The Dolphins have a serious bullying problem?

[Matt39]

Yes, because the "bad word" in question is "n***er."

 

So basically to you Incognito is Riley Cooper?

[dbatesman]

So basically to you Incognito is Riley Cooper?

 

That's cute, but no.

[Matt39]

That's cute, but no.

 

I was being serious.

 

Incognito leaving a drunk VM to a guy he thought he was buddies with- we're not allowed to determine context? Even when the Dolphin players were ok with him using the word? If you listen to the message its clear it wasnt threatening. Since Dbatesman disagrees with it though- Incognito is automatically guilty? School me.

 

With Cooper, there was clearly no context. That was hate.

[T0mShane]

It's not implausibile at all. But look at Hartline's interview today. Tyson Clabo's comments. These guys dont strike me as imbalanced dudes. Hartline certainly is an outcast in his own right within a locker room because of the position he plays- he would have known if something was out of bounds. These guys went on the record today for something they believed in- i'll take the word of many over the guy we havent even heard from yet. Everyone's drawing their own conclusions...apparently mine arent exactly kosher on JN lol.

With how these guys have reacted(basically blindsided) I lean more towards Martin being a phony more so than a guy who suddenly had a mental breakdown that caused him to check into hospital only to be flow home by his big wig lawyer rents.

There is no worse crime in a locker room than quitting. You can beat your wife, you can be a crackhead, you can kill people in a DUI crash and still be accepted. But the second you quit on your teammates, you're toast. It doesn't sound like Martin was particularly beloved in that locker room anyway. He's a shy, quiet nerd from all accounts. The dudes on the team are going to protect the team for obvious reasons.

[Matt39]

There is no worse crime in a locker room than quitting. You can beat your wife, you can be a crackhead, you can kill people in a DUI crash and still be accepted. But the second you quit on your teammates, you're toast. It doesn't sound like Martin was particularly beloved in that locker room anyway. He's a shy, quiet nerd from all accounts. The dudes on the team are going to protect the team for obvious reasons.

 

It doesnt sound like Martin had been ostracized though. According to teammates him and Incognito had hung out a lot.

[Matt39]

Also- finally a fair article

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw

[The Crusher]

You would think that a team that switched to this homo erotic logo would be way more tolerant. This.... fat guy does.

 

[dbatesman]

I was being serious.

So was I.

 

Incognito leaving a drunk VM to a guy he thought he was buddies with

Or, claimed to be buddies with after being suspended for abusing him. Six of one, really.

 

we're not allowed to determine context?

Says the guy who just implied that every white meathead who drops the n-word is like every other white meathead who's ever dropped the n-word.

 

Even when the Dolphin players were ok with him using the word? If you listen to the message its clear it wasnt threatening.

Clearly it was threatening to Martin. Whether that's because he was abused or because he's sick or because he's setting up a lawsuit, I have no idea. The only people who know for sure are Martin and, apparently, you.

 

Since Dbatesman disagrees with it though- Incognito is automatically guilty? School me.

Since Matt wants to make some tortured point about litigiousness and class resentment, Martin is automatically a venal liar? This school sucks.

 

With Cooper, there was clearly no context. That was hate.

So? Cooper's trash too. This could not possibly be less relevant.

[T0mShane]

It doesnt sound like Martin had been ostracized though. According to teammates him and Incognito had hung out a lot.

Tannehill and Dave DeCastro (played with him at Stanford) both said today that Martin is a "quiet guy" who "comes to work every day and does his job." He doesn't sound like he's super popular, and he definitely doesn't seem like the type of guy to roll hard with dudes like Pouncey and Incognito.

Obviously, there's gonna be a lot more coming out on this, and I think it's going to end up that Martin got all kinds of emo after one too many weeks of life in the Dolphins locker room. And I think it'll come out that Incognito being Incognito was just a part of it.

[The Crusher]

There is no worse crime in a locker room than quitting. You can beat your wife, you can be a crackhead, you can kill people in a DUI crash and still be accepted. But the second you quit on your teammates, you're toast. It doesn't sound like Martin was particularly beloved in that locker room anyway. He's a shy, quiet nerd from all accounts. The dudes on the team are going to protect the team for obvious reasons.

 

 

:Licking anothers guys nuts is pretty bad too.  So I was told.

[T0mShane]

:Licking anothers guys nuts is pretty bad too. So I was told.

True story: Charles Haley used to get so pumped up for games that he'd whip his dick out and start jerking off in his locker.

[Matt39]

 

Huh? Teammates said they were friends. 

