Eric Mangini joining 49er's staff

[T0mShane]

Not that I particularly have a horse in this argument, but don't you really get on Yankees' fans for expecting to win every year and essentially acting the exact same way your defending the giants' fans for acting?? Which isn't too surprising seeing as how they're usually one in the same fan.

Whoa whoa whoa. Comparing anyone to Yankees fans is cold-blooded, bruh. The problem with Yankee fans is that they can't comprehend that their team's success is a direct result of their payroll advantage, and not through any type of merit. My point in bring up Fassel was to demonstrate to JF80 that only Jets fans would reward any coach with undying loyalty because he made a championship game a few years ago. Fassel, Billick, and Gruden (for instance) all appeared in and/or won Super Bowls and got fired a few seasons later, but (according to 80), Rex deserves an extension based on success he had almost three years ago. In sum, f&@k 80.

[jetsjetsjetss]

Whoa whoa whoa. Comparing anyone to Yankees fans is cold-blooded, bruh. The problem with Yankee fans is that they can't comprehend that their team's success is a direct result of their payroll advantage, and not through any type of merit. My point in bring up Fassel was to demonstrate to JF80 that only Jets fans would reward any coach with undying loyalty because he made a championship game a few years ago. Fassel, Billick, and Gruden (for instance) all appeared in and/or won Super Bowls and got fired a few seasons later, but (according to 80), Rex deserves an extension based on success he had almost three years ago. In sum, f&@k 80.

 

worked for the angels last year

 

What im really trying to say is GFY and go yankees

[BroadwayJoe12]

Whoa whoa whoa. Comparing anyone to Yankees fans is cold-blooded, bruh. The problem with Yankee fans is that they can't comprehend that their team's success is a direct result of their payroll advantage, and not through any type of merit. My point in bring up Fassel was to demonstrate to JF80 that only Jets fans would reward any coach with undying loyalty because he made a championship game a few years ago. Fassel, Billick, and Gruden (for instance) all appeared in and/or won Super Bowls and got fired a few seasons later, but (according to 80), Rex deserves an extension based on success he had almost three years ago. In sum, f&@k 80.

 

Haha I got the point you were making, it just amused me to bring it up.  I actually think giants' fans, like most win-fed franchises, don't understand how difficult it really is to win it all and how much of a perfect-storm-of-luck to go along with immense talent you need to have to win it all. Nothing pissed me off more than actually hearing Boston fans rip on Bellichik for his drafting and "wasting Brady's prime" by only winning three SBs or any of their other nonsense, not knowing what a Knicks/Jets fan has suffered through in their life.

[SenorGato]

The problem with Yankee fans is that they can't comprehend that their team's success is a direct result of their payroll advantage, and not through any type of merit.

 

Probably because it's bullsh*t.

 

The following players came out of the Yankees system from the late 80s-early00s:

 

Derek Jeter

Bernie Williams

Jorge Posada

Robinson Cano

Mariano Rivera

Andy Pettitte

Al Leiter

Mike Lowell

Jake Westbrook

Alfonso Soriano

Randy Choate

Chien-Ming Wang

Melky Cabrera

Damaso Marte

Jay Buhner

Ted Lilly

Fred McGriff

 

Plus whoever I've forgotten. 

[T0mShane]

Haha I got the point you were making, it just amused me to bring it up. I actually think giants' fans, like most win-fed franchises, don't understand how difficult it really is to win it all and how much of a perfect-storm-of-luck to go along with immense talent you need to have to win it all. Nothing pissed me off more than actually hearing Boston fans rip on Bellichik for his drafting and "wasting Brady's prime" by only winning three SBs or any of their other nonsense, not knowing what a Knicks/Jets fan has suffered through in their life.

Pats fans, Giants fans, and Yankees fans make me sick for the reasons you mentioned.

[T0mShane]

Probably because it's bullsh*t.

