Lil Bit Special Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Do you Yankee haters need some more lotion? Tissues? I could run to the store. Can't do anything about the cramps in your hands, though. Sorry. Pardon the interruption. Resume your fap, fap, fapping. What does this story have to do with Yankee haters? Im confused... Ive yet to see any fapping in this thread... How about this... just say Arod cheated and is a liar and his career has been forever tainted because of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 So is A-Rod just going to wait for spring training to respond to this or what? He'll respond when his lawyer tells him its ok. Otherwise he'll just come off looking like an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 He'll respond when his lawyer tells him its ok. Otherwise he'll just come off looking like an idiot. Can't say I disagree with that... he'll just say something stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 How about this... just say Arod cheated and is a liar and his career has been forever tainted because of this... It's hard for me to go along with that, I simply don't believe steroids played a big role in A-Rod's career. Unless he started taking steroids in high school. Remember the Mariners took him #1 overall. He was drafted in '93, and hit 36 home runs in his 1st full season in the majors. The reason most people didn't believe A-Rod did steroids is because he was this good, pretty much from the get go. He didn't go from really good to amazing like Bonds did, or went from a declining player to a star player again like McGwire did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Here's a good read from Rob Neyer. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3891343&name=Neyer_Rob However it shakes out, A-Rod still a great player Saturday, February 7, 2009 | Feedback | Print Entry Today -- Feb. 7, 2009 -- a date which will live in infamy … At least for Alex Rodriguez. His image, so obviously, so often clumsily constructed, has been shattered into a million tiny pieces. You could say whatever you wanted about his astronomical salaries and his postseason struggles and his "Single White Female" relationship with Derek Jeter, but you couldn't argue that he wasn't perhaps the most talented baseball player on the planet. Until now, perhaps. Now, some of the pundits will argue that A-Rod wasn't so great after all; and further, that even if he was a great player, his (alleged) cheating should taint his entire legacy and perhaps even keep him out of the Hall of Fame. But then there's this … I'm reading Tom Verducci's new book, and flagging passages worth returning to later. As you've no doubt heard, most of the material about Alex Rodriguez isn't particularly flattering. I've flagged most of those parts. But I also flagged this one: Rodriguez did impress his teammates with a relentless work ethic. They found him to be the baseball equivalent of a gym rat. He knew everything going on around baseball and he never stopped working. One night in 2007 he showed up in the dugout 10 minutes before the first pitch with blood dripping from his hands and knees. "What the hell happened to you?" somebody asked. I hope Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat. If we do find out that he cheated, I will wish that he hadn't. But whatever happens, I'm not going to change my opinion that he's a great baseball player. Like many of the greatest players, he'll do whatever it takes to be the best player he can be. For a stretch of five or 10 years -- and yes, perhaps even today still -- being the best player could have meant cheating. Maybe the cheaters were wrong; that's the direction in which I lean, probably because I've got a streak of the moralist in me. But I will not sit idly while great athletes looking for an edge -- not all that different from the many generations before them -- are demonized by the high priests of baseball opinion. I will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Not sure why I should justify myself to you, but I'll do it anyways, how am I changing my tune right now? My stand on steroids hasn't' changed in a while now. Unless you want to be miserable old ****s or Yankee haters, like you come across as, than you must be a cynical when it comes to steroids and baseball. By the way, do you stalk me or something? No. What I am saying is while many players use, just because ANOTHER high profile Yankee player gets caught does not mean you can say everyone is using as a attempt to make light of it or quote Rob Neyer as if that makes it ok to cheat. No hate for Yankees just the chest thumper fans during good times who feel any negative discussion on them is off topic in instances like this. If you can't handle non Yankee fan opinions maybe going back to JI's circle jerk is best for you. If you can, then this board is a great place to talk baseball with VARIOUS fans opinion allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 No. What I am saying is while many players use, just because ANOTHER high profile Yankee player gets caught does not mean you can say everyone is using as a attempt to make light of it or quote Rob Neyer as if that makes it ok to cheat. No hate for Yankees just the chest thumper fans during good times who feel any negative discussion on them is off topic in instances like this. If you can't handle non Yankee fan opinions maybe