SAR I Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I didn't sell out to opposing teams fans ever YOU DID blame yourself and others like you. Yes it was an investment in a team that has won nothing MANY fans are still trying to get back that initial PSL investment YOU are an exception from all the other season ticket holder fans I talk to. 7 years later and many season ticket holders still haven't recovered so yes blame those fans who have PSLs and SOLD OUT yesterday and other Sundays. Show up or shut up. Nothing was stopping you from buying my below-face-value seats on Stubhub this Sunday and blocking out the very Patriots fans you are so upset about. I don't know any Jets fans who can attend all 10 home games each year, there's always something that comes up and interferes with a game or two. A PSL is no investment. It's life in the NFL now. For most fans, it's a $7 per game price increase. Please note that in the last 5 years of Giants Stadium the Jets raised my mezzanine ticket prices from $80 to $125. That's a $45 increase. A lot less than a $7 PSL. No one complained. No one called season ticket holders "poor investors" when we were asked to pay $45 more for the same product in the same crappy stadium. Since our brand new MetLife Stadium opened 5 years ago, my mezzanine seats are still $125. My PSL vig is $13. I'd be paying more had we stayed in the old place, chief. SAR I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I think these guys proved their point and don't begrudge them for their efforts. Where they're starting to lose me is with the threats to lead movements to default on PSL's. Guys.. getting some impressionable dope to take a hit on his/her credit isn't really helping anything. I think you're going to get what you want so it's time to tone down the rhetoric and watch your time and energy be rewarded. You're liable to get people who are largely indifferent - like myself - start hoping they retain Idzik. Why? Cause **** you, that's why. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Show up or shut up. Nothing was stopping you from buying my below-face-value seats on Stubhub this Sunday and blocking out the very Patriots fans you are so upset about. I don't know any Jets fans who can attend all 10 home games each year, there's always something that comes up and interferes with a game or two. A PSL is no investment. It's life in the NFL now. For most fans, it's a $7 per game price increase. Please note that in the last 5 years of Giants Stadium the Jets raised my mezzanine ticket prices from $80 to $125. That's a $45 increase. A lot less than a $7 PSL. No one complained. No one called season ticket holders "poor investors" when we were asked to pay $45 more for the same product in the same crappy stadium. Since our brand new MetLife Stadium opened 5 years ago, my mezzanine seats are still $125. My PSL vig is $13. I'd be paying more had we stayed in the old place, chief. SAR I Until Woody Johnson puts a product on the field thats worth me showing up my tickets will be used by other Jets fans so I get the tax write off so to me its an investment. I applaud other fans who endured a season like this year I did it with Kotite 1-15 and know the feeling. Who buys your tickets when you do sell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 This year, in KC, I actually began to feel guilty/embarrassed. The local fans we sat near were so nice and welcoming to my father and I that I thought, 'I hope they never come to MetLife, because they won't get treated nearly as well... Not even close'. Hell, I'm a Jet fan and the other Jet fans are usually the worst part of the gameday experience. Kc fans were pure class. I had a great game day xp at arrowhead this year. they would be miserable at met life lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC36 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 New rule here at JetNation, JoeWilly12 and Sg3 are required to put each other on ignore. I drafted this rule and it passed a vote 1-0 because I'm sick of reading the childish bullsh*t between the two of you. K thx bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 New rule here at JetNation, JoeWilly12 and Sg3 are required to put each other on ignore. I drafted this rule and it passed a vote 1-0 because I'm sick of reading the childish bullsh*t between the two of you. K thx bye Bring back the hammer! The notorious BP neg rep bomb. Oh wait, too many people cried about neg rep Hahahahahahahaha that still makes me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 New rule here at JetNation, JoeWilly12 and Sg3 are required to put each other on ignore. I drafted this rule and it passed a vote 1-0 because I'm sick of reading the childish bullsh*t between the two of you. K thx bye No problem consider it done I apologize for my behavior and lapse of judgement in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lot K Tailgaters Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 As someone who enjoys Jets road trips, your advice on this is terrible. We should absolutely not make the experience for opposing fans "miserable." Doing so only furthers the notion that Jets fans are assholes. It's football. Everyone is there to be entertained. It really shouldn't be that hard to root for your team without being a dick. The advent of stubhub and similar sites means the stadiums will always be mixed. It's inevitable. That doesn't give Jets fans a license to make the stadium unsafe for others. I am not saying make it unsafe. But if someone yells "what the f---" after Geno Smith throws an interception and a fan of the other team is offended don't upgrade their seats. I've also seen many opposing team fans antagonize Jets fans in