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Faneca is not Kendall


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Why Faneca's Release is Not Like the Kendall Situation

943_tiny.gif by dvdvil on May 24, 2010 12:46 AM EDT comment.v1599.png 0 comments

Most of us here, including me, are pretty upset with the release of LG Alan Faneca. We remember that the last time we lost a good left guard, we allowed a ton of hits and sacks on our QBs. In fact, the starting QB was injured in the season opener.

So I know many of us are worried that the same thing will happen this year.

Well, I'm here to tell you that there's no need to panic, and here are some reasons why.

In 2007, the Jets came into the season with LG Pete Kendall as the starter. We all know by now that HC Eric Mangini can be pretty stubborn, and things got out of hand. He demoted Kendall and put him in rookie dorms, but clearly, the team needed him. He was hastily traded near the end of training camp, and that's when the backups knew for sure they would be needed to step up.

This year, there is none of that uncertainly, as it's clear there will be a competition for the position.

In 2007, the fill-in was Adrien Clarke, who was Philadelphia's 7th rounder in 2004 and currently without a team. He was later replaced by 2007 rookie 6th rounder Jacob Bender. He was later replaced by Will Montgomery, a seventh rounder in 2006. The best backup OL we have had in recent years then was let go before the 2006 season, and that was Jonathan Goodwin, the Super Bowl winning center for New Orleans.

This year, one of the competitors is a much higher draft pick in 2nd rounder Vladimir Ducasse. NFLDraftScout.com listed him as one of the mock-busters who could make the first round. He will go against Matt Slauson, a sixth rounder in 2009 but counting for one-third of that year's excellent draft and obviously chosen by his former college coach Bill Callahan, the best offensive line coach in the NFL. Slauson has had a year to learn behind Faneca, as well as getting to know the rest of the linemen.

Whoever wins the job will be playing between two ever-improving Pro Bowl linemen who have helped the team win in the playoffs. The loss of Faneca won't be as devastating as the loss of Kendall in 2007. Rest assured, Jets fans, that we are more prepared for it this year than we were in then.

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I hope to hell that it isn't like the Kendall situation.

OTOH, I think there are plenty of similarities. They have a questionable young vet and a very raw small school rookie trying to take the place of an aging vet. Both Faneca and Kendall were both excellent players that were clearly on the decline at the time they were dumped.

I have no faith that Slauson will be a quality NFL player. He might, but I doubt he's any more equiped than Clarke was. I remember when he was drafted people were surprised. I think many had him graded as an UDFA. We all figure he was drafted because of his relationhip with Callahan, that may be a negative as much as a positive. Sometimes coaches like to keep their pets around. We'll see if he can earn his keep now.

Ducasse is obviously a much better prospect than Bender. OTOH, what they have in common is being smaller school prospects that are very raw and are changing positions. Both were tackles that didn't play guard in college and if anything I think Bender faced a higher level of competition than UMass. I'm pretty sure we all watched film of Bender against Nebraska. The sky is the limit for Ducasse, but make no mistake, he's a project, whether people want to pencil him in for D'Brick in the future or not.

The difference is that we are all putting our faith in Callahan. I trust the guy, but we are aiming much higher in 2010 than in 2007. The margin for error is much smaller. Callahan's zone blocking scheme is probably more complicated than what they ran in '07. There was talk that it took the vets time to pick it up and fully install it in 2009. They'd better know what the **** they are doing. FWIW, I'm happy they kept Turner around. I look at Turner as a worst case scenario and I don't think it will be too bad.

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The timing alone makes it different from the Kendall situation. In late August, it was already obvious Kendall was the only legitimate LG starter we had. And then we released him a week or so before the season anyway.

Plus Bender was a low-level rookie, and both Clarke and Montgomery were just added as FA's. No one had seen either one play vs live action before (other than as a scout).

Faneca was released over draft weekend, 4 months before the start of the season. Callahan has seen Slauson up close for like 4 years now. I think he has made the determination that Slauson was "good enough" to start for us. Then we drafted Ducasse. If Ducasse beats out Slauson, all the better for the OL. If not, then Callahan goes back to his "good enough" backup plan. But either way, Faneca became expendable.