No I actually never said that. Please quote where I said that.Within the Dolphins locker room- black players didnt take issue with him using the word. Your opinion on him using it is basically irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Right- so threatening he was passing it around laughing with teammates about it. Apparently Brian Hartline's statement doesnt hold water to you. It was so threatening he waited 6 months to use it as evidence....the same VM he was laughing about. Got it. 

 

 

Considering the timing of it all- it seems that way. You must have skipped deductive reasoning class.

 

 

 

I literally have no idea what this means.

[Larz]

Also- finally a fair article

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw

 

 

"So yes, it’s fair to ask: Did Martin go AWOL without realizing the financial consequences, and now his people — most likely his agents — are trying to clean up the mess?"

 

holy herp a derp batman, what a joke

 

 

the premise here is that 2 harvard grads and a stanford grad didn't understand the contract he signed and made up a very public lie without even realizing the story would get media attention and be investigated 

 

that's just doesn't make sense on any level

[The Crusher]

True story: Charles Haley used to get so pumped up for games that he'd whip his dick out and start jerking off in his locker.

 Big deal. I do that in line at Old Country Buffet all the time.   One of many reasons no one ever ask me to pass the gravy.

[Matt39]

Tannehill and Dave DeCastro (played with him at Stanford) both said today that Martin is a "quiet guy" who "comes to work every day and does his job." He doesn't sound like he's super popular, and he definitely doesn't seem like the type of guy to roll hard with dudes like Pouncey and Incognito.

Obviously, there's gonna be a lot more coming out on this, and I think it's going to end up that Martin got all kinds of emo after one too many weeks of life in the Dolphins locker room. And I think it'll come out that Incognito being Incognito was just a part of it.

 

People are painting this as Martin sat in the corner by himself at lunch while O'Doyle poured his chocolate milk over his head on a daily basis.

[rillo]

[dbatesman]

Huh? Teammates said they were friends.

Maybe they were.

 

No I actually never said that. Please quote where I said that.

implied ≠ said

 

Within the Dolphins locker room- black players didnt take issue with him using the word. Your opinion on him using it is basically irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The matter at hand was you asking me what made Incognito the villain. I replied that it was his use of the n-word. I thought it was implied that you were asking and I was offering my opinion.

 

Right- so threatening he was passing it around laughing with teammates about it. Apparently Brian Hartline's statement doesnt hold water to you.

Right now, it holds precisely as much water to me as Martin's player misconduct complaint.

 

Considering the timing of it all- it seems that way. You must have skipped deductive reasoning class.

I was sick the day they went over PFT comments as an evidentiary standard.

 

I literally have no idea what this means.

...sorry?

[Matt39]

 

 

Maybe they were.

 

well that's a pretty big component to the story now isnt it?

 

 

 

implied ≠ said

 

Oh. So you have the ability to deduce implication yet cant grasp the meaning of context. Hmm.

 

 

 

The matter at hand was you asking me what made Incognito the villain. I replied that it was his use of the n-word. I thought it was implied that you were asking and I was offering my opinion.

 

If Incognito were black would you take issue with him using the word? I'll try and explain context again to you if you'd like-but I guess that doesnt fit your narrative.

 

 

 

Right now, it holds precisely as much water to me as Martin's player misconduct complaint.

 

Gotcha. So the only thing that holds water right now is Incognito is the bad guy and 100% to blame here no matter what anyone else within the Dolphins organization says.

 

 

 

I was sick the day they went over PFT comments as an evidentiary standard.

 

As opposed to dbatesman's comments on JN? I forgot my surroundings I suppose. JN= The NY Times. I bet the NY Post makes you hyperventilate if someone else's fair comments are immediately thrown out the window simply because it appeared on that evil smut tabloid PFT. Who cares where it came from? I figured you'd know better to attack the source before the actual content. Well actually, maybe not.

 

 

 

sorry?

 

I find it funny you cant see the difference in context between Cooper's use of the word vs Incognitos VM. But those who argue with emotion over logic tend to ignore context I guess.

[Matt39]

 

There's another thing. According to a source close to Incognito, the transcript of the voice mail is not complete. It omits the last line.

After Incognito went on this apparent diatribe, his voice softens, and matter-of-factly he says, "Ok, call me back."