the new stadium and be able to get away with it and Jets fans get the boot. I don't really care what opposing fans think of me. Look at Philly. They sell out and not many other fans want to go there. Not saying that's how Jets fans should act but we don't need to opposing fans chanting "J E T S SUCK SUCK SUCK" all game long as us either. There are too many games where opposing team fans are rude to Jets fans. I sit at every home game in the first row of the upper deck with my name on my jersey and I always have to hear people yelling "Lenny Jets suck" I am supposed to have to listen to that in my own stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lot K Tailgaters Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 although I will say that there was a Pats fan by me who cheered Mangold getting hurt. He was tossed in the 3rd quarter after someone dumped nachos on him. Did you see the clip of it online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAR I Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Who buys your tickets when you do sell? I sell them on Stubhub so you don't know who buys them. Could be Jets fans, could be enemy fans, I just know that I'm out $535 if I can't make a game. Against elite teams I can make 200% face value. Against scrub teams I can make 75% face value. Against average teams I'll break even. I chose Row 1 Mezz A seats on selection day 2008 because of the view, but fact is they're easier to sell in a pinch than lower levels and uppers, unless the Club owners drop their prices I'm in good shape. SAR I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Make me idSICK Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I think these guys proved their point and don't begrudge them for their efforts. Where they're starting to lose me is with the threats to lead movements to default on PSL's. Guys.. getting some impressionable dope to take a hit on his/her credit isn't really helping anything. I think you're going to get what you want so it's time to tone down the rhetoric and watch your time and energy be rewarded. You're liable to get people who are largely indifferent - like myself - start hoping they retain Idzik. Why? Cause **** you, that's why. Just sayin'. We will celebrate that happy ending when it becomes official… it certainly does appear that things are headed in that direction. I am not sure if you understood the context of that PSL default quote though - so I will explain it. The reporter asked, "What happens if Woody Johnson ignores this movement and decides to bring back the front office and coaching staff next year?" Our long unedited answer was that we would organize what a good portion of our supporters have been trying to get us to do for quite a while and push a default of season ticket holders PSL's… To be fair - I think it should be noted that my family's 5 PSLs are not financed. They are paid off. We are prepared to walk away from $75k and consider it sunk cost. Since our season tickets cost $15k/year (5x$300/game = $1500/game x 10 games = $15000) we figure we will recoup our money in 5 years. If we want to attend an occasional game, we will just buy single game tickets and that will be that. We understand and respect that other people financed their PSLs. That is a different story. As far as I know, nobody has had action taken against them (yet) for walking away from their PSLs. People have been sending us emails who have already decided to go that route describing what they have encountered from the Jets. There have been threats of putting them in to collections. People who missed their payments had their tickets to the Pats game made invalid. That said - there are other options. People can continue to pay off their PSLs but just not pay for the tickets. Or, alternatively maybe the Jets would offer some sort of PSL buyout if this becomes a trend. Any of these scenarios - again - would lead to some seriously angry fans and would tarnish their brand. It will be interesting to see exactly what the Jets do to those people going forward. While I realize that these people signed a contract, if there is a mass default of PSLs, would the Jets be wise to sue (let's say) 5,000+ fans? That definitely would not be good for business. However, if they set a precedent that people can walk away, they would then have to explain to other PSL holders who ARE making their payments why they should continue to make them. An organized effort like this would be a nightmare for the Jets PR department and would certainly create quite a firestorm. We do not want for things to get to this point AT ALL. We know that it is the very last thing in the world that the Jets want to have to deal with - but they should have considered that when they instituted the PSLs in the first place. If you took a poll of PSL holders and asked them if they would buy PSLs if they knew then what they know now, I promise you that 90% would say "absolutely not"… there is some serious buyers remorse going on inside of that stadium. Especially when tickets in the PSL sections are being sold (which the Jets promised would never happen) on a single game basis, often for less than face value. I respect Sar1 and know that he is happy with his PSLs - but he is definitely in the minority. This is a big problem for the Jets. They are going to have to come up with a creative solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSJets Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Can you post it? Sorry, was at work earlier tonight. Let me see if I can embed it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-Ets3_bI8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Sorry, was at work earlier tonight. Let me see if I can embed