Has "The Formula" worked before?

[RutgersJetFan]

My favorite argument. For every guy who makes dramatic improvement, there's 10 who suck to begin with, and keep sucking.

We can't let go of Mangini, not with how Jeff Fischer worked out.

[ZachEY]

Wouldn't any move be blind hope though? Even getting Peyton Manning at this point would be blind hope - he's 35 and coming off a major injury which may cause his career to end. There's no guarantee he's the same guy if he comes back.

Manning you've seen perform at a high level, and you don't trade for him without working him out.

You hope to get Peyton of old. You're dealing with a Top 10 QB if you get better than 50% of Peyton of old.

[Klecko73isGod]

Manning you've seen perform at a high level, and you don't trade for him without working him out.

You hope to get Peyton of old. You're dealing with a Top 10 QB if you get better than 50% of Peyton of old.

I think its a moot point because I don't think Peyton is going anywhere. He's playing for the Colts or he's retiring.

[ZachEY]

I think its a moot point because I don't think Peyton is going anywhere. He's playing for the Colts or he's retiring.

Um... You brought it up?

[CTM]

Um... You brought it up?

it was a trap!

[Larz]

You really think that will stop me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5ZAOIAK4BQ&feature=related

wow, you have it bad, lol

[SenorGato]

So I've been pondering...what if they just waited through the bullsh*t with Sanchez? You had to figure if he's going to break out at all it'd be between years 3-5, and we're just a little over half done with 3.

Didn't some of us out there see the Giants with Eli? Eli was the EXACT same way as a young QB. He showed talent and the ability to win at the NFL in little bursts that sometimes resulted in a comeback. Now the same guys I know who used to trash Eli ("he just LOOKS like an idiot!" and etc) now open it up with, "yeah, Eli's elite." It took the guy almost a decade to get that in this douchebag (I'm sorry "hardcore/fanatical/") sports town, and he's been carrying that offense over there for 3 years now at least PLUS helped win a SB.

*Moral time music*

To be honest, the fun in it for me is watching this young QB grow up. RIght now he is the little ugly duckling, the larvae version of Mothra and/or Battra, Godzilla Jr, the retard version of Godzilla Jr. from the hippie years...There should be joy in that because we, as the overly invested fans of his football team, are somewhat like his parents. We work all the time and never see him. Hire a whole bunch of other people to raise him. Check up on him once in a while and get pissed when he messes it up. Blame the help for any issues. You know?

[greeniemeanie]

So I've been pondering...what if they just waited through the bullsh*t with Sanchez? You had to figure if he's going to break out at all it'd be between years 3-5, and we're just a little over half done with 3.

Didn't some of us out there see the Giants with Eli? Eli was the EXACT same way as a young QB. He showed talent and the ability to win at the NFL in little bursts that sometimes resulted in a comeback. Now the same guys I know who used to trash Eli ("he just LOOKS like an idiot!" and etc) now open it up with, "yeah, Eli's elite." It took the guy almost a decade to get that in this douchebag (I'm sorry "hardcore/fanatical/") sports town, and he's been carrying that offense over there for 3 years now at least PLUS helped win a SB.

*Moral time music*

To be honest, the fun in it for me is watching this young QB grow up. RIght now he is the little ugly duckling, the larvae version of Mothra and/or Battra, Godzilla Jr, the retard version of Godzilla Jr. from the hippie years...There should be joy in that because we, as the overly invested fans of his football team, are somewhat like his parents. We work all the time and never see him. Hire a whole bunch of other people to raise him. Check up on him once in a while and get pissed when he messes it up. Blame the help for any issues. You know?

Great post!!!

[slats]

Right, but we do know that OC changes rarely result in bringing around QB's who are this bad.

Is he really this bad, or are you being a little hyperbolic? I think he's just still mediocre, but he has shown modest statistical improvement this year despite the fact that his OL and running game have largely abandoned him.

All arguments for both are based in potential, arguments against are based on results. All in all it just depends on how long one prefers to hold onto blind, stupid hope.

The vast majority of the blind, stupid hope I continue put in Sanchez is based on the fact that he's almost certainly going to be the Jets' starter next season. I'll probably hold onto it for at least that length of time.

In the meantime, I don't see much evidence of Sanchez getting good coaching. Might as well do something there. There wasn't hard evidence that we could effectively fake a moon landing until we did that, either.

[Sperm Edwards]

Its funny how Sanchez gets held to a different standard than anyone else by all his supporters. He was erratic his first 2 seasons, much like most young QB's but he was still infinitly better than Sanchez.