In 2007, Kendall was not expendable. They had Kendall and 2 unknowns. Then the unknowns (particularly Bender) had shown they were not adequate replacements and they traded Kendall in late August anyway.

The only similarity is that we'll be replacing a NFL-veteran LG with an NFL-inexperienced LG.

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The timing alone makes it different from the Kendall situation. In late August, it was already obvious Kendall was the only legitimate LG starter we had. And then we released him a week or so before the season anyway.

Plus Bender was a low-level rookie, and both Clarke and Montgomery were just added as FA's. No one had seen either one play vs live action before (other than as a scout).

Faneca was released over draft weekend, 4 months before the start of the season. Callahan has seen Slauson up close for like 4 years now. I think he has made the determination that Slauson was "good enough" to start for us. Then we drafted Ducasse. If Ducasse beats out Slauson, all the better for the OL. If not, then Callahan goes back to his "good enough" backup plan. But either way, Faneca became expendable.

In 2007, Kendall was not expendable. They had Kendall and 2 unknowns. Then the unknowns (particularly Bender) had shown they were not adequate replacements and they traded Kendall in late August anyway.

The only similarity is that we'll be replacing a NFL-veteran LG with an NFL-inexperienced LG.

I agree, but at this point we don't have any proof that Ducasse/Slauson are better than Bender/Clarke. The key is that if these guys suck we should have time to monkey around and get a replacement or slide Turner over. The problem was that we all knew Kendall was by far the best option at LG in '07 and they still traded his ass. Even after the preseason people were still telling me that Clarke would be an upgrade and "they know what they were doing". Guess what: They didn't. I hope they learned their lesson, but I'm not completely sure. They actually got a 4th (the next year so 5th equivalent) for Kendall who wanted and got more money. They couldn't get **** for Faneca presumably because of his contract.

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I agree, but at this point we don't have any proof that Ducasse/Slauson are better than Bender/Clarke. The key is that if these guys suck we should have time to monkey around and get a replacement or slide Turner over. The problem was that we all knew Kendall was by far the best option at LG in '07 and they still traded his ass. Even after the preseason people were still telling me that Clarke would be an upgrade and "they know what they were doing". Guess what: They didn't. I hope they learned their lesson, but I'm not completely sure. They actually got a 4th (the next year so 5th equivalent) for Kendall who wanted and got more money. They couldn't get **** for Faneca presumably because of his contract.

The player personnel are different, the timing of the Kendall vs Faneca departures are different, the remaining 4 players on the line are different (in either name or level of play) and the coaching staff (particularly the OL coach) is different.

Those are not subtle differences, unless you feel that all OL coaches are equal in terms of coaching and evaluating their players, unless you feel like Ferguson/Mangold 2010 are no better than Ferguson/Mangold 2007 (not to mention swapping Clement for Woody), and other such differences.

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I'm not sure how getting rid of Kendal hurt us? Where exactly was that team going with Kendal? How did moving on from an over the hill over paid Kendal, Mawae, Curtis and Pennington and upgrading the staff and personal actual hurt us?

One of the best things that happened to this team was moving on from trying to win a SB with mediocre talent, old over paid talent and a weak coaching staff.

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The player personnel are different, the timing of the Kendall vs Faneca departures are different, the remaining 4 players on the line are different (in either name or level of play) and the coaching staff (particularly the OL coach) is different.

Those are not subtle differences, unless you feel that all OL coaches are equal in terms of coaching and evaluating their players, unless you feel like Ferguson/Mangold 2010 are no better than Ferguson/Mangold 2007 (not to mention swapping Clement for Woody), and other such differences.

The names are different, but what we actually know is the same. It all boils down to one question: Do you trust them?

Plenty of people blinding trusted them in '07, even when it was obvious they didn't deserve it. I tend to trust them, but don't act like there aren't similarities. When the traded Kendall I heard how Brick and Mangold were ready and were going to step it up. That didn't happen. The timing is different, except that we all knew they were dumping Kendall at this time in '07. When they actually traded him it was hard to believe because Clarke/Bender obviously couldn't do the job, but we knew it was coming for months.