going back to JI's circle jerk is best for you. If you can, then this board is a great place to talk baseball with VARIOUS fans opinion allowed. :rl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aten Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Not to perpetuate the ARod as victim narrative or anything, but this really is bull****. Two days ago I figured there was about a 50/50 shot he was dirty. In light of the story...I figure there's a 50/50 shot he's dirty. Apparently I'm the only one. When Bonds was outed, there were people that dismissed it as a racist witch hunt. McNamee got more heat than Clemens right up until the hearing removed any doubt as to which of them was lying. There were even people who uncritically accepted McGwire's disinclination to 'talk about the past.' So what happens when Selena Roberts, who's pimping a book and who at the very least has a demonstrated history of getting spectacularly snowed by confidential sources (and let's face it, that's a pretty ****ing charitable way of putting the Duke lacrosse debacle), fingers ARod? It is immediately and universally accepted as fact. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 It's hard for me to go along with that, I simply don't believe steroids played a big role in A-Rod's career. Unless he started taking steroids in high school. Remember the Mariners took him #1 overall. He was drafted in '93, and hit 36 home runs in his 1st full season in the majors. The reason most people didn't believe A-Rod did steroids is because he was this good, pretty much from the get go. He didn't go from really good to amazing like Bonds did, or went from a declining player to a star player again like McGwire did. we'll never know if they played a big part or not. We dont know if he used them in his early stages of his career and impact they had. What is known is he did steroids. He cheated. He lied about his cheating. And his career will forever be tainted. Since he was a great player to begin with, its even stupider that he used them. Too bad they dont have a drug that helps you hit in the clutch. I'd even help pay for him to use that drug! I have no sympathy for the guy. In my eyes he's no better than any other player who used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 we'll never know if they played a big part or not. We dont know if he used them in his early stages of his career and impact they had. What is known is he did steroids. He cheated. He lied about his cheating. And his career will forever be tainted. Since he was a great player to begin with, its even stupider that he used them. Too bad they dont have a drug that helps you hit in the clutch. I'd even help pay for him to use that drug! I have no sympathy for the guy. In my eyes he's no better than any other player who used them. Thats pretty f'in funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Not to perpetuate the ARod as victim narrative or anything, but this really is bull****. Two days ago I figured there was about a 50/50 shot he was dirty. In light of the story...I figure there's a 50/50 shot he's dirty. Apparently I'm the only one. When Bonds was outed, there were people that dismissed it as a racist witch hunt. McNamee got more heat than Clemens right up until the hearing removed any doubt as to which of them was lying. There were even people who uncritically accepted McGwire's disinclination to 'talk about the past.' So what happens when Selena Roberts, who's pimping a book and who at the very least has a demonstrated history of getting spectacularly snowed by confidential sources (and let's face it, that's a pretty ****ing charitable way of putting the Duke lacrosse debacle), fingers ARod? It is immediately and universally accepted as fact. Why? Selena Roberts has written extensively about Arod, and mostly in a bad light. She does have a reason to have her name attached to this. However, there seems to be truth to it. If there wasnt, it would have come out very quickly that he wasnt on the list. Does her involvement bring some question to it? Yes. Does it make it false? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Not to perpetuate the ARod as victim narrative or anything, but this really is bull****. Two days ago I figured there was about a 50/50 shot he was dirty. In light of the story...I figure there's a 50/50 shot he's dirty. Apparently I'm the only one. When Bonds was outed, there were people that dismissed it as a racist witch hunt. McNamee got more heat than Clemens right up until the hearing removed any doubt as to which of them was lying. There were even people who uncritically accepted McGwire's disinclination to 'talk about the past.' So what happens when Selena Roberts, who's pimping a book and who at the very least has a demonstrated history of getting spectacularly snowed by confidential sources (and let's face it, that's a pretty ****ing charitable way of putting the Duke lacrosse debacle), fingers ARod? It is immediately and universally accepted as fact. Why? Very true but if one is clean and these allegations are made about him I would think a denial statement would have been given when asked. I would imagine that the FED's would investigate the leak as the test results were/are sealed. Unfortunately in todays environment once a player is named he is labeled as guilty no matter how small the facts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 