it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-Ets3_bI8 You know anyone wearing pantyhose on his head and a custom jersey hoody with the name "God Maserati" is going to just be trouble, call me a profiler all you want, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 New rule here at JetNation, JoeWilly12 and Sg3 are required to put each other on ignore. I drafted this rule and it passed a vote 1-0 because I'm sick of reading the childish bullsh*t between the two of you. K thx bye Done, Joe Should have done it weeks ago. Thanks for the rule. Love that one man rule BTW...you are the Kim Jong Un of this joint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSJets Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Done, Joe Should have done it weeks ago. Thanks for the rule. Love that one man rule BTW...you are the Kim Jong Un of this joint Wait, I thought Crusher was the fat one like Kim Jong Un? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Make me idSICK Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Done, Joe Should have done it weeks ago. Thanks for the rule. Love that one man rule BTW...you are the Kim Jong Un of this joint Lol... I am just happy we can still talk! Where are your seats, btw? I owe you a beer next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lol... I am just happy we can still talk! Where are your seats, btw? I owe you a beer next season. LSL, 10K × 3.. How about next year Oct 4 at Tailgate Joe's London Pub somewhere near Wembley? Our whole disagreement was not over keeping or firing the GM, only about tactics. Glad our fighting is over and in less than six days, so will Idzik and Rex and hopefully we can start building toward that long awaited championship with the right people doing it I waited from 1952 (my first game at age 8) until June 14, 1994 for my Blueshirts to hoist the cup and the long wait was truly worth it Time to get the wheels turning in the direction of seeing that second Lombardi arrive at Florham Park Go Jets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsFanatic Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I think these guys proved their point and don't begrudge them for their efforts. Where they're starting to lose me is with the threats to lead movements to default on PSL's. Guys.. getting some impressionable dope to take a hit on his/her credit isn't really helping anything. I think you're going to get what you want so it's time to tone down the rhetoric and watch your time and energy be rewarded. You're liable to get people who are largely indifferent - like myself - start hoping they retain Idzik. Why? Cause **** you, that's why. Just sayin'. The "Fire Idzik" towels and Billboard movement have nothing to do with Idzik being fired. 3-13 or 4-12 does. Not selling out the stadium and having empty seats and tons of fans for opposing teams in attendance is moving Woody. I have season tickets and I saw one towel at the stadium on Sunday. I wouldn't get carried away, the movement was a non starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlagmanL11 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Show up or shut up. Nothing was stopping you from buying my below-face-value seats on Stubhub this Sunday and blocking out the very Patriots fans you are so upset about. I don't know any Jets fans who can attend all 10 home games each year, there's always something that comes up and interferes with a game or two.A PSL is no investment. It's life in the NFL now. For most fans, it's a $7 per game price increase. Please note that in the last 5 years of Giants Stadium the Jets raised my mezzanine ticket prices from $80 to $125. That's a $45 increase. A lot less than a $7 PSL. No one complained. No one called season ticket holders "poor investors" when we were asked to pay $45 more for the same product in the same crappy stadium.Since our brand new MetLife Stadium opened 5 years ago, my mezzanine seats are still $125. My PSL vig is $13. I'd be paying more had we stayed in the old place, chief.SAR I 10 for 10 this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Make me idSICK Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Ha... You are a little late to the party JetsFanatic.... We have heard it all and each movement diminishing line is a complete contradiction of the previous one... Credit for hedging though! "These guys had nothing to do with getting him fired"... "woody might keep Idzik just to spite these people"... Lol - seems relatively legit... I mean, business owners never listen to irate customers. Then there is the..."What GM would come here when fans are calling for this guys job?" Except they are countered by the "Nobody is listening and you are wasting your money" crowd... Blah blah blah... if nobody is listening, why would any GM care? My favorite has been the "you guys are media seeking attention whores" crowd who - of course - were countered by the "show your faces, you cowards... You hide behind a keyboard" crowd. And the "there was only 1 towel" crowd - except somehow, about 8 different local newspapers covered the story and found people all over the parking lot with them. And the silly little fact that i personally handed out over 10,000 of them and plenty of people like Flagman - who had nothing to do with our movement - already stated he handed out hundreds at his tailgate alone. Somebody come up with some new material. You aren't even creative. All we care about it that Woody appears to be doing the right thing. Give us as much or as little credit as you would like. All that matters is that we (seem to have) accomplished our goal. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Make me idSICK Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 LSL, 10K × 3.. How about next year Oct 4 at Tailgate Joe's London Pub somewhere near Wembley? Our whole disagreement was not over keeping or firing the GM, only about tactics. Glad our fighting is over and in less than six days, so will Idzik and Rex and hopefully we can start building toward that long awaited championship with the right people doing it I waited from 1952 (my first game at age 8) until June 14, 1994 for my Blueshirts to hoist the cup and the long wait was truly worth it Time to get the wheels turning in the direction of seeing that second Lombardi arrive at Florham Park Go Jets I have actually never been to London and the four of us who started this all promised each other that if Idzik was fired, we would take that trip as a celebration. There is a very good chance we will be there. Looking forward to buying you that beer out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I am not saying make it unsafe. But if someone yells "what the f---" after Geno Smith throws an interception and a fan of the other team is offended don't upgrade their seats. I've also seen many opposing team fans antagonize Jets fans in the new stadium and be able to get away with it and Jets fans get the boot. I don't really care what opposing fans think of me. Look at Philly. They sell out and not many other fans want to go there. Not saying that's how Jets fans should act but we don't need to opposing fans chanting "J E T S SUCK SUCK SUCK" all game long as us either. There are too many games where opposing team fans are rude to Jets fans. I sit at every home game in the first row of the upper deck with my name on my jersey and I always have to hear people yelling "Lenny Jets suck" I am supposed to have to listen to that in my own stadium? You probably shouldn't upgrade their seats. However, security isn't there, and it's probably easier to just find the fan other seats in the ambiguous situation. Also, I also wasn't there, but I'd be willing to bet in this case, as in all of them, that there was more to it then just someone saying "what the ****" once. It's great that you don't care what other fans think of you. I guess that's where we're different. I consider myself a decent human being long before I consider my identification as a Jet fan. Ruining someone's afternoon, that they spent their money on, and possibly traveled to participate in, conflicts with the way in which I choose to carry myself. Yes, other fans don't want to go to Philly, or Oakland, because they don't feel safe there. That's not the environment to engender. Because, if opposing fans don't feel safe, I'm sure plenty of home fans, and families, don't feel safe and stay home too. As for hearing someone say "JETS SUCK SUCK SUCK..." or "Lenny Sucks..." Presumably, you're a grown man. Is that really a problem for you? The only way that's going to change is if the Jets stop sucking. Until then, I'd think try not to let them hurt your feelings, and if you don't engage with people who are looking for attention, they usually stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlagmanL11 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Sorry, was at work earlier tonight. Let me see if I can embed it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-Ets3_bI8 Other side of my section. That Pats fan was a ass the whole game before getting nacho'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Kc fans were pure class. I had a great game day xp at arrowhead this year. they would be miserable at met life lol They all just wanted to make sure we ate at the right BBQ places, offered to take some photos for us, gave us some free soda coupons, asked about New York, and wished us a safe flight home. It's embarrassing that in the reversal, they'd mostly have to avoid being peed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I have actually never been to London and the four of us who started this all promised each other that if Idzik was fired, we would take that trip as a celebration. There is a very good chance we will be there. Looking forward to buying you that beer out there. Looking forward to it. Prolly a Wednesday to Monday for us. The missus is looking forward to sightseeing at Harrods and Selfridges so I might have to panhandle a few quid to buy you your brewski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Went to Green Bay this year- nicest crowd and people of any place I have gone to- their tailgates put to shame Jet tailgates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 My roadie to Nashville was great...Jacks BBQ, Broadway live music joints..easy walk across the pedestrian bridge to the stadium. Great friendly crowd, no hassling. Only bad part was my failure to bring home a Big L Only a few miserable places to go if you are a road fan...Philthy, S**tsburgh, Oakland and of course the worst drunken slugs on the planet, Sucksboro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Ha... You are a little late to the party JetsFanatic.... We have heard it all and each movement diminishing line is a complete contradiction of the previous one... Credit for hedging though! "These guys had nothing to do with getting him fired"... "woody might keep Idzik just to spite these people"... Lol - seems relatively legit... I mean, business owners never listen to irate customers. Then there is the..."What GM would come here when fans are calling for this guys job?" Except they are countered by the "Nobody is listening and you are wasting your money" crowd... Blah blah blah... if nobody is listening, why would any GM care? My favorite has been the "you guys are media seeking attention whores" crowd who - of course - were countered by the "show your faces, you cowards... You hide