The following players came out of the Yankees system from the late 80s-early00s:

Derek Jeter

Bernie Williams

Jorge Posada

Robinson Cano

Mariano Rivera

Andy Pettitte

Al Leiter

Mike Lowell

Jake Westbrook

Alfonso Soriano

Randy Choate

Chien-Ming Wang

Melky Cabrera

Damaso Marte

Jay Buhner

Ted Lilly

Fred McGriff

Plus whoever I've forgotten.

No other team in the league would pay Jeter $190 mil. No other team could pay Posada and Rivera and Pettite AND supplement them with Giambi and ARod and CC and Clemens etc etc etc etc etc etc

[SenorGato]

No other team in the league would pay Jeter $190 mil. No other team could pay Posada and Rivera and Pettite AND supplement them with Giambi and ARod and CC and Clemens etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

Yeah but that's all after they won 4 rings in 5 years. 

 

ARod was a trade, and one that they took from the Red Sox as bosses do. Clemens came in 1999 after 2 WS victories in 3 years. Plus, their payroll advantage really only starts exploding in 2002 when they from +<300K to a 17 million dollar gap. 

 

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#98_payroll

[Bleedin Green]

Mangini was carried by Pennington and Favre, two different quarterbacks, and we should assume that the one bad season of three was the only real one. Can something that occurred 66% of the time be considered the aberration? But we should give extra credit to Rex for his two good seasons and ignore his two awful ones, because he was a good defensive coordinator once?

All of it. Having history on one's side is good for the ego.

Me: Mangini and Rex are both failures.

Me: Rex's team today is worse than the team he assumed.

Me: Rex will likely be fired and everyone defending him in this thread will be tearing him apart three years from now, because amnesia.

Which bullsh*t are you referring to?

Because, and I know you know this, Herm was a lightweight player's coach whose teams were soft and a mess. Mangini, like Parcells, had to douche every hallway in the building to get the stink out.

If Rex gets fired at the end of the season, it'll be because he drafted , coached, and played a bad QB and surrounded him with a pitiful offense and hired pitiful offensive coordinators and ran an overrated defense that progressively fooled only rookies and journeymen. Sanchez is a fraction of Rex's issues.

Rex had half the team behind him during dual collapses, but the team quit on Mangini one year and magically unquit the next season? Come on, dawg

 

 

You can't seriously believe this horse sh*t.  So now a 9-7 season is good and yet an 8-8 season is "awful"?  Do you ever even read some of the crap you write?  Mangini had one pretty good season in which the team slipped into the playoffs and were thoroughly embarrassed in their very first game, after which point the Jets never returned to the playoffs under him.

 

I'm not even trying to argue that Rex is a good coach, but Mangini was ******* awful, and this recent argument otherwise is a complete load of bullsh*t that not a single one of you were saying 4 years ago and is just another desperate attempt to put predecessors on a pedestal in order to invent more nonsense to use to hate on whoever is currently around.  You know, if you actually just stuck to the plenty of real reasons that exist out there to criticize Rex, you would actually have a much more legitimate argument to present instead of this utter nonsense.  The fact that you, of all people, with your undying hatred for Tanny, are now trying to heap the blame of every single roster move you were criticizing Tanny for just months ago, now onto Rex, really gives nobody any reason to think your position has even the slightest be of validity to it.

 

I'm far from a defender of Rex's; I certainly wouldn't have been heartbroken to see him fired this offseason and wouldn't be surprised if I'll be calling for his head by the time this season is all said and done, but that still does nothing to justify this fabricated garbage you're trying to sell.

[kay_gee]

Yeah but that's all after they won 4 rings in 5 years. 

 

ARod was a trade, and one that they took from the Red Sox as bosses do. Clemens came in 1999 after 2 WS victories in 3 years. Plus, their payroll advantage really only starts exploding in 2002 when they from +<300K to a 17 million dollar gap. 

 

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#98_payroll

 

 

Wasn't Arod a trade where the Yankees had to take on most of his salary? I think T0m's point is that most teams couldn't ever dream of that. At the height of Rodriguez's latest contract in 2010, Rodriguez made $32 million by himself. In 2010, the Pittsburgh Pirates had a team payroll of $35 million.