His 3rd season, when most QB's come into their own, he threw for 4500yrds, 28TD's, 63% comp. Dude was a monster. Team sucked, but he was a stud.

That said, he's not an example of this because he swtiched teams. To EY question: I honestly cant recall this ever happening.

You're nuts. Teams would be lining up to give us two 1st round picks for Sanchez, after his 3rd season, like Chicago did with Cutler. No one cared that Cutler & the Denver offense were chasing a defense that gave up 30 points more often than not. Hell, Hermie's Chiefs hung 33 on them one game. I'm sure Sanchez would have had at least 4500 passing yards that year if he was in Denver.

And also, to EY's question, are we forgetting Neil Lomax??? (I freely admit I had to look that one up because it's pretty much never happened). Same HC, Same DC, new OC (Rod Dowhower). The offense goes from 15 ppg in 1982 to 23 ppg in 1983 to 26 ppg in 1984. Overnight, Lomax changes from Kellen Clemens into Dan Fouts. Roy Green changes from an afterthought into a back-to-back first team all-pro. Then Dowhower leaves and the offense drops back to averaging 13-18 ppg for the next couple of seasons.

About the best example I could find, and I had to go back almost 30 years to find it.

EY owes me a coke.

[Kleckineau]

Why anyone thinks MS would improve with another OC is beyond me.

Does anyone here think he could run a Mike Martz or Peyton Manning type "O"?

BS calls simple plays because MS sucks. Arent you tired of him staring at his primary reciever like a dog staring at a bone in your hand?

A more complex offensive scheme and his completion % might go to 40%

[RutgersJetFan]

Is he really this bad, or are you being a little hyperbolic? I think he's just still mediocre, but he has shown modest statistical improvement this year despite the fact that his OL and running game have largely abandoned him.

The vast majority of the blind, stupid hope I continue put in Sanchez is based on the fact that he's almost certainly going to be the Jets' starter next season. I'll probably hold onto it for at least that length of time.

In the meantime, I don't see much evidence of Sanchez getting good coaching. Might as well do something there. There wasn't hard evidence that we could effectively fake a moon landing until we did that, either.

Manbearpig.

[Jet27]

So I've been pondering...what if they just waited through the bullsh*t with Sanchez? You had to figure if he's going to break out at all it'd be between years 3-5, and we're just a little over half done with 3.

Didn't some of us out there see the Giants with Eli? Eli was the EXACT same way as a young QB. He showed talent and the ability to win at the NFL in little bursts that sometimes resulted in a comeback. Now the same guys I know who used to trash Eli ("he just LOOKS like an idiot!" and etc) now open it up with, "yeah, Eli's elite." It took the guy almost a decade to get that in this douchebag (I'm sorry "hardcore/fanatical/") sports town, and he's been carrying that offense over there for 3 years now at least PLUS helped win a SB.

*Moral time music*

To be honest, the fun in it for me is watching this young QB grow up. RIght now he is the little ugly duckling, the larvae version of Mothra and/or Battra, Godzilla Jr, the retard version of Godzilla Jr. from the hippie years...There should be joy in that because we, as the overly invested fans of his football team, are somewhat like his parents. We work all the time and never see him. Hire a whole bunch of other people to raise him. Check up on him once in a while and get pissed when he messes it up. Blame the help for any issues. You know?

Nicely put, I have said we should give the kid some slack. And as you said he right at the cusp of 3 1/2 years...I think it comes down to these next 5 games, and his off season workouts...I also believe and something is telling me that if Manning is healthy, he would love to come here...It would be the biggest thing in New York since King Kong Climbed up the Empire State Building

[slats]

Manbearpig.

If you're a climate change denier, I may have to reassess.

[ZachEY]

You're nuts. Teams would be lining up to give us two 1st round picks for Sanchez, after his 3rd season, like Chicago did with Cutler. No one cared that Cutler & the Denver offense were chasing a defense that gave up 30 points more often than not. Hell, Hermie's Chiefs hung 33 on them one game. I'm sure Sanchez would have had at least 4500 passing yards that year if he was in Denver.

And also, to EY's question, are we forgetting Neil Lomax??? (I freely admit I had to look that one up because it's pretty much never happened). Same HC, Same DC, new OC (Rod Dowhower). The offense goes from 15 ppg in 1982 to 23 ppg in 1983 to 26 ppg in 1984. Overnight, Lomax changes from Kellen Clemens into Dan Fouts. Roy Green changes from an afterthought into a back-to-back first team all-pro. Then Dowhower leaves and the offense drops back to averaging 13-18 ppg for the next couple of seasons.

About the best example I could find, and I had to go back almost 30 years to find it.

EY owes me a coke.

