Todd Bowles says no loss in confidence in Fitz

[SAR I]

26 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Guess what -- Hackenberg fell from the first round like a rock and he was picked to be our savior by this GM and HC. 

Also it's a guess that he's the best we have this season when he's all we've seen. If/when Petty comes in and doesn't commit multiple turnovers every time we play a tough matchup, then it seems Fitzpatrick was not the best chance to win. It's just that he's the only one this coaching staff or FO would put onto the field.

Hackenberg wasn't expected to start immediately, we didn't cripple Fitzpatrick or Petty to force Hackenberg into the starting role, we didn't put FItzpatrick and Petty out in the 4th quarter of a meaningless preseason game behind a joke offensive line to get them both hurt.

Christian Hackenberg and Geno Smith are two completely different animals.  One is a long-term reclamation project, the other handpicked to be our immediate starter.

SAR I

[Integrity28]

11 hours ago, SAR I said:

Bengals:  Fitzpatrick guides the Jets to a 4th quarter lead against a superior team.  With only 2 minutes to go, the defense gives up the lead on a poor drive and surrender the winning score. 

Bills:  Fitzpatrick has a career day, Jets pull off the road upset on national TV, our quarterback is AFC Offensive Player Of The Week.

Seahawks:  Fitzpatrick plays well for 3 quarters despite brutal field position, a secondary that gives up yardage in spades, and a RB who has disappeared.  His INT shouldn't be a killer, it's in Seattle territory, but no, the secondary allows a gimpy Russell Wilson to go 61 yards in 4 plays to seal the game.

If the D holds on against the Bengals, no one says a word about Fitzpatrick.  When we spanked the Bills, no one said a word about Fitzpatrick.  If the D does its job against a terrible Seattle OL we win a close game and no one says a word about Fitzpatrick.  You are focusing on the wrong guy and you are using dumb stats to defend a weak position, no different than your "but Miami!" position regarding Geno Smith.

SAR I

I agree in principle, but the reality is somewhere in-between. 

We're losing these games because of both, not one or the other. Fitz sucks, so does the defense - specifically the secondary. We have far more assets tied up in the D, the expectations should be Minnesota Vikings. While the expectations of Fitz should be "the defense has this, just don't lose it for us". 

Both parties are not holding up their end of the bargain.

[SAR I]

13 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I agree in principle, but the reality is somewhere in-between. 

We're losing these games because of both, not one or the other. Fitz sucks, so does the defense - specifically the secondary. We have far more assets tied up in the D, the expectations should be Minnesota Vikings. While the expectations of Fitz should be "the defense has this, just don't lose it for us". 

Both parties are not holding up their end of the bargain.

Agree completely, and my only point sitting here at 1-3 is that there is too much blame being pointed at the QB, it's inequitable, we've seen this type of scapegoating before and it does us no good.  The odds of Bowles flipping the D and getting them elite again is decent, the odds of Gailey getting the QB to play like vintage Dan Marino is never going to happen, so as a fanbase let's get our priorities straight on accountability and improvement potential.

SAR I

[Sperm Edwards]

54 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Hackenberg wasn't expected to start immediately, we didn't cripple Fitzpatrick or Petty to force Hackenberg into the starting role, we didn't put FItzpatrick and Petty out in the 4th quarter of a meaningless preseason game behind a joke offensive line to get them both hurt.

Christian Hackenberg and Geno Smith are two completely different animals.  One is a long-term reclamation project, the other handpicked to be our immediate starter.

SAR I

We did put Petty in the 1st quarter of a meaningless preseason game behind a backup OL and got him hurt. 1st quarter vs 4th quarter isn't much of a difference; we didn't have our 3rd string OL out there.

I agree Hackenberg and Smith are two completely different animals. The sad part is that, at the time each was drafted, Hackenberg was the lesser prospect of the two, and the difference was not subtle. I fully admit I've never watched him QB an entire game (good or bad ones), but the idea of him being a "reclamation" seems to be a fantasy; if he was great and then his play slipped that would be one thing. It seems he was merely ok & put up better than expected numbers when there was lots of talent around him and then slipped to garbage when that cushy setting disappeared (not unlike a physically gifted Fitzpatrick). He has top notch raw physical skills but it's a joke to draft someone that high and then he's not good enough to warrant a 3rd string job behind 2 bad QBs and a 2nd year mid-round project. The sad thing about this difference is at his worst Smith was never as bad as Hackenberg is right now. Only thing Hackenberg is doing better is he's remaining invisible while he's off the field, which Geno seems incapable of learning.

