Cyberjet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 And yet, as apparently stupid as you believe those arguments to be, the two former GMs helping with the search for a new GM have put together a list of candidates that -so far as I have seen- does not include a single name from the math side of the building. Everyone of them is a personnel guy. A director of scouting. A draft guru. Go figure. Typical Jets stupidity, I guess. It takes more than just a manager to manage something as specific as an NFL personnel department. You can't take the executive of the year from the business world and put him into a GM role and expect him to succeed. The scouting department puts together a couple thousand reports, they put them on some sort of order, but at the end of the day the GM makes the final call. The GM has to have the ability to make that call. The man in charge needs to've come up thru those ranks. He needs to understand the scouting process, and have an aptitude for it himself. He needs to be able to look at the reports and film in front of him, and shuffle the order based on his own abilities. A manager can't do that. A manager has to completely rely on his underlings. And if he has no experience in the scouting department himself, how is he even supposed to be able to recognize who's not a good scout working for him? Idzik was doomed to failure because he wasn't qualified for the job in the first place. Here is a realistic look at what it takes to be a GM. Idzik had many of these capabilities attributes and qualifications. Idzik knew how to run a very organized disciplined operation. He was steadfast focused. His 2014 draft will be much better viewed in 2 years. http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/04/10-things-i-learned-about-being-a-general-manager/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 the GM job is more than knowing who to draft. It's a very complex varied job that essentially lays down the foundation and personality of how an operation is run behind the scenes and it's public persona. We soon forgot how the Jets were perceived as a circus not too long ago - that stopped with Idzik at least until billboards towels and planes entered the picture which was out of his control. He was a steady thoughtful no nonsense person - well repected by the football community. He may have been too conservative in some of his dealings but this was not a very good year for FAs and he was determined not to overpay. How did the Giants do with Cromartie? people get experience and they grow. Idzik was a good person and I suspect he woukld have grown into a very good GM particularly with Quinn as the Jets HC. But we will never know. Doesn't his presser sort of throw out the "public persona" reasoning? I tried not to watch it, but I know of nobody that rationally defended his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Doesn't his presser sort of throw out the "public persona" reasoning? I tried not to watch it, but I know of nobody that rationally defended his performance. Yeah, he's an awful talker. Awful. It's a real fault for any kind of serious person and this is literally the big leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberjet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Doesn't his presser sort of throw out the "public persona" reasoning? I tried not to watch it, but I know of nobody that rationally defended his performance. seriously - what the heck does a press conference have anything to do with being a GM. (BB gives one hell of a press conference.) Idzik had many press conferences before that and was fine. No complaints from anyone. People were just looking for excuses. The persona was that the Jets were a now serious disciplined organization. Much of the bs leaks were gone, etc. Whatever - I'm sure the Jets we'll end up with mediocrity but at least the GM will give a good press conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 the GM job is more than knowing who to draft. It's a very complex varied job that essentially lays down the foundation and personality of how an operation is run behind the scenes and it's public persona. We soon forgot how the Jets were perceived as a circus not too long ago - that stopped with Idzik at least until billboards towels and planes entered the picture which was out of his control. He was a steady thoughtful no nonsense person - well repected by the football community. He may have been too conservative in some of his dealings but this was not a very good year for FAs and he was determined not to overpay. How did the Giants do with Cromartie? people get experience and they grow. Idzik was a good person and I suspect he woukld have grown into a very good GM particularly with Quinn as the Jets HC. But we will never know. seriously - what the heck does a press conference have anything to do with being a GM. (BB gives one hell of a press conference.) Idzik had many press conferences before that and was fine. No complaints from anyone. People were just looking for excuses. The persona was that the Jets were a now serious disciplined organization. Much of the bs leaks were gone, etc. Whatever - I'm sure the Jets we'll end up with mediocrity but at least the GM will give a good press conference. Why the seriously? You were the one that said the guy was brought in to change the atmosphere from a circus. To set the personality of the organization. You claim he was well respected, well none of the things you say survived his performance in that press conference and that was totally in his control. FWIW, we heard plenty of rumblings that he was over his head and insulting to agents well before that. The guy is probably getting it a little rough around here, but he is an Ivy-educated guy that was hired to be "the adult in the room" and he folded up at the press conference. Are we all supposed to accept that he held up that much better behind the scenes? In the draft room? I'm not so sure. I think it is kind of funny that you make it out like I am calling for a GM that can give a good press conference above all other qualifications when the ability to bring a steady respectful appearance to the organization is the one highlight you are pointing to. I read about that press conference and my first thought was "circus." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyjet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberjet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Why the seriously? You were the one that said the guy was brought in to change the atmosphere from a circus. To set the personality of the organization. You claim he was well respected, well none of the things you say survived his performance in that press conference and that was totally in his control. FWIW, we heard plenty of rumblings that he was over his head and insulting to agents well before that. The guy is probably getting it a little rough around here, but he is an Ivy-educated guy that was hired to be "the adult in the room" and he folded up at the press conference. Are we all supposed to accept that he held up that much better behind the scenes? In the draft room? I'm not so sure. I think it is kind of funny that you make it out like I am calling for a GM that can give a good press conference above all other qualifications when the ability to bring a steady respectful appearance to the organization is the one highlight you are pointing to. I read about that press conference and my first thought was "circus." All I can say is you have a strange definition of circus. That presser wasn't as bad as people say and if you got that from his presser so be it. all your other stuff is just conjecture and heresay. The reality is Idzik is gone - I felt he got the shaft - I feel Johnson and the Jets organization took a hit on the integrity front. You don't state you support and embrace your GMs plan and vision for the future and fire him 2 months later. I would be very hesitant to work for someone who made those statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 All I can say is you have a strange definition of circus. That presser wasn't as bad as people say and if you got that from his presser so be it. all your other stuff is just conjecture and heresay. The reality is Idzik is gone - I felt he got the shaft - I feel Johnson and the Jets organization took a hit on the integrity front. You don't state you support and embrace your GMs plan and vision for the future and fire him 2 months later. I would be very hesitant to work for someone who made those statements. Eh. I respect that you want to stand by the guy, but there is no hit on the integrity front for not sticking with a guy because of a mid-season vote of confidence. They were widely viewed as the kiss of death. His plan and vision for the future is the same as everyone else's. His execution can certainly be questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peekskill68 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 seriously - what the heck does a press conference have anything to do with being a GM. (BB gives one hell of a press conference.) Idzik had many press conferences before that and was fine. No complaints from anyone. People were just looking for excuses. The persona was that the Jets were a now serious disciplined organization. Much of the bs leaks were gone, etc. Whatever - I'm sure the Jets we'll end up with mediocrity but at least the GM will give a good press conference. I agree. That press conference was the most overhyped media smackdown I've seen in a while. Idzik's unwillingness to engage the media, combined with the dismal record at the time unleashed the dogs on him. In fact, I'm willing to bet 10 yrs ago before Facebook and Twitter and all these social media platforms became so dominant, Idzik would still be the GM now looking to replace Rex after firing him. I am glad we're moving on, and don't think Idzik's ever going to have the right stuff to be a good GM, but using that press conference as a defining moment in his tenure is bogus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 So what about Graves, then? He seems like a pretty solid guy for the job functions you're describing. Don't you think it's pretty likely that he effectively was that? I don't really see it being the case that Graves has one guy on top of the draft board but Idzik saw some other guy blow up a linebacker on tape once, you know? You'll say that even if that's true Idzik goes with Graves and as I've already made clear I don't disagree with that. I'm not a Graves fan, and wasn't thrilled when Idzik chose to bring him in, but what you're describing above is why I strongly prefer that the team's GM comes from the personnel side of the things. Idzik, without that experience, is forced to listen to his head scout and his head coach and try to make a determination without the skills to evaluate the players himself. Whereas Graves, were he in charge, would be in position to overrule the coach based on his own evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Enough said gentlemen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Here is a realistic look at what it takes to be a GM. Idzik had many of these capabilities attributes and qualifications. Idzik knew how to run a very organized disciplined operation. He was steadfast focused. His 2014 draft will be much better viewed in 2 years. http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/04/10-things-i-learned-about-being-a-general-manager/ Neither that article, not Scott Pioli, impress me all that much, and I have no idea why you're linking to it to serve as a reason John Idzik might somehow be qualified to be a GM. You think he'd be good at helping a player get dogs off his property? What in his background suggests that he knew how to run a "very organized disciplined operation"? He's been a contract/cap guy his whole career. Doubt he had a very large staff working for him. Nothing compared to the guy in charge of personnel, I'd be willing to guess. And what exactly is "steadfast focused"? Are you referring to the way a deer focuses on headlights? You can speculate that the draft will be viewed more positively two years down the road, but this year the view is he had 12 picks and only the first two had any impact on the field at all. Less than half of them made the roster on a four win team. Idzik was in way over his head. His was a mercy firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Idzik soon to be mattress salesman at a Sleepy's in North Jersey He needs more seasoning. Maybe in five years after their intensive internship program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 He needs more seasoning. Maybe in five years after their intensive internship program. Don't bring up intensive intership programs. That is where Casserly comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 He needs more seasoning. Maybe in five years after their intensive internship program. Ok then Shop-Rite gourmet cheese salesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Don't bring up intensive intership programs. That is where Casserly comes from. Ok then Shop-Rite gourmet cheese salesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I'm not a Graves fan, and wasn't thrilled when Idzik chose to bring him in, but what you're describing above is why I strongly prefer that the team's