I think they really like Ducasse and feel that by year end he'll be an improvement. Clarke didn't cut it and I don't think they moved Bender until Clarke already failed. To me the biggest difference is that I think they dumped Kendall as an example because he wanted more money and he was the union rep/resident big mouth. Faneca seemed like he was just a highly paid good soldier to me. The only real reason to cut him was declining play.

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The names are different, but what we actually know is the same. It all boils down to one question: Do you trust them?

Plenty of people blinding trusted them in '07, even when it was obvious they didn't deserve it. I tend to trust them, but don't act like there aren't similarities. When the traded Kendall I heard how Brick and Mangold were ready and were going to step it up. That didn't happen. The timing is different, except that we all knew they were dumping Kendall at this time in '07. When they actually traded him it was hard to believe because Clarke/Bender obviously couldn't do the job, but we knew it was coming for months.

I think they really like Ducasse and feel that by year end he'll be an improvement. Clarke didn't cut it and I don't think they moved Bender until Clarke already failed. To me the biggest difference is that I think they dumped Kendall as an example because he wanted more money and he was the union rep/resident big mouth. Faneca seemed like he was just a highly paid good soldier to me. The only real reason to cut him was declining play.

So then you agree it's different. I accept your apology.

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The names are different, but what we actually know is the same. It all boils down to one question: Do you trust them?

Plenty of people blinding trusted them in '07, even when it was obvious they didn't deserve it. I tend to trust them, but don't act like there aren't similarities. When the traded Kendall I heard how Brick and Mangold were ready and were going to step it up. That didn't happen. The timing is different, except that we all knew they were dumping Kendall at this time in '07. When they actually traded him it was hard to believe because Clarke/Bender obviously couldn't do the job, but we knew it was coming for months.

I think they really like Ducasse and feel that by year end he'll be an improvement. Clarke didn't cut it and I don't think they moved Bender until Clarke already failed. To me the biggest difference is that I think they dumped Kendall as an example because he wanted more money and he was the union rep/resident big mouth. Faneca seemed like he was just a highly paid good soldier to me. The only real reason to cut him was declining play.

Did you trust Parcells? We basically blew the 99 season because we didn't have a backup QB. Talk about a dumb move in hindsight.

Reality is this could blow up in our face but keeping Faneca could also blow up in our face. Keeping older guys who are clearly in decline has a risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

This is probably one of the best all around staffs we have had in years. The team is clearly making a run this year and if they can't make the evaluation the team really has no shot anyway. If they can't evaluate Faneca's performance or if Clauson or Ducasse is ready to step in, how can we trust them to make any evaluations?

We cut bait with some guys who showed some age at the end of last year and brought in some great new talent. It may work out it may not? I trust the team wants to win and is moving in that direction. None of that guarantees anything.

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So then you agree it's different. I accept your apology.

****

Did you trust Parcells? We basically blew the 99 season because we didn't have a backup QB. Talk about a dumb move in hindsight.

Reality is this could blow up in our face but keeping Faneca could also blow up in our face. Keeping older guys who are clearly in decline has a risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

This is probably one of the best all around staffs we have had in years. The team is clearly making a run this year and if they can't make the evaluation the team really has no shot anyway. If they can't evaluate Faneca's performance or if Clauson or Ducasse is ready to step in, how can we trust them to make any evaluations?

We cut bait with some guys who showed some age at the end of last year and brought in some great new talent. It may work out it may not? I trust the team wants to win and is moving in that direction. None of that guarantees anything.

Ha. You're asking the wrong guy. I never trusted that fat carpetbagger. He's only out for himself. I always thought that Little Bill was the brains behind the operation, but I didn't think he had the personality to actually lead a full team.

I'm fine with ditching older vets for younger players. I'm just saying that the same points could have been made when Kendall was on the trading block. I think and hope the situations are different, but wishing won't make it so. There are more similarities than the OP or Sperm are admitting.

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I'm not sure how getting rid of Kendal hurt us? Where exactly was that team going with Kendal? How did moving on from an over the hill over paid Kendal, Mawae, Curtis and Pennington and upgrading the staff and personal actual hurt us?