And ... Martin called him back, the source said.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/#storylink=cpy

 

[dbatesman]

The quote feature just projectile vomited all over my screen (seriously, Max: wtf), so I'll just do this all at once:

 

This is a he-said/he-said situation. I believe it's possible that Richie Incognito is a vicious bully who should be banned from the league. I believe it's possible that Jonathan Martin is too soft for the NFL. I believe it's possible that Martin is faking the whole thing. I believe it's possible that Martin and Incognito were friends. I believe it's possible that they seemed like friends and Martin actually lived in terror of Incognito and his other teammates. I believe any combination of those facts, and a dozen others besides, could be true. When I said Hartline's statement held as much water for me as Martin's complaint, I meant that, given the amount of information we have right now, both mean exactly dick. You are the only person evincing any degree of certitude about this situation.

 

As for your friend at PFT, I care where it came from, because in this case, the content is the source. To be clear: you're gnashing your teeth about context and deductive reasoning even as you ferociously defend some anonymous internet dipsh*t for no discernable reason beyond confirmation bias. I just wish I could get the same benefit of the doubt as "briang123."

[Lizard King]

Vinny T basically called Incognito an idiot and Martin a pussy in Serbys column today.

[Matt39]

The quote feature just projectile vomited all over my screen (seriously, Max: wtf), so I'll just do this all at once:

 

This is a he-said/he-said situation. I believe it's possible that Richie Incognito is a vicious bully who should be banned from the league. I believe it's possible that Jonathan Martin is too soft for the NFL. I believe it's possible that Martin is faking the whole thing. I believe it's possible that Martin and Incognito were friends. I believe it's possible that they seemed like friends and Martin actually lived in terror of Incognito and his other teammates. I believe any combination of those facts, and a dozen others besides, could be true. When I said Hartline's statement held as much water for me as Martin's complaint, I meant that, given the amount of information we have right now, both mean exactly dick. You are the only person evincing any degree of certitude about this situation.

 

As for your friend at PFT, I care where it came from, because in this case, the content is the source. To be clear: you're gnashing your teeth about context and deductive reasoning even as you ferociously defend some anonymous internet dipsh*t for no discernable reason beyond confirmation bias. I just wish I could get the same benefit of the doubt as "briang123."

 

The PFT thing was simply something I stumbled across and I liked the way that poster worded his thoughts. I have no idea who he is-nor do I generally frequent PFT. I wasn't ferociously defending anyone. He could be a boob for all I know.

 

I never implied my opinions as facts and you're right any combo of what you listed above is probably the truth. I just happen to think this dude is out for bucks and who easier to blame than someone who  you were close with and is known as a lunatic to the general public?

 

I know the audience here and am fully aware that when these types of stories surface, my opinions are generally viewed as radioactive. I just enjoy the arguments....especially with a few who clearly arent accustomed to having their bubble wrapped opinions challenged.

[JoeKlecko]

In all seriousness- if the  behavior of 53 adult alpha males within a locker room makes you uncomfortable...football probably isn't the best sport for you. Chances are there's a scumbag(s) on every team in the league. Hell, Pac Man still plays. 

 

They've already taken away padded practices, two a days...allowing attorneys and what not to dictate the rules and regulations of a locker room like it's IBM isnt going to work.

 

Who are these "they" to which you're referring?  It isn't some outsiders or society.  "They" is the players.  "They" are the ones who demanded that in the last CBA and now they're all getting injured.  Karma, baby!

[SayNoToDMC]

Big deal. I do that in line at Old Country Buffet all the time.   One of many reasons no one ever ask me to pass the gravy.

That was you? I can't believe I still ate those potatos

[JoeKlecko]

Changing human nature is virtually impossible. It's like forcing gender. 53 football players are going to act the way they act. 

 

Answer this...Did NFL & collegiate football players learn to not make rude comments to female sportswriters and reporters?  Are we learning not to sexually harass others in the workplace?   Bullying is no different.  People can learn that it's not acceptable, and those who continue to do it can learn that there are severe consequences (fines, being suspended, being sued, jail time, etc.)  Human nature can be difficult to change, but not so much when there's adequate motivation.  Take away those neanderthal's opportunity to make millions of dollars playing a game and instead have them face the prospects of having to go work construction, load trucks, drive a UPS truck, etc., I'll bet they freaking learn in a hurry.

[JoeKlecko]

or

 

smart, high character kid who happens to be huge plays football for a career.  enjoys stanford, gets drafted

 

turns out the dolphins are a cesspool of scumbags, coached by a clueless dolt.  he doesn't fit in.