Is that the Dr. Seuss guy?

[SMC]

Yeah. That's fine. Fire Schotty. I said they should do it during the 3 game losing streak.

The concept I'm trying to look at is if this move historically matters. There's not a lot of support that it does. We've got "maybe Eli" and maybe Troy Aikman 20 years ago.

I'd love a reason to believe that "it's the playcalling" is actually more than blind hope.

It's not the "playcalling" why people what to get rid of Schitty.

It's the play design, the concepts, the coaching, and the playcalling.

If it was just the playcalling, everyone would be clamoring to strip Schitty of playcalling and be ok with him staying on.

Plus, as I've said, there is not historical precedent for what you propose. None of these other OCs have failed for 6 yrs with 4 different QBs.

[LionelRichie]

Sometimes an OC and a QB just jive well and are great together. Some of it is probably system, some of it coaching, and some just personality.

Aikman / Turner

Brees / Payton

Young / Walsh

Vinny T / Weis

Gannon / Gruden

The common denominator is getting the best OC you can get, not necessarily the talent at QB. The Jets need a top tier OC and then they can get a true read on Sanchez. I don't think Schott is that guy.

[Aten]

The common denominator is getting the best OC you can get, not necessarily the talent at QB.

Sanchez must have coke in his jock. This is absurd.

[Bleedin Green]

Sanchez must have coke in his jock. This is absurd.

Obviously the one thing Sanchez has actually learned from Schotty is how to keep your job and have some people absolve you of any blame for your own ineptitude no matter how blatantly obvious it is that you suck at your job.

[Klecko73isGod]

Nicely put, I have said we should give the kid some slack. And as you said he right at the cusp of 3 1/2 years...I think it comes down to these next 5 games, and his off season workouts...I also believe and something is telling me that if Manning is healthy, he would love to come here...It would be the biggest thing in New York since King Kong Climbed up the Empire State Building

You know that was just a movie, right?

[Bleedin Green]

You know that was just a movie, right?

A movie based on a true story... duh.

[SMC]

Obviously the one thing Sanchez has actually learned from Schotty is how to keep your job and have some people absolve you of any blame for your own ineptitude no matter how blatantly obvious it is that you suck at your job.

Sandusky should've kept his job and PSU should've just fired McCreary for not reporting it properly

[Klecko73isGod]

Sometimes an OC and a QB just jive well and are great together. Some of it is probably system, some of it coaching, and some just personality.

Aikman / Turner

Brees / Payton

Young / Walsh

Vinny T / Weis

Gannon / Gruden

The common denominator is getting the best OC you can get, not necessarily the talent at QB. The Jets need a top tier OC and then they can get a true read on Sanchez. I don't think Schott is that guy.

Young had his best years with Mike Shanahan as his OC, including his SB year. Young was never the regular starter while Walsh was there, Montana was the only fulltime starter Walsh ever had with the Niners.

Bill Callahan was actually Gannon's OC in Oakland.

I assume you picked these particular QBs on your list for this reason but for those who didn't see the connection all of those QB were bad early in their career only to flourish in different offenses.

[JohnnyHector]

I assume you picked these particular QBs on your list for this reason but for those who didn't see the connection all of those QB were bad early in their career only to flourish in different offenses.

And all but Aikman did so on different teams with completely different personnel.

[Klecko73isGod]

And all but Aikman did so on different teams with completely different personnel.

Look at how different the personnel is on this team now from just Sanchez's rookie year - 2/5 of the O-line, completely different receiving corps from the first game of his rookie year other than TE, only one RB that was on the roster that year is still on the team.

With the current rate of roster turnover in the NFL, I'm not so sure the same team thing is relevant.

[RutgersJetFan]

If you're a climate change denier, I may have to reassess.

The answer is yes. It's not hyperbolic, the numbers say he's this bad. Watching him play says he's this bad. Shonn Greene or Brian Schottenheimer have nothing to do with the fact that some of those throws he made on Sunday were completely inexcusable. One can blame the coordinator for some stuff, and that's fine, the results that he's produced are largely unimpressive. And the whole "he's just an OC" argument doesn't hold water with this team because Rex and Schott are more or less each 1/2 of a head coach at this point. However, when it comes to Sanchez specifically, the fact that Lewin's been spot on puts to bed any sort of correlation that the hopefuls think that can argue but can't even measure.