No. What I am saying is while many players use, just because ANOTHER high profile Yankee player gets caught does not mean you can say everyone is using as a attempt to make light of it or quote Rob Neyer as if that makes it ok to cheat. No hate for Yankees just the chest thumper fans during good times who feel any negative discussion on them is off topic in instances like this. If you can't handle non Yankee fan opinions maybe going back to JI's circle jerk is best for you. If you can, then this board is a great place to talk baseball with VARIOUS fans opinion allowed. Few things.. For the record, no one is saying Alex Rodriguez used steroids as a Yankee, not that it really matters. Am I not aloud to challenge other people's opinion? Did I miss something that said you are the voice of JN baseball forum? Steroids is not solely a Yankee problem, no matter how you spin it. Your Mes had 17 players in the Mitchell Report, and a towell boy selling steroids and other drugs out of your clubhouse. And for the record, he was in that clubhouse during the Mets championship run in 1986. So you can bring up the 90's all you want, but every team in baseball has some taint in this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Few things.. For the record, no one is saying Alex Rodriguez used steroids as a Yankee, not that it really matters. Am I not aloud to challenge other people's opinion? Did I miss something that said you are the voice of JN baseball forum? Steroids is not solely a Yankee problem, no matter how you spin it. Your Mes had 17 players in the Mitchell Report, and a towell boy selling steroids and other drugs out of your clubhouse. And for the record, he was in that clubhouse during the Mets championship run in 1986. So you can bring up the 90's all you want, but every team in baseball has some taint in this era. No it doesn't matter but it is curious that the article states he had to be forewarned of his Sept 2004 upcoming test. Read into that as you will. "According to the 2007 Mitchell Report on steroid use in baseball, in September 2004, Gene Orza, the chief operating officer of the players' union, violated an agreement with MLB by tipping off a player (not named in the report) about an upcoming, supposedly unannounced drug test. Three major league players who spoke to SI said that Rodriguez was also tipped by Orza in early September 2004 that he would be tested later that month. Rodriguez declined to respond on Thursday when asked about the warning Orza provided him." Also, no Mets fans that I have seen have ever argued, debated, made light of or tried to deny anytime a Met player was named. Finally, yes you are allowed to challenge opinions but please take down the one way street sign you are carrying when it comes to that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 No it doesn't matter but it is curious that the article states he had to be forewarned of his Sept 2004 upcoming test. Read into that as you will. "According to the 2007 Mitchell Report on steroid use in baseball, in September 2004, Gene Orza, the chief operating officer of the players' union, violated an agreement with MLB by tipping off a player (not named in the report) about an upcoming, supposedly unannounced drug test. Three major league players who spoke to SI said that Rodriguez was also tipped by Orza in early September 2004 that he would be tested later that month. Rodriguez declined to respond on Thursday when asked about the warning Orza provided him." Also, no Mets fans that I have seen have ever argued, debated, made light of or tried to deny anytime a Met player was named. Finally, yes you are allowed to challenge opinions but please take down the one way street sign you are carrying when it comes to that subject. In light of yesterdays news, there are 2 major issues in my opinion. You named one of them. It's becoming pretty obvious MLBPA is warning it's players, maybe just it's big stars before they are tested. Who is to say they didn't warn A-Rod, Pujols, or whoever since the PED policy was put in place after 2003. The other issue is obviously why A-Rods named was leaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aten Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Very true but if one is clean and these allegations are made about him I would think a denial statement would have been given when asked. You want a denial. Others want him to demonstrate his innocence by suing for defamation. Problem is the two are mutually exclusive because if he's contemplating the latter the first thing the lawyer is gonna tell him is to keep his trap shut. He can't win, but hey, that's the idea, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsis Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 No. What I am saying is while many players use, just because ANOTHER high profile Yankee player gets caught does not mean you can say everyone is using as a attempt to make light of it or quote Rob Neyer as if that makes it ok to cheat. No hate for Yankees just the chest thumper fans during good times who feel any negative discussion on them is off topic in instances like this. If you can't handle non Yankee fan opinions maybe going back to JI's circle jerk is best for you. If you can, then this board is a great place to talk baseball with VARIOUS fans opinion allowed. You should go back to JI. You drama queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The facts are neckdemon is that steroids is a baseball problem, not just a Yankee problem, no matter how much you wish it was. Obviously the Rangers and Orioles had large problems, in there clubhouses, teams the Yankees had to beat to get to some of those World Series, so excuse if I think the whole "90's championships are tainted" non sense. 