Smith was not drafted - or anyway he shouldn't have been drafted - to be our immediate starter, except in the eyes of the GM who wanted Sanchez off the field - and therefore his bloated contract off the books - as soon as possible (which I was sympathetic with, but this replacement could have just as easily been done midseason with the receiver tools provided). I'm not getting into a whole thing with you over the wonders of Mark Sanchez because we do not and will not agree on this ever, other than to say the irony is the only person who probably loved Sanchez more than you is Rex Ryan. As best as I'd heard (not talking about in the papers) Ryan put him in at the end of that game because his GM was heavily pressuring him to start Geno over Mark, who was having a bad summer himself. Geno had another bad preseason outing and Rex figured he'd put in Sanchez late to deliver the stupid Snoopy Trophy, it would put the idea of starting Geno to bed, and show up the GM with whom he was having a serious power struggle right there on TV. It's ultimately why, on the sideline after the injury, Mark went off on Idzik not Rex.  In the end the Jets were right to do away with both Rex and Idzik, but I have serious concerns about the replacements.

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

it's b/c of what fitz did last year. bowles said so, fitz has 'earned it'.  they're going to use fitz until they're out of the playoffs, their answer to get to the playoffs does not include geno.  when they ultimately decide they're in full rebuild it will be with their draft picks.  mccags clearly believes he will be here for a while, given he's drafted 2 qbs who need more time to develop than perhaps typical college qbs.  

NFL = Not For Long

It's not about what you did last year, it's about what you did last week.

[Integrity28]

41 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Agree completely, and my only point sitting here at 1-3 is that there is too much blame being pointed at the QB, it's inequitable, we've seen this type of scapegoating before and it does us no good.  The odds of Bowles flipping the D and getting them elite again is decent, the odds of Gailey getting the QB to play like vintage Dan Marino is never going to happen, so as a fanbase let's get our priorities straight on accountability and improvement potential.

SAR I

I think we're very much aligned in our thinking.

All of our investment is on the defensive side of the ball. Every coach we hire, comes from defense. The majority of first rounders still on the roster, defense. The defense should be MUCH, MUCH better than this.

I've said it since we hired Bowles, you don't hand a defensive roster like this to a 1st-time defensive coordinator because he's your buddy. I wanted Wade Phillips to run the D and Shanny Jr to run the offense. 

[Maxman]

15 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Not surprised to seeBowles being second-guessed. In many ways warranted, but in some ways I think people overlook that in each of the last 5 games, in the games we lost, the two central players on both sides of the ball...  Revis and Fitz... have been absolutely horrible.

Only so much a coach can do when players aren't executing.

Week one you miss easy kicks and lose. It happens, that isn't a coaching thing.

Last week (KC) I think the game plan on defense was good, bend but dont break. It addressed the big plays given up the first few weeks. But you turn the ball over 8 times and you will lose no matter what.

But last year half time adjustments seemed to be great. This year not so much. 

Coaching wise right now I am worried about:

• Them sticking too long with Fitz
• Covering tight ends scares me, they need to make changes there or Darron Lee has to improve in a hurry
• Secondary in general seems to definitely be suffering from communication issues. Gilchrist seems to be having a conversation after every big play with someone else with lots of hand gestures. So I don't know who is right, but they aren't on the same page often.

[Jet Nut]

12 hours ago, SAR I said:

Myhero's don't like it when we play the penis card, the Twitter card, the suckerpunch card, the $600 card, the media boycott card, the Bleacher Report card, but these things matter in the NFL.  Especially the quarterback, especially with two young QB's on the roster, especially with the Rex Ryan Circus out of town, especially with a new GM and HC in charge.

I don't think it's a lack of faith in his ability as much as it's their lack of faith in his integrity.  In a rebuilding year, having a professional quarterback who acts like a responsible adult and leads by example in behavior and preparation is important, simple as that.

SAR I

Except that they had him starting after all these issues. He was the starter before having his faced smashed in.  Fitz was told he was the backup with all of this already out there, his personality known.  

Its all about Fitz won 10 games a year ago and his teammates like him.  It's not complicated. 

