Mafia Game 3 - Not All in the Family..

[slats]

I'll explain it one more time.

He's either a vigilante who at this point serves us no good. He's already killed one of us.

I think he's scum.

He and his buddies can kill one of us at night. But that'd damn him. No, rather the mafia would just take no action since we already lynched one of our own. Let him come back and say "OH I TRIED TO SHOOT VIC BUT HE'S SCUM I GOT BLOCKED, AGAIN" You lynch me, I flip innocent, and boom... we're down 2, they can NK that night, get 3 while we got zero and maybe then he'll die. By that time we'd be down to 11 players... with maybe 2-3 of mafia left... and that's a lot.

That reads more like an argument to keep him around. As long as he's alive, either he handcuffs the scums action or he is scum and they pull no night moves in an effort to protect him.

But that's not what I'm advocating.

We decide who he's to kill tonight, and see what happens. If we guess right, and he kills scum, he's looking about as innocent as can be (unless he's a SK - this game hurts my head).

Any other result, I don't see him surviving day three.

If he kills who we tell him to kill, and that person's innocent, then he's either scum or just too dangerous to keep around no matter who controls his powers.

No action occurs, and that could be a scum plot, too.

I think by tomorrow, if we don't have something of a definitive positive answer on him, he's dead.

I just don't see the rush on him.

[Vicious89x]

Being wrong once doesn't necessitate being wrong on the next.

And you're only insulting yourself. No one else is calling you a mindless robot.

I'm still interested in your thoughts on Doggin's posts about killing SMC at night to save himself, when clearly, by rule, that is wrong. And no one knows the rules more than doggin.

Here's my response to that:

Think of it in scum shoes... for me if I know someone can kill me and my mafia buds... I take him out, RIGHT AWAY. I dont' like the idea of threats around... hell I'm playing like that as a townie.

If I was mafia and I knew SMC was a vigilante I'd kill him right away. Keeping him alive and him not getting his NK only means that that action was blocked so he would know who he targeted is mafia and he'd go to the day time screaming for the person to be killed.

Because if I went to the day and tried getting him killed and he flipped innocent I know the town would then, lynch me the next day. If I killed him right away and I died my mafia brethren can move the game along to mislead the town to the next person.

Hell I'd ESPECIALLY have him killed right away why??? Cause the town, this town, lost it's doctor... no one else will be protected, and me and my buds can pick you off every night.

[slats]

Doggin was my #1 suspect to begin day two. I'll have no problem casting my vote for him again. I just want to know if it's the family's intention to whack him before his return from Shabbos. Is that the smart play? Killing Norway before he got a chance to speak wasn't.

[ZachEY]

Recheck posts:

1346

1360

1372

1377

And let me know your thoughts.

Reposting for the new page. Anyone with thoughts on not knowing this rule, especially after he condemns people like SMC for not knowing what WIFOM means?

[JustInFudge]

Holy **** this game is moving.

I need to read up and I will share my thoughts. Actually had some work to do this afternoon.

[Doggin94it]

To take a chance. It already worked once in a game on this board.

If that's what the mafia did, you know I'm not mafia. I'd never - never, ever, ever - surrender a sure kill to take out a player I don't have absolute confirmation is the finder.

unless they were setting him up as a potential scum day kill target. How's that for nuts?

Why bother, when killing him gets the same result, and gives "us" the chance to lynch someone else.

unless you knew that he'd target you, and you'd be hit, so you needed to prevent that from happening. So, you got him blocked, and saved yourself in the processes, proceeding to try to kill him during the day.

Which, if he's innocent, leads to my death anyway. Stupid play with no edge, all hinging on me "knowing" he'd target me.

Nope. I think you did what's bolded above. To protect yourself from SMC, who, if you killed him, would still get the hit on you too.

What an incredibly stupid play that would have been.

So, your theory is that, as mafia, I sacrificed my kill night 1 (by aiming at a likely protected target), and sacrificed my kill night 2 . . . yeah, that sounds like something I would do

Or, conversely, SMC is lying scum who is acting scummy because he's lying scum.

[Doggin94it]

How about this?

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=196221

[Doggin94it]

If he is what he says he is, couldn't keeping him alive be to our advantage, if we decide who he targets? He would also soak up a mafia NK. If he's innocent, it would be better for them to use a NK on him than for us to use a lynch on him.

If he's innocent, the mafia should be leaving him alive to help winnow down the town

[Doggin94it]

There's only one defense I have for Doggin.

He's a #'s guy. If he was scum he wouldn't give himself up to get a guy who is practically helping them. To me that's too big of a stretch. He goes down the mafia is now 2 down, that's huge for them.