 

ETA: and in 2013, Arod makes $29 million by himself, which is more than half of the San Diego Padres team payroll of $55 million.

 

Let's not pretend that being able to spend enormous sums of money on whatever player they've wanted isn't an advantage.

[SenorGato]

Wasn't Arod a trade where the Yankees had to take on most of his salary? I think T0m's point is that most teams couldn't ever dream of that. At the height of Rodriguez's latest contract in 2010, Rodriguez made $32 million by himself. In 2010, the Pittsburgh Pirates had a team payroll of $35 million.

 

Red Sox were willing to take on the salary. The Mets had their shot when he was a FA and wussed out. 

 

Honestly, any team in baseball that wouldn't do the first ARod deal is crazy. Any that says they couldn't is probably lying. 

[T0mShane]

.

[slats]

Mangini's 9-7, on the heels of a 4-12, was a step back to legitimacy that started great and ended terribly. 70% Great + 30% Terrible= "good."

Calling it, "Mangini's 9-7," is ridiculous. It was Brett Favre's 8-3, and Mangini's 1-4 on the heels of a 4-12 season. Mangini was horrendous as a coach. That's why no one hires him to do it anymore.

[T0mShane]

Calling it, "Mangini's 9-7," is ridiculous. It was Brett Favre's 8-3, and Mangini's 1-4 on the heels of a 4-12 season. Mangini was horrendous as a coach. That's why no one hires him to do it anymore.

If you're going to discount a coach's success because of who his QB is, then Brian Billick is the best coach in history. Ironically, he's never been hired again, either.

[slats]

If you're going to discount a coach's success because of who his QB is, then Brian Billick is the best coach in history. Ironically, he's never been hired again, either.

Billick came to Baltimore as an alleged offensive genius, and won a Super Bowl with a team without an offense. At least Rex is good at what he was supposed to be good at.

But calling Mangini's 9-7 with a HoF QB a "good" coaching job, and Rex's 8-8 with maybe the worst starting QB in the NFL, "awful," is ridiculous. Mangini was Rich Kotite bad, except that he was bad while being the disciplinarian coach that's in vogue with Jet fans this season. He's lucky Brett didn't have a season ending injury during warmups.

[Jetsfan80]

Billick came to Baltimore as an alleged offensive genius, and won a Super Bowl with a team without an offense. At least Rex is good at what he was supposed to be good at.

But calling Mangini's 9-7 with a HoF QB a "good" coaching job, and Rex's 8-8 with maybe the worst starting QB in the NFL, "awful," is ridiculous. Mangini was Rich Kotite bad, except that he was bad while being the disciplinarian coach that's in vogue with Jet fans this season. He's lucky Brett didn't have a season ending injury during warmups.

 

I'll preface this by saying that Rex deserves a good bit of blame for drafting, extending and sticking with Mark Sanchez (though its not like he had other options in any of the 4 seasons, and the drafting/extending part was still Tannenbaum's final call in the end, which is why he's gone and not Rex, yet).  But I laugh at the idea that just about any other coach in the league could have squeezed out 34 wins with Sanchez at QB.  Rex's extreme loyalty is a character flaw and it may well end up the reason he gets fired.  But you can't deny he got the absolute most out of a team without a QB.  Tom refuses to give Rex any credit for this even when he's admitted its a QB-driven league. 

[sirlancemehlot]

I'll preface this by saying that Rex deserves a good bit of blame for drafting, extending and sticking with Mark Sanchez (though its not like he had other options in any of the 4 seasons, and the drafting/extending part was still Tannenbaum's final call in the end, which is why he's gone and not Rex, yet).  But I laugh at the idea that just about any other coach in the league could have squeezed out 34 wins with Sanchez at QB.  Rex's extreme loyalty is a character flaw and it may well end up the reason he gets fired.  But you can't deny he got the absolute most out of a team without a QB.  Tom refuses to give Rex any credit for this even when he's admitted its a QB-driven league. 