 

they try to mold him into a tough guy with psychological abuse

 

oops

 

we'll find what's up if the document he's preparing for the NFL gets released or leaked

 

incognito wasn't suspended by the dolphins for nothing

 

I bet this get ugly

 

This ^^^^^^^^^^^  x 1,000

[JoeKlecko]

Until I see facts to the contrary, I'm believing Martin.  I know what it's like to be bullied.  I put up with a lot of crap, abuse, and bullying starting in late elementary school that continued in middle school and high school.  I've always tried to get along with others and am not a violent person by nature, but I have my limits.  

 

Even though I tried my best to avoid them, three times during those years I wound up in physical confrontations with a bully.  The first two times I clocked the other guy and he never bothered me again.  The last time, I was working construction and this guy had been particularly nasty and bullying.  He bullied me for my last two years in HS, and when I thought he was out of my life forever, here he was back on the same construction crew after my freshman year of college.  He was bigger and stronger than I and a much more experienced fighter, but one day I lost it.  I had had enough and snapped.  I picked up a piece of rebar and was intent on killing him with it.  Thank God a good friend was working on the crew with me and intervened, or I probably would have killed the guy (or would have busted a gut trying).  I told the guy in no uncertain terms that if he ever said or did anything to me again I'd kill him and meant it.  The guy never bothered me again.

 

I definitely can understand how bullying victims snap and go postal, but not how they just start killing random people.   I don't blame Martin for not responding physically, but I am surprised that he didn't.  Then again, messing with a lowlife cretin like Incognito is a no-win situation, and Martin is better off for not having fought him.  

[SayNoToDMC]

Turns out the team did address Martin's issues, Jeff Ireland suggested he punch him.

[JoeKlecko]

What's really funny is that I hadn't thought of the last SOB for 40 years and two weeks ago he sent me a friend request in FB.  LOL

[The Crusher]

What's really funny is that I hadn't thought of the last SOB for 40 years and two weeks ago he sent me a friend request in FB.  LOL

 

 

Still waiting on an answer. Miss you.

[T0mShane]

IMO, "bullying" is a part of life, and you're never going to legislate it out of society. Every interaction you have involves establishing the power relationship within that relationship, and one party assumes the alpha position while the other defers--this happens with the guy you buy your morning coffee from on down. If you want to do a kid a favor, teach him/her that people are going to try and assume power over you every day, and give them the skills to cope in those situations. I say this as someone who has been on both sides of the fence. I was a tiny, weird kid growing up (5'6, 98 lb freshman), and I grew into a 6'2", 240 lb weird adult. I've been mercilessly bullied, and I've pushed around people I saw as weak. As this relates to Martin v Incognito, I still think it's classic bullying that Martin handled poorly, but handled it the only way he saw how. I hate that Martin is getting trashed here, but that's the world we live in. There's the way we wish it would be, and there's the reality of the situation.

[BurnleyJet]

The guy Aaron Hernandez killed and the guy Pac Man Jones friend shot and put in a wheel chair for life mildly disagree.

Ray Lewis..

[Matt39]

What's really funny is that I hadn't thought of the last SOB for 40 years and two weeks ago he sent me a friend request in FB.  LOL

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMo_HcRBnUY

[Matt39]

Being reported now tht this infamous Vegas trip was prepaid for by the veterans on the team and Martin backed out of it last minute, when he had already committed to go. The team had still asked for him to pay his portion.

[The Crusher]

IMO, "bullying" is a part of life, and you're never going to legislate it out of society. Every interaction you have involves establishing the power relationship within that relationship, and one party assumes the alpha position while the other defers--this happens with the guy you buy your morning coffee from on down. If you want to do a kid a favor, teach him/her that people are going to try and assume power over you every day, and give them the skills to cope in those situations. I say this as someone who has been on both sides of the fence. I was a tiny, weird kid growing up (5'6, 98 lb freshman), and I grew into a 6'2", 240 lb weird adult. I've been mercilessly bullied, and I've pushed around people I saw as weak. As this relates to Martin v Incognito, I still think it's classic bullying that Martin handled poorly, but handled it the only way he saw how. I hate that Martin is getting trashed here, but that's the world we live in. There's the way we wish it would be, and there's the reality of the situation.

 I was always the fat kid. Still am.  Lucky enough to just be made fun of and mostly ignored.  Not bullied mostly because nobody wanted to bully an 6th grader they weighs 250lbs and had a mustache already.

 

One of the reasons everyone one of my kids has studied the martial; arts from the time they were 4 or 5.  I also raised them to be kind to everyone and if they really wanted to make great friends in life pick a kid that has none.  BAby Crusher is the epitome of this.  Big bad dude who hangs out with kids that people would prbably pick on but decide not to because they have a buddy that makes it just not worth it.