. Then you went off course and said I dont care about a list of individual players, that doesnt scare me, you said, teams do. That was not the arguement however, you changed the subject. The arguement was not that the AL east had the best teams but it had the greatest amount of hitters and was a daunting task for any pitcher to face. THAT WAS THE ARGUEMENT, you strayed away from it however. Also, apparently you think the AL East is a sh#tty division because outside of the sox nobody has a winning record this year - but like I said earlier ( IT IS A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE), this is the same division with the same players that had 3 teams with more wins than the NL pennant winning Cardinals from last year. Its a great division, extremely tuff for any pitcher to face night in night out. Then, the NL East must be as tough for any pitcher to face, because thus far this season, teh NL East has kept pace with the AL East in runs scored, with teh detriment of the pitcher hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Then, the NL East must be as tough for any pitcher to face, because thus far this season, teh NL East has kept pace with the AL East in runs scored, with teh detriment of the pitcher hitting. just send him a picture next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Barton, I will grant you that taken as a whole, the Al East pitching is SLIGHTLY, again SLIGHTLY better than the nL East. But not to the tune of discounting the effect that the DH would have on supposedly propelling the AL East to what should be a disprportionate amount of runs scored. And they have not accomplished that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I really don't know what you are talking about. Please, show me where I have made any mention of ERA or WHIP or really pitching for that matter. I was talking about the point of the thread. You were nitpicking some statements Barton made. Obviously the main point - Johnson will have an easier time in the NL West than the AL east - got buried under an avalanche of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I was talking about the point of the thread. You were nitpicking some statements Barton made. Obviously the main point - Johnson will have an easier time in the NL West than the AL east - got buried under an avalanche of crap. Barton is a big boy, he can stand up for himself and did an adequate job here. I wouldn't call a point about the AL East having the best line-ups in baseball, and then actually debating that point nitpicking. Agreed, it was somewhat trivial to the title of the thread, but hey, that happens. Where you pounced on me about pitching, I will never know. And probably predfer not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Barton is a big boy, he can stand up for himself and did an adequate job here. I wouldn't calling a point about the AL East having the best line-ups in baseball, and then actually debating that point nitpicking. Agreed, it was somewhat trivial to the title of the thread, but hey, that happens. Where you pounced on me about pitching, I will never know. And probably predfer not. I didn't pounce on you about pitching. I just wanted to know where you weighed in on Randy Johnson in the NL v. the AL. Johnson is a pitcher. I don't have a problem with Barton defending himself or your debating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I didn't pounce on you about pitching. I just wanted to know where you weighed in on Randy Johnson in the NL v. the AL. Johnson is a pitcher. I don't have a problem with Barton defending himself or your debating him. As I stated, it benefits any pitcher to pitch in the NL vs the AL. The DH makes it so. What I can't comment on here, nor can anyone else, is the relative of health of Johnson this year in comparison to last year and the pain that he was in. He certainly is not the same pitcher he was in the NL 4 years ago, nor was that pitcher that what I saw with the Yankees. He has lost velocity and the slider is not near as devestating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 As I stated, it benefits any pitcher to pitch in the NL vs the AL. The DH makes it so. What I can't comment on here, nor can anyone else, is the relative of health of Johnson this year in comparison to last year and the pain that he was in. He certainly is not the same pitcher he was in the NL 4 years ago, nor was that pitcher that what I saw with the Yankees. He has lost velocity and the slider is not near as devestating. Decent points about his health. Scott, I'm not trying to argue with you. You did eventually state it benefits pitchers to play in the NL, but you didn't do it until after about my 4th post in the thread and when you did you seemed to be complaining that I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Cant we just all agree, regardless of whether the AL is better than the NL and viceversa, is that the lack of a DH allows pitchers to fare better in the NL, and the DH in the AL creates better offensive stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 This abortion of a trade is even worse than I thought it would be.I was right about RJ being nowhere near done and I was right about how awful the 4 pieces of garbage the yankees got are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsis Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 This abortion of a trade is even worse than I thought it would be. welcome back, I see your vacation has given you time to think your approach to posting over and change............ absolutely nothing. Anyway, good to have you back, hope your stay here is long and fruitful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 hope your stay here is long and fruitful. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 This abortion of a trade is even worse than I thought it would be.I was right about RJ being nowhere near done and I was right about how awful the 4 pieces of garbage the yankees got are. I see the 30-day ban taught you nothing about the "I'm always right" approach being a poor one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I see the 30-day ban taught you nothing about the "I'm always right" approach being a poor one. 1. I was right and since no one else is gonna give me credit I'll give it to myself. 2. I got banned because I lost my temper and said something I shouldn't have to someone who was baiting me, not because of my posting approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 1. I was right and since no one else is gonna give me credit I'll give it to myself. 2. I got banned because I lost my temper and said something I shouldn't have to someone who was baiting me, not because of my posting approach. 1) Striving to "get credit" for things in life is a shallow way to live. I hope that isn't how you go about your day in real life, because you will always be disappointed. 2) Sure, put the blame external to yourself. That makes sense, except you were CONSTANTLY getting into arguments and making personal attacks. Sometimes you have to look at the common denominator. For a better clue of who that was, please take a look in the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 1) Striving to "get credit" for things in life is a shallow way to live. I hope that isn't how you go about your day in real life, because you will always be disappointed. 2) Sure, put the blame external to yourself. That makes sense, except you were CONSTANTLY getting into arguments and making personal attacks. Sometimes you have to look at the common denominator. For a better clue of who that was, please take a look in the mirror. Listen I get bashed all the time like i'm some kind of moron and I was the ONLY person who was against this trade on this board. I predicted exactly what was going to happen and everyone called me insane. I'm going to point out the fact that i was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 It remains to be seen what Ohlendorf and the SS become, but we know Vizcaino stinks (or he's injured and pitching thru it, but he I am 99% sure he just sucks). Getting rid of that loser Randy was a good move to just get the salary off our hands, which is allowing us to pick up the Rocket, but we prob should have swapped Randy for Linebrink and called it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 It remains to be seen what Ohlendorf and the SS become, but we know Vizcaino stinks (or he's injured and pitching thru it, but he I am 99% sure he just sucks). Getting rid of that loser Randy was a good move to just get the salary off our hands, which is allowing us to pick up the Rocket, but we prob should have swapped Randy for Linebrink and called it a day. Ohlendorf is a 25 year old with a 1:1 k/bb ratio in AAA I wouldn't get my hopes up for him and Gonzalez will never be anything more than a defensive replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Complaining about what you got in a salary dump is kind of silly. It's like saying the Yanks "stole" all those guys they traded for because teams wanted to dump their salaries. Money matters too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Complaining about what you got in a salary dump is kind of silly. It's like saying the Yanks "stole" all those guys they traded for because teams wanted to dump their salaries. Money matters too. I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of us are smart enough to understand that. RJ was abysmal in the AL East and is far better off in the the NL. I even said at the time of the trade that I wouldn't be shocked if RJ won 15-20 games and saw his ERA drop from 5+ to the 3-4 range. RJ vs. the AL East last season Bos 7.17 ERA Bal 4.61 ERA Tor 14.04 ERA TB 9.00 ERA and his 11.45 vs the Mets didn't help his case all that much either...god I'd almost forgotten just how bad he was last year. Great job by the FO finding a team willing to pick up his 17 mil salary and injury/age issues. yeah, we were crazy to let him go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Complaining about what you got in a salary dump is kind of silly. It's like saying the Yanks "stole" all those guys they traded for because teams wanted to dump their salaries. Money matters too. Thats a complete misnomer. Teams like the Marlins or Indians have dumped salary and brought back good prospects to build on for the future. There was NO REASON to trade a pitcher who still had something left for nothing. The