[SenorGato]

The answer is yes. It's not hyperbolic, the numbers say he's this bad. Watching him play says he's this bad. Shonn Greene or Brian Schottenheimer have nothing to do with the fact that some of those throws he made on Sunday were completely inexcusable. One can blame the coordinator for some stuff, and that's fine, the results that he's produced are largely unimpressive. And the whole "he's just an OC" argument doesn't hold water with this team because Rex and Schott are more or less each 1/2 of a head coach at this point. However, when it comes to Sanchez specifically, the fact that Lewin's been spot on puts to bed any sort of correlation that the hopefuls think that can argue but can't even measure.

Not to ruin an OC/Offense thread with a tangent, but am I the only one who is actually annoyed by this? I'm not even sure I can articulate why...

[THE ILK]

The Gato Schotty post, cat pic, Godzilla refrence, formular works better.

[SMC]

Not to ruin an OC/Offense thread with a tangent, but am I the only one who is actually annoyed by this? I'm not even sure I can articulate why...

Annoyed because it's true, or annoyed because Rutgers said it and you don't think it's true?

Because I agree with Rutgers. Rex needs to finally be the HC of the entire team and not just the defense.

[SenorGato]

Annoyed because it's true, or annoyed because Rutgers said it and you don't think it's true?

Because I agree with Rutgers. Rex needs to finally be the HC of the entire team and not just the defense.

Annoyed because its completely and utterly true, but somehow not a thing reflects poorly on Rex. If Rex actually dislikes Schitty/thinks he sucks at his job the guy there's no way he lacks respect for him because the guy has essentially served as the Kevlar vest for two non-complete noobs who otherwise would be completely and utterly overwhelmed.

Like Mark Sanchez the Jets have done everything in their power to set Rex up for success. Great teams...truly great teams...are HC and QB driven and they're trying to force the issue there...I'm curious to see the development of that in time because both the HC and QB have the same scapegoat.

Oh and just to make it clear theyre not really screwing Schitty either...All that probably plays into why he's such a highly paid and long tenured asst. coach. It really only screws him on surface rep, but even then if you do your research it's only surface rep...which is for fan level analysis only.

[RutgersJetFan]

Annoyed because it's true, or annoyed because Rutgers said it and you don't think it's true?

When did I become SAR?

[slats]

The answer is yes. It's not hyperbolic, the numbers say he's this bad.

The numbers actually say he's middling. He's an 80.9 passer, throwing more TD's than int's. Nothing to write home about -certainly- but just not this bad.

Watching him play says he's this bad. Shonn Greene or Brian Schottenheimer have nothing to do with the fact that some of those throws he made on Sunday were completely inexcusable. One can blame the coordinator for some stuff, and that's fine, the results that he's produced are largely unimpressive. And the whole "he's just an OC" argument doesn't hold water with this team because Rex and Schott are more or less each 1/2 of a head coach at this point. However, when it comes to Sanchez specifically, the fact that Lewin's been spot on puts to bed any sort of correlation that the hopefuls think that can argue but can't even measure.

No one gets more blame for near interceptions, or less credit for easy TD's than Sanchez. Every QB has those.

I'm not absolving the QB at all. I'm looking at it pragmatically. He's definitely not progressing at the rate I'd like, yet his $50M contract tells me he's going to be here next season. That's the bottom line for me. So what are the Jets to do? Regardless of "the formula"'s track record, I think the team has to make a move with his coaches. With his teachers. I think Sanchez has some genuine physical ability, he needs a coach who can get it out of him. He needs to get thru his reads faster. He needs to learn to lead his goddam receivers. There are definitely significant issues with the player, and they need to find out if they're correctable.

I agree that it's a problem that Rex isn't the head coach of the whole team. But it's really not like Schott should be so entrenched. He's been sniped at by a number of offensive starters. No one is going to shed a tear if he's let go. They need to let him go.

[RutgersJetFan]

The numbers actually say he's middling. He's an 80.9 passer, throwing more TD's than int's. Nothing to write home about -certainly- but just not this bad.

Oh stop it. You know damn well why this is conflated. He went 4/1 last Sunday and even the biggest homers on the board agreed that was one of his worst performances of the year.

[SenorGato]

Oh stop it. You know damn well why this is conflated. He went 4/1 last Sunday and even the biggest homers on the board agreed that was one of his worst performances of the year.

Well to be fair everyone here expects sunshine and lollipops for every line. I'm not saying Sanchez didn't suck last week. I'm saying bullsh*t becomes a big deal because it helps pass the time.

[slats]

Oh stop it. You know damn well why this is conflated. He went 4/1 last Sunday and even the biggest homers on the board agreed that was one of his worst performances of the year.

Stop what? It was a poor game. No one denies this. It hurt him statistically on the year in comp % and ypa. But even without it's positive td:int ratio, Sanchez was still throwing more TD's than int's with a passer rating above 80.