One of the best things that happened to this team was moving on from trying to win a SB with mediocre talent, old over paid talent and a weak coaching staff.

You can't look backward and say every move we made was a good move because it put us where we are today. People justify the Favre debacle that way and it drives me nuts. Each season is a race to the Super Bowl. We dumped Kendall and suddenly a contender became a also-ran. Except we couldn't run. Or pass. And all of our offensive weapons were destroyed behind a horrendous O-line, while Pete Kendall was doing a bang-up job in Washington. The move didn't just hurt us, it ended our season. Here's hoping Ducasse is better than A. Clark was.

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You can't look backward and say every move we made was a good move because it put us where we are today. People justify the Favre debacle that way and it drives me nuts. Each season is a race to the Super Bowl. We dumped Kendall and suddenly a contender became a also-ran. Except we couldn't run. Or pass. And all of our offensive weapons were destroyed behind a horrendous O-line, while Pete Kendall was doing a bang-up job in Washington. The move didn't just hurt us, it ended our season. Here's hoping Ducasse is better than A. Clark was.

The day we got Favre it made us better because it allowed us to cut bait with Chad. This team was going nowhere with Chad and at least renting Favre for a year made the team move on.

This franchise has had a handful of years with the kind of talent that you could actually make a run at a SB. We actually closed the deal once. The window is small and knowing when to cut bait and start over is half the battle. Our offensive weapons were mediocre with or without Kendall. Mediocre doesn't make a serious run for a title.

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The day we got Favre it made us better because it allowed us to cut bait with Chad. This team was going nowhere with Chad and at least renting Favre for a year made the team move on.

This franchise has had a handful of years with the kind of talent that you could actually make a run at a SB. We actually closed the deal once. The window is small and knowing when to cut bait and start over is half the battle. Our offensive weapons were mediocre with or without Kendall. Mediocre doesn't make a serious run for a title.

I get it that getting Favre led to dumping Pennington, but that's always a terrible rationalization. We could just as easily have traded up for Sanchez while we had Pennington and Clemens here, particularly with both of them having contracts that were expiring within a year.

I'd say getting Favre was more instrumental in replacing Mangini with Ryan than it was in replacing Pennington with Sanchez.

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I'd say getting Favre was more instrumental in replacing Mangini with Ryan than it was in replacing Pennington with Sanchez.

Not to play the "what if" game, but do you think the Jets end up firing Mangini with Pennington/Clemens as the starting QB?

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I get it that getting Favre led to dumping Pennington, but that's always a terrible rationalization. We could just as easily have traded up for Sanchez while we had Pennington and Clemens here, particularly with both of them having contracts that were expiring within a year.

I'd say getting Favre was more instrumental in replacing Mangini with Ryan than it was in replacing Pennington with Sanchez.

There is no way this franchise unloads Pennington for a draft pick. If we kept Pennington we either don't draft Sanchez or he sits for a year. Favre had enough cache and enough potential to catch lightening in a bottle to actually unload Chad.

Do you honestly think if Chad had the year for us that he had for the Fins in 09 that we unload him and move up for picks? He would have been felatiated by our fan base after winning the AFC east and they would have forgiving him for coming up small in the playoffs. We would have been as delusional as Fin fans were about Chad.

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There is no way this franchise unloads Pennington for a draft pick. If we kept Pennington we either don't draft Sanchez or he sits for a year. Favre had enough cache and enough potential to catch lightening in a bottle to actually unload Chad.

Do you honestly think if Chad had the year for us that he had for the Fins in 09 that we unload him and move up for picks? He would have been felatiated by our fan base after winning the AFC east and they would have forgiving him for coming up small in the playoffs. We would have been as delusional as Fin fans were about Chad.

Luckily for Dolphins fans, their delusions of grandeur only lasted 1 season before Henne took over, whereas it took as long as 6 years for Jets fans to finally be tired of Chad.

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There is no way this franchise unloads Pennington for a draft pick. If we kept Pennington we either don't draft Sanchez or he sits for a year. Favre had enough cache and enough potential to catch lightening in a bottle to actually unload Chad.