[56mehl56]

12 hours ago, win4ever said:

I'm breaking down the film right now, Marshall is gone on that play.  He's wide open for a TD over the top, safety wasn't even near him, and Fitz decides to throw a low line drive right at Sherman.  

Fitz isn't a flow QB either, I think he's a system QB.  Any spread system can over-come bad defenses, because it's all about exploiting bad matchups for the defense.  It's mostly why spread systems first started to originate at smaller colleges, because it was a way for them to isolate matchups, because they couldn't go 11 vs. 11.  And it's also why some teams will absolute destroy lesser competition, and you look at their tape and go "How the heck does someone stop them?" and then you watch them against a top defense and they can't move the ball.  Against, good defenses, the QB has to make good progressions and have an arm that can make all the throws.  Fitz doesn't have that.  He can get up to the line and see where the matchups are in his favor, and lock into them.  Against bad defenses, our players will win those match-ups.  Against good defenses, our players won't win them all the time, so you have to adjust, and he can't do that.  The Seahawks played in the intermediate part of the field, if we wanted to take shots deep, we could have, but Fitz can't do it consistently.  

That is exactly the issue with Fitz, he's a one read QB who can usually pickup up mismatches pre snap but post snap if his first read is covered its a losing proposition more times than not. Geno is probably just the opposite , he has a harder time isolating pre snap mismatches but has more ability post snap to recover from it.

[56mehl56]

12 hours ago, SAR I said:

Myhero's don't like it when we play the penis card, the Twitter card, the suckerpunch card, the $600 card, the media boycott card, the Bleacher Report card, but these things matter in the NFL.  Especially the quarterback, especially with two young QB's on the roster, especially with the Rex Ryan Circus out of town, especially with a new GM and HC in charge.

I don't think it's a lack of faith in his ability as much as it's their lack of faith in his integrity.  In a rebuilding year, having a professional quarterback who acts like a responsible adult and leads by example in behavior and preparation is important, simple as that.

SAR I

It matters only in the minds of fans. Guys like Favre did sh*t like you mention but no one cared because he won. If Geno was lights out on the field no one would care about the "noise".

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

It matters only in the minds of fans. Guys like Favre did sh*t like you mention but no one cared because he won. If Geno was lights out on the field no one would care about the "noise".

Is Geno "lights out on the field"?

[Snell41]

So speculate, what do you think the reason is then?

Because most men in positions of charge in the NFL fear being made a fool more than anything else. If Geno comes in and plays even a smidge better than Fitz, then signing Fitz for 12m with 5m of Dead cap money next year looks atrociously bad. By playing Fitz until we have zero chance late in the season leadership can always just fall back in "we felt he gave us the best chance" excuse and you'll never know otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sperm Edwards]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

They'll compete. Play their hearts out. Ball just bounces the wrong way sometimes. The other guys get paid, too.

Missed this one yesterday. Even with you saying this as a joke it still spiked my blood pressure. If I stroke out it's your fault. 

[thebuzzardman]

14 hours ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

One of the few common denominators that I can see, is defensive coaches not drafting offensive talent with their first rounder and putting to much priority on their defensive unit and "game-manager" QBs. When's the last time that the offense was the focal point of any discussion of our head-coach?  Our last few coaches agree that finding a QB is paramount, just make sure to do so in the later rounds so that our first can be used on a defensive lineman...

I'm not sure, what, if any aspect of the game is a focal point for Bowles. Most of the play and play calling looks pretty bad.

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

As best as I'd heard (not talking about in the papers) Ryan put him in at the end of that game because his GM was heavily pressuring him to start Geno over Mark, who was having a bad summer himself. Geno had another bad preseason outing and Rex figured he'd put in Sanchez late to deliver the stupid Snoopy Trophy, it would put the idea of starting Geno to bed, and show up the GM with whom he was having a serious power struggle right there on TV. It's ultimately why, on the sideline after the injury, Mark went off on Idzik not Rex.  In the end the Jets were right to do away with both Rex and Idzik, but I have serious concerns about the replacements.

Didn't realize this, that's fascinating and makes a lot of sense.

SAR I

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Is Geno "lights out on the field"?

Not to date , but we didn't give him 11 years to prove he gave us the best chance to win.

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

It matters only in the minds of fans. Guys like Favre did sh*t like you mention but no one cared because he won. If Geno was lights out on the field no one would care about the "noise".