Not to mention sacrificing not 1 but 2 night kills to "take a chance"

[slats]

Here's my response to that:

Think of it in scum shoes... for me if I know someone can kill me and my mafia buds... I take him out, RIGHT AWAY. I dont' like the idea of threats around... hell I'm playing like that as a townie.

If I was mafia and I knew SMC was a vigilante I'd kill him right away. Keeping him alive and him not getting his NK only means that that action was blocked so he would know who he targeted is mafia and he'd go to the day time screaming for the person to be killed.

Because if I went to the day and tried getting him killed and he flipped innocent I know the town would then, lynch me the next day. If I killed him right away and I died my mafia brethren can move the game along to mislead the town to the next person.

Hell I'd ESPECIALLY have him killed right away why??? Cause the town, this town, lost it's doctor... no one else will be protected, and me and my buds can pick you off every night.

That's not an answer to Doggin's suggestion that he could've whacked SMC to save himself when the rules clearly say they'd both die.

[SMC]

That's not an answer to Doggin's suggestion that he could've whacked SMC to save himself when the rules clearly say they'd both die.

Troubling, isn't it?

[Doggin94it]

But that still doesn't explain why you want me whacked.

Ergo, your problem. I tried to NK you last night. It didn't work.

Why?

Wow, I don't kno-

Oh yeah, because you are lying scum. It didn't "not work" - it never happened

[Vicious89x]

That's not an answer to Doggin's suggestion that he could've whacked SMC to save himself when the rules clearly say they'd both die.

I'm saying I agree with Doggin. If I'm mafia and I know you're gonna kill me... I'm not gonna keep you around, I'll die and you're done and the town is down a doctor and a vigilante.

[Doggin94it]

Based on this:

vote Doggin94it

Doggin knows damn well that if a serial killer were to attack him, and he attacked the serial killer back, they would BOTH be dead. In this case, he's saying that killing SMC last night would protect him. He knows it, so I think he's lying. He says lynch all liars.

Wait, is SMC a serial, or a townie?

Something you want to tell us?

[ZachEY]

Here's my response to that:

Think of it in scum shoes... for me if I know someone can kill me and my mafia buds... I take him out, RIGHT AWAY. I dont' like the idea of threats around... hell I'm playing like that as a townie.

If I was mafia and I knew SMC was a vigilante I'd kill him right away. Keeping him alive and him not getting his NK only means that that action was blocked so he would know who he targeted is mafia and he'd go to the day time screaming for the person to be killed.

Because if I went to the day and tried getting him killed and he flipped innocent I know the town would then, lynch me the next day. If I killed him right away and I died my mafia brethren can move the game along to mislead the town to the next person.

Hell I'd ESPECIALLY have him killed right away why??? Cause the town, this town, lost it's doctor... no one else will be protected, and me and my buds can pick you off every night.

But what if you were confident, as I'm sure Doggin was, that SMC was coming for you. Then, you'd take him out, but you'd be sacrificing yourself to do it.

So yes, Doggin probably knows he's going to get lynched. But, he gets to live all through today, all through tonight, and then fight his hardest to propose another potential lynch target.

How would he have done that? By saying he was a killer, and we needed him gone. He couln't have known he was fighting for the good side, because he killed SMC. Would it work, who knows? And probably not. But, in the same token, it's no chance of survival vs some chance of survival.

This is about longevity and a prayer for Doggin. Little more IMO.

[ZachEY]

Wait, is SMC a serial, or a townie?

Something you want to tell us?

Serial Killer/Vigilante... same powers... you're going semantics on me now?

[Doggin94it]

I disagree.

If SMC's telling the truth, keeping him alive for the day handcuffs the scum tonight. We have him make public who he's killing tonight (or tell him who to whack), and see what the morning brings. If the guy we choose is scum and dies, we know he's true blue (unless I'm missing another possiblility).

But that's the only way we'll know. Any other outcome, and he's most likely toast in day three. Even if we have another no action night.

and if the guy you choose is the finder?

I mean even just a random townie would suck - gives the mafia 2 kills instead of 1 - but what if you guys manage to choose the finder (you know, the way you chose the doc?)

This is the worst plan in the history of planning

[slats]

I'm saying I agree with Doggin. If I'm mafia and I know you're gonna kill me... I'm not gonna keep you around, I'll die and you're done and the town is down a doctor and a vigilante.

I guess it's a matter of style. I'd probably block to save my ass, then try to get him lynched the next day. They're already down one. He lets SMC kill him one for one, and the scum is hurting in the numbers game. Doggin was on SMC the previous day. It'd be completely consistent to go after him the next. Even easier once EY's train killed the lawyer instead of another scum. EY was SMC's defender, and EY didn't look as good after Norway turned up important to the town.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I also think SMC's death is more likely to give more concrete yes or no type answers.