17 players showed up on the Mitchell Report who played for the Mets.. a guy sold steroids out of your clubhouse. All we have right now are 3 names who have dropped the dime on players. McNamee, Rodomski, and Canseco. We haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg. i'm just busting balls......you should know that i like to do this by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 It's hard for me to go along with that, I simply don't believe steroids played a big role in A-Rod's career. Unless he started taking steroids in high school. Remember the Mariners took him #1 overall. He was drafted in '93, and hit 36 home runs in his 1st full season in the majors. The reason most people didn't believe A-Rod did steroids is because he was this good, pretty much from the get go. He didn't go from really good to amazing like Bonds did, or went from a declining player to a star player again like McGwire did. if you don't go along with a-rod being a cheater then you certainly can't hold steroids against bonds either. bonds was a pretty darn great player before he "supposedly" took his steroids. you can't conveniently pick who you think the steroids helped and didn't help.....i mean i guess you can, but it just invalidates your opinion then. imo, anyone who did steroids is a fraud. and i don't buy that "i only did it once or twice crap". caught doing steroids = invalidtaed cheater. rodriguez just joined that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 If you can't handle non Yankee fan opinions maybe going back to JI's circle jerk is best for you. If you can, then this board is a great place to talk baseball with VARIOUS fans opinion allowed. You are better than that. I'm just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Monzino Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 if you don't go along with a-rod being a cheater then you certainly can't hold steroids against bonds either. bonds was a pretty darn great player before he "supposedly" took his steroids. you can't conveniently pick who you think the steroids helped and didn't help.....i mean i guess you can, but it just invalidates your opinion then. imo, anyone who did steroids is a fraud. and i don't buy that "i only did it once or twice crap". caught doing steroids = invalidtaed cheater. rodriguez just joined that list. Bro, I'm not defending ARod here, but Bonds went from a "very good" player who might hit 30-40 homers, to a guy who had some of the single greatest seasons of all time by hitting 70+ homers, a .600 OBP and slugging .860. Those are unheard of numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 If you look at the height of the Steroid era (1993-2003), statistics on a whole averaged 20-25% greater than their prior statistical norms. It is not a great measuring device, but can be used in generalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 You are better than that. I'm just saying. You're right....my apologies to Tyler. I am just not a big fan of the double standards being applied when a Yankee player is outed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 if you don't go along with a-rod being a cheater then you certainly can't hold steroids against bonds either. bonds was a pretty darn great player before he "supposedly" took his steroids. you can't conveniently pick who you think the steroids helped and didn't help.....i mean i guess you can, but it just invalidates your opinion then. imo, anyone who did steroids is a fraud. and i don't buy that "i only did it once or twice crap". caught doing steroids = invalidtaed cheater. rodriguez just joined that list. Sorry I don't think everyone is in the same boat, A-Rods numbers never skyrocketed like Bonds numbers did. Sure there all stupid, and deserve all the criticism they get. But I'd prefer to know the details. When they did it, how long they did it, and how much it actually effected them. Then I can make an accurate judgement. I don't like this whole witch hunt.. on all these guys. They made mistakes, but I don't think these guys should be held out of the Hall of Fame for this. Bonds was a Hall of Famer way before he took steroids, and so was A-Rod and Clemens. McGwire.. well he's a different story, I don't think he was a Hall of Famer before he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Sorry I don't think everyone is in the same boat, A-Rods numbers never skyrocketed like Bonds numbers did. Sure there all stupid, and deserve all the criticism they get. But I'd prefer to know the details. When they did it, how long they did it, and how much it actually effected them. Then I can make an accurate judgement. Unless they were tested from the day they were drafted up until today, that's something we'll never know and any player caught will deny it or "admit" to having used a couple of times, but never regularly and it'll be something along the lines of "I gave it a shot, but I didn't really notice any difference in my performance so I figured it wasn't worth it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Unless