Agree completely but Geno is a youngster trying to prove himself and trying to get the stigma of the past off him.  So doing these things like Twitter (backhanded insults towards Jets FO) and Bleacher Report (self-promoting interview) in a calendar week when we are getting our asses handed to us by elite NFL teams is a sure ticket to continued exile.  If you want to be the quarterback, the team leader, you should be acting like one.

SAR I

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Not to date , but we didn't give him 11 years to prove he gave us the best chance to win.

Should we give him 11 years to prove himself?

[56mehl56]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Should we give him 11 years to prove himself?

No but I feel he should have gotten a chance to start this season with the best offensive roster he's ever played with. If he stunk up the joint after 7-8 weeks it was a natural progression to Petty/Hack. Everyone knew what Fitz would do this season , there's 11 years of evidence of what he does against the better teams in the NFL, like the ones our roster was front loaded with. Now the progression is muddied again with a Vet that will not be here next season.

[56mehl56]

15 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Agree completely but Geno is a youngster trying to prove himself and trying to get the stigma of the past off him.  So doing these things like Twitter (backhanded insults towards Jets FO) and Bleacher Report (self-promoting interview) in a calendar week when we are getting our asses handed to us by elite NFL teams is a sure ticket to continued exile.  If you want to be the quarterback, the team leader, you should be acting like one.

SAR I

Absolutely, Geno hasn't done himself any favors doing some of the things he's done. But again those would be tolerated if he played well - like Sanchez eating a hotdog on the sidelines.

[Warfish]

14 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

No but I feel he should have gotten a chance to start this season with the best offensive roster he's ever played with.

Do you have a time machine that we can use to go back in time and convince Jets Brass they're wrong, so Geno can "get his chance"?

14 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Everyone knew what Fitz would do this season

If by "everyone" you mean yourself and a group of ~10 Pro-Geno posters here on JN, then yes.

[SAR I]

6 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Absolutely, Geno hasn't done himself any favors doing some of the things he's done. But again those would be tolerated if he played well - like Sanchez eating a hotdog on the sidelines.

Since we're both being redundant at this point I'll add more redundancy just so that my point is not misunderstood:

Your point (Geno would be tolerated if he played well) makes a lot of sense but since he has never played well his antics won't be tolerated and actually are preventing him from being considered for starting time.

And why would he do this?  He wants to be cut, so he can wait in the wings for the next NFL team to lose its quarterback for the season so he can be the starter and rebuild his rep to score a multi-year contract.  Withholding the ability for Geno to market himself in NFL games is the punishment he gets for continuing to embarrass the organization.

SAR I

[win4ever]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

So speculate, what do you think the reason is then?

I think Bowles has a player's attitude, where he refuses to cross his veterans because he wants to come across as someone who doesn't panic in tough times.  This seems to be the case with the defense as well, since he refuses to change much, conveying confidence in a system that is clearly not going well.  On a positional basis, it's the wrong move to keep Fitz, but Bowles is going out of his way to remain stoic and in control, which may or may not do anything.  

 

[win4ever]

2 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

That is exactly the issue with Fitz, he's a one read QB who can usually pickup up mismatches pre snap but post snap if his first read is covered its a losing proposition more times than not. Geno is probably just the opposite , he has a harder time isolating pre snap mismatches but has more ability post snap to recover from it.

I would like to see what Geno could do in this offense, because the amount of talent surrounding Fitz is pretty ridiculous at this point.  It kind of reminds me of the Steelers when they had Bryant or the Broncos.  

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, win4ever said:

I think Bowles has a player's attitude, where he refuses to cross his veterans because he wants to come across as someone who doesn't panic in tough times.  This seems to be the case with the defense as well, since he refuses to change much, conveying confidence in a system that is clearly not going well.  On a positional basis, it's the wrong move to keep Fitz, but Bowles is going out of his way to remain stoic and in control, which may or may not do anything.  

An interesting theory.

You believe Bowles would rather be fired than be seen as a Coach who would bench an under-performing Veteran player for another Veteran player who is better?

[win4ever]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

An interesting theory.

You believe Bowles would rather be fired than be seen as a Coach who would bench an under-performing Veteran player for another Veteran player who is better?

He's not going to get fired, mainly because he had a successful season last year.  And everyone knew it was a tough match up to start this year.  