Can u elaborate? To be honest both doggin and smc look weird to me. But to me smc is offering a way to verify his status while doggin is not. Also, if smc is truly innocent the scum take him out anyways as he is a threat.

You have good intuition crusher. What are your thoughts on both?

[Dan.]

So, your theory is that, as mafia, I sacrificed my kill night 1 (by aiming at a likely protected target), and sacrificed my kill night 2 . . . yeah, that sounds like something I would do

Or, conversely, SMC is lying scum who is acting scummy because he's lying scum.

Isn't this the theory in favor of SMC's innocence? That on Night 1 he killed Bleedin' and the scum went after EY, who was protected by Norway?

Do we really think there was an attempt to night kill EY, when everyone knew the doctor was protecting him?

But then the other theory, that SMC is guilty, also requires that the scum wasted a night kill (to "confuse" us), this time on Night 2.

Neither of these options sounds right to me. I can't believe the scum would waste an NK attempt on an obviously protected player, but I also can't believe the scum would waste an NK to mess with our heads.

I think there has to be a better explanation for why we're all still here this morning.

[Doggin94it]

As I said before, yes.

You should really check the rules:

The only why to keep you alive was not to kill me, it was to block me because if I sent in the NK for you, you'd be dead even it you kill me.

And if I lynch you today, I'm dead tomorrow, so either way it's my life for yours. Your argument makes no sense.

Hell, if that's your theory, we should keep both of us alive, then I can keep role blocking you and there are no night kills at all for the rest of the game

[Vicious89x]

But what if you were confident, as I'm sure Doggin was, that SMC was coming for you. Then, you'd take him out, but you'd be sacrificing yourself to do it.

So yes, Doggin probably knows he's going to get lynched. But, he gets to live all through today, all through tonight, and then fight his hardest to propose another potential lynch target.

How would he have done that? By saying he was a killer, and we needed him gone. He couln't have known he was fighting for the good side, because he killed SMC. Would it work, who knows? And probably not. But, in the same token, it's no chance of survival vs some chance of survival.

This is about longevity and a prayer for Doggin. Little more IMO.

I'm saying I trust in my team to get the job done. If I somehow KNEW SMC was going to kill me... I'd let myself get killed. I'm always willing to let myself get killed.

If he had gone through the trouble of saving himself... he would've tried working on another enemy. Because why have the town do the job that I can do myself. Because if I come out screaming KILL THIS GUY, and I'm wrong, I'm the primary suspect cause that person is saying NO VICIOUS IS THE LIAR. I die REGARDLESS.

I die, he dies. My team moves on and goes after another target for the day, they get an innocent, and then they get another at night because there's no protection and no need to use a "role block".

[ZachEY]

Isn't this the theory in favor of SMC's innocence? That on Night 1 he killed Bleedin' and the scum went after EY, who was protected by Norway?

Do we really think there was an attempt to night kill EY, when everyone knew the doctor was protecting him?

But then the other theory, that SMC is guilty, also requires that the scum wasted a night kill (to "confuse" us), this time on Night 2.

Neither of these options sounds right to me. I can't believe the scum would waste an NK attempt on an obviously protected player, but I also can't believe the scum would waste an NK to mess with our heads.

I think there has to be a better explanation for why we're all still here this morning.

Dan. There probably is a better explanation as to why we're all here. I don't know if we're going to figure that out though.

[Vicious89x]

I guess it's a matter of style. I'd probably block to save my ass, then try to get him lynched the next day. They're already down one. He lets SMC kill him one for one, and the scum is hurting in the numbers game. Doggin was on SMC the previous day. It'd be completely consistent to go after him the next. Even easier once EY's train killed the lawyer instead of another scum. EY was SMC's defender, and EY didn't look as good after Norway turned up important to the town.

Exaaaaccctttlllly.

That's the way I play. If I think there's a threat. You eliminate it. You don't let it fester and get stronger. I'm convinced SMC is scum, that's why I'm after him. If he's not and he's innocent. Then it's Doggin. I don't over complicate the game.

[JustInFudge]

Holy **** this game is moving.

I need to read up and I will share my thoughts. Actually had some work to do this afternoon.

Jeesh. This is too much to read right now, I am going home and I will finish reading and then I was post my thoughts.

[slats]

and if the guy you choose is the finder?

I mean even just a random townie would suck - gives the mafia 2 kills instead of 1 - but what if you guys manage to choose the finder (you know, the way you chose the doc?)

This is the worst plan in the history of planning

Obviously we take that risk with every lynch vote. If we whack the top two guys on the family's radar in one day -and they both turn up innocent- it'll suck, but it will have only sped the process up one day. Which really isn't that bad being that there were no kills last night.