GM comes from the personnel side of the things. Idzik, without that experience, is forced to listen to his head scout and his head coach and try to make a determination without the skills to evaluate the players himself. Whereas Graves, were he in charge, would be in position to overrule the coach based on his own evaluation. It's not like he's some novice himself. He started in coaching, he started in the NFL in pro personnel, and he was involved in player evaluations in Seattle. He's better at doing his job than you are at knowing what his job is. You invoke final say, and again I'm agreed as to that being why he has to go. But this notion that short term outcomes are so easily explained by some huge relative deficiency in one guy's ability to tell good football players from bad football players, and the corresponding assumption that everything is gonna be all better once we replace him with somebody who drives a pickup truck is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 So what about Graves, then? He seems like a pretty solid guy for the job functions you're describing. Don't you think it's pretty likely that he effectively was that? I don't really see it being the case that Graves has one guy on top of the draft board but Idzik saw some other guy blow up a linebacker on tape once, you know? You'll say that even if that's true Idzik goes with Graves and as I've already made clear I don't disagree with that. Did Graves have more control than Bradway did? Still uncertain whathis actual role was...either way I agree...ultimately not enough time to really judge. I think Idzik just rubbed our dummy owner the wrong way like Mangini did. And that's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Did Graves have more control than Bradway did? Still uncertain whathis actual role was...either way I agree...ultimately not enough time to really judge. I think Idzik just rubbed our dummy owner the wrong way like Mangini did. And that's a problem. To be fair, they both seemed to rub a bunch of people the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 To be fair, they both seemed to rub a bunch of people the wrong way. True. But I get the sense Woody likes to feel that he's the smartest guy in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 To be fair, they both seemed to rub a bunch of people the wrong way. I think it's easier to teach the nerd to banter like the fast-talking hillbilly than to teach Jethro numbers. I know which one's more important. Mangini never really came off as just plain bad as Idzik tended to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It's not like he's some novice himself. He started in coaching, he started in the NFL in pro personnel, and he was involved in player evaluations in Seattle. He's better at doing his job than you are at knowing what his job is. You invoke final say, and again I'm agreed as to that being why he has to go. But this notion that short term outcomes are so easily explained by some huge relative deficiency in one guy's ability to tell good football players from bad football players, and the corresponding assumption that everything is gonna be all better once we replace him with somebody who drives a pickup truck is just silly. Obviously, I think that huge deficiency does explain why the man would never be a good GM. I'm not so naïve to think that someone who possesses the one key component that Idzik lacks is going to be an instant success, though. However, I am gratified to know that the two former GMs assisting Woody in his search seem to've made that one quality -the ability to tell good football players from bad ones- at the top of their priority list for Idzik's replacement. The other finalist for the job last time was fellow accountant Omar Kahn. Haven't heard his name this time around. It's all personnel guys. And that's a very good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaSightPF Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 He's going to go back to Seattle and have a good laugh with John Schneider over what a ****fest working here was. Yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinamite Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Interesting that the other guy that everyone wanted (myself included) Tom Gamble, left 49rs and has now been fired by Eagles. Maybe Woody was right not hiring him... Chris Mortensen @mortreport 2m2 minutes ago The Eagles have fired Tom Gamble, VP of player personnel. It may be announced as “parting ways” with Gamble but it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Interesting that the other guy that everyone wanted (myself included) Tom Gamble, left 49rs and has now been fired by Eagles. Maybe Woody was right not hiring him... Chris Mortensen @mortreport 2m2 minutes ago The Eagles have fired Tom Gamble, VP of player personnel. It may be announced as “parting ways” with Gamble but it is what it is. It was a Gamble from the start.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg3 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It was a Gamble from the start.. Now we should hire him before 2014 is over....like by 3 PM Do it Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly12 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If we hire him any chance he brings Sanchez back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If we hire him any chance he brings Sanchez back? If that happens, I kill everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If that happens, I kill everybody. You can't rekill fans that already committed suicide.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 REX YESTERDAY: IDZIK YESTERDAY: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny16 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Interesting that the other guy that everyone wanted (myself included) Tom Gamble, left 49rs and has now been fired by Eagles. Maybe Woody was right not hiring him... Chris Mortensen @mortreport 2m2 minutes ago The Eagles have fired Tom Gamble, VP of player personnel. It may be announced as “parting ways” with Gamble but it is what it is. It definitely sounds like Woody was right in not hiring him. One has to wonder how bad an interview he gave if Idzik was able to beat him out. Still, now that he's been fired he's probably moved right to the top of the Jets' list, as that would be a very Jets-like hire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 You can't rekill fans that already committed suicide.. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If we hire him any chance he brings Sanchez back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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