I think he would rather take a hit on his reputation with the fans, so he can retain the "I didn't panic in a bad situation" idea towards the Jets' brass.  Unfortunately, history is littered with success and failures on both sides of this argument.  I side with the make the change one because enough is enough with Fitz, but he hasn't.  It's surprising that he doesn't even question Fitz as the starter when he's been a horrible QB for us.  

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Agree completely but Geno is a youngster trying to prove himself and trying to get the stigma of the past off him.  So doing these things like Twitter (backhanded insults towards Jets FO) and Bleacher Report (self-promoting interview) in a calendar week when we are getting our asses handed to us by elite NFL teams is a sure ticket to continued exile.  If you want to be the quarterback, the team leader, you should be acting like one.

SAR I

Yep. Like I said in another post, he can do nothing but harm by being seen or heard off the practice field. All he can accomplish is - even if unintentional - directly badmouthing his teammate, or give obviously phony praise to the guy whose job he wants back. The other reason is because backup QBs aren't on the field struggling with the rest of the team, so it requires someone incredibly careful of what he does and says to pull off any comment (or good Lord, a freaking sad selfie) and he's anything but gifted in this regard.

[joewilly12]

3 minutes ago, win4ever said:

He's not going to get fired, mainly because he had a successful season last year.  And everyone knew it was a tough match up to start this year.  

I think he would rather take a hit on his reputation with the fans, so he can retain the "I didn't panic in a bad situation" idea towards the Jets' brass.  Unfortunately, history is littered with success and failures on both sides of this argument.  I side with the make the change one because enough is enough with Fitz, but he hasn't.  It's surprising that he doesn't even question Fitz as the starter when he's been a horrible QB for us.  

He had the easiest schedule in the NFL in 2015 he failed to make the playoffs thats not a successful season winning games against losing teams. 

Bowles is a stubborn fool who will go down with Fitzpatrick hopefully. 

We moved on from Pete Carroll in 1 year no reason we wont move on from Bowles in 2 

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The sad thing about this difference is at his worst Smith was never as bad as Hackenberg is right now.

This is an excellent way of describing our current predicament, as well as a good argument for never watching this team again.

[joewilly12]

Attention Todd Bowels you may be only person on this planet that has any confidence in Ryan Fitzpatrick he's done game over carer over. 

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Do you have a time machine that we can use to go back in time and convince Jets Brass they're wrong, so Geno can "get his chance"?

If by "everyone" you mean yourself and a group of ~10 Pro-Geno posters here on JN, then yes.

11 years of history is not enough evidence on Fitz  . In 11 years he's always struggled against better than average teams . Yet fans want to think this year would be different. And on the flipside after only 2 years one of which produced an 8-8 record 95% of fans and media were convinced Geno shouldn't be the starter.

[phill1c]

If the evaluation of Fitz's work on this thread

is any indication, Seattle did NOTHING that a 2nd, 3rd, 4th rate defense would do. Fitz was bad all on his own.

[drdetroit]

Bowles is starting Fitz all 16 games

[Mike135]

Damn, this really kinds sucks.  Not just another wasted season, but it's getting to the point where we may really have to replace the coach and/or GM.  Whoever is responsible for continuing to play Fitz.

Fitz went from a guy who exceeded the expectations of being a backup and allowed for some fun last season; to a guy potentially responsible for another massive rebuild.  Bench the POS.  

(POS is only appropriate because he held out for big money.  He brought it on himself.  As stated a ton, excluding his QB ability, I'm sure Fitz is a swell dude.)

[Charlie Brown]

5 hours ago, Maxman said:

Week one you miss easy kicks and lose. It happens, that isn't a coaching thing.

Last week (KC) I think the game plan on defense was good, bend but dont break. It addressed the big plays given up the first few weeks. But you turn the ball over 8 times and you will lose no matter what.

But last year half time adjustments seemed to be great. This year not so much. 

Coaching wise right now I am worried about:

• Them sticking too long with Fitz
• Covering tight ends scares me, they need to make changes there or Darron Lee has to improve in a hurry
• Secondary in general seems to definitely be suffering from communication issues. Gilchrist seems to be having a conversation after every big play with someone else with lots of hand gestures. So I don't know who is right, but they aren't on the same page often.

You are right IMO.  

People out here sen to forget that Bowles made excellent half time adjustments last year.  

The Jets seem to be sticking more to the original game plan an it's not working as well but the absolutely horrible secondary play has to be factored in.