behind a keyboard" crowd. And the "there was only 1 towel" crowd - except somehow, about 8 different local newspapers covered the story and found people all over the parking lot with them. And the silly little fact that i personally handed out over 10,000 of them and plenty of people like Flagman - who had nothing to do with our movement - already stated he handed out hundreds at his tailgate alone. Somebody come up with some new material. You aren't even creative. All we care about it that Woody appears to be doing the right thing. Give us as much or as little credit as you would like. All that matters is that we (seem to have) accomplished our goal. The end. You guys did an admirable job and so did the person who paid for the numerous fly overs at the stadium and at Florham Park for the most part a large number of fans are disgusted and want change its just some dont agree with the tactics being used. Woody Johnson has been publicly humiliated on and off the field the Jets are 3-12. Thanks again for all your efforts and hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lol... I am just happy we can still talk! Where are your seats, btw? I owe you a beer next season. LSL, 10K × 3.. How about next year Oct 4 at Tailgate Joe's London Pub somewhere near Wembley? Our whole disagreement was not over keeping or firing the GM, only about tactics. Glad our fighting is over and in less than six days, so will Idzik and Rex and hopefully we can start building toward that long awaited championship with the right people doing it I waited from 1952 (my first game at age 8) until June 14, 1994 for my Blueshirts to hoist the cup and the long wait was truly worth it Time to get the wheels turning in the direction of seeing that second Lombardi arrive at Florham Park Go Jets I have actually never been to London and the four of us who started this all promised each other that if Idzik was fired, we would take that trip as a celebration. There is a very good chance we will be there. Looking forward to buying you that beer out there. Looking forward to it. Prolly a Wednesday to Monday for us. The missus is looking forward to sightseeing at Harrods and Selfridges so I might have to panhandle a few quid to buy you your brewski See Max and JoeC36 how we Jet fans can all get along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Towels used before during the Kotite era A Jets protest towel, circa 1989. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfed Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 10 for 10 this year. Awesome. I had been to every game, including all preseason games, in the new place til this year. Then this year I missed 4 home games, including both wins, due to unavoidable business travel. I still love going. This year was tough since they are so bad. Last year was great due to all the home wins. Fascinated by the apparently failed directed parking experiment and the many other shenanigans the Jets inflict on us. And it remains absurdly expensive. But overall still love going, and can't wait for next season.....hopefully with a professional QB on the field on our side and some new management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlagmanL11 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 The parking thing has me a bit concerned as feedback was not positive with most entrances closed, which defeats the design of the lot to have multiple ways to get in a out (one of the PSL selling points!) Always amazes me how many fair weather fans are out there. Tailgate attendance was 50% of what it would be during a competitive season, but fun anyway. BTW: Hit my 100th post on JN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfed Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 The parking thing has me a bit concerned as feedback was not positive with most entrances closed, which defeats the design of the lot to have multiple ways to get in a out (one of the PSL selling points!) Always amazes me how many fair weather fans are out there. Tailgate attendance was 50% of what it would be during a competitive season, but fun anyway. BTW: Hit my 100th post on JN! Great job on the 100! I am lagging, but slowly building. I like this place. Seems like a great crowd, and I like the design of the forum. And yeah it was probably 40% Pats fans by me in top of 135. Maybe even more? I was a bad fan this week and shouldn't talk, though. I got to E at like 11:45. Had the world's smallest tailgate but didn't rush in and got into the game a little late. Actually most cars near me in E at the time were doing the same. Was having fun outside and no rush to get in....I know, that is weak, but it is what it is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlagmanL11 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Great job on the 100! I am lagging, but slowly building. I like this place. Seems like a great crowd, and I like the design of the forum. And yeah it was probably 40% Pats fans by me in top of 135. Maybe even more? I was a bad fan this week and shouldn't talk, though. I got to E at like 11:45. Had the world's smallest tailgate but didn't rush in and got into the game a little late. Actually most cars near me in E at the time were doing the same. Was having fun outside and no rush to get in....I know, that is weak, but it is what it is.... Same here, always a minute or two late game clock wise, but when you go to them all you can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Towels used before during the Kotite era A Jets protest towel, circa 1989. That was actually the Walton era. You really thought it was Joe Kotite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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