The thing is, he didn't succeed by carrying the team to two winning records and AFCCG in spite of SAnchez, as everyone wants to argue.  The Jets offense was good. The line was great.  The receivers were above average.  There was a legitimate running game and blocking from TE's.  The offense, with or without Sanchez, was a very solid unit.  Fast forward two years.  The Oline is a weakness, there is no legitimate TE, no established running back and the WR corps is far below average.  Yet every draft since 2009 has been defense heavy.  Three first rd DL picks and two first rd CB back picks.  second rounders were Hill and Ducasse.  Rex gets credit for the putrid product on the field.  Because it devolved badly under his watch.

[JustInFudge]

Hahaha.  T0mShane getting bitch slapped by everyone over a delicious cup of coffee is a great way to start the morning!

[sirlancemehlot]

Hahaha.  T0mShane getting bitch slapped by everyone over a delicious cup of coffee is a great way to start the morning!

Back in 2009 I got beaten down by the entire board because I thought Tanny was a bum and his philosophy would fail in the long run despite short-term success.  Everyone came out od the woodwork to flick boogers at me and point at the village idiot.  The argument I outlined then played out exactly as I'd predicted.  Sometimes the unpopular stance is worth taking if you believe in it.

[Matt39]

  But you can't deny he got the absolute most out of a team without a QB.  

 

Meh. 2011 and last year he sure didnt. He had his hands all over this roster, so he gets the blame too. He got everything out of the 2010 team, except the Steeler game where the entire organization laid an egg.

 

2009 should have been better than 9-7, but oh well. It ended on a great run.

[JustInFudge]

Back in 2009 I got beaten down by the entire board because I thought Tanny was a bum and his philosophy would fail in the long run despite short-term success.  Everyone came out od the woodwork to flick boogers at me and point at the village idiot.  The argument I outlined then played out exactly as I'd predicted.  Sometimes the unpopular stance is worth taking if you believe in it.

 

Typical Jets fan, bragging about predicting that the Jets will suck.  Its like going into a Friday the 13th movie and bragging because you know Jason would die again.

 

FTR, there is nothing unpopular about his stance.  I'd venture to say 85% of this board wants him fired. 

[sirlancemehlot]

Typical Jets fan, bragging about predicting that the Jets will suck.  Its like going into a Friday the 13th movie and bragging because you know Jason would die again.

 

FTR, there is nothing unpopular about his stance.  I'd venture to say 85% of this board wants him fired. 

the Mangini-got-the-shaft portion of his stance is very unpopular

I wasnt predicting yhe Jets will suck.  I was lamenting the one and two year rentals in lieu of drafting a solid roster.  You kmow, the same thing everyone else complained about two years after telling me to STFUP

[JustInFudge]

the Mangini-got-the-shaft portion of his stance is very unpopular

I wasnt predicting yhe Jets will suck.  I was lamenting the one and two year rentals in lieu of drafting a solid roster.  You kmow, the same thing everyone else complained about two years after telling me to STFUP

Fair enough.  I'm never arguing with you again!

[T0mShane]

Back in 2009 I got beaten down by the entire board because I thought Tanny was a bum and his philosophy would fail in the long run despite short-term success. Everyone came out od the woodwork to flick boogers at me and point at the village idiot. The argument I outlined then played out exactly as I'd predicted. Sometimes the unpopular stance is worth taking if you believe in it.

Don't mind JiF. He's only fake-endorsing Rex.

[JustInFudge]

Don't mind JiF. He's only fake-endorsing Rex.

 

One player I faked endorsed, Sanchez.  And everyone but you saw the sarcasm considering I've been one of his biggest haters since the day he was drafted.  

 

Rex Ryan is god. 