Do you honestly think if Chad had the year for us that he had for the Fins in 09 that we unload him and move up for picks? He would have been felatiated by our fan base after winning the AFC east and they would have forgiving him for coming up small in the playoffs. We would have been as delusional as Fin fans were about Chad.

That's an awful lot of supposition upon supposition. IF we didn't acquire Favre and IF Chad retained the starting job and IF he had exactly the same statistical season with this team that he had with a totally different team which means IF we also started wildcatting all over the place to take endless pressure off Pennington as a passer and IF he didn't get injured again as well...

If Pennington was here he wouldn't have had that same exact season he had in Miami. He just wouldn't have. Different situation, different players around him on offense, different defenses and different game situations along the way, and different coaches with different gameplans. Though I'd still give him the benefit of the doubt that he still would have gotten the nod, he wasn't even hands-down winning the competition in training camp. Forget what you now know; that was the reality of the situation back then.

It's more likely that Pennington would have had a 2006-type season or would have gotten injured or gotten yanked for Clemens if he had back-to-back bad games. And if that happened, I think Mangini would still be here. But it's equally likely that we'd have traded up for Sanchez. Pennington wasn't getting an extension past 2009 if we kept him that year at all.

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If anything dumping Faneca and adding Ducasse is more like what the Jets did when they dumped Mawae and added Mangold.

The difference? Mawae went on to have 3 more productive and healthy seasons. I doubt Faneca has 3 more good years in him.

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That's an awful lot of supposition upon supposition. IF we didn't acquire Favre and IF Chad retained the starting job and IF he had exactly the same statistical season with this team that he had with a totally different team which means IF we also started wildcatting all over the place to take endless pressure off Pennington as a passer and IF he didn't get injured again as well...

If Pennington was here he wouldn't have had that same exact season he had in Miami. He just wouldn't have. Different situation, different players around him on offense, different defenses and different game situations along the way, and different coaches with different gameplans. Though I'd still give him the benefit of the doubt that he still would have gotten the nod, he wasn't even hands-down winning the competition in training camp. Forget what you now know; that was the reality of the situation back then.

It's more likely that Pennington would have had a 2006-type season or would have gotten injured or gotten yanked for Clemens if he had back-to-back bad games. And if that happened, I think Mangini would still be here. But it's equally likely that we'd have traded up for Sanchez. Pennington wasn't getting an extension past 2009 if we kept him that year at all.

You can slice this anyway you want. I'm convinced that the reason they got Favre is because they were convinced that Clemens was not capable of starting and didn't want to hand the ball back to Chad.

The 08 Jets were better in just about every aspect of the game than the Dolphins with one exception Bret Favre tanked down the stretch. It's not a stretch at all to think that another mediocre veteran QB who shuns mistakes could have taken the jets to 10 wins in 09. It's not a stretch to think that a good no mistake vet takes the 09 team to 11 wins.

That's not to say the Jets would be better off I don't think they would have been. The fact is that Pennington with no arm at all practically took the 04 team to the AFC finals and that team wasn't close to as good as the Jets of the last two years.

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You can slice this anyway you want. I'm convinced that the reason they got Favre is because they were convinced that Clemens was not capable of starting and didn't want to hand the ball back to Chad.

That's not to say the Jets would be better off I don't think they would have been. The fact is that Pennington with no arm at all practically took the 04 team to the AFC finals and that team wasn't close to as good as the Jets of the last two years.

They got Favre because he's Brett Favre and was coming off one of his best seasons. He was thought to be a no-brainer better option than either Pennington or Clemens or pre-season darling Ratliff.

One of the reasons we won with him was his ability to chuck it really opened up running lanes. Even Sanchez did that, though he didn't have such great success throwing it most of last year. Pennington really didn't give us that. He got away with a lot of stuff with Miami because of their unpredictable formations and playcalling. I don't think he would have been as successful here in 2008 as he was in Miami nor do I think the ground game would have been as successful.

The 08 Jets were better in just about every aspect of the game than the Dolphins with one exception Bret Favre tanked down the stretch. It's not a stretch at all to think that another mediocre veteran QB who shuns mistakes could have taken the jets to 10 wins in 09. It's not a stretch to think that a good no mistake vet takes the 09 team to 11 wins.