problem is that the yankees FO completely misjudged the talent they were getting. (As I said at the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Thats a complete misnomer. Teams like the Marlins or Indians have dumped salary and brought back good prospects to build on for the future. There was NO REASON to trade a pitcher who still had something left for nothing. The problem is that the yankees FO completely misjudged the talent they were getting. (As I said at the time) I can think of seventeen million reasons. That's almost as many reasons as TO has to live. He's old and has had injury problems. They could have gotten better prospects if they had chosen to take on some of his salary. It was a salary dump. I know you aren't used to the Yanks doing it, but they did. If he were a FA how many teams would have signed him to that deal? He's pitching well now, but I wouldn't want to rely on an old guy with a bad back. I'll still never get over Wells quitting in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I can think of seventeen million reasons. That's almost as many reasons as TO has to live. He's old and has had injury problems. They could have gotten better prospects if they had chosen to take on some of his salary. It was a salary dump. I know you aren't used to the Yanks doing it, but they did. If he were a FA how many teams would have signed him to that deal? He's pitching well now, but I wouldn't want to rely on an old guy with a bad back. I'll still never get over Wells quitting in the series. If he was a FA I'm SURE he would've gotten offers from many teams. Teams love to have guys on short term deals. I'm sorry. "We're dumping salary" is NOT an excuse for trading players for nothing. The bottom line is that the yankees failed in picking the right players to get back in the trade and this isn't the first time this FO has failed in player evaluation. Cashman really thought the players he was getting had some value and thats one of the reason's he's gonna lose his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I hear Mike's opinion, and I also hear all those who disagree with him. I am in the "disagree with him" camp. But I also feel that this deal can't be judged based on what has happened so far. Let's see how this plays out with teh kids we got. Let's see if they make the Yankees, or are used in trades for another piece, like the Abreu deal from last year. Bottom line: This deal can not be finalized in the Court of Opinion until at least after 2008, and probably later. But it did pay immediate $$$$$$$ dividends for the Yankees in terms of the direction they wanted to go in 2007 (Clemens vs. Randy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsis Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I'm proud no one has made a joke about his name so far, unless I missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I hear Mike's opinion, and I also hear all those who disagree with him. I am in the "disagree with him" camp. But I also feel that this deal can't be judged based on what has happened so far. Let's see how this plays out with teh kids we got. Let's see if they make the Yankees, or are used in trades for another piece, like the Abreu deal from last year. Bottom line: This deal can not be finalized in the Court of Opinion until at least after 2008, and probably later. But it did pay immediate $$$$$$$ dividends for the Yankees in terms of the direction they wanted to go in 2007 (Clemens vs. Randy). Who is going to get all that much better? The only one who has a chance to do that is Ohlendorf and those chances are very slim as he gets older and doesn't get more effective. He's never been all that effective at any point in his career. As I said before the season started, Clemens and Johnson would've put up Similar numbers with the yankees this year, they just would've gotten 7 extra starts from Johnson instead of garbage like Matt DeSalvo and Igawa and mediocre pitchers Karstens or Rasner. Those 7 games might be the difference between the division/WC and sitting home. The Money they are paying Igawa and the difference between the Clemens and RJ contracts is just money thrown away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I hear Mike's opinion, and I also hear all those who disagree with him. I am in the "disagree with him" camp. But I also feel that this deal can't be judged based on what has happened so far. Let's see how this plays out with teh kids we got. Let's see if they make the Yankees, or are used in trades for another piece, like the Abreu deal from last year. Bottom line: This deal can not be finalized in the Court of Opinion until at least after 2008, and probably later. But it did pay immediate $$$$$$$ dividends for the Yankees in terms of the direction they wanted to go in 2007 (Clemens vs. Randy).quote You don't know that was the direction as they had no sure inclination that Roger was coming back. Clemens can't be deemed anything yet. The better 2007 direction would have been Randy vs Igawa, Pavano, Moose. Igawa's contract alone would have brought Clemens back for 2 seasons....pro rated of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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