[Jetsfan80]

The thing is, he didn't succeed by carrying the team to two winning records and AFCCG in spite of SAnchez, as everyone wants to argue.  The Jets offense was good. The line was great.  The receivers were above average.  There was a legitimate running game and blocking from TE's.  The offense, with or without Sanchez, was a very solid unit.  Fast forward two years.  The Oline is a weakness, there is no legitimate TE, no established running back and the WR corps is far below average.  Yet every draft since 2009 has been defense heavy.  Three first rd DL picks and two first rd CB back picks.  second rounders were Hill and Ducasse.  Rex gets credit for the putrid product on the field.  Because it devolved badly under his watch.

 

 

Meh. 2011 and last year he sure didnt. He had his hands all over this roster, so he gets the blame too. He got everything out of the 2010 team, except the Steeler game where the entire organization laid an egg.

 

2009 should have been better than 9-7, but oh well. It ended on a great run.

 

You can only hide the QB for so long.  We overspent in 2010 because of the whole "small window" philosophy Tannebaum seemed to have.  Once we had decided to put most of our money into the "big 4" core guys (Mangold, Revis, Ferguson, Harris) and no longer could afford the Kris Jenkins' and Calvin Pace's of the world, it was only natural that the talent would decline. 

 

The problem was that, when that happens, teams with franchise QB's typically depend on their most important player improving and making up for a team's deficiencies.  We couldn't afford to continue to provide Sanchez with Pro Bowlers all over the place via free agency, and all of Tannenbaums trade-ups in the draft came back to bite us.  We had to depend on Sanchez maturing and become the guy.  He didn't, and that's the # 1 reason for the 2011 and 2012 disappointments. 

[Matt39]

The 2011 and 2012 teams were lazily built at best. The roster, especially on offense....made no sense.

[dbatesman]

You can only hide the QB for so long.

 

If anything, Rex deserves extra credit for dealing with Sanchez, who he clearly hates and who was clearly foisted on him without his consent.

[Jetsfan80]

If anything, Rex deserves extra credit for dealing with Sanchez, who he clearly hates and who was clearly foisted on him without his consent.

 

As bad as Sanchez was, what were his other options?  Mark Brunell?  Sanchez was expected to be the franchise guy, and his 1st 2 years the team won.  Certainly Rex had opportunities in 2011 and '12 to request that Tannenbaum go in another direction, but even people here still felt that Sanchez still had a shot to turn things around, even after the '11 season.  Rex believed in the kid too much and it came back to bite him.  Still doesn't make Rex himself a failure of a coach.

[glenn212]

Show me another coach who gets to take over a team that had a winning record 2 out of the previous 3 years like Rex did.

It doesn't exist. Mangini had a HUGE say in all players that were drafted, good and bad while he and Tanny were here. Its not an exact science but of the Eric/Tanny or Rex/Tanny who's drafts were better..You can't even argue that. If you check Rex retained about 60 or 70% of Eric's coaches the first 2 years..smart by Rex.

 

Mangini managed to crush The Pats and defending Super Bowl champs and should of beat the Jets with a roster in Cleveland that was well..pathetic..and also the Steelers..Thats coaching..Woody wants headlines not substance, he got just what he asked for.

 

Harbaugh is a very smart head coach and knows that surrounding yourself with smart people is how you stay successful

[dbatesman]

As bad as Sanchez was, what were his other options?  Mark Brunell?  Sanchez was expected to be the franchise guy, and his 1st 2 years the team won.  Certainly Rex had opportunities in 2011 and '12 to request that Tannenbaum go in another direction, but even people here still felt that Sanchez still had a shot to turn things around, even after the '11 season.  Rex believed in the kid too much and it came back to bite him.  Still doesn't make Rex himself a failure of a coach.

 

Great. It also doesn't justify giving him extra credit for having to "hide" a guy he wanted to draft and then continued to play in contravention of common sense and simple human decency.

[kay_gee]

The 2011 and 2012 teams were lazily built at best. The roster, especially on offense....made no sense.

 

 

This is somehow the the simplest, most accurate description of those rosters. "Made no sense."

 

But how can you best determine your roster when you aren't even 100% sure what their football strategy is? From "Ground and pound" to "Oh we were too dedicated to ground and pound." Like, what?