The 08 Jets were not better in the coaching aspect.

We were an impossibly stupid Dick Jauron coaching decision + the lucky defensive play on it away from finishing 8-8 that year.

It's easy to assign wins to "anyone else" when they don't have to actually play in or win the games to prove your point.

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They got Favre because he's Brett Favre and was coming off one of his best seasons. He was thought to be a no-brainer better option than either Pennington or Clemens or pre-season darling Ratliff.

Jets got Brett Favre because they were coming off of a 4-12 season and he was the only way the Jets could get themselves above the the reigning superbowl champs as the lead football news in NYC.

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Jets got Brett Favre because they were coming off of a 4-12 season and he was the only way the Jets could get themselves above the the reigning superbowl champs as the lead football news in NYC.

Their QB's were Pennington, Clemens, and Ratliff. They got Favre because Favre was gettable.

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OK, how 'bout this: Is this team better with Ducasse starting instead of Faneca this year? No. i don't think so. Is this team better with Tomlinson than it would be with T. Jones, assuming both play the 2nd back role? No, I don't think so. We have upgraded and downgraded. the question is whether the downgrades were minimal and the upgrades significant enough to overcome them. Holmes for eight games is good, LT is nearly a wash, though probably a downgrade. Rex and Sanchez with a year of learning, very good, losing a member of an awesome front five, substantial. No one can say definitatively where we stand right now. I'm hopeful. But its this season or bust. Because 2011 is going to be filled with change.

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OK, how 'bout this: Is this team better with Ducasse starting instead of Faneca this year? No. i don't think so. Is this team better with Tomlinson than it would be with T. Jones, assuming both play the 2nd back role? No, I don't think so.

I think we potentially upgraded with both moves.

For one, we KNOW Faneca is a liability in the pass-blocking department. He was the WORST guard in the NFL in terms of sacks allowed, and he did so on a run-first team. Bad sign. If Ducasse is at least servicable in the pass-blocking department, he's an improvement over Faneca, and when you consider the moves we've made on offense to improve our passing game, that's important. While it makes more sense sometimes to go with the known over the unknown, what we KNEW about Faneca made him expendable.

As for Jones, there's no way you can say he's a better option as the # 2 back than LT. LT can catch the ball, actually break a tackle, and do more than just take what the OL gives him. Jones can do none of these things. With Leon Washington gone too, we needed a guy who can be a safety valve in the passing game for Sanchez, and LT fits that role perfectly.

While LT was being courted by the Vikings along with us, Jones signed on with the only team looking at him, the mediocre Chiefs, as THEIR # 2 back. Shows how little respect the guy got despite putting up good numbers. I suppose scouts realized that our amazing OL was the reason for Jones's numbers, and after watching his performance against Indy in the AFC Title game, where the OL was, as usual, giving him giant holes, and this time he DIDN'T run through them, it makes sense.

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If anything dumping Faneca and adding Ducasse is more like what the Jets did when they dumped Mawae and added Mangold.

The difference? Mawae went on to have 3 more productive and healthy seasons. I doubt Faneca has 3 more good years in him.

:sign0098: It's exactly the same. Saved $$ on a younger player who'll be there for years vs a high priced veteran on the downside of his career.

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Jets got Brett Favre because they were coming off of a 4-12 season and he was the only way the Jets could get themselves above the the reigning superbowl champs as the lead football news in NYC.

:roll: Stick to something you actually know about. Whatever that might be. :P

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So Ducasse is now better than Alan Faneca and LT is better than Jones? We'll see I guess.

Yes.

You're forgetting that LT is a year younger than Jones and was at one time one of the best RB's in NFL history. He's lost a lot of the quickness that made him great, but he's compensated a bit for that by being more of a between-the-tackles guy that's capable of breaking some tackles and pushing the pile.

LT found the end zone a LOT (12 rushing TD's) on the ground last season despite running behind a below average OL and being on a pass-first offense. Imagine what he can do here.

You're also forgetting that, while Faneca has been getting in Pro Bowls for his name, his play has been declining steadily. I'll take my chances with the untested rookie over a guy who got Sanchez sacked 7 times last year.

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