Hardly debilitating, and worth the risk, IMHO.

[SMC]

And if I lynch you today, I'm dead tomorrow, so either way it's my life for yours. Your argument makes no sense.

Hell, if that's your theory, we should keep both of us alive, then I can keep role blocking you and there are no night kills at all for the rest of the game

It makes perfect sense ... because you're a Rat.

I tried to NK you and was blocked. You say that was a lie. Based on what exactly?

I've actually presented evidence to support my claim of Vigilante.

You've tried to discredit it, but provided no evidence to support your claim I'm scum. Besides, of course, your Peter Petrelli-fetish.

[ZachEY]

I'm saying I trust in my team to get the job done. If I somehow KNEW SMC was going to kill me... I'd let myself get killed. I'm always willing to let myself get killed.

If he had gone through the trouble of saving himself... he would've tried working on another enemy. Because why have the town do the job that I can do myself. Because if I come out screaming KILL THIS GUY, and I'm wrong, I'm the primary suspect cause that person is saying NO VICIOUS IS THE LIAR. I die REGARDLESS.

I die, he dies. My team moves on and goes after another target for the day, they get an innocent, and then they get another at night because there's no protection and no need to use a "role block".

Yes. I would trust my team too. But I'd give them a head start by allowing my death to come in a day or so. Cause I'd try to kill SMC during the day first. Then my team cant get hurt anymore, and I stick around.

Also, when you plan out lynches like that, SMC 1st, Doggin 2nd, it ensures that your team doesn't get lynched in the process. Doggin's helping his team more by keeping the heat off of them if he knows he's dead.

I'm also willing to let myself get killed. But the more I delay it, the better the head start my team gets. None of Doggin's other mafia members will die today. That much we've been guaranteed by what he did. There's no guarentee that would have been the case if he sacrificed his life.

I don't think he could work on another enemy. SMC was going full speed ahead. He knew he had to beat him. Again, longevity.

[Jets Babe]

Currently my FOS is on doggin...

[The Crusher]

Here are my two night action PMs:

That's just ****ing peachy, now we have two vigilantes.

[ZachEY]

Obviously we take that risk with every lynch vote. If we whack the top two guys on the family's radar in one day -and they both turn up innocent- it'll suck, but it will have only sped the process up one day. Which really isn't that bad being that there were no kills last night.

Hardly debilitating, and worth the risk, IMHO.

Hardly. And considering there's more mafia then finders (we assume) odds are better that he kills the right guy.

[Vicious89x]

Look, I took my vote off SMC. You're not gonna convince me he's not scum. You guys have yourself a blast being taken on a ride.

[Doggin94it]

Being wrong once doesn't necessitate being wrong on the next.

And you're only insulting yourself. No one else is calling you a mindless robot.

I'm still interested in your thoughts on Doggin's posts about killing SMC at night to save himself, when clearly, by rule, that is wrong. And no one knows the rules more than doggin.

Considering I never said that, it's hard to know how he'd answer.

If SMC is not scum, and I lead this lynch, I'm dead. That's been clear forever. So giving up a NK in the hope that I can lynch SMC today (and get lynched tomorrow) makes no sense.

Think about it:

roleblock, no NK scenario:

Last night, No kill

Today - Me or SMC dies

Tonight - kill

Tomorrow - I die if I was still alive

End result: if SMC is lynched today: 2 dead innocents (today, tonight), 1 dead mafia (me, tomorrow). if I'm lynched today: 1/2 dead innocent (tonight's kill, probably whoever dies tomorrow)

NK, no roleblock:

Last night - I die, SMC dies

Today: Lynch of random player, likely innocent

Tonight: NK

Tomorrow: Lynch of random player, likely innocent

Liklely end result: 4 dead innocents, 1 dead mafia

Why would I give up the NK to stay alive for one more phase. It is the stupidest possible move I could make. Almost as stupid as aiming at Yellin night 1 would have been

Which is what I've been saying all along - if those are my options, I'd have killed SMC and accepted the chance that SMC kills me at the same time (remember, I can't know what SMC would have done) rather than almost guaranteed to be worse results of a roleblock/no kill.

Simply put, if you think I'm mafia who did this, you think I'm the stupidest mafioso ever.

SMC doesn't even argue that - he just says "YES" when I ask if you think I'd be that stupid.

Hey, crusher, you've been mafia teammates with me before. Am I that stupid? Or is SMC lying scum?

[Doggin94it]

That's not an answer to Doggin's suggestion that he could've whacked SMC to save himself when the rules clearly say they'd both die.

That's not what I said. I said that given the option of blocking or killing SMC, as mafia I'd kill SMC even if I died anyway. See above for the reason why.

[SMC]

Okay, Doggin. Besides me, who else should we vote for?