they were tested from the day they were drafted up until today, that's something we'll never know and any player caught will deny it or "admit" to having used a couple of times, but never regularly and it'll be something along the lines of "I gave it a shot, but I didn't really notice any difference in my performance so I figured it wasn't worth it" A-Rod has the luxury in saying he hit 36 homer runs in his first full year in the majors, so unless he's a complete sham, and has been using performance enhancement drugs since he came into league, than it's really hard to say steroids helped him. He's also been tested since 2003 on a regular basis. And has put up huge numbers. Oh well, lets wait and see what he has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Sorry I don't think everyone is in the same boat, A-Rods numbers never skyrocketed like Bonds numbers did. Sure there all stupid, and deserve all the criticism they get. But I'd prefer to know the details. When they did it, how long they did it, and how much it actually effected them. Then I can make an accurate judgement. I don't like this whole witch hunt.. on all these guys. They made mistakes, but I don't think these guys should be held out of the Hall of Fame for this. Bonds was a Hall of Famer way before he took steroids, and so was A-Rod and Clemens. McGwire.. well he's a different story, I don't think he was a Hall of Famer before he did. You can't be so selective as to necessarily know WHEN these guys did in fact use. If you are caught onse, unfortunately, that casts doubt over a career. That is the stigma standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A-Rod has the luxury in saying he hit 36 homer runs in his first full year in the majors, so unless he's a complete sham, and has been using performance enhancement drugs since he came into league, than it's really hard to say steroids helped him. He's also been tested since 2003 on a regular basis. And has put up huge numbers. Oh well, lets wait and see what he has to say. It really doesn't matter what he has to say now, I think. Like Torre said in his book, A-rod cares about his legacy and now that is all ruined. Whatever he does now, he's going to be judged differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 You can't be so selective as to necessarily know WHEN these guys did in fact use. If you are caught onse, unfortunately, that casts doubt over a career. That is the stigma standard. Yes I can, and I will... I'm not interested in demonizing these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A-Rod has the luxury in saying he hit 36 homer runs in his first full year in the majors, so unless he's a complete sham, and has been using performance enhancement drugs since he came into league, than it's really hard to say steroids helped him. He's also been tested since 2003 on a regular basis. And has put up huge numbers. Oh well, lets wait and see what he has to say. McGuire had the luxury of being able to say he hit 49 HR's his rookie year, too bad he wasn't there to talk about the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 It really doesn't matter what he has to say now, I think. Like Torre said in his book, A-rod cares about his legacy and now that is all ruined. Whatever he does now, he's going to be judged differently. A-Rod has a very big chunk of his career ahead of him. What if he goes out there and puts up his normal career numbers the next 9 years? Wins a few MVPS, then what? A-Rod isn't at the end of his career like Bonds or Clemens or McGwire. Time heals everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A-Rod has a very big chunk of his career ahead of him. What if he goes out there and puts up his normal career numbers the next 9 years? Wins a few MVPS, then what? Then people will wonder what illegal methods he used to achieve those numbers. The dopers will always be ahead of the testers and if he was willing to do it once, he'd sure as hell be willing to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 You can't be so selective as to necessarily know WHEN these guys did in fact use. If you are caught onse, unfortunately, that casts doubt over a career. That is the stigma standard. 100% agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A-Rod has a very big chunk of his career ahead of him. What if he goes out there and puts up his normal career numbers the next 9 years? Wins a few MVPS, then what? He will always be known as a guy who cheated. There is no way to know when he started and if and when he stopped. That's just the reality of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A-Rod has a very big chunk of his career ahead of him. What if he goes out there and puts up his normal career numbers the next 9 years? Wins a few MVPS, then what? A-Rod isn't at the end of his career like Bonds or Clemens or McGwire. Time heals everything. You are speaking to "what if's". Purported Fact-A-Rod used in 2003. Fact-It was one of his best years with an MVP "What if" he hits .280 or teh rest of his career with 28 homers and 90RBI? Does that mean ALL of teh prior years were "roid' years? Of course not. But we can't re-visit history and guess. That is what happens when you taint yourself. The entire